Newly-Disclosed Memo Shows Bush Was Presented With Legal Alternative To Torture Program
Newly-Disclosed Memo Shows Bush Was Presented With Legal Alternative To Torture Program
A newly-disclosed 2005 memo, authored by then-State Department counselor Philip Zelikow, then-Acting Deputy Secretary of Defense Gordon England, and then-Deputy Assistant Secretary for Detainee Affairs Matthew Waxman, gave President Bush “clear and unequivocal advice encouraging a detainee interrogation system that followed humane practices that adhered to US and international law.” The memo was authored as the Bush administration was seeking a “fresh approach” handling terror detainee and just weeks after the OLC issued its second round of torture memos.
In the memo, the three Bush administration officials argue that the President should appoint a “special board” to “review general U.S. government detainee policy and operations” and “evaluate issues of effectiveness and intelligence value.”
While that review was taking place, the authors recommended that U.S. forces treat detainees in the so-called war on terror as if they were “civilian detainees under the law of war.” “This is the system generally being used by our forces in Iraq. Adopting this interim approach allows us to handle the detainees on a well understood basis that gives our forces clear, unambiguous guidelines for conduct,” they wrote, adding:
WE ARE NOT SAYING THAT THESE DETAINEES ARE, NECESSARILY ENTITLED TO THIS STATUS. TO BE CLEAR: WE ARE GIVING THEM A TEMPORARY STATUS THEY DO NOT DESERVE. BUT WE ARE NOT DOING THIS FOR THEM. WE ARE DOING IT FOR US.
Their approach would have harmonized detainee treatment procedures in Guantanamo, Afghanistan, and Iraq. Jane Mayer explained in The Dark Side that the differing guidelines for detainee treatment in the three different theaters had, in part, lead to the abuses at Abu Gahrib.
As the Washington Post’s Barton Gellman explained in his account of the Cheney vice presidency, Angler, the memo was a “top-to-bottom assault on the Cheney-Addington legal model. Its authors proposed to seek legislation, acknowledge secret prisons, give the worst of the terrorists Geneva rights, and bring them back within the full jurisdiction of American courts.” But the memo’s arguments were not well received. As Gellman writes, after Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice showed the memo to an “intrigued” President Bush, it was shown to other high-level administration officials:
England, Rumsfeld’s deputy, brought the paper to his boss…Rumsfeld reacted coldy. He had not authorized this. … Rumsfeld directed that all copies be withdrawn from circulation and shredded. (p. 349)
National Security Adviser Steve Hadley canceled a discussion of the document upon hearing about its contents from Cheney’s office. Zelikow explained his goal in writing the memo last week in testimony before the Senate Judiciary committee saying that he wanted to “effectively prohibit ‘cruel, inhuman, and degrading’ treatment of detainees.”
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?….you don’t say!
May 18th, 2009 at 1:56 pmZelikow explained his goal in writing the memo last week in testimony before the Senate Judiciary committee saying that he wanted to “effectively prohibit ‘cruel, inhuman, and degrading’ treatment of detainees.”
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And Zelikow is STILL alive???
Quell miraculous!!!!
May 18th, 2009 at 1:59 pmFolks, the memo is dated 2005. Da horses were long gone from the barn by that time. But Zelikow deserves a great deal of praise for taking the stance. At least he said something.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:02 pmonly scared little terrified right wingers support torture
May 18th, 2009 at 2:03 pmThis should be headlined, not the smoke blowing over Pelosi and Graham… This means there were honest people in government, but that the dishonest, bullying dimwits overruled them.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:03 pmEverything about this is truly disturbing.
http://www.truthout.org/051509J
If Sy Hersch is right, America is a moral shell of its former self.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:05 pmObama is letting these clowns dig their own graves and is making “partisan revenge” a very hard sell when he decides to act decisively on this issue. As more information comes out, this is really one of the only conclusions I can draw.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:05 pmIt’s not the crimes we already know about…
It’s the ones yet to be revealed that will blow our minds.
So far, spot on.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:05 pmthe three Bush administration officials argue that the President should appoint a “special board” to “review general U.S. government detainee policy and operations” and “evaluate issues of effectiveness and intelligence value.”
Dipshit Dumbya was too busy golfing to bother himself with the arduous detail of reading any of their recommendations – assuming they made any in a timely manner.
Incompetence of immense proportions at play.
We’re talking a country without a Captain, for 8 G*DDAMNED YEARS.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:06 pmEh, stateofthedivision…
It really bothers me when writers use grammar that assumes we’re ALL responsible for the crimes of George W. Bush.
I’m not. Most Americans are not. Most Americans would never have allowed him to be installed if they’d known about the crimes of his FIRST SIX MONTHS in office…much less get re-selected in ‘04…
Don’t lay that on the rest of us. We are not to blame for his kleptocracy, murder sprees, etc. He is, and Congress is to blame for not removing him from office when they had the chance AND the responsibility to do so.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:07 pmThe Christian Soldier Donny Rumsfeld wasn’t interested in humane treatment, eh?
Phil Zelikow is the little weasel who was executive director of the whitewash 9/11 Commission–I don’t trust his motives.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:08 pmHe tried to cover your butts you silly lawbreakers, you the Bush administration that is. But, true to form, you ignored it and thought you could do whatever you wanted. What’s that called? Hubris?
May 18th, 2009 at 2:08 pmTweedster…I hope you’re right…but…
How long do we have to wait? For Obama to move? For him to actually lead on this issue, and not say crap like “It’s time to move on”, etc?
Six months? A year? Two or three?
I’m tired of waiting and watching nothing get done.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:09 pmRantingTommy Says:
only scared little terrified right wingers support torture
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And the closet S&M freaks… don’t forget them…
Torture = Republican Viagra…
May 18th, 2009 at 2:10 pmDaddy-O Says:
It really bothers me when writers use grammar that assumes we’re ALL responsible for the crimes of George W. Bush.
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I agree. I’ve been opposed to this shite from Day One.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:11 pmHaven’t you seen that bumperstrip on the back of Bush’s jeep that says “I’d rather be torturing?”
May 18th, 2009 at 2:13 pmBUT WE ARE NOT DOING THIS FOR THEM. WE ARE DOING IT FOR US.
This says everything about the GOP.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:15 pmDaddy-O Says:
Tweedster…I hope you’re right…but…
How long do we have to wait? For Obama to move? For him to actually lead on this issue, and not say crap like “It’s time to move on”, etc?
My money says that once there is some headway in passing healthcare and climate legislation, the gloves will start to come off. At the rate things are being disclosed now, I think it may happen sooner rather than later, but I don’t think Obama wants to spend political capital fighting off the reich wing nutsos and MSM by giving ANY indication that this is some kind of political witch-hunt. I know that this calculation infuriates a lot of progressives, but I have to believe that this is one of the considerations Obama is making.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:16 pm“I still hear voices
May 18th, 2009 at 2:17 pmGod told me to torture you
I know I am loved”
Daddy-O Says:
Eh, stateofthedivision…
It really bothers me when writers use grammar that assumes we’re ALL responsible for the crimes of George W. Bush.
I’m not. Most Americans are not. Most Americans would never have allowed him to be installed if they’d known about the crimes of his FIRST SIX MONTHS in office…much less get re-selected in ‘04…
Don’t lay that on the rest of us. We are not to blame for his kleptocracy, murder sprees, etc. He is, and Congress is to blame for not removing him from office when they had the chance AND the responsibility to do so.
Sorry Daddy-O, but I will accept my part of the responsibility as an American citizen. BushCo did not operate in a vacuum. Our entire government and country is responsible for allowing it to happen. These sorts of things are not supposed to be able to happen here but they did and everyone carries some blame.
For proof, if we are not to blame why are we, as a nation, debating whether or not torture is acceptable?
May 18th, 2009 at 2:18 pmCue wingnuttia attack on Zellikow for wanting to treat terrorists humanely and have them within our border….5….4…3…2..
May 18th, 2009 at 2:21 pmGee, I can’t imagine why anyone would want to eradicate all copies of that and pretend it never existed.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:25 pmBush was intrigued about the Law?
Let’s see how intrigued he is about the gallows.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:27 pmHmmmm…the memo was dated from 2005. Which party was in the majority back then? Which party controlled the government with an iron fist back then? Who was the speaker of the house back then and chose to remain silent? What did he know and when did he know it? Oh I forgot the former speaker of the house back then was Dennis Hastert, he apparently was too busy cruising the buffet circuit and trying to get a highway built in his home state which was near some property he owned.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:27 pmchiroptera toasterhead Says:
Gee, I can’t imagine why anyone would want to eradicate all copies of that and pretend it never existed.
You mean other than it was illegal to do so? Those Repubs just love playing the bad boy when it comes to laws.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:27 pmspring heeled jack Says:
Bush was intrigued about the Law?
May 18th, 2009 at 2:28 pm“““““““““““““““““““““““““““““`
Bush was intrigued about breaking the law. Just as he did with the FISA law.
But, but, but,…Nancy Pelosi…..
May 18th, 2009 at 2:29 pmIf the last 9 years have taught us nothing else, we should have learned that Republicans think laws are for the little people. Real Republicans answer to a higher voice…the one in their head.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:32 pmShorter chimpy:“I’d rather torture and break the law., Hell, I AM the law”
May 18th, 2009 at 2:33 pmI pray that more and more people come out in public with the illegal things the Bush administration did so that it will come to a point where President Obama’s DOJ will have no choice but to investigate.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:33 pmThey should just rename DC to CP [for CrackPots]
May 18th, 2009 at 2:36 pmIf I saw all of this nonsense in a movie, I’d probably walk out in the middle because it would be too ridiculous to believe. And, yet, here it is…happening in real life. Unbelievable. I just hope this real-life story has a cinematic happy ending–with Bush, Cheney, and company going to jail where they belong.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:39 pmIn other words, Cheney had been torturing people for 3 years before Rice / Zelikow were even aware of it?
No wonder Cheney is in his ‘death lap’ of denial!
May 18th, 2009 at 2:39 pmI have no faith that obama will do anything about this. I hope I’m wrong and will take the beatdown and the “I told you so”s with a smile if I’m wrong. But…
May 18th, 2009 at 2:39 pmDaddy-O, you can parse it however you want.
If America’s government ordered sodomizing of children in custody, the world will see us as a shell of our former moral self.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:39 pmHoodathunktick Says:
Real Republicans answer to a higher voice…the one in their head.
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Huh… and I always thought Republicans were talking out their Cheneys…
Come to think of it… considering how much of the time they seem to spend w/ their heads up their Cheneys… perhaps those voices actually are one and the same after all…
May 18th, 2009 at 2:41 pmI keep hearing the David Bowie song This is Not America in my head…
Falcon and the Snowman was a good movie, btw.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:44 pmTRoHS, it gives the voices that echo chamber effect.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:44 pmZimzone Says:
In other words, Cheney had been torturing people for 3 years before Rice / Zelikow were even aware of it?
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Now THAT is an interesting question. But I do believe we’ve seen Rice’s name linked to torture before 2005. There have been statements made of late that indicate the Admin was torturing before the memos were produced or Congress was briefed.
What an FFFFFFFF-in’ mess…
Bush’s Enduring Legacy™!!!
May 18th, 2009 at 2:44 pmHoodathunktick Says:
TRoHS, it gives the voices that echo chamber effect.
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Kinda like reverb???
May 18th, 2009 at 2:45 pmstateofthedivision Says:
If America’s government ordered sodomizing of children in custody, the world will see us as a shell of our former moral self.
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Dude… the reality is bad enough as it is, w/out you self-righteously laying out hypotheticals and using it as an excuse to berate people.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:45 pmHaving a debate about the morality of torture is sort of like debating whether sh*t tastes bad.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:46 pmZimzone Says:
In other words, Cheney had been torturing people for 3 years before Rice / Zelikow were even aware of it?
Last I checked they were torturing people before they even told Nancy about it.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:50 pmHoodathunktick Says:
Having a debate about the morality of torture is sort of like debating whether sh*t tastes bad.
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Can’t say that any better.
“Dang… that’s Moose Turd Pie… but it’s GOOD!!!!
May 18th, 2009 at 2:51 pmspring heeled jack Says:
I keep hearing the David Bowie song This is Not America in my head…
Great song!
I just watched David Gilmore’s Gdansk, Poland show. He was doing a tribute to the Solidarity movement’s 30th anniversary.
Wow!
Mr.Gilmore certainly can claim stake to one of Rock’s greatest guitarist / singer / writer. Comfortably Numb ended the 2 hr show to thunderous applause.
My point?
May 18th, 2009 at 2:51 pmDavid Gilmore & Roger Waters were among the first, (I know, Zappa pioneered this), rockers to find political parody and human rights violations worthy of song. Kudos to them both.
It’s funny how the Right can see human life in stem cells but not in Muslim men.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:51 pmspring heeled jack Says:
… but not in Muslim men.
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Or other people’s children…
May 18th, 2009 at 2:52 pmKinda like reverb???
Unlike most of the Dem types who are familiar with reverb and echo from hippy concerts, this phenomenon would freak a Repub out so they would assume divine intervention.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:53 pmHoodathunktick Says:
… this phenomenon would freak a Repub out so they would assume divine intervention.
________________
Or considering where they typically keep their heads wedged, mebbe evendivine INSERTION…
May 18th, 2009 at 2:55 pmAs in living with one’s head inserted in the anal cavity is what god intended?
I’ll have to check with Daryl.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:57 pmYou know what they say, Hooda…
God SHED his grace…
May 18th, 2009 at 3:00 pmRepublic, It’s what Sy Hersch reported and is in the Truthout link.
Hersh: “Debating about it, ummm … Some of the worst things that happened you don’t know about, okay? Videos, um, there are women there. Some of you may have read that they were passing letters out, communications out to their men. This is at Abu Ghraib … The women were passing messages out saying ‘Please come and kill me, because of what’s happened’ and basically what happened is that those women who were arrested with young boys, children in cases that have been recorded. The boys were sodomized with the cameras rolling. And the worst above all of that is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking that your government has. They are in total terror. It’s going to come out.”
Is nobody reading today?
May 18th, 2009 at 3:01 pmWhat a sad state of affairs we are in. and yet we still have Cheney on his, “I did it and I’m proud we did it”, tour. Why does he get a platform to speak his evil??
May 18th, 2009 at 3:17 pmstateofthedivision Says:
Is nobody reading today?
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Gee… silly me… I guess I just reach a point where I quit reading. I vaguely recall reading that Sy Hersh piece and deciding I really didn’t need to wallow in even more painful information I couldn’t do anything about.
What more do I need to know?
I personally went on strike 30 years ago. There hasn’t been a single day in 3 decades when I haven’t despised the hypocritical mess this country has always been. Have any idea how many times I’ve been told to shut up over the years?
Threatened? Ridiculed? Marginalized?
I’m surprised I can talk anymore, considering how many times I’ve bitten my tongue over the years.
So what am I PERSONALLY to do?
Apologize to you for being a disappointment?
Berate myself some more because I couldn’t stop the Bush Admin by myself?
Leave the country? Leave the planet? What?
You come here endlessly and point your finger… but do you ever have any ideas on how to fix things?
May 18th, 2009 at 3:18 pmSurprised they weren’t executed for this advice!
May 18th, 2009 at 3:19 pmThere is not a single soul in this administration or the last who gave a rat’s butt about what terrorists felt or thought. The only thing they are afraid of is what the American public is going to think of their own government when they find out what has been done in their name.
And that includes the seated President.
May 18th, 2009 at 3:21 pmDid you see that? It’s a third shoe flying at G. Dubyas’ head. When’s the forth, fith, sixth ….?
Those these morons in JAIL!!!!
May 18th, 2009 at 3:21 pmRumsfeld the document shredder. Cheney also shreds documents. Rumsfeld, cheney, and bush tortured a lot of people. Are the special forces still torturing people somewhere? How about cheney’s squad of assasins, are they having a nice day today?
Republicans are the party of the depraved.
May 18th, 2009 at 3:23 pmIt’s just bone stupid for people to be demanding that Barack Obama prosecute the Bush administration. It is not his call and it gives credence to the unitary executive theory.
May 18th, 2009 at 3:29 pmOS Says:
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Time to flag this one out of here.
May 18th, 2009 at 3:29 pmDru Phlea Says:
It is not his call and it gives credence to the unitary executive theory.
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Whose call is it then? Congress? the DoJ?
May 18th, 2009 at 3:30 pmDoJ
May 18th, 2009 at 3:35 pmEngland, Rumsfeld’s deputy, brought the paper to his boss…Rumsfeld reacted coldy. He had not authorized this. … Rumsfeld directed that all copies be withdrawn from circulation and shredded. (p. 349)
So much for all that religious BS and scriptures Rumsfeld?! Evil done in the name of Gawd is A-OK!
May 18th, 2009 at 3:36 pmOS Says:
The law firm employee who testified [... blah blah blah... woof woof woof... yadda yadda yadda ...] he had already heard of the appointment of Robert B. Fiske Jr. as special counsel.
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When posting like that, it’s considered good manners to CITE YOUR SOURCE. Fortuantely, one can easily find it w/ GOOGLE.
And in this case, clearly, you got that quote from…
***Drum roll***
That notorious, drug-addled gasbag, Rush Limbaugh!!!
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http://curmudgeonlyskeptical.is-a-chef.net/2007/6/clinton-abzug-and-schroeder/
Here are 9 minutes from Rush’s March 9, 1994
show. The news back then revolved around Robert Fisk’s
appointment as Special Whitewater prosecutor, and revelations that a
Rose law employee … well here:
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No wonder you didn’t cite your source. You would have been laughed out of here instantly.
May 18th, 2009 at 3:37 pmDru Phlea Says:
DoJ
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I wasn’t trying to be snarky, BTW. Just curious as to what the proper approach would be.
Can Holder make this decision on his own?
And since the DoJ is part of the Admin, how can he be free from WH pressure?
May 18th, 2009 at 3:38 pmThe DoJ is not obligated to the White House, it is supposed to act independently of the White House, indifferent to the what is politically popular or convenient. If it doesn’t, we have what we had over the past 8 years (Gonzo/Mukasey(sp) & bunch).
May 18th, 2009 at 3:43 pmOS Says:
How’s that boot leather taste?
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I dunno… how’s this shoe taste?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vince_Foster
Vincent Walker Foster, Jr. (January 15, 1945 – July 20, 1993) was a Deputy White House Counsel during the first term of President Bill Clinton, and also a law partner and friend of Hillary Rodham Clinton. His death was ruled a suicide by multiple official investigations, but remains a subject of interest among conspiracy theorists.
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There have been three official investigations into Foster’s death, all of which concluded that he committed suicide.[17]
The first was by the United States Park Police in 1993, in whose jurisdiction the original investigation fell. Due to Foster’s position in the White House, the Federal Bureau of Investigation assisted in the investigation. Investigations by a coroner and Independent Counsel Robert B. Fiske, in a 58-page report released in 1994, also concluded that Foster had committed suicide.[12]
Conspiracy theories of a cover-up still persisted. After a three-year investigation, Whitewater independent counsel Kenneth Starr[18][19] released a report in 1997 also concluding that the death was a suicide.[12]
In addition, two investigations by the U.S. Congress found that Foster committed suicide.[12]
I see you’re wearing your tin-foil hat today…
And just out of curiosity, what would any of that have to do w/ BotchCo’s torture schemes? Smoke screen much?
May 18th, 2009 at 3:48 pmDru Phlea Says:
The DoJ is not obligated to the White House…
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I hear you. It is just hard to believe, especially in light of the 20 years, that a truly independent investigation will be allowed.
May 18th, 2009 at 3:50 pmOS Says:
Change the subject much after you’ve had your ass handed to ya? ROFL! ;)
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Since you seem to have a reading comprehension problem…
What did that have to do w/ the topic of the thread?
What VALID, meaningful point did you fantasize you were making?
Going back, oh, 15 YEARS to flog a dead horse, or in this case, a dead lawyer?
Oh… I know… it was a Clinton Did It Too™ moment!!!
You look so stylish in that tin-foil hat.
May 18th, 2009 at 4:01 pmRepublic, I mostly post news bit and sometimes add a comment. You are free to ignore them.
May 18th, 2009 at 4:10 pmWhy is it that Republican adore puppets so?
May 18th, 2009 at 4:28 pmThey will all get away with it. You don’t really think anyone will be prosecuted for torture, do you? Government can do what they want. They will all protect each other.
May 18th, 2009 at 5:32 pmRumsfeld is a name that is conspicuously absent from the torture debate.
May 18th, 2009 at 5:33 pmOS, who many guns and ammo have you stockpiled as of today? Are you old enough to own a gun?
May 18th, 2009 at 6:08 pmPROSECUTION NOW!
May 18th, 2009 at 6:46 pmOS Says: 56
YOU are a waste of time and stupid too
May 18th, 2009 at 9:21 pmOz you are unbelievably stupid. ROS gave you an epic beatdown. Showed you for the brainwashed moron you are and you give us the wingnut special olypics victory dance???? You are a moron, thanks for the free clown show
May 18th, 2009 at 9:25 pmHoodathunkit sed:
“For proof, if we are not to blame why are we, as a nation, debating whether or not torture is acceptable?”
That proves nothing. We are debating this odious subject only because sadists governed us for eight long years.
There was NOTHING you or I could have done to stop Bush. Not a d*mn thing, man. He stole and murdered and lied his way through history–and was asleep at the wheel the entire time. That’s quite an accomplishment, when you think about it.
No. If we’re guilty, then why aren’t we in jail? If I were guilty like these evil souls, I don’t think I could live with myself. And some folks, like one of the air traffic controllers who made a mistake on 9-11, go ahead and end their lives over it.
No. It’s a matter of sloppy writing, using the royal ‘we’ instead of keeping the focus on the actual criminals. Sloppy writing, not mass guilt.
May 18th, 2009 at 10:51 pmstateofthedivision sed:
“Daddy-O, you can parse it however you want.
“If America’s government ordered sodomizing of children in custody, the world will see us as a shell of our former moral self.”
Yes, it is parsing. But words mean something.
I really don’t think the world will see an entire country guilty where an elite illegal coup had taken place. Most of the rest of the world see Bush & CO as the criminals–not the entire nation. I’ll be a larger percentage of Europeans know how close the 2004 election was than percentage of Americans…because they’re paying attention.
Eh. Thanks for the replies, dude, and if we disagree, that’s cool with me.
May 18th, 2009 at 10:59 pmUnfortunately, for Mr. Zelikow, he has been identified as one of the ring leaders of the Israeli 9/11 attack on the World Trade Center, and is watched as the most dangerous Zionist in America.
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May 19th, 2009 at 5:57 amWe had a rogue government for eight years. Although we didn’t know all the details, some of us knew it. The most frightening thing about it is how docile we were.
May 20th, 2009 at 12:25 am