Conservatives Express Hope That Their Attacks On Pelosi Will Quiet Calls For Truth Commission
Conservatives Express Hope That Their Attacks On Pelosi Will Quiet Calls For Truth Commission
For weeks, conservatives have been launching hypocritical and disingenuous attacks on House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) regarding her level of knowledge of the Bush administration’s torture program.
Fox News conservatives are revealing one of the underlying motives for these attacks — to diminish calls for a truth commission on torture. While interviewing Newt Gingrich, and later, Sen. Jon Kyl (R-AZ), Fox host Neil Cavuto wondered whether “both parties will cease and desist” from investigations:
Is it a potential Mexican standoff? And by that, I mean, Senator, that Democrats feel they have the goods on the prior administration to drag out hearings on what they knew about Iraq and when. Now Republicans have the goods, presumably, on Nancy Pelosi about what she knew about interrogation and when. So to avoid mutual self-destruction, both parties cease and desist.
Last night on Fox, Dick Cheney’s official biographer Stephen Hayes said, “Democrats who have been so enthusiastic about truth commissions have to be stopping and saying, OK, wait a second.” Mort Kondracke chimed in with some advice for the President: “I think Obama really has to get this stuff stopped.” Watch a compilation:
Pelosi has been clear that recent questions about her level of knowledge about Bush’s torture program only add more — not less — need for an investigation to take place. “Until a truth commission comes into being, I encourage the appropriate committees of the House to conduct vigorous oversight of these issues,” Pelosi said.
If conservatives were being honest about their criticisms, they’d be taking up Pelosi’s desire for a full investigation, an inquiry that would not only examine what members of Congress knew but also the prominent role Cheney played in authorizing illegal acts.
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I hope Democrats recognize that this is a big smokescreen and say, “fine, let’s investigate everybody and let the chips fall where they may.”
I don’t think Pelosi has the courage to take that stand, but maybe some of the Dems with integrity do.
May 16th, 2009 at 12:21 pmRiiigghht. Let us know how that works out for you.
As I’ve said before: war crimes were committed, everything about this needs to be investigated, and let the chips fall where they may.
May 16th, 2009 at 12:22 pmOh, ralph…great minds, huh?
May 16th, 2009 at 12:22 pmI don’t care what she knew or when she knew it, she’s not the one who broke the law.
May 16th, 2009 at 12:22 pmralph the wonder locust Says:
…let the chips fall where they may.
Jane E. Schneider Says:
…let the chips fall where they may
What, are you two playing strip poker together?
May 16th, 2009 at 12:24 pmMove along, people! Nothing to see here! Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!
Sorry, Pukes. That strategery is played out and it’s not going to work anymore.
May 16th, 2009 at 12:25 pmConservatives hope to diminish calls for a truth commission and in typical republican fashion end up selling the idea of a truth commission to the other 20% by calling for Pelosi’s investigation .
May 16th, 2009 at 12:25 pmHow shrewd .
The reason the right keeps bringing up what Pelosi knew and when she knew it is because they are trying to distract from the fact that the Bush Administration tortured people.
May 16th, 2009 at 12:26 pmThe effort to “investigate” prisoner torture has been underwhelming. It points toward a complicit Congress.
May 16th, 2009 at 12:28 pmI would think this Pelosi sideshow to distract from the degenerates who ordered torture would further prompt the calls for a truth commission.
May 16th, 2009 at 12:29 pmWhy do conservatives only want the “truth” when it might embarrass the Democrats? Will they ever act as Americans first?
May 16th, 2009 at 12:29 pmKeep up the bashing on Pelosi GOPs (Tea Bags). Please call for HER INVESTIGATION, pleaseeee. Then we can find out the true facts that the GOP members of congress knew about this all along, OK King, Newt, Blunt, et al.,
Let’s see your party (GOP) fall even faster. And to the corporate media, I know you guys don’t have a conscious like the GOP (your party of hate), but we do, and GOD does not ugly.
May 16th, 2009 at 12:30 pm….besides, it would have been against the law for Nancy to talk about that meeting to any one.
May 16th, 2009 at 12:31 pmI believe her; it’s the CIA’s mission to dupe and use dis-information….and Dick Cheney sure was hangin’ around there a lot (when he wasn’t shooting small birds).
Pelosi has been clear that recent questions about her level of knowledge about Bush’s torture program only add more — not less — need for an investigation to take place. “Until a truth commission comes into being, I encourage the appropriate committees of the House to conduct vigorous oversight of these issues,” Pelosi said.
Yep repukes, seems like she’s all for a coverup that’s what investigation is right
May 16th, 2009 at 12:31 pmAbso-frickin-lutely.
May 16th, 2009 at 12:32 pmNotice how our vigilant media is ignoring the Bob Graham statement which basically supports Pelosi’s assertion that the CIA misled Congress? Pelosi is a much easier target for the wingnuts and the compliant media to deal with. And so when Graham, former Chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, and who is well known for keeping meticulous notes on his daily activities, confirms Pelosi’s version of events, the media, like the spoiled children they are, stick their fingers in their ears and scream la, la, la, la, la, la, la!
Obviously the media elites are scared — for any rational review of the whole sordid episode would reveal that they, in essence, have been willing accessories to war crimes and they damn well know it.
Just saying . . .
May 16th, 2009 at 12:32 pmI would like to see Pelosi’s and the other congress people’s roll in this whole affair to be investigated as well as the administration. The fact that congress people may need to be investigated simply underscores the need for an independent commission. It is absurd to think a scandal that touches the CIA, Justice Department, Office of the President, Office of the Vice President, the Pentagon, AND Congress deserves anything less.
May 16th, 2009 at 12:33 pm….and Dick Cheney sure was hangin’ around there a lot (when he wasn’t shooting small birds).
And even bigger lawyers.
May 16th, 2009 at 12:33 pmPelosi needs to be investigated. She knew something, she’s getting tripped up in her own story.
Any person should be investigated that was involved, I don’t care if you have a (D) or a (R) in front of your name. If you knew and did nothing to stop it, you are guilty of participation.
May 16th, 2009 at 12:37 pmSorry teabagger repugs, we don’t care who’s mixed up in repugs’ dirt.
I’ve got your Mexican standoff right here. Let they trials commence.
May 16th, 2009 at 12:37 pmAs speaker of the house she has the power to call for a truth commission……….which she called for in her press conference.
May 16th, 2009 at 12:38 pmMore projection from the Republicans. What they sort of miss is even if they are correct that Pelosi was briefed, she didn’t do the deed. Last I checked the Speaker of the House was a member of the legislative branch and all these nifty policies originated in the executive branch.
And they are totally overlooking all of the calls coming from the left saying, go for it. There isn’t the blind ‘my party, right or wrong’ attitude here. There are some people who don’t think law books make a good substitute for toilet paper.
May 16th, 2009 at 12:38 pmReally, the GOP are trying to move the target…what a suprise. I spent part of today writing on the WH blog, reminding the President that we as a country need to deal with the Torture issue…and if there is mud that lands on a DEM, live with it. We need and want to get to the truth on this issue and only then will we allow it to move off the front page. I urge all others to do the same…blogging is no longer sufficient!
May 16th, 2009 at 12:39 pmYes, it’s just blowing smoke in everyone’s eyes. But when it clears, please keep focused on the question of WHO ordered torture and WHY: Cheney, to prove a non-existent link between Al Qaida and Iraq using techniques designed to evoke FALSE confessions! They waterboarded people in order to get them to LIE, not to, as even the OLC torture memos insisted, limit the technique to ‘imminent threats’.
May 16th, 2009 at 12:44 pmWhat in the repugs’ little mind can suggest that the dems/progressives/liberals wouldn’t side with justice?
Why would they even put it out there we would fold because a dem could be involved? What is wrong with these idiots?
May 16th, 2009 at 12:45 pmAll they have to do is check Bob Graham’s METICULOUS daily journals. They are neurotic as Hell, but they are the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth!
Let’s see, do we believe Nancy Pelosi and Bob Graham, or the CIA?
Is this a trick question???
May 16th, 2009 at 12:45 pmI don’t care if my MOM or my SON were involved!!! The people who did these crimes have to pay!!!
America is not the land of the Free because Politician can get away with anything they want! WE ARE A COUNTRY OF LAWS and those laws must be enforced!
To look forward we must learn the lessons from the past. The only lesson we will learn if there are no prosecutions is that once elected you can do what you want!
May 16th, 2009 at 12:45 pmi loved that line, used by boner and whoever-else, about not even imagining the CIA would lie to congress…
hoo-weee!!!
i’m drawing a blank with examples right now, but i know there are plenty!
May 16th, 2009 at 12:47 pmIn a perfect world, the #3 in line for the Presidency should have stood up on her hind legs and cried foul when #1 and #2 (appropriate designations in this case) espoused illegal actions. All the more reason for an independent investigation. If Nancy kept quiet when told of illegal activities she can have a cell right down the hall.
But complicity is a much lesser crime.
May 16th, 2009 at 12:48 pmWatch out for these possible right wing comebacks in defense of the Bush Administration’s use of torture:
1) They will say that if waterboarding produces false confessions, and KSM denied Iraq and al Qaeda were connected, then it must be false that they weren’t connected. Therefore it must be true that Iraq and al Qaeda were connected. So let the invasion we started the month before begin.
2) Torture saved lives. Plots were stopped because of what we learned from torture. And even if the so-called “plots” were nothing to be taken seriously, we still prevented those attacks from happening thanks to the use of torture (even though they probably weren’t going to happen anyway.)
3) Dick Cheney couldn’t have had the executive authority to authorize torture because he isn’t part of the Executive Branch, he’s part of the Legislative Branch. So if Dick Cheney authorized torture, then Congress authorized it, too.
I’m just speculating on what they might try to say next.
May 16th, 2009 at 12:49 pmAnybody else think CIA stands for Caught In the Act?
May 16th, 2009 at 12:50 pmThe republican’s thinking is: “Truth Commission? We don’t need no stinking Truth Commission. That’s what we’ve got Darth Cheney, Rush Limpballs and Little Seanie Vanity for. They will tell us everything we need to know.
“But while we’re waiting for that to sink in, we better trump up some phony issue and beat Nancy Pelosi to death with it just so that the real facts don’t come out.”
May 16th, 2009 at 12:52 pmOne key element of this whole kerfluffle is the opinion voiced by torture apologist John Yoo, who stated in a memo to William Haynes (link to PDF — page 13):
“Congress may no more regulate the President’s ability to detain and interrogate enemy combatants than it may regulate his ability to direct troop movements on the battlefield.”
So given that this is the administration’s legal opinion, perhaps one of the trolls or one of Faux’s pundits (same difference) can explain how a member of Congress can be tagged with any responsibility at all for authorizing torture?
May 16th, 2009 at 12:52 pmIf the conservatives think that publicly attacking Pelosi is going to make anyone reluctant to investigate, then they’re going to have to do something to shut Cheney up. The more he’s out there proudly admitting to torture, the more Americans will want to investigate.
May 16th, 2009 at 12:52 pmGo through with the investigations. I want justice against the people that pulled the trigger. Yes, the bystanders should also be investigated, but the criminal needs to be persecuted and bear the brunt of the punishment. The hell with even implying that those who were informed about the deed are to be punished on the same level as those who actually DID the deed!
May 16th, 2009 at 12:53 pmWayne, points 1 & 2 are ‘tortured’ but will probably fit into the Republican Tinkerbelle philosophy.
Point 3 should be a total nonentity because even though one of the duties of the VP is to preside over the Senate, his election was into the Executive.
In fact, about the only described duty of the VP is to preside over the Senate. Delving into national security policy is definitely not covered.
May 16th, 2009 at 12:56 pmAn interesting perspective from a writer named Gordon Duff writing for a publication called “Veterans Today“:
Interrogation used to be an art taught to the “best and brightest.” The CIA even has an interrogation manual called KUBARK, long on the internet (google it) showing how to classify “subjects” and get them to spill their guts. Most of the methods are psychological and those with the most to tell, respond to psychological ploys much better than being beaten.
Really tough people will lie to you for years. If nobody has noticed, we are fighting really tough people. Intelligence is only “timely” for 48 hours or as soon as your enemy knows you have someone who can put them in danger. They move, they hide, they cover their tracks. This game is 4000 years old and will never end.
We changed the rules. We didn’t torture to get intelligence. We had liars working for us. The truth was never the goal. We wanted an excuse to go to war, an excuse to arrest lots of people, guilty and innocent. We wanted lies to back up our mistakes, not “secret intelligence” to find “sleeper cells” or track down “evil Osama.”
Questions changed. No longer did we ask: “Where is you leader hiding?” We now asked: “Sign this confession saying all these people did these things, true or not, had these weapons or not, and we will stop what we are doing to you.” “If you don’t agree to lie, we will torture you.”
We stopped being America and we became North Korea.
May 16th, 2009 at 12:56 pmNice point in 33, ralph. Just how many more petards are there?
May 16th, 2009 at 12:57 pmI’m not surprised that 99.9% of you here don’t get it.
The entire point of all this is that despite the squealing from apologists on the left it is HYPOCRITICAL for the Democrats, Ms. Pelosi chief among them, to cry foul NOW over the enhanced interrogation program when THEY SAID NOTHING and indeed asked if the CIA needed MORE RESOURCES to conduct it back then!!!
May 16th, 2009 at 12:59 pmralph the wonder locust Says:
One key element of this whole kerfluffle is the opinion voiced by torture apologist John Yoo, who stated in a memo to William Haynes (link to PDF — page 13):
“Congress may no more regulate the President’s ability to detain and interrogate enemy combatants than it may regulate his ability to direct troop movements on the battlefield.”
John Yoo would be wrong. The Congress can tell the president that he can’t send troops over one nation’s borders into another nation. Therefore, the Congress can “regulate his ability to direct troop movements on the battlefield.” So the Congress can “regulate the President’s ability to detain and interrogate enemy combatants.” Not to mention the international treaties we signed that “regulate the President’s ability to detain and interrogate enemy combatants.”
I thought lawyers were supposed to respect the law. John Yoo should not be allowed to practice law.
May 16th, 2009 at 12:59 pmIf Ms. Pelosi is so intent on a “truth commission” then she will find herself on the RECEIVING END.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:00 pmI think that they may just get the opposite effect. You bite Nancy Pelosi and she bites back. The fact that she has asked the CIA to release the transcripts of her briefing tells me that she is not lying to us.
By trying to shift the focus to Nancy Pelosi, they are keeping the subject of torture in the forefront and more and more people are asking for investigations.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:01 pmFurther, anyone who calls for the prosecution of the last administration MUST apply the SAME STANDARD to members of Congress who went along with the program.
To do anything else is the height of hypocrisy.
Ms. Pelosi knows she’s screwed otherwise why would she lie through her teeth to deny knowledge? SHE KNOWS she is culpable.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:03 pmWhat these republicans don’t understand is we don really care wethere or no Nancy Pelosi was in on it. Everyone who broke the law should go to jail.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:04 pmThen so be it, Tim. I want people to be held responsible, regardless of party affiliation. But I want the heads to roll from the responsible parties. If Pelosi is to go down, so must her bosses.
Don’t think we won’t be outraged if there is a (D) or an (I) instead of an (R). The investigation must be done, and the advocates for torture must be held responsible.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:04 pmTimmeh, given that chief torture apologist John Yoo has stated that,
“Congress may no more regulate the President’s ability to detain and interrogate enemy combatants than it may regulate his ability to direct troop movements on the battlefield.”
how is it “HYPOCRITICAL” (all caps yours) for Democrats to call for investigations into possible war crimes committed by the leaders of this nation?
Democrats in Congress had no ability to regulate the President’s policies in this regard, according to chief torture apologist John Yoo. Anything they were told in briefings was classified, so they were unable to discuss it publicly as long as it remained classified.
I think you’re the one who doesn’t “get it” Timmeh.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:05 pmBilbo,
C’mon! Do you think that Leon Panetta is lying?
May 16th, 2009 at 1:05 pmTim, perhaps you haven’t noticed that most of us are all for investigations even if some Dems, including Pelosi, are on the ‘receiving end.’
WAR CRIMES WERE COMMITTED. EVERYONE INVOLVED SHOULD BE INVESTIGATED! WHAT PART OF THIS DON’T YOU GET?!
May 16th, 2009 at 1:06 pmGOOD.
Bring it on.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:06 pmUt oh…did the repugs just walk their stupidasses into a commission?
HAHAHAHAHA
May 16th, 2009 at 1:06 pmYou folks are crying foul now that Republicans are using the SAME TACTICS the left has used for decades!
hahahahahahahahaha
May 16th, 2009 at 1:06 pmThe cia won’t ever lie to congress, they will lie to y’all but never to us.
That shit was too fun-nee.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:07 pmThe last presidential campaign revealed what brilliant strategists the republicans are! This is not about what Democrats want. This is about what is the right thing to do! I agree with Ralph and Jane, let the chips fall where they may!
Release the hounds!
May 16th, 2009 at 1:07 pmHoodathunktick Says:
In a perfect world, the #3 in line for the Presidency should have stood up on her hind legs and cried foul when #1 and #2 (appropriate designations in this case) espoused illegal actions. All the more reason for an independent investigation. If Nancy kept quiet when told of illegal activities she can have a cell right down the hall.
And what crime did Pelosi commit if she was actually told that they were conducting illegal torture? The crime would have been if she had blown the whistle on them since the briefing was classified. It is against the law to reveal classified information.
I don’t believe that Pelosi was told that they were currently torturing prisoners. If that was true, she would not be asking to have the transcripts of her briefing released.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:08 pmThe whole truth commission thing sounds pret-ty serious.
‘Yes, my truth commission brothers and sisters, we have found widespread abuse of power and acts of torture.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:08 pmThey’ve said that they won’t do it again, now let’s move on.’
Shut UP Tim.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:08 pmJane,
Well whether “war crimes” were committed is just a matter of opinion at this point.
The point I’m making is that no one here should be taking the Republicans to task for pointing out the blatant hypocrisy of Ms. Pelosi.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:08 pmTim Vaculik Says:
You folks are crying foul now that Republicans are using the SAME TACTICS the left has used for decades!
Please show where anyone is “crying foul”. I think most of us are happy to have the Republicans trying to blame Pelosi. Because in the process, they will be blamed since they are the ones who ordered the torture.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:09 pmTim, you’re a freakin’ ignorant idiot.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:09 pm#41 Tim ,
May 16th, 2009 at 1:09 pmyour not trying to warn Nancy off for her own good ……..are you ?
Sounds like your her defence attorney .
Who’d a figured you’d go all warm and fuzzy on democrats ?
When is MSNBC going to get rid of Joe Scarborough? Do we have to start a campaign to get rid of him? We need MSNBC to be MSNBC all day and have a progressive voice driving the discussion.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:10 pmTim Vaculik Says:
Jane,
Well whether “war crimes” were committed is just a matter of opinion at this point.
No it is not a “matter of opinion”. Torture is illegal under the Geneva Conventions we signed and the UN treaty against torture which we also signed. A couple of third rate lawyers writing opinions based on nothing but opinion does not make torture legal.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:11 pmTim Vaculik Says:
C’mon! Do you think that Leon Panetta is lying?
Leon is smart enough to keep his members pacified.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:11 pmUt oh, the trolls are smirking because an investigation might include Dems and the folks here are saying ok.
‘Who knows what evil may lurk in the hearts of men?’
Most of America and they are tired of the politicians saying it can’t be brought out.
Sorry, trolls.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:11 pmI’m fine with that. Most people here are fine with that. The one sticking point is that I suspect your interpretation of “went along” is going to be a twisted one.
I don’t really think it reaches the “height” of hypocrisy, but we understand you have trouble making your arguments without resorting to overheated hyperbole.
Culpable for WHAT exactly?
If there were war crimes committed, then Speaker Pelosi’s participation in them is limited to the role of a minor accessory at best. And your folks better really watch their a$$es if Nancy Pelosi goes down for something the White House conceived, authorized, executed and justified.
You seem to think we care whether Nancy Pelosi skates on anything criminal she’s done. We would rather see her punished if she did something wrong. The thing is, you guys can’t really point to anything she’s done wrong, other than possibly be told of war crimes THE ADMINISTRATION was committing.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:12 pmFox host Neil Cavuto wondered whether “both parties will cease and desist” from investigations:
“Is it a potential Mexican standoff?”
Perhaps not a workable analogy anymore.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:13 pmIn today’s version of the Mexican standoff, everyone ends up dead.
Tim Vaculik Says:
C’mon! Do you think that Leon Panetta is lying?
Yes? Or does covering his agency’s sorry butt sound better?
May 16th, 2009 at 1:13 pmExample please.
Or, alternatively, STFU.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:13 pmtonyrich300 Says:
When is MSNBC going to get rid of Joe Scarborough? Do we have to start a campaign to get rid of him? We need MSNBC to be MSNBC all day and have a progressive voice driving the discussion.
I have no big qualms against Java Joe as long as he has Lawrence O’Donnell on the show ready to rip his opinion to shreds.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:13 pmTim Vaculik Says:
Bilbo,
C’mon! Do you think that Leon Panetta is lying?
I don’t know if he is lying or equivocating. If he thinks that they actually briefed Pelosi as the right is saying, then Panetta needs to release the transcripts of the briefing. He is strangely reluctant to do so. I wonder why that is.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:13 pmGame of Life Says:
The cia won’t ever lie to congress, they will lie to y’all but never to us.
That shit was too fun-nee.
And the kicker…this congressthing said they KNOW they would cut off their funding, quick…their funding…like the cia isn’t eye deep in drugs. CAN YOU BELIEVE IT!
May 16th, 2009 at 1:14 pmMs. Pelosi knows she’s screwed otherwise why would she lie through her teeth to deny knowledge? SHE KNOWS she is culpable.
Since when does the Speaker of the House have any authority to tell the President what to do? If she made a mistake it was not making public the war crime policies and she should answer for that.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:15 pmTim Vaculik Says:
Bilbo,
C’mon! Do you think that Leon Panetta is lying?
May 16th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
No, Tim, because Leon Panetta wasn’t Director of the CIA at the time. No one is saying that Panetta lied. What we’re saying is that the CIA’s records of the briefings are filled with lies, and Panetta was simply repeating them.
BTW, it is absolutely wrong that “whether “war crimes” were committed is just a matter of opinion at this point.” Waterboarding is torture and torture is a war crime and Cheney has admitted that they waterboarded. It’s not an opinion that war crimes were committed. It’s a fact.
Tim, you are welcome to read my lengthy comments on this subject at the link in my comment #8.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:15 pmHoodathunktick Says:
Ut oh, the trolls are smirking because an investigation might include Dems and the folks here are saying ok.
‘Who knows what evil may lurk in the hearts of men?’
Most of America and they are tired of the politicians saying it can’t be brought out.
Sorry, trolls.
Right now, the best thing they have going for them is “guilt” by association.
Pelosi is a Democrat.
We elected Obama, a Democrat, for the head position.
Progressives are mostly Democrats.
Therefore, if Democrats are found guilty of anything in this commission, we are guilty by association.
The Republicans are basically trying to throw Democrats under the bus, but how can you do that when you’re already under the bus?
May 16th, 2009 at 1:16 pmTim Vaculik Says:
Ms. Pelosi knows she’s screwed otherwise why would she lie through her teeth to deny knowledge? SHE KNOWS she is culpable.
If Nancy Pelosi knew that Bush was torturing prisoners (and that’s still a “if” at this point), what law did she break by not revealing what she was told in a classified briefing?
May 16th, 2009 at 1:16 pmWell whether “war crimes” were committed is just a matter of opinion at this point.
And more people are of the opinion that war crimes WERE committed than not. No amount of ‘look over there!’ tactics is going to change that.
If this whole thing was flipped and it was the Dems wanting and authorizing torture, would you still be saying that it’s ‘just a matter of opinion’ that war crimes were committed?
May 16th, 2009 at 1:17 pmIt is obvious the trolls do not read at all.
pathetic
May 16th, 2009 at 1:17 pmThing is, Hoodthunk, she wasn’t even Speaker at the time of the briefing in question. In September 2002 Nancy Pelosi wasn’t even the Minority Leader. She was simply the ranking minority member on the House Intelligence Committee.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:17 pmFor those of us who were keeping score and paying attention, we knew that they were ramming intelligence down the throats of democrats back in those days. They had an arrogant attitude and anyone who stood up to them, was chastised as unpatriotic. There is no written proof that the minority leader was told the truth. There is evidence that Senator Bob Graham got conflicting information on the same and was able to verify it. If they were using torture, they broke the law and anyone, regardless of party affiliation is guilty, they should be revealed to the public.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:17 pmOn the subject of torture, please read this article:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/greg-mitchell/mother-of-us-marine-water_b_203902.html
This mother’s letter should be broadcast on all MSM, but it won’t because it shames the right.
I’m surprised that TP didn’t put up a thread on this subject.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:21 pmtonyrich300 Says:
When is MSNBC going to get rid of Joe Scarborough?
Yes, yes, yes! He has that now-familiar reptilian brain. He’s a waste of air time. If you start a petition, count me in! Where do I sign?
May 16th, 2009 at 1:22 pmralph the wonder locust Says: Thing is, Hoodthunk, she wasn’t even Speaker at the time of the briefing in question. In September 2002 Nancy Pelosi wasn’t even the Minority Leader. She was simply the ranking minority member on the House Intelligence Committee.
True, Ralph. I’m thinking about what she could/should have done when she did get to be Speaker.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:28 pmMaybe he’s BEING LIED TO! Idiot.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:29 pmCan you imagine all the bs one must wade in? For one thing it was a rubberstamp congress and a crooked admin, wars, kangaroo trials, rapes, blackwater, more bs, Falluah, Iran, Israel, tons more of oil grabbing, killings, Syria and Israel’s bullying…
repugs are in the stupid again.
Thank God Rachael said a Congressman keep very good notes, excellent notes about his going ons in his daily life.
the cia is lying…think ollie north.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:30 pmRepublicans may be trying to insulate themselves or they believe that it will do more harm than good to expose the torture/interrogation issues. (probably both).
with Pelosi, there seems to be at least three possible outcomes.
First, she may be able to either produce information that vindicates her (or at least finds a better explanation for what occurred).
Secondly, Democrats could dismiss her complicity (yielding credibility to the idea that it wasn’t just Republicans that supported torture and enhanced interrogation).
Finally, Democrats could call her to account and pressure her to step aside in order to maintain the moral high ground and continue the narrative that the GOP is the party of torture. (and hope that Pelosi’s complicity is basically a lone exception).
I do think that idea of Democrats presenting a unified opposition to the CIA would be a mistake.
Although, I don’t fault her for her complicity (the atmosphere was more uncertain in the aftermath of 9/11), it might benefit the Democrat party for Pelosi to step down, in lieu of information that could better explain her silence.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:31 pmIf the Republicans want to try and spread the blame, fine. I encourage it. I would love to see an investigation into what did happen and just how many MOC’s knew about these war crimes and when and DID NOTHING ABOUT IT!
If we have elected representatives in Congress who knew anything about these heinous acts and kept quiet, get their butts out now. Democrat, Republican, one-eyed Episcopalian kangaroo, I don’t care.
Anyone care to bet which party loses more seats?
May 16th, 2009 at 1:33 pmCIA lying?
Are we talking about the same agency that (1) claimed it was a “slam-dunk” that Saddam had WMD in 2002; (2) destroyed all those interrogation tapes; and (3) quickly pulled its head into its shell when the Abu Graib pictures hit the media?
That’s the agency we’re talking about? They lied? Oh, come now. That seems a little over the top, doesn’t it?
May 16th, 2009 at 1:35 pmHere’s yet another tatic by the opposition to frame the issue around another issue other than torture.
Others Knew About It
|—————–|
| Torture |
|—————–|
We need to keep the issue framed around these:
A War Crime
|—————–|
| Torture |
|—————–|
Inhumane
|—————–|
| Torture |
|—————–|
Not Effective
|—————–|
| Torture |
|—————–|
Not Efficient
|—————–|
| Torture |
|—————–|
Makes Us Less Safe
|—————–|
| Torture |
|—————–|
Terrorist Recruiting Tool
May 16th, 2009 at 1:35 pm|—————–|
| Torture |
|—————–|
Aren’t they for all intents and purposes trying to blackmail her into quashing the investigation? Isn’t blackmail illegal? Aren’t they basically confessing by saying maybe this will keep Democrats quiet.
I don’t care if Pelosi goes down or not, she should have had impeachment on the table a long time ago. But it makes you wonder, if they can trump up all these charges now while Obama is President, what kind of deeds were they threatening her with when they were in power and doing all that illegal wiretapping. How hard would it have been for them to falsify anything they wanted? Makes you wonder if they didn’t trump up charges against Blagojevich to make sure a competent person wasn’t put in Obama’s senate seat. Look at what they’re doing to Franken.
We need to take our country back. Any one politician should not be willing to sacrifice the country for their own career.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:35 pmtimmy save some of the stupid for limpydic.
Stop hogging all the stupid.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:37 pmbackup, what the administration briefed a minority member of Congress on is hardly grounds for assuming she should step down. Not when there is no accountability for those who did the briefing.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:37 pmPurple State Says: “The Republicans are basically trying to throw Democrats under the bus, but how can you do that when you’re already under the bus?”
They best they can do is wildly grope with the one arm still sticking out from underneath.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:40 pmb-cup, please explain just what you see as “complicity” from a minority member of Congress receiving a classified briefing on administration policy?
And why is Nancy Pelosi’s “complicity” an issue when there were several other members of Congress present, at least half of them Republicans? Why is no one talking about the “complicity” of Pat Roberts or Porter Goss?
May 16th, 2009 at 1:40 pmCall their bluff.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:40 pmWay to honor the troops you worthless piece of pond scum. Eat sh#t and die.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:42 pmProud Says: “…Just because this mommas boy couldn’t handle SERE training….”
And how did you fare?
May 16th, 2009 at 1:42 pm“…this mommas boy couldn’t handle SERE training…”
So, Proud, what’s Sean Hannity’s excuse for not getting waterboarded for charity?
May 16th, 2009 at 1:43 pmProud says: Just because this mommas boy couldn’t handle SERE training.
A pitiful response, Proud. Proclaiming because a member of our military can’t or doesn’t withstand torture tactics he is a mamma’s boy? Training designed to help the members of our military to understand and withstand horrific treatment by our enemies when we are trying to sell to the world that we have the right to use the same tactics?
Lame, weak and pitiful.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:43 pmWay to “support the troops”, Prod.
You and Limbo, always ready to spot “phony soldiers”, eh?
May 16th, 2009 at 1:43 pmShayne, tell us how you really feel about Proud. Don’t hold back, now! ;)
May 16th, 2009 at 1:43 pmI hope that most people can see this attack on Pelosi as the smokescreen it is. Had she been aggressive in calling Bush a liar, she would have been indicted for high crimes.
As for the truth commission – the only way we are going to begin to find out what happened is with a non-partisan commission, despite the varied reputation of such committees.
Nonetheless, the decisions were made by Bush&Co, the policies were those of Bush&Co, the resultant damage belongs to Bush&Co.
If we ever expect to regain our footing again, we must investigate this, call in everyone involved as a witness under oath, and see where it goes.
That repugs are trying to quash such a commission is telling in itself that they don’t want to see what really happened.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:46 pmYeah, I’m with Doodlebug Shayne, and not just any pond either, but sewage treatment pond scum!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
May 16th, 2009 at 1:46 pmStill waiting for the braindead Publicans to explain what happens when a member of congress discloses classified information given to them. Looks like she would have been damned either way, if she spoke up or if she didn’t. We’re dealing with a level of corruption not previously seen. I think we need to start digging up everything on Pappy Bush and the assasination of JFK and look at all the links between him and the CIA. It’s time to restart this country. And maybe really follow the rules in the Constitution.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:47 pmIt is great to hear the GOPiggies are calling to knock off Pelosi for her knowledge about the “enhanced interrogation program”
If Pelosi is indicted along with the Chimperor, the Dick, Dumbsfelt, Rabies, Gonzolo, Condy, and every other torture apologist,
SO BE IT.
If there were nothing wrong with torture, er… the “enhanced interrogation program” you wouldn’t be calling for Pelosi’s prosecution. Would you? hypocrite trolls.
Prosecute Pelosi, save the Chimperor and the New-Clown pussies because the “enhanced interrogation program” is not torture.
By the way, when is that POS Hannity participating in “enhanced interrogation” for charity?
May 16th, 2009 at 1:47 pmProud Says:
Are you serious posting this Huffpo trash from some code pink whacko. If the letter was true they should have no problem giving their name. Just because this mommas boy couldn’t handle SERE training.
And where in this article does it identify the mother as being involved with Code Pink? As to why the mother didn’t disclose her name, I wouldn’t either. No one in their right mind would want to expose themselves to the Republican slime machine.
As far as not being able to handle SERE training, when are you going to volunteer to be waterboarded? What? You’re not? Coward.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:50 pmThat repugs are trying to quash such a commission is telling in itself that they don’t want to see what really happened.
They aren’t so much trying to quash the investigation as say they aren’t the only culprits. They are calling up their fear meme believing that once the Dems or America knows just how deep this crap goes it will all go away.
They still believe America buys their fear talk.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:50 pmOh, no, Marie… you’ve been misinformed. See… BushCo came to Nancy Pelosi with a plan to simply interrogate detainees, and the ranking minority member of the House Intelligence Committee forced the administration to adopt torture as a means of extracting information on ticking time-bombs.
So, really… the Right is saying that Nancy Pelosi is responsible for keeping America safe for the past eight years. Who would have thought?
May 16th, 2009 at 1:51 pmralph and hoodathunk. She was obviously not the only one.
The problem is that she is now speaker. And has been a staunch opponent of waterboarding and enhanced interrogation.
Because she is now the Democrat leader in the House and because she has been so aggressively opposed to the use of waterboarding and torture, the idea that she was briefed or had the knowledge that the administration was either using (or was considering using) waterboarding and said nothing, is at the least, hypocritical.
I don’t believe what Pelosi did was really that significant. But, it’s the confluence of her position in a party that wants contrast on the issue of torture and her vocal opposition to the techniques that is causing her the problem.
Democrats can rally around her, but it will weaken the differentiation with Republicans, they have worked hard to achieve.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:52 pmjohnny dol1ar Says:
If Pelosi is indicted along with the Chimperor, the Dick, Dumbsfelt, Rabies, Gonzolo, Condy, and every other torture apologist, SO BE IT.
If Pelosi would be indicted for knowing about torture and not revealing it, then the Republican members who were briefed on torture will also have to be indicted.
I wonder why the Democrats are not identifying the Republicans who were briefed and pointing a finger at them.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:52 pmDoodlebug Shayne Says: It’s time to restart this country. And maybe really follow the rules in the Constitution.
We be getting closer every day. And every day the Republicans are crying in fear because of it. Some of the Dems are getting nervous as well.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:53 pmbackup, just where do you see this ‘rallying behind the Speaker’ movement? Other than when she says release the documents?
May 16th, 2009 at 1:54 pmb-cup, I see you’re still operating under the old playbook. I’m a little disappointed. Not surprised, but disappointed.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:54 pmFormer Sen. Graham has a borderline obsessive/compulsive disorder, keeping meticulous notes on his daily life (from which tie he wore, what he ate for breakfast, and what meetings he had and with whom.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:54 pmHis enormous pile of notebooks revealed that Pelosi is telling the truth.
Would I tend to believe a person with OCD over the CIA? Yes.
Particularly since the CIA has less than a stellar record. (Tenet received the medal of freedom for his deception.)
Panetta is obligated to defend the CIA and to try to restore the morale of its personnel – I expect he would deny Pelosi’s accusations.
The real criminals are Cheney, Addington and the implanted lawyers who wrote memos and interpreted laws as they were ordered rather than on justice and the Constitution. Bush was brought on board, but he is too ignorant of the law, too uninterested in history, and too arrogant. He was the spoiled brat-president who was heady with the power.
None of us should call these traitors, and that includes idiots like Proud who defend them Republicans any more. They have absolutely no resemblance to Abraham Lincoln on his worst day.
As far as I’m concerned all these apologists who would defend these criminals and sacrifice the country for their own power should be tried with the torturers. They’re all co-conspirators. Innocent people are dead and lives are ruined. It’s not OK that some innocents died because they were brown people.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:55 pmbackup Says:
Although, I don’t fault her for her complicity (the atmosphere was more uncertain in the aftermath of 9/11), it might benefit the Democrat party for Pelosi to step down, in lieu of information that could better explain her silence.
___________
Interesting choice of words by sippycup here…
http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/complicity
complicity
Main Entry: com·plic·i·ty
Pronunciation: \k?m-?pli-s(?-)t?\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural com·plic·i·ties
Date: circa 1656
1 : association or participation in or as if in a wrongful act
____________
He really seems to want to use that word – complicity – ever so badly BAD, and couple it to “Pelosi”, period.
But isn’t that as much as admitting a crime WAS committed?
If Pelosi should be pushed aside, what are we to do w/ the whole Bush Cabal, who apparently thought torture was just peachy, especially when it came to beating answers out of people that would have vindicated claims of an Iraq-al Qaeda connection that never really existed?
Good for the goose, good for the gander, b-cup?
Or is what really gives you such a pleasant tingling sensation in your trousers the mere thought of declaring Pelosi guilty of something… BUT… not applying the same standard to Bush, et al?
May 16th, 2009 at 1:56 pmbackup Says:
ralph and hoodathunk. She was obviously not the only one.
The problem is that she is now speaker. And has been a staunch opponent of waterboarding and enhanced interrogation.
Because she is now the Democratic leader in the House and because she has been so aggressively opposed to the use of waterboarding and torture, the idea that she was briefed or had the knowledge that the administration was either using (or was considering using) waterboarding and said nothing, is at the least, hypocritical.
And what would have happened if she had blown the whistle on the Bush Crime Family? The first thing that would have happened is that she would have been called a liar. It would have been her word against theirs since she was not allowed to take notes or record the briefing. At that time, the US public was still believing the lies that they were being told. The second thing that would have happened is that she would have been prosecuted for leaking classified information. And in the end, the Bush Crime Family would have continued to torture.
If it was me, I would have blown the whistle and if it resulted in me losing my seat in Congress, so be it. But, then, I never would be a politician in the first place so it’s a moot question.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:56 pmSO BE IT.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:56 pmIt’s a fair question, but I hope the answer is because Democrats recognize that Congresspeople getting briefed on a classified program are not executors of that program. In other words, they’re fairly irrelevant. Nancy Pelosi is no more relevant to the torture program than is Pat Roberts. And anyone who claims that Pat Roberts should take the fall for the Bush Torture Program is an idiot.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:57 pmBECAUSE THE CORPORATE MEDIA WON’T LET THEM ON TELEVISION!!!!!!
May 16th, 2009 at 1:58 pmdamn straight turd outed Plame. These crooks have many tentacles and are long reaching.
I forgot about the wiretapping…
they were engaging the 20%ers in flag lapel pins silliness while they were torturing.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:59 pmbackup Says: “Because she is now the Democrat leader in the House and because she has been so aggressively opposed to the use of waterboarding and torture, the idea that she was briefed or had the knowledge that the administration was either using (or was considering using) waterboarding and said nothing, is at the least, hypocritical.
You have laid it out so well, chronologically speaking, cap’n, that I simply had to highlight the past and present tenses.
No one has been told the truth about the interrogation techniques of Bush/Cheney’s war on terror, from the very beginning. Some were told more than others, but all were lied to, including perhaps Pelosi and many others in Congress as well. To single her out now simply because she has attained a leadership role is cowardly and craven.
You can scarcely call Pelosi hypocritical when, having been told what might be going on, she speaks out against it.
May 16th, 2009 at 2:00 pmI only wish their hopes were in vain.
As most of you probably know, a certain number of people on the left start foaming at the mouth when they talk about Nancy Pelosi.
These nice people have been only too happy to help the right in its efforts–even with such a lamessed ploy as this one.
So much for the theory that progressives are smart.
And the 9/11 Truth Movment folks are always happy spread any smear against Democrats that comes along.
May 16th, 2009 at 2:01 pmbackup Says:
Because she is now the Democrat leader in the House and because she has been so aggressively opposed to the use of waterboarding and torture, the idea that she was briefed or had the knowledge that the administration was either using (or was considering using) waterboarding and said nothing, is at the least, hypocritical.
_____________
What was she supposed to do, huckleberry… come out publicly against it at the time and be accused of being a traitor?
It’s AMAZING how loony righties are presently screaming that… BUT… have no problem w/ what Bush, et al did.
I don’t believe what Pelosi did was really that significant. But, it’s the confluence of her position in a party that wants contrast on the issue of torture and her vocal opposition to the techniques that is causing her the problem.
Funny… she didn’t order the torture. She didn’t have lawyers write up truly spurious justifications for it. She didn’t destroy the evidence.
BUT… she’s now the Guilty One… the Traitor… the One who Needs To Be Pushed Aside!!!!
And what shall we do w/ all the members of the Bush Admin who were directly involved?
Give them all medals, a nice little pat on the tushy, and a “Well Done, Soldier”???
May 16th, 2009 at 2:05 pmi’ve, we’ve, known all along that there’d been some serious blackmailing going on… between the illegal phone taps, the threat of more poisonings, the selected few brought in to hear the ‘briefings’ – all an extreme game of power grab, and money grab…
so very rovian…
(how close were cheeeney and that attwater guy…?)
thinking about it all, it’s no wonder nancy is still ALIVE…
all those plane trips ‘n’all… she did what she could do to get the help needed… i thank her for that…
i just hafta keep thinking, hoping, that it’s working out…
nancy & co are fighting the evil empire, after all…
May 16th, 2009 at 2:05 pm…
If she was lucky, more likely she’d have ended up hanging from a rope like the DC Madame or Bruce Ivins, the alleged anthrax terrorist. I wonder how Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi died?
Link
May 16th, 2009 at 2:05 pm
You know what trolls, you really do not want to ph uck with us now.
May 16th, 2009 at 2:06 pmjeez… i wrote that, started it, back at 62ish… ha!
May 16th, 2009 at 2:06 pmb-cup, I did hold a higher opinion of you than you seem to deserve these days. I mean, we expect trolls, Limbaugh and Republican Congresspeople to use “Democrat” as an adjective, but I thought you were at least capable of more than that.
May 16th, 2009 at 2:07 pmI don’t care if some Democrats have to fall on their swords to fix this. It’s less than other Americans have done for this country.
May 16th, 2009 at 2:07 pmToo much? … snort …
May 16th, 2009 at 2:09 pm# 111 Bilbo Hussein Baggins
Exactly.
# 121 Doodlebug Shayne
Maybe you guys can remember some more examples but just by memory, Billdo, KKKlownnity, Baboon Beck, Limpo, and Dr. Weiners think waterboarding is NOT TORTURE.
But when Nancy Pelosi is involved, then IT IS TORTURE.
Can we make a list of the GOPiggies torture apologists?
I will add Kristol and Krauthammer to the list.
Your turn, guys.
May 16th, 2009 at 2:10 pmWe really do have a blind spot here in America. We believe the rest of the world can’t see our hypocrisy. Our arrogance tells us that no one else can see that what we do is totally opposed to what we say.
What we don’t see is they are either laughing at us or shaking their collective heads.
May 16th, 2009 at 2:11 pmI believe Pelosi and Graham. Why would Pelosi call for an investigation if she had anything to hide? If the CIA was taking orders from Cheney, then they lied. Rethuglicans are trying to take the focus off Bush & Cheney – the two chief orchestrators for torture.
May 16th, 2009 at 2:12 pmEVERYBODY, with an R after their name except John McCain. Don’t forget to put all the trolls on the list.
May 16th, 2009 at 2:13 pmThe rest of the world thinks were all stupid because we did nothing about what was done to us and our country. We’re like a punchline in a blond joke.
May 16th, 2009 at 2:13 pmralph. that was not intentional. my bad.
democratic party.
May 16th, 2009 at 2:15 pmBilbo Hussein Baggins Says:
If Pelosi would be indicted for knowing about torture and not revealing it, then the Republican members who were briefed on torture will also have to be indicted.
Would that include McCain?
After George Bush’s Rose Garden hissy fit, in which he declared that he would simply stop interrogating suspected terrorists unless he could torture them, John “I Only Flip-Flop On Matters of Deep Principle” McCain and the other so-called “Senate rebels” have capitulated to the unpopular president’s petulant demands.
In the universe of moral perversion in which we now live, White House National Security (sic) Adviser Stephen Hadley called the pro-torture, anti-due process agreement between these deeply cynical power-gamesters “a good day for the American people.”
May 16th, 2009 at 2:21 pmWhy didn’t the Bush administration consult Congress before torturing people?
May 16th, 2009 at 2:21 pmb-cup, I trust that it was not intentional. But that is just as disturbing; it indicates that you’ve internalized an immeasurably petty right-wing jibe and don’t even notice it creeping into your regular communication.
May 16th, 2009 at 2:22 pmralph. come on. really that big a deal?
May 16th, 2009 at 2:24 pmInstead of focusing on the degenerates who wrote opinions undermining torture laws and those who authorized torture, we’re here focusing on this sideshow with Pelosi.
May 16th, 2009 at 2:24 pmPerry logan Says:
I only wish their hopes were in vain.
As most of you probably know, a certain number of people on the left start foaming at the mouth when they talk about Nancy Pelosi.
These nice people have been only too happy to help the right in its efforts–even with such a lamessed ploy as this one.
So much for the theory that progressives are smart.
And the 9/11 Truth Movment folks are always happy spread any smear against Democrats that comes along.
Nancy deserves to be vetted all over again. She took impeachment off the table knowing damn well we wanted the proceedings to begin. She never gave a viable explanation of why queen nancy took impeachment off the table.
May 16th, 2009 at 2:25 pmShayne, I posted that before seeing your post at #136.
That link is from September 2006
May 16th, 2009 at 2:25 pmb-cup, yeah, it’s a big deal when you guys adopt a grammar mistake as a petty way to needle the other party, and then, when it’s pointed out to you, pretend that it’s a flaw of the other for pointing it out.
It makes you sound stupid. But the thing is, conservatives seem to revel in their stupidity. At least the anti-intellectual ones do.
May 16th, 2009 at 2:28 pmNat Says:
Instead of focusing on the degenerates who wrote opinions undermining torture laws and those who authorized torture, we’re here focusing on this sideshow with Pelosi.
______________
Totally and completely.
May 16th, 2009 at 2:28 pmHere’s what Pelosi could say:
May 16th, 2009 at 2:31 pm
I must admit I find all these calls for Pelosi to step down amusing.
The faux moral outrage has become absurd.
May 16th, 2009 at 2:32 pmralph the wonder locust Says:
… it indicates that you’ve internalized an immeasurably petty right-wing jibe and don’t even notice it creeping into your regular communication.
_____________
Well, in all honesty ralphie… I have been known to call Republicans GOOPers… and more’n once too…
Along w/ Wankers…
Mouth breathers…
Pants wetters…
Fudge packers…
S&M freaks who get raging chubbies at the mere thought of torturing a defenseless human being…
Heh… my bad…
I hereby promise to NEVER call Republicans any of the above again…
Unless a troll goes first… and then it’s gloves off…
May 16th, 2009 at 2:34 pmb-cup, you still haven’t explained what offense Nancy Pelosi committed that would justify her ouster, other than being a Democrat.
May 16th, 2009 at 2:35 pmbackup Says:
Here’s what Pelosi could say:
___________
So we can trust you expect EXACTLY THE SAME for all the Republicans involved?
Or are you the hypocrite so many of us believe to be?
May 16th, 2009 at 2:36 pmbackup Says:
ralph. come on. really that big a deal?
If I may say, I agree with ralph, for all of his eloquently stated reasons plus I think it’s juvenile, offensive and hopefully beneath you.
May 16th, 2009 at 2:36 pmThat’s all true, TRoHS… but when called on it, you don’t feign innocence and say, “What? What’d I say?” and then complain about the GOOPers being “grammar police”.
May 16th, 2009 at 2:37 pmralph the wonder locust Says:
That’s all true, TRoHS… but when called on it, you don’t feign innocence and say, “What? What’d I say?”
___________
Me???
Feign innocence?
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA…
Uh… were you being serious?
Heh… my bad…
Oh… look… there goes a &#*@% fudgepacker…
May 16th, 2009 at 2:40 pmhormiga brava chavez Says:
I believe Pelosi and Graham. Why would Pelosi call for an investigation if she had anything to hide? If the CIA was taking orders from Cheney, then they lied. Rethuglicans are trying to take the focus off Bush & Cheney – the two chief orchestrators for torture.
Please note we aren’t referring to eyeliner/mascara wearing, switching lindsey graham.
May 16th, 2009 at 2:41 pmNancy Pelosi took impeachment of Bush “off the table” after she knew he ordered torture. She should have allowed the impeachment to proceed, so she deserves to be punished.
Before we worry about investigating Pelsoi, it is far more important that we investigate Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rove and Rice. Once the investigation into what these people is concluded, and they have had their day in court, then perhaps its time to go after Pelosi.
Until the people that committed the crime are punished, there is no point in punishing people that knew that a crime was being committed.
At least the Republicans are now admitting a crime has been committed. Let the trial begin, and let no Republican escape unscathed.
May 16th, 2009 at 2:41 pmsometimes you don’t have to be guilty of anything for it to make sense to fall on your sword.
I’ll check back later.
May 16th, 2009 at 2:42 pmMexican standoff???
May 16th, 2009 at 2:43 pmI think it’s more like pointing a gun to your head and threatening to shoot if your demands aren’t met.
If what Pelosi may have done (and probably did) I have no problem with the idea of her stepping down as Speaker.
Would this also include every member of Congress who received the same sort of briefings submitting to censure or stepping down?
May 16th, 2009 at 2:45 pmIs it a potential Mexican standoff? And by that, I mean, Senator, that Democrats feel they have the goods on the prior administration to drag out hearings on what they knew about Iraq and when. Now Republicans have the goods, presumably, on Nancy Pelosi about what she knew about interrogation and when. So to avoid mutual self-destruction, both parties cease and desist.
“”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"
Three Points;
May 16th, 2009 at 2:46 pm1.) Torture is torture. A full accounting of the facts.
2.) If this is a game of chicken, then Obama has no choice
but to call their bluff.
3.) For all the Republicans squawking, a full investigation
is too irresistible.
On with the truth commission, waste no time!!!!
backup says:
Amazing. This troll thinks Pelosi should “fall on her sword” because somehow that would be good for the Democratic Party. It does not make sense for Pelosi to fall on her sword, especially if she has done nothing wrong.
Wingnuts are desperate to get any Democrat to go down for the crimes of the Republican Party.
By backup’s logic, Republicans aren’t really guilty of anything, but it makes sense for them to fall on their sword anyway, and they are doing a great job of it.
May 16th, 2009 at 2:49 pmif pelosi was complicit in this policy i say better start buying accessories that go with orange, nancy.
May 16th, 2009 at 2:49 pmSo to avoid mutual self-destruction, both parties cease and desist.
Nope. Let us go for mutual destruction. If any member of Congress is complicit, say buh bye. Let the states use whatever methods are prescribed and let us get a Congress that does not bow to torture.
I do not want to be represented by anyone who lacks the moral courage to deny torture.
May 16th, 2009 at 2:50 pmAnd that neatly sums up the meat of the right-wing argument in this debate.
Note that b-cup neglected to respond to the question posed by TRoHS:
May 16th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
Thanks to the GOP’s attempt to re-frame the criticizm to Pelosi they are actually pretending to support a full investigation. Something they obviously don’t want because it will be ALL bad for the GOP!
So typical. Reich-wingers seem incapable of seeing the forest from the trees!
While Democrats are playing chess the GOP is still playing checkers.
May 16th, 2009 at 2:52 pmsomeone ought to clue the repukies into the fact democrats don’t cover for each other just because there’s a (d) after their name. unlike, oh, i dunno…mark foley
May 16th, 2009 at 2:55 pmi dunno, proud,
May 16th, 2009 at 2:56 pmmaybe she’ll trot out a “contract with america”
that would be a real hoot.
If Pelosi had gone public about highly classified information, she would’ve been arrested for treason.
Voicing opposition both publicly and privately is hardly hypocritical. If she wasn’t advising the Administration that torture was okay, wasn’t authorizing it, ordering it or planning it, I fail to see how she herself is guilty of a crime. She’s a witness to a crime.
If we’re going to consider what she did was a crime, she won’t be able to testify without immunity because she’d be incriminating herself.
May 16th, 2009 at 2:59 pmClearly, b-cup is not the type of conservative to gin up a fake controversy over nothing (that would be Prod) but he IS exactly the type needed for the second wave: once the fake controversy has been ignited and the faux-outrage is swirling, b-cup will be more than willing to recognize its force and suggest that,whether genuine or not, it is a real controversy and it’s best handled by giving in to teh demands of those holding the pitchforks.
way to go, b-cup.
May 16th, 2009 at 3:01 pmbackup Says:
sometimes you don’t have to be guilty of anything for it to make sense to fall on your sword.
______________
In other words, you don’t have a real, substantive answer, so you resort to nonsense.
Why am I not surprised…???
May 16th, 2009 at 3:01 pmAny politician who has any sense — left, right or center — & isn’t directly implicated in authorizing torture (Dick, George) should be out decrying torture & demanding investigations &, where appropriate, prosecutions. How many voters do politicians think approve of torture? There’s something seriously wrong with folks who just want to “look forward” (Barack). Especially as it becomes more & more evident that the purpose of the torturing we did was to try to get false statements that Saddam Hussien was linked to Al Qaeda, any politician who hasn’t been a muckraking fool is going to look really bad to the general public. Right now, that’s most of ‘em. The heroes will be Pat Leahy, Sheldon Whitehouse, Russ Feingold & the few who “get” that.
The Constant Weader at http://www.RealityChex.cm
May 16th, 2009 at 3:02 pmGreat, so we both agree that a FULL investigation is in order. For once I agree with a tr0ll. Thanks for your support. With your help we will get Cheney and the DOJ lawyers thrown in jail! Oh, sure we can questions Pelosi to just to make your faux controversey complete but that is inconsequential to the ultimate outcome.
Once again, thanks for your support! Let the war crimes trials begin!
May 16th, 2009 at 3:05 pmThe Obama admin is playing this perfectly! They do not need to get involved and by doing so cannot be targeted by the GOP. Ultimately it will all be sorted out in Congress as it should be! I dream of the day I see Cheney in shackles!
May 16th, 2009 at 3:10 pmeyeswideopen1 Says:
GrrrlRomeo Says:
eyeswideopen – I may be wrong but I don’t think GrrrlRomeo is a troll. Try reading that post again from a diffent angle.
May 16th, 2009 at 3:24 pmand maybe the truth commission should go back to why Cheney shelved Hart/Rudman.
http://www.lflus.com
May 16th, 2009 at 3:26 pmThey are talking about what Pelosi knew and investigating her. So either they don’t realize it’s just another GOP shell game to reframe the criticism away from the GOP and truth commissions in which case they are ignorant…….or they are a tr0ll! Generally it’s one in the same!
May 16th, 2009 at 3:33 pmProud Says:
____________
Yesterday, Long John boHHHHHHHHHner publicly stated Nancy Pelosi knows more than she’s admitting, BUT… he doesn’t support a Truth Commission. Why?
Of course, it is quite easy to come to the conclusion from boHHHHHHHHner’s own words that he too thinks a crime has been committed… by Nancy, of course.
Do you frauds get to try Nancy in public w/ no proof, due process, basically ANYTHING… or what?
And… can we trust you support a full-blown Truth Commission, then?
Or… are you just out to help prolong the smoke screen?
May 16th, 2009 at 3:41 pmmary lacewing Says:
I may be wrong but I don’t think GrrrlRomeo is a troll. Try reading that post again from a diffent angle.
May 16th, 2009 at 3:24 pm
I agree. I think the post was more speculative (“If we’re going to consider what she did was a crime…”, i.e., if the conservative framing is that what Pelosi did was a crime) than trollish. At least that’s how I read it.
May 16th, 2009 at 3:46 pmHey, TRoS – OT, Mets game is on in a few minutes, so I’ll be in and out here. They’re giving me a little more hope these last coupla games, thank the baseball gods!
Okay, back to the torture investigations…
May 16th, 2009 at 3:51 pmThere are no ‘if’s in the equation. What the GOP is doing is absolutely positively 100% certain! It is quite a stupid strategy really! They are in a no win situation and are just blindly firing with both barrels in all directions out of desperation. Nothing good for the GOP will come out of this. It is only to the Democrats advantage to let them carry on and just keep saying “so we all agree on a full investigation of everyone”
May 16th, 2009 at 3:53 pmJane E. Schneider Says:
Hey, TRoS – OT, Mets game is on in a few minutes, so I’ll be in and out here. They’re giving me a little more hope these last coupla games, thank the baseball gods!
___________
We’ll have a discussion about the Mets another time, Jane, and I agree.
They’re playing well right now. Good chemistry, even w/ the problems and injuries.
May 16th, 2009 at 3:54 pmeyeswideopen1 Says:
What the GOP is doing is absolutely positively 100% certain! It is quite a stupid strategy really! They are in a no win situation and are just blindly firing with both barrels in all directions out of desperation.
_____________
W/ this latest bit of news, that Cheney was the one who authorized using torture to find a link between Iraq and al Qaeda, it certainly explains why Dick has been out beating his drum so loudly, trying to convince folks that torture “saved thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of lives”.
If I didn’t know better, I’d say Dick is running SCARED.
I also find it strange that Bush has remained so silent on all of this.
May 16th, 2009 at 3:58 pm“There are no ‘if’s in the equation. What the GOP is doing is absolutely positively 100% certain! It is quite a stupid strategy really! They are in a no win situation and are just blindly firing with both barrels in all directions out of desperation. Nothing good for the GOP will come out of this. It is only to the Democrats advantage to let them carry on and just keep saying “so we all agree on a full investigation of everyone”"
Oh, I agree with you, the Rs are using an incredibly stupid strategy, they’re not capable of thinking about the cons against their ideas or strategies! But considering that the MSM is apparently going to continue to be the R’s mouthpiece, I would not be surprised if this asinine idea of theirs gain momentum. Aghast, yes, but not surprised.
May 16th, 2009 at 4:03 pmPelosi doesn’t need to be investigated, she needs to TESTIFY, along with anyone else who has information.
May 16th, 2009 at 4:05 pm“I also find it strange that Bush has remained so silent on all of this.”
TRoS, Cheney probably ordered him to keep his mouth shut. I’ll bet that if Cheney could find a way to get away with locking W up in his man-sized safe, he wouldn’t hesitate.
May 16th, 2009 at 4:06 pmIf Democrats want to insist that the GOP is the party of torture or that they own the torture issue, Pelosi’s acquiescence has to be resolved.
If Democrats turn a blind eye to Pelosi, it would be more difficult for them to pursue the administration for torture.
If Democrats call Pelosi to account, and possibly replace her with new leadership, they retain the moral high ground and build a stronger position to pursue the Republicans in question.
It’s not that Republicans will feel compelled to resign, it’s that the Democratic position to force their redress is either retained or made stronger.
May 16th, 2009 at 4:07 pmCheney isn’t running scared, he’s running strong. He has the MSM backing him and he is playing the ‘holy crap, the 18%ers of the Muslim community are going to nuke Seattle’ schtick very well.
He is playing to the fear that has been ingrained in our society and doing it very well. 300 million Americans have to be very afraid of a couple of thousand terrorists. Careful, they will take your Ipods away.
May 16th, 2009 at 4:10 pmTim Vaculik Says:
If Ms. Pelosi is so intent on a “truth commission” then she will find herself on the RECEIVING END.
Hmmmm, unlike you on the right, we WANT to hold our guys accountable…it’s not just OMG REPUBLICANS = EVIL like that ignorant name-jacker would love to suggest…
May 16th, 2009 at 4:12 pmbackup Says: If Democrats want to insist that the GOP is the party of torture or that they own the torture issue, Pelosi’s acquiescence has to be resolved.
Put the cart before the horse much there, backup?
May 16th, 2009 at 4:12 pmBy the Republican standard, the US should be more worried about the person who didn’t blow the whistle than the person who needed the whistle to be blown on.
May 16th, 2009 at 4:17 pmLet’s put it in terms most Americans can understand.
Who is more at fault? The football player who launches a late tackle that paralyzes the ball carrier or the referee who misses the call?
May 16th, 2009 at 4:20 pmOkay. Forget about Pelosi. But, here’s what will happen.
Democrats and progressives will continue to press for redress of the abusive interrogation techniques. Torture.
Republicans and the former administration will say, “Well, your current leadership was briefed on the techniques at the time and said nothing about it. The current attempts to penalize the decision makers that occurred in the aftermath of 9/11 is partisan monday morning quarterbacking. Otherwise, those objecting the loudest today, would have said something at the time.
May 16th, 2009 at 4:21 pmdecision making in the aftermath of 9/11
May 16th, 2009 at 4:22 pm191 backup says:
Backup_the_troll says that the Democrats have to “resolve” Pelosi’s acquiescence to “insist” that the GOP is the pro torture party. This is simply not true. We already know the GOP is the pro torture party, and Pelosi’s acquiescence is irrelevant.
Backup_the_troll says that if Democrats turn a blind eye to Pelosi, it will somehow be more difficult for them to go after Bush and Cheney. I don’t see how this is the case, so we will wait for Backup to provide evidence for this.
Backup_the_troll thinks that if Pelosi is forced to resign, Democrats will be in a stronger position to pursue Bush/Cheney. Again, he provides no evidence for this and I suspect waiting for evidence from a troll is pointless.
Backup_the_troll wants Pelosi to be removed from power to make the Democrats stronger in their ability to punish Bush/Cheney. This is blatant concern trolling and should be flagged as such.
May 16th, 2009 at 4:23 pmbackup Says: Republicans and the former administration will say, “Well, your current leadership was briefed on the techniques at the time and said nothing about it. The current attempts to penalize the decision makers that occurred in the aftermath of 9/11 is partisan monday morning quarterbacking. Otherwise, those objecting the loudest today, would have said something at the time.
If you aren’t better than this, enjoy your sh*it sandwich.
May 16th, 2009 at 4:23 pmBackup, they’re already saying that crap. And it’s just as unbelievable as all the other crap they’re currently spewing as excuses for torture, including and especially, “waterboarding is not torture.”
May 16th, 2009 at 4:25 pmbackup Says:
decision making in the aftermath of 9/11
And on who’s watch did this happen?
May 16th, 2009 at 4:26 pmWhy is 9/11 an excuse to forego morality?
May 16th, 2009 at 4:27 pmsad part is, backup, I have read things you have posted that say you are better than this. Not here but elsewhere.
You can be better.
May 16th, 2009 at 4:29 pmBackup,
You can spin it as hard as you want, but you won’t change the reality that Bush and Cheney and other Republicans have committed heinous crimes. While it is possible that some Democrats may not have blow the whistle, it is the Republicans that are going to bear the burden of being the pro torture party.
Wingnuts like backup need to realize that they are just as guilty as Bush and Cheney when they make excuses for them. If you think Pelosi should step down from power or be removed from power because of what she knew about the terror program, what should the penalty be for Bush and Cheney, the real criminals here?
Whatever penalty Pelosi might face is trivial compared to the penalties the Bush crime cabal is facing.
May 16th, 2009 at 4:30 pmTim Vaculik Says:
If Ms. Pelosi is so intent on a “truth commission” then she will find herself on the RECEIVING END.
Why, Tim, because someone will set a “perjury trap” for her?
If you are able to explain what a “perjury trap” is, I am ready to listen. You bailed out on me the other night when I asked you to explain that.
May 16th, 2009 at 4:31 pmIt’s not about monday morning quarterbacking, with all due respect, 191…It’s more about political expediency and cowardice stemming from the Democrats who failed to hold this administration accountable IF they knew about the briefing. So let’s see where the investigation goes. If Pelosi has to go, it’s no big loss. We’re not saying Pelosi is automatically innocent, but rather she should be held accountable if she is. However, that does not mean that Bushco goes free much as the conservatives want. They just want it both ways…they don’t want the administration held accountable for torture, but they want to hold those who failed to blow the whistle accountable to take the fall for the previous administration.
Perhaps this is a clumsy analogy, but I just came from taking the CSET…so bear with me. During the Black Sox scandal, Buck Weaver was asked to participate in the fixing of the series, but refused to do so and actually played hard. However, he was banned too for not reporting the deed. If we followed what the conservatives wanted, Buck Weaver would have been the ONLY ONE banned from baseball, while the cheats went free…
It’s like a cheater who tries to pass the buck by saying that the student next to him saw him but refused to say anything. Therefore the cheater should go free but the non-whistleblower shouldn’t…No teacher would buy that and so too should the American people refuse to buy that. This game of well Democrats did it too is a no-win card in the playground and also should be when it comes to the rule of law…
May 16th, 2009 at 4:32 pmOne of the most revered traditions of command in the US is the CO is responsible for everything that happens on his watch, under his command.
This dates back over two hundred years. Who ever is in command is responsible for all actions that take place during his tenure.
Run and hide, Republicans, but it is an American tradition.
May 16th, 2009 at 4:36 pmIn the aftermath of 9/11, in which many believed other significant terror attacks were eminent and the ranking Democrat of the house intelligence committee felt no compulsion (when briefed) to question waterboarding as an interrogation technique: it happened under the watch of the Bush administration.
What is so obviously perverse today, may have seem rational in light of the terror threat post 9/11. That is what, I believe, caused Pelosi to acquiesce.
I really don’t think Pelosi should have to step down. Her actions were a response to the conditions at the time.
But, if Democrats and progressives want redress for the use of the abusive techniques, they cannot ignore Pelosi’s complicity.
May 16th, 2009 at 4:42 pmHe is simply on a book pre-promotion tour first and foremost! Also trying to re-write history to defend his ‘acomplishments’.
People over estimate him. I do not believe he fully understands the potential legal ramifications of some of the things he is saying! His intellectual reasoning throughout history has always been characterized as overly simplistic. He can analyze details well enough but misses the big picture!
May 16th, 2009 at 4:44 pmAttacking Nancy Pelosi does not change the facts about torture and the Bush Crime Family. Next subject.
May 16th, 2009 at 4:48 pm“But, if Democrats and progressives want redress for the use of the abusive techniques, they cannot ignore Pelosi’s complicity.”
Backup, first, there’s no ‘if’, we do want accountability (I prefer that to ‘redress’. Second, if Pelosi is found to have been complicit, we won’t ignore it.
And if you haven’t gleaned that after all this time, from all of our comments, not just here but any time there’s a thread about Pelosi, then I’ve vastly overestimated your intelligence.
May 16th, 2009 at 4:51 pm“I do not believe he fully understands the potential legal ramifications of some of the things he is saying!”
eyeswideopen1, megalomania will do that to a person.
May 16th, 2009 at 4:53 pm209 Backup Says:
Here we see the foundation being laid for the Bush/Cheney defense. Pelosi should not be punished because her cations were a response to the conditions at the time therefore Bush/Cheney should have the same excuse applied to them.
This is simply not true. If Pelosi’s response was incorrect, regardless of the post 9/11 mentality, she should be punished. The same applies to the Bush crime cabal.
9/11 is not an excuse for torture.
May 16th, 2009 at 4:56 pmcations = actions
May 16th, 2009 at 4:58 pmbackup says: But, if Democrats and progressives want redress for the use of the abusive techniques, they cannot ignore Pelosi’s complicity.
Sorry little buddy but no one has said anything differently. But blaming someone who was told about something versus someone who did something is specious.
May 16th, 2009 at 5:00 pmJane. Nancy Pelosi is a good progressive. She’s a politician, but she’s probably a very good person that cares about equality and fair treatment.
She was in a briefing were the CIA was describing waterboarding as an option during interrogation.
Nancy Pelosi is obviously a very smart woman. She didn’t say anything. Why?
She could have at least spoken up during the briefing. I don’t think she would have been jailed for asking whether waterboarding was appropriate.
I remember the atmosphere after 9/11. People were scared. It’s not an excuse, but it’s reality. We also did not have the consensus that information obtained from waterboarding is suspect. It’s pretty easy to acknowledge that Americans should not be waterboarding terror suspects today.
But, in an atmosphere where we recently lost 3,000 innocent, in which the idea that valuable intelligence could be garnered by waterboarding was plausible, and that more significant attacks were likely; I think the practice seemed much more rational than it does today.
Otherwise, you have to ask yourself, what was Pelosi thinking, when she sat thru the briefings and said nothing.
May 16th, 2009 at 5:07 pmbackup,
I agree 100% with your comments at @191 and #197. Thanks for giving these folks some clarity…
May 16th, 2009 at 5:09 pmLevi,
The reason you and others are having so much difficulty understanding the real issue as it relates to Democrats and the torture issue is that by your post(s) it’s evident you simply cannot discern the importance of INTEGRITY.
Perhaps integrity is an unfamiliar term?
May 16th, 2009 at 5:11 pmbackup Says: “Otherwise, you have to ask yourself, what was Pelosi thinking, when she sat thru the briefings and said nothing.”
(Pelosi, thinking to herself:)
May 16th, 2009 at 5:12 pm“I can’t wait till the tide turns, and we are going to hang these inhuman bastards out to dry…”
Hoodathunk. maybe we’re on the same page. Pelosi does not bear the responsibility the Bush administration has for waterboarding. The Bush administration enacted the policies.
I’m only saying that if Democrats or progressives want to continue to pursue redress, Pelosi is an impediment, because of the briefings. It has the appearance of hypocrisy.
May 16th, 2009 at 5:15 pm“…Otherwise, you have to ask yourself, what was Pelosi thinking, when she sat thru the briefings and said nothing.”
I,and I’m sure many others here, have already been asking ourselves that.
Again, let me stress that the majority of us ‘lefties’ believe in accountability to the Constitution and the rule of law, no matter what party is involved. We do NOT blindly follow the ‘party’ lead or defend the indefensible. And, again, if you don’t understand that fact, then you don’t know anything about us.
May 16th, 2009 at 5:15 pmIt bears repeating that the aftermath of 9/11 is not acceptable as an excuse for torture. Not for Republicans and not for Democrats.
Backup claims that “the practice (of torture) seemed more rational” right after 9/11 than it does now that the shock of 9/11 has worn off. Maybe Republicans can rationalize torture because they were in shock, but that still does not make torture legal.
There is no excuse for torture, and the entire Bush crime cabal needs to be held accountable.
May 16th, 2009 at 5:16 pmTim Vaculik Says:
backup,
I agree 100% with your comments at @191 and #197. Thanks for giving these folks some clarity…
Clarity?
May 16th, 2009 at 5:18 pmBackup excels at misdirection, baiting, obfuscation and general mealy-mouthing, admittedly with succinctness and some panache…
I wouldn’t call it clarity, unless you fall for that kind of stuff…
Tim Vaculik Says:
Thanks for giving these folks some clarity…
May 16th, 2009 at 5:09 pm
Tim, you wouldn’t know clarity if it bit you in the ass. Do you even read any of our comments? Or is it possible that you simply don’t comprehend?
Never mind, after that idiotic ‘integrity’ comment I just don’t care what lameass response you’ll come back with.
May 16th, 2009 at 5:21 pmTim Says:
You are calling my integrity into question? There isn’t a wingnut left in America with the slightest inkling of integrity. If you are going to call my integrity into question, you are going to have to quote me word for word instead of implying I lack integrity, which apparently you think is “evident from my posts”.
Please quote exactly which posts of mine show a lack of integrity. We will wait.
You wingnuts do not get to decide what the “real issues” are. None of us have any difficulty at all with the issue. The issue is torture and the Republicans are the pro torture party. There isn’t a decent American left that will ever vote Republican again just on that issue alone. How’s that for the real issue?
May 16th, 2009 at 5:24 pm“I’m only saying that if Democrats or progressives want to continue to pursue redress, Pelosi is an impediment, because of the briefings. It has the appearance of hypocrisy.”
And we have already discussed and disputed this point. C’mon, backup, just give this one up.
May 16th, 2009 at 5:25 pmJane,
Then I will be waiting for your comments on our new President’s transgressions against the Constitution and the rule of law. In fact, he’s already done quite a bit. Any comments?
May 16th, 2009 at 5:41 pmLevi,
No, not YOUR integrity silly. Ms. Pelosi’s lack of integrity.
May 16th, 2009 at 5:44 pmWhat I find so disturbing about the entire issue of so-called “war crimes” and “torture” is that either most of you were ASLEEP right after 9-11 or you have no comprehension of what it meant and what we faced in the aftermath.
May 16th, 2009 at 5:47 pmAlright. I’m out. If Pelosi can keep the speakership and Democrats can get some traction on holding the Bush administration to account for the waterboarding, I’ll concede the point.
Obviously, time will tell.
Good crowd. Have a great night.
May 16th, 2009 at 5:48 pmNow let’s set the record STRAIGHT.
First:
Enemy combatants like the ones we hold at Club Gitmo ARE NOT ENTITLED to be treated under the Geneva convention governing conventional war between nations! Nonetheless, we treated them even BETTER than they deserved, i.e. halal meals, prayers, Korans, excellent medical care, etc.
Second:
May 16th, 2009 at 5:51 pmAs the de-classified memos now show, the type of waterboarding we used on high-value detainees CANNOT BE COMPARED to the way it was used in the past by other countries. It is harsh, yes! It does not constitute torture.
Tim, having hung around TP for a while, you know as well as I do that many of us have voiced our disappointment and anger with several of President Obama’s views and actions so far. Personally, I’m not happy with Geithner, with the bailouts in general, with the President’s current stance on DADT, with his latest decision to go ahead with military tribunals at Gitmo, and certainly with his reprehensible idea of “looking forward, not back” regarding War Crimes. His recent speech regarding not releasing the new torture photos, where he reiterated the crap about ‘a few bad apples’ particularly infuriated me.
Is that a good enough start? And, by the way, as so many Rs kept telling us during the Bush regime, President Obama is your President, too.
May 16th, 2009 at 5:53 pmbackup says: I’m only saying that if Democrats or progressives want to continue to pursue redress, Pelosi is an impediment, because of the briefings. It has the appearance of hypocrisy.
Pay attention, backup. Nobody here is saying Pelosi is the Virgin Mary. The only reason she is a distraction is because the people who designed and implemented the policies are trying to make her the scapegoat. She had no responsibility other than to scream no. That she didn’t is two tiers down from the people show said yes.
May 16th, 2009 at 5:53 pmSee ya around, backup.
May 16th, 2009 at 5:53 pmFinally, you folks can dream on if you think anyone who served in the last administration will EVER be convicted of any so-called “war crime” stemming from 9-11 or the Iraq war!
It will happen only in your fevered DREAMS. Take it to the bank.
May 16th, 2009 at 5:54 pmTim Vaculik Says:
Now let’s set the record STRAIGHT.
May 16th, 2009 at 5:51 pm
You didn’t, since you were wrong on both parts. But that’s not important right now, Tim. What is important is that you explain “perjury trap” to me. How does testifying truthfully under oath subject one to a “perjury trap”?
May 16th, 2009 at 5:55 pmHoodathunktick,
No, this is not true. It’s because she has no INTEGRITY. She’s a liar to boot.
May 16th, 2009 at 5:56 pmJane E. Schneider Says: Is that a good enough start? And, by the way, as so many Rs kept telling us during the Bush regime, President Obama is your President, too.
The trolls have a hard time understanding that while we progressive types support the President we can still disagree
May 16th, 2009 at 5:57 pmwith him. And do so so very vehemently.
Tim Vaculik Says: No, this is not true. It’s because she has no INTEGRITY. She’s a liar to boot.
If she is a liar, her level of lying is much lower than the people who turned our country into a torture state. Not to be accepted but if she lied, she did so to cover the bigger lies of the Executive branch.
May 16th, 2009 at 6:00 pmWayne,
Sorry I couldn’t continue on that thread the other day.
Intentional Perjury is not what I was commenting on the other day. What I am referring to is the tactic lawyers and prosecutors engage in deliberately in an attempt to rattle the person under questioning so that they can later point to discrepancies in their testimony! The discrepancies can be HONEST ones, but the lawyer will then try to convince the jury that it constitutes perjury.
If you want a good example of a perjury trap, just look at what happened to Scooter Libbey.
May 16th, 2009 at 6:02 pmTim Vaculik Says:
Finally, you folks can dream on if you think anyone who served in the last administration will EVER be convicted of any so-called “war crime” stemming from 9-11 or the Iraq war!
It will happen only in your fevered DREAMS.
Maybe and if it is true, kiss the US goodbye. Me, I think America is made of sterner stuff. Keep spouting your fantasy.
May 16th, 2009 at 6:03 pmTim Vaculik Says:
What I find so disturbing about the entire issue of so-called “war crimes” and “torture” is that either most of you were ASLEEP right after 9-11 or you have no comprehension of what it meant and what we faced in the aftermath.
May 16th, 2009 at 5:47 pm
As a New Yorker and an American citizen, I resent this comment immensely. What we faced in the aftermath of 9/11 was the dismissal of the sympathy and goodwill of the world by the Bush administration, and the taking advantage of the tragedy by a group of power-hungry, oil-hungry, and war-hungry Neocons to circumvent the Constitution, the Congress and the American people in order to start their war of choice.
Frack them, and frack you, too, Tim.
May 16th, 2009 at 6:04 pmI find it funny how Tim wants to hold Pelosi accountable for actions he considers to be legal, considering his viewpoint that people at Gitmo have no rights and can be tortured…
May 16th, 2009 at 6:04 pmJane,
Well, the example you gave are interesting, but don’t relate directly to the rule of law, for example.
I accept your arguments with regards to criticizing the President.
May 16th, 2009 at 6:04 pmTim,
That wasn’t a “perjury trap”, Tim. Scooter Libby lied under oath.
May 16th, 2009 at 6:06 pmJane,
Well I didn’t mention you by name, but from your comment on 9-11 it looks like it FITS.
May 16th, 2009 at 6:07 pm“No, this is not true. It’s because she has no INTEGRITY. She’s a liar to boot.”
Don’t even mention the word ‘integrity’ here, d*ckwad.
May 16th, 2009 at 6:09 pmTim Vaculik Says:
What I find so disturbing about the entire issue of so-called “war crimes” and “torture” is that either most of you were ASLEEP right after 9-11 or you have no comprehension of what it meant and what we faced in the aftermath.
May 16th, 2009 at 5:47 pm
You’re buying Karl Rove’s argument that we prepared therapy and free cookies and tea for Al Qaeda?
May 16th, 2009 at 6:11 pmWayne,
Well, the jury was persuaded to come to this conclusion, but it doesn’t make it so.
I refer you to the comments immediately after the trial from the jury foreman. Turns out he was a seld-described “plant” who already has his mind made up before he even got into court.
Not only this, but a very good case could be made for prosecutorial mis-conduct in this case because the prosecutor already KNEW who leaked ms. Plame’s name, but nevertheless continued his prosecution of Mr. Libbey!
May 16th, 2009 at 6:11 pmJane,
Well, the example you gave are interesting,
and the rest of the literate world is waiting with ‘baited’ breath for your next bit of enlightenment.
May 16th, 2009 at 6:11 pmGo f&ck yourself, Tim.
May 16th, 2009 at 6:11 pmJane,
So you believe that Ms. Pelosi is a person of unquestioned integrity? Do you believe she’s telling the truth???
Did you watch her press conference?
Do you believe Leon Panetta is a liar?
May 16th, 2009 at 6:12 pmUCSBKitty Says:
——————————————————————————–
It’s not about monday morning quarterbacking, with all due respect, 191…It’s more about political expediency and cowardice stemming from the Democrats who failed to hold this administration accountable IF they knew about the briefing.
Let me get this straight. You’re saying that it’s not the Repubs’ fault for using torture, but it is the Dems’ fault for not stopping the torture. Are you insane? First of all, we have proof that Bush/Cheney and company used illegal torture. We have NO proof that Pelosi or any dems knew about it after the fact.
Your insane logic is like saying that if someone commits a murder and tells someone after the fact, the person who was told about the murder–not the murderer–should be held accountable. Ridiculous.
May 16th, 2009 at 6:13 pmTim Vaculik Says: I refer you to the comments immediately after the trial from the jury foreman. Turns out he was a seld-described “plant” who already has his mind made up before he even got into court.
Timmy, is Urdu your native language?
May 16th, 2009 at 6:13 pmTim,
If you are going to continue to refuse to operate in the fact-based reality the rest of us live in, then intelligent discourse with you is impossible.
Waterboarding someone, even for a few seconds, is illegal. Period. It constitutes torture. Period. Torture violates US Law and International Treaty. Period. Nothing in the world can justify using torture. Period. Torturing people captured during a war is a war crime. Period. Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld (and several others) authorized the torture of people we captured. Period. Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld (and several others) committed war crimes. Period.
You lose the argument. Period.
May 16th, 2009 at 6:14 pmYou see folks, it IS about integrity. Some of you have it… some of you don’t
May 16th, 2009 at 6:14 pmTimmy says: Do you believe Leon Panetta is a liar?
Does he work for the CIA?
May 16th, 2009 at 6:15 pmTim Vaculik Says:
You see folks, it IS about integrity.
I know that word is not in the Republican dictionary.
May 16th, 2009 at 6:16 pmTim Vaculik Says:
Jane,
So you believe that Ms. Pelosi is a person of unquestioned integrity? Do you believe she’s telling the truth???
Did you watch her press conference?
Do you believe Leon Panetta is a liar?
May 16th, 2009 at 6:12 pm
False choice arguments, Tim. No, we do not “believe that Ms. Pelosi is a person of unquestioned integrity?” When did we say that?
Second, many of us have said that it wasn’t that Panetta lied, it’s that the information he gave was of suspect veracity. I’m not saying it was his intent to lie. I’m saying the information he had was wrong. The CIA has been caught giving out false information to members of Congress, and don’t for a second think they never do that.
May 16th, 2009 at 6:17 pmhyacinthgirl Says:
UCSBKitty Says:
——————————————————————————–
It’s not about monday morning quarterbacking, with all due respect, 191…It’s more about political expediency and cowardice stemming from the Democrats who failed to hold this administration accountable IF they knew about the briefing.
Let me get this straight. You’re saying that it’s not the Repubs’ fault for using torture, but it is the Dems’ fault for not stopping the torture. Are you insane? First of all, we have proof that Bush/Cheney and company used illegal torture. We have NO proof that Pelosi or any dems knew about it after the fact.
Your insane logic is like saying that if someone commits a murder and tells someone after the fact, the person who was told about the murder–not the murderer–should be held accountable. Ridiculous.
When did I EVER say that?! I think you’re mistaken in putting words in my mouth. My point was that backup was seeming to make the insinuation that we DON’T want to hold Pelosi accountable and would much WANT to turn this into a political football instead of trying to find out who is responsible and needs to be held accountable so IT NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN.
Here is the part you missed…
However, that does not mean that Bushco goes free much as the conservatives want. They just want it both ways…they don’t want the administration held accountable for torture, but they want to hold those who failed to blow the whistle accountable to take the fall for the previous administration.
Perhaps this is a clumsy analogy, but I just came from taking the CSET…so bear with me. During the Black Sox scandal, Buck Weaver was asked to participate in the fixing of the series, but refused to do so and actually played hard. However, he was banned too for not reporting the deed. If we followed what the conservatives wanted, Buck Weaver would have been the ONLY ONE banned from baseball, while the cheats went free…
It’s like a cheater who tries to pass the buck by saying that the student next to him saw him but refused to say anything. Therefore the cheater should go free but the non-whistleblower shouldn’t…No teacher would buy that and so too should the American people refuse to buy that. This game of well Democrats did it too is a no-win card in the playground and also should be when it comes to the rule of law…
May 16th, 2009 at 6:18 pmHoodathunktick,
Sorry for any confusion. Let me be perfectly clear and repeat the facts:
1. Scooter Libbey didn’t leak Ms. Plame’s identity.
2. The prosecutor knew this, but kept moving forward with his prosecution of Mr. Libey.
3. Mr. Libbey’s testimony contained inconsistencies, but no errors of fact.
4. Shortly after the trial was over the foreman BOASTED about his involvement in convincing the jury that Mr. Libbey lied. His motives were clear – he had a self-described agenda to get on that jury and “get” Mr. Libbey.
5. A few of his fellow jurors complained after the trial about how he “bulleyed” them and was ADAMANT from the beginning of deliberations that Mr. Libbey was guilty.
Mr. Libbey was caught in the CLASSIC perjury trap. This is a familiar place for those called to “testify” before Congress as well. God help you if you are the least bit inconsistent with what you say!
May 16th, 2009 at 6:20 pmHas to bother most Republicans that people would believe a priest talking about a choir boy before a CIA statement.
May 16th, 2009 at 6:21 pmTim, shove it. Did I say anything to indicate that I believe that Ms. Pelosi is telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help her god? Have I said that she is above reproach? Or, have I said that if she was found to be complicit in war crimes, she should be accountable? Hmmm? Plus, isn’t Pelosi demanding that the CIA’s briefing notes be made public so that she can prove herself? What will you say if that happens? Will you admit that you were wrong? If it is found that she has lied, I will be among the first to say that she should be prosecuted!
Let’s turn this around for a minute. Do you think Republican Bob Graham is lying about his notes and recollection regarding the CIA’s claim that he was at 4 briefings? Do you think that every member of the CIA is a person of unquestioned integrity who would ‘never lie to Congress’? Do you think that former Vice-President Cheney is a person of unquestioned integrity?
Try not to be such a jerk, Tim. Then maybe I’ll try not to be such a b!tch.
May 16th, 2009 at 6:21 pmRHF,
Get up to speed, will ya?
Ms. Pelosi made broad, sweeping accusations about the integrity of the entire CIA! Also, you apparently haven’t listened to what he said very carefully the other day.
May 16th, 2009 at 6:24 pm4. Shortly after the trial was over the foreman BOASTED about his involvement in convincing the jury that Mr. Libbey lied. His motives were clear – he had a self-described agenda to get on that jury and “get” Mr. Libbey.
5. A few of his fellow jurors complained after the trial about how he “bulleyed” them and was ADAMANT from the beginning of deliberations that Mr. Libbey was guilty.
I’m going to see some kind of supporting documentation from a credible source before I consider believing that.
And, for the record, Libby was involved in the outing of Valerie Plame, who was a covert agent at the time her CIA status was revealed, and he did on orders from his boss Dick Cheney. And Karl Rove helped but managed to get away with it. Cheney even complained that his guy was twisting in the wind while Bush’s guy went free.
May 16th, 2009 at 6:24 pmMs. Pelosi made broad, sweeping accusations about the integrity of the entire CIA! Also, you apparently haven’t listened to what he said very carefully the other day.
Hmmmmm, I seem to remember Conservatives doing the same thing when it came to the FALSE INTELLIGENCE in Iraq…
May 16th, 2009 at 6:26 pmJane,
I’m impressed with the passion you bring to an argument. I have found that I have been labeled many things much worse than “jerk” here simply by opening my mouth.
I’ll admit I haven’t researched the Bob Graham issue, but it isn’t relevant to my comments on Ms. Pelosi. She’s already been caught in a lie, didn’t you hear?
May 16th, 2009 at 6:35 pmI’m certain that ‘covert’ intelligence sources tell us that the rest of the world doesn’t trust us. So we should just declare war on them for this and send troops.
Oh wait, we have military bases in more countries than the rst of the world has elected representatives in their own government. Makes it easier. We can just telll the rest of the world we have be fibbing about human rights and they should just send us tribute. No checks, cash please.
May 16th, 2009 at 6:35 pmRHF,
I ususally don’t comment a lot on your posts because they are so illogical, but I have to point out that the CIA has to brief members of the legislative branch from time to time.
Are you agreeing with Ms. Pelosi that the CIA simply LIES to them all the time? Do you really believe the CIA would do this? Could they get away with it?
May 16th, 2009 at 6:37 pmTim Vaculik Says: I’ll admit I haven’t researched the Bob Graham issue, but it isn’t relevant to my comments on Ms. Pelosi. She’s already been caught in a lie, didn’t you hear?
If you want to accept her statements after the CIA claimed 4 briefings with Graham when his records say 1. And since you didn’t do your research, Graham knows how many aspirin he took for a headache in 1997.
May 16th, 2009 at 6:39 pmAre you agreeing with Ms. Pelosi that the CIA simply LIES to them all the time? Do you really believe the CIA would do this? Could they get away with it?
Are you really this simple, Timmy?
May 16th, 2009 at 6:40 pmWayne,
Sorry, but you are incorrect. It is a well-established fact that Ms. Plame was not covert and therefor not covered by provisions in the law that make it a crime to reveal her identity! Had this been so, the prosecutor who went after Mr. Libbey would have prosecuted the actual leaker, Mr. Armitage. As I mentioned earlier, the actual leaker’s name was known to the prosecutor.
May 16th, 2009 at 6:42 pmAll good things must come to an end…
May 16th, 2009 at 6:45 pmTim Vaculik Says:
All good things must come to an end...
But in your case we can make an exception?
May 16th, 2009 at 6:47 pmSo the S stood for what if not for secret? Superb, simple, sex, standard?
May 16th, 2009 at 6:47 pmoh it stood for STUFF!
May 16th, 2009 at 6:50 pmIsn’t it amazing how the GNOP with their media and corporate power can twist the subject of the bush crime family’s torturous ways into Pelosi lied of having knowledge…. and with such malice and hatred.
May 16th, 2009 at 6:52 pmJebus. All this silly Repuke fuss over Nancy Pelosi is like somebody at Charles Manson’s trial for mass murder screeching that he had a DIME BAG OF POT — and nobody prosecuted him for it!!!
May 16th, 2009 at 6:55 pmand Tim, Armitage’s leak which might have been a slipup does not excuse the fact that the administration confirmed the leak to Novak and then ran away with it to discredit Valerie Plame and Joe Wilson…
May 16th, 2009 at 6:57 pmTimeeh here is engaged in whitewashing the Chimperor’s legacy.
So far, he refuses to call torture for what it is but he insists Nancy Pelosi is guilty of the same war crimes as the Chimperor, Dick, Dumbsfelt et al.
He keeps proving Scotter’s innocence by reminding us how Scotter was convicted of OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE, you moron. What part of cooperate with a FEDERAL INVESTIGATION don’t you get, Timeeh.
Next, Timeeh will reveal proof of WMDs found in Iraq and how the war is paying for itself.
TI – TI – TIMMEH!
May 16th, 2009 at 7:25 pmNo, Annie, it’s more like they should pin the murders on the guy who sold him the pot.
May 16th, 2009 at 7:38 pmNancy Pelosi may have been but in a dishonorable position, just like the rest of the country. The Cheney/Bush administration was extended the benefit of the doubt at many levels. Extending to them this degree of latitude has turned out to be a horrible mistake. The Cheney/Bush administration did not live up to their oath of office and abused the powers entrusted to them.
Make no mistake; the water boarding was partly for public consumption. The Muslims caused havoc in New York, we are going to get even with them. This is why they allowed small leaks to the public. I do not buy Cheney’s sanctimonious pontifications about the security. These guys were scared to death. They had to let the public feel they were taking effective measures. “The torture, the war in Iraq, homeland security to mane a few”. Their planning was terribly faulted. There was no effort to use the diplomatic approach.
They even ignored their own generals in the conduct of the Iraq war until a year ago.
Right now, Nancy Pelosi’s involvement is only minor. It blew up in her face. She extended to the Cheney thugs the benefit of the doubt and they abused it.
May 16th, 2009 at 7:38 pmI demand a full accounting.
I’ve been out working on my car and I don’t really feel like reading all of the posts from Tim Vacuous. Can someone catch me up?
Did Timmeh ever explain what Speaker Pelosi might be “culpable” for?
May 16th, 2009 at 7:42 pmIt didn’t really blow up in her face. The wingnuts are packing it with firecrackers and sparklers and desperately hoping to blow it up in her face.
May 16th, 2009 at 7:43 pmit’s striking ralph, how they defend torture, but not enough to not go after Pelosi…It’s almost like IOKIYAR…
May 16th, 2009 at 7:54 pmRalph, timmy seems to infer that Nancy is responsible for world famine, torture, weak coffee and Republican stupidity.
May 16th, 2009 at 7:55 pmLimbaugh thinks that Pelosi should resign, HAH…of course he’ll never admit torture is wrong…He probably gets oh never mind, I’m not going there…
May 16th, 2009 at 7:56 pmI guess Tim has a hole in his bucket guys.
Republicans are the party of the depraved.
May 16th, 2009 at 8:52 pmLast night on kgo John Rothmann one that calls himself a liberal once again en flamed his liberal audience. He brought up torture, but in a manipulative manner that torture could have been worth it if it saved US from another attack.
Many callers brought up the fact Wilkerson mentioned torture was being used to get a reason to go after Iraq.. and of
course Rothmann was outraged over that, said it was not true…. but apologized later when many links were sent to him proving it.
Too many question 9/11 so the topic of torture being used to thwart another attack is baseless.
So far, I have heard of no proven evidence of Pelosi’s so called guilt..none.. but see only malicious vultures going after her to save their GNOP ass.
May 16th, 2009 at 10:05 pmI would welcome it if a true…honest to goodness investigation is done…with a few conditions to it.
1. lets get all the facts on exactly what was learned on these presumed torture sessions.
2. Lets find out how many actual plots were learned about and possibly how many people where saved?
3. Lets find out who knew what and when in both parties?
4. Lets get Nancy under oath…and find out exactly what…when…how much…she really knew about…and compare it with what she has already stated in the press?
Keep the politics out of it and I bet some here might be surprised at the results.
May 17th, 2009 at 12:27 amRealityChecked, how you gonna “keep politics out of it” if you’re going after the ranking minority member of the house Intelligence Committee as if she were some mastermind of the whole operation?
Are you eager to put Pat Roberts under oath and find out what HE knows, and subject him to the same penalties you find appropriate for the Speaker? because he attended the same briefing as Mrs. Pelosi, AND he was in the majority. So it seems like whatever culpability you want to impart to Speaker Pelosi, Senator Roberts would have to share the same fate and then some. But I don’t hear wingnuts getting all fired up about Roberts.
May 17th, 2009 at 12:45 am4. Lets get Nancy under oath…and find out exactly what…when…how much…she really knew about…and compare it with what she has already stated in the press?
More important let’s get those that ordered the evil deeds under oath. I am not sure why this has become a what did Nancy know and when did she know it.
2. Lets find out how many actual plots were learned about and possibly how many people where saved?
If one person was saved the neocons would have leaked and soaked the news with that.
1. lets get all the facts on exactly what was learned on these presumed torture sessions.
And what member of the bush crime family is going to for once go under oath?
3. Lets find out who knew what and when in both parties?
Why is this even an issue? What ever happened to prosecuting those for illegal malicious behavior? Maybe the let’s find out who knew attitude is a tactic to draw attention away from the deed.
I say let’s hang the bastards so another country does not have to.
May 17th, 2009 at 1:04 amThe GOP elephant who trashed the china shop and held Nancy Pelosi as a captive witness who could not say anything by law now wants to blame Nancy Pelosi for seeing the busting of the china shop.
http://bit.ly/single_payer
May 17th, 2009 at 1:20 amheld Nancy Pelosi as a captive witness who could not say anything by law
Bingo.
This is an example of how disgustingly low these murderous bastards go:
So unfair to Nancy.
May 17th, 2009 at 1:37 amthat’s a good point you make there and makes the Republicans faux outrage even more malicious…
May 17th, 2009 at 3:48 amWould someone please explain to me why speaker Pelosi’s minor role in torturing people is such a big story, yet this
http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/05/15/investigator-up-to-100-detainees-have-died-in-us-custody/
is not?
Is it because,
!) most of the news media “journalists” are simply paid to write and think as they are told by their CIA and corporate handlers?
2) following stupid story lines handed to you by a political operator is a lot easier than doing real journalism?
3) most Americans are lazy hypocrites and have long time ago turned their backs on Jesus, Christianity, the 10 Commandments, the Golden Rule, and the hopes and dreams of the founding fathers?
4) most Americans now live in fear and are simply too afraid to learn what kind of country America really has become?
5) the republican party opertives become stooges and pawns of Taliban sympathizers, who eager to remake American culture and legal traditions, thereby defeating America from within?
6) the shadow Bush administration and its corporate allies are still very much in control and real news and solutions to real problems are just a distraction to making money?
7) the news media has evolved into a mechanism for creating stories and propaganda and herding sheep and not for reporting or analyzing news for a thinking public?
8) All of the above?
Very large reward for anyone able to answer this question convincingly.
May 17th, 2009 at 6:12 amWould someone please explain to me why speaker Pelosi’s minor role in torturing people is such a big story, yet this
http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/05/15/investigator-up-to-100-detainees-have-died-in-us-custody/
is not?
Is it because,
!) most of the news media “journalists” are simply paid to write and think as they are told by their CIA and corporate handlers?
2) following stupid story lines handed to you by a political operator is a lot easier than doing real journalism?
3) most Americans are lazy hypocrites and have long time ago turned their backs on Jesus, Christianity, the 10 Commandments, the Golden Rule, and the hopes and dreams of the founding fathers?
4) most Americans now live in fear and are simply too afraid to learn what kind of country America really has become?
5) the republican party operatives have become stooges and pawns of Taliban sympathizers, who are eager to remake American culture and legal traditions, thereby defeating America from within?
6) the shadow Bush administration and its corporate allies are still very much in control and real news and solutions to real problems are just a distraction to making money?
7) the news media has evolved into a mechanism for creating stories and propaganda and herding sheep and not for reporting or analyzing news for a thinking public?
8) All of the above?
Very large reward for anyone able to answer this question convincingly.
May 17th, 2009 at 6:18 amRealityCheck Says:
I would welcome it if a true…honest to goodness investigation is done…with a few conditions to it.
If it truly is an “honest to goodness investigation,” we don’t need any other conditions put on it. I favor appointing a Special Prosecutor whose integrity cannot be questioned by either party. I nominate David Iglesias for the job. Many on the left believe he is honest, and if anyone on the right believes differently, then they might end up admitting they fired him for political reasons, so they’ll keep quiet.
1. lets get all the facts on exactly what was learned on these presumed torture sessions.
Right there you contradicted yourself. There is nothing to “presume” about the torture – it happened. We waterboarded some prisoners. Waterboarding is torture. Torture is against the law. Furthermore, treaties we signed say that there is no justification whatsoever for torturing anyone. It makes no difference what we allegedly learned from torturing people, because it would never justify doing it. That is a right-wing frame that has been going around and it has to stop right now. We tortured people and it makes no difference what was learned from that, it was a War Crime to do it at all.
2. Lets find out how many actual plots were learned about and possibly how many people where saved?
Let’s not because it is irrelevant. This is another right-wing frame and it is a false one. The idea is that “if one American life was saved from torture then it was worth it.” This is wrong. Plainly and simply wrong. The ends do not justify the means. Torture is illegal. Torturing people picked up on a battlefield is a War Crime.
3. Lets find out who knew what and when in both parties?
When you say “what and when”, you are referring to the incidents of torture committed in our name. You are using yet another right-wing framing to deflect the focus away from the people who ordered and authorized the torture to who was complicit in it. That comes second. First you have to admit that it was torture, it was illegal, and it was ordered from the top of our government.
4. Lets get Nancy under oath…and find out exactly what…when…how much…she really knew about…and compare it with what she has already stated in the press?
What Nancy Pelosi knew before she became Speaker is irrelevant and yet another right-wing frame. The “what she knew” that you refer to is torture authorized by Bush and Cheney. That needs to be your focus. The people who need to be put under oath are Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rice. What about the Republican Members of Congress who were briefed and who claimed that Pelosi was told everything? Why isn’t anyone of them coming out and contradicting her? How come I don’t hear any of them say, “I sat there and listened to the same briefing that Nancy did, and the CIA specifically said they were using the techniques”? Because they would be admitting that they were just as complicit as they are accusing Pelosi of being. Again, the right wing is trying to frame this as a conspiracy between the Congress and the White house in order to deflect scrutiny from the conspiracy that happened first in the White House.
Keep the politics out of it and I bet some here might be surprised at the results.
May 17th, 2009 at 12:27 am
I believe that if David Iglesias were appointed as Special Prosecutor with subpoena power to investigate this, the politics will be kept out of it. And do note that I am specifically suggesting a Republican to do the investigating. Just you don’t be surprised when the Special prosecutor eventually points out that even though some Members of Congress knew about what was happening, they were prevented by law from revealing anything. And the only people they could reveal it to were the people doing it.
May 17th, 2009 at 9:19 amThe damnable misery of having a group of irrational people with no problem lying, stealing, conjuring up false flag incidents such as 911 being construed as a political party. In my life, I’ve never seen the Republican party do ANYTHING for the common man. I’ve seen them in very supporting calming ways talk the common man OUT of what they want or need as in medical care, decent work for decent pay, some form of retirement financing and etc. The republicans do not represent ANYTHING that one can clearly read in the US Constitution by mentally unfettered readers. I HAVE seen them read passages of this instrument and explain it in ways that are mindless hyperbole, and watch many average americans squeal with delight. Perhaps the most notable example is the Second Amendment to the Constitution. It is only one sentence, and for those not sexually attracted to guns, it clearly involves military matters which no longer apply to the american people. Further, there has been no effort by this President to take away their guns. Now George Bush said of the constitution, “It’s only a goddamned piece of paper!” All of these ‘patriots’ had nothing to say about that, nor the countless violations of First, Fourth, and many other amendments to this Document. Sadly the people have no control over there allegedly ‘elected’ officials because 100% of the time that involves clear REAL knowledge of the behavior of the government, and how that knowledge compares to the rules. All this clandestine nonsense would have to cease, and the crazies like Bush Cheney stopped from occupying the White House and government when it was clearly and unequivocally discovered that They WERE NOT ELECTED IN ‘00, NOR ‘04. This is outed vetted fact, and a sad note in the already sordid history of this country. It’s unlikely this will ever be investigated despite the plethora of data, factual and evidential, that clearly obviate this crime. Then their is 911. The US CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY, MOUSSAD, ISI, AND BRITS are the culprits here. Scientists world wide have laid waste to republican lies. This too, will likely go investigated leaving these sick deviants extant, and at large. The repubicans are not interested in rational debate, honest elections, telling the truth. They would NEVER BE ELECTED ON ANY OF THEIR REAL PLATFORM.
May 17th, 2009 at 7:07 pmthe very same Republicans would be condemning Pelosi if she HAD revealed the details of the waterboarding briefing for breaking the law…even though that would have been the courageous thing to do…
Republicans should be the ones to own up to this…but they are the masters of deflecting any blame or responsibility away from their actions…
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Contards should be calling for investigations if they were Patriotic. They are not.
It is like a Baseball game for these Morons. It is all about winning and not about Evil.
911=Inside Job
USA=Nation of Idiots
May 18th, 2009 at 9:21 amTools used to hide or cover up the truth:
May 18th, 2009 at 10:37 am1. Destroy evidence: If it doesn’t exist, it can’t be examined
2. Create distractions: (Here are a couple common tactics)
a) The “false debate” distraction: False debates are very useful because they lend credibility to the
lie while distracting people away from questions that would expose it. Take our “suicide” story above.
If people can be manipulated into a heated argument over “why” Bob killed himself, (because his boss
fired him just a week before Christmas, because his heartless wife left him a week later, because he
had a secret drug problem, etc.) the issue of whether or not Bob actually did kill himself gets lost.
In effect, the false debate turns the lie into an established truth – a foundation on which the
subsequent debate is built. (Clearly, two people cannot argue about why Bob killed himself without
first accepting the “fact” that he did kill himself.) As they become increasingly sure of their position,
they become increasingly dependent on the lie that supports it. Regardless of which side of the debate
they’re on, they will unite in protecting the false assumption on which their whole argument rests. In
an odd way, defending the lie becomes an act of self-defense from that point forward.
-It goes without saying that once one “false debate” has been established; other “false debates” can
grow up around it. In very little time, the masses can become hopelessly tangled in a web of falsities -
endless arguments without merit. When this happens, only strong evidence can destroy the illusion -
evidence that turns their attention back to the legitimate starting point; killing all descendents of the
original lie.
b) The “major crisis” distraction: The power of a “major crisis” to manipulate the masses is well
known among the ruling elite. Whether the crisis is intentionally created or naturally occurring,
nothing enables them to more effectively expand power and direct the consciousness of their subjects.
-To silence dissent, monopolize media talking points, rationalize the irrational, or completely bury an
unwanted topic, nothing beats a crisis. (Especially when that “crisis” is war.)
3. Attack the messenger: If evidence cannot be destroyed, false debates aren’t sufficient, or the crisis
can’t shake off growing dissent, the one remaining option to keep you from contemplating the
evidence is to attack the messenger. When this is done, the conspirators’ assertion is obvious: “What
this person claims is absurd and any evidence he presents isn’t credible.”
Now ask yourself an obvious question: Why would it be necessary to vilify a person making
“absurd claims” backed with “no credible evidence?” Isn’t that something reasonably intelligent people
could determine by looking at the evidence themselves? Do we really need (or want) others to decide
for us what we should and shouldn’t take into consideration? -In a “free” and “democratic society?” I
don’t think so.
Wait a minute here… we found out about potential attacks by waterboarding. It is pretty screwed up that these terrorists film themselves cutting people’s heads off and we are going after our own CIA and military for WATERBOARDING to make sure they don’t, i dunno, CRASH ANOTHER PLANE INTO A BUILDING AND KILL THOUSANDS. I’m not sure you people understand the precedent that is being set here. In the future people in intelligence are sure as hell not going to go all out to find out information because they’ll know that their own government will go after them and potentially try to put them in jail as some sort of war criminal. Once we start pulling out fingernails or hooking up car batteries up to people’s nether-regions we’ll talk. But our intelligence agents waterboarding to help find out what these terrorists are going to do…. Don’t go screaming “bushlover” at me, he raised government spending more than even Clinton did, this is really common sense people. They cut off our heads and kill thousands of CIVILIANS in NY, we arn’t allowed to waterboard their active terrorist agents? This country is in a lot of trouble if a lot of people think like the people on these message boards. Someone please explain to me how I’m wrong. Typically people just call me names and tell me i’m some Rush Limbaugh Loving Zombie or some other such thing, i’d really like someone to give me an honest intellectual argument about how I’m wrong here. I came to my current opinions because they made the most sense to me; if i hear something else that makes more sense and my own cognition can’t find too many faults in it i have no problem changing my mind.
May 20th, 2009 at 12:33 pm