Cheney: Concern About Torture Is ‘Contrived Indignation And Phony Moralizing’
Cheney: Concern About Torture Is ‘Contrived Indignation And Phony Moralizing’
Today, Vice President Cheney gave a speech at the right-wing American Enterprise Institute in response to President Obama’s speech on human rights. Cheney launched an aggressive defense of the Bush administration’s torture program by saying that it was necessary after the 9/11 terrorist attacks:
In the years after 9/11, our government also understood that the safety of the country required collecting information known only to the worst of the terrorists. And in a few cases, that information could be gained only through tough interrogations.
In top secret meetings about enhanced interrogations, I made my own beliefs clear. I was and remain a strong proponent of our enhanced interrogation program. The interrogations were used on hardened terrorists after other efforts failed. They were legal, essential, justified, successful, and the right thing to do.
Cheney also criticized critics of the Bush administration’s program, calling it “feigned outrage based on a false narrative. In my long experience in Washington, few matters have inspired so much contrived indignation and phony moralizing as the interrogation methods applied to a few captured terrorists.” He then claimed that these critics are attacking intelligence officers for trying to “avenge the dead of 9/11″ through torture:
I might add that people who consistently distort the truth in this way are in no position to lecture anyone about “values.” Intelligence officers of the United States were not trying to rough up some terrorists simply to avenge the dead of 9/11. … We sought, and we in fact obtained, specific information on terrorist plans.
Watch it:
Cheney has set up a straw man. Critics are not upset at intelligence officers for trying to “avenge the dead of 9/11″ by “rough[ing] up some terrorists.” People are upset at top Bush administration officials for authorizing human rights violations in order to pursue a political agenda.
As the 2008 Senate Armed Services Committee report made clear, interrogators at Gitmo were under “pressure” to produce evidence of ties between Iraq and al Qaeda, even though they were ultimately unsuccesful. “The more frustrated people got in not being able to establish that link…there was more and more pressure to resort to measures that might produce more immediate results,” said former U.S. Army psychiatrist Maj. Charles Burney.
In his attempt to justify torture because of the constraints the Bush administration was facing after 2001, Cheney referenced 9/11 25 times. “Iraq” was mentioned just twice.
When Cheney claims that he is speaking for the “little guys,” just keep in mind how popular he really is. Matt Yglesias has put together this helpful comparison:
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A bed of roses, no matter the thread count, contains thorns, there Dick. You made it, now sleep in it.
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May 21st, 2009 at 1:23 pmEat shit and die, Dick.
May 21st, 2009 at 1:27 pmThey were legal – No, waterboarding is a war crime.
Essential – No the FBI has more effective ways. You just wanted lies.
Justified – War Crimes are never justified, you sadistic Fcuk.
Successful – Prove it, oh that’s right you can’t because it wasn’t.
and the right thing to do – Nope, it was unethical, immoral and unAmerican.
I hope you (Cheney) rot in prison for the rest of your life.
And by the way, I believe it was you who ordered the Anthrax attacks against dems.
May 21st, 2009 at 1:29 pmCheney keeps on terrorizing the right wingers
Good thing that terrorism only works on the terrified and enough Americans decided to stop cowering and vote out the terrorists.
May 21st, 2009 at 1:29 pmNo Dick, we may just actually care about human beings that may well have not done anything wrong.
May 21st, 2009 at 1:29 pmEven if they did, we are America and don’t (shouldn’t) stoop to that level.
.
I’m sorry…
… Who’s the phony moralizer, D!ck?
.
May 21st, 2009 at 1:30 pmThank you Mr. Cheney for doing the work to keep us safe. People will not appreciate it,in fact they will continue to turn you into a villian. Gaining intel was important and we all know that these horrible terrorists were not going to talk if we asked nicely. Thank you!
May 21st, 2009 at 1:30 pmCheney is a pussy, just like the ignorant pansy trolls
right wingers are all about fear, all the time
they have to appeal to base emotions because logic defeats their positions
May 21st, 2009 at 1:31 pmsee? JohnM is terrorized because he is a pansy
May 21st, 2009 at 1:32 pmJohnM Says:
May 21st, 2009 at 1:30 pm
September 11, 2001.
May 21st, 2009 at 1:32 pmwhat i find is most telling is the very beginning of his speech when he’s thanking everyone for being there. he mentions he was on a committee to appoint a new trustee on the board of trustees of AEI….and decides to appoint himself! this man is a shameless meglomaniac who thinks he can do anything he wants!!
May 21st, 2009 at 1:32 pmJohnM ignores the fact that all useful/true info was gotten before torture and torture caused the detainee to clam up
not only is JohnM’s cowardice unjustified, it is counterproductive
what a pussy
May 21st, 2009 at 1:32 pmJohnM Says:
May 21st, 2009 at 1:30 pm
Tell it to the families of the 4299 dead troops from the Iraq War.
May 21st, 2009 at 1:33 pm.
Whereas some people prefer to play “Follow the Leader”…
… America was founded on “Following the Rule of Law”.
JohnM,
Why follow the criminal but so as to not be bound by the law?
Sorry JohnM, but in America, we put people like you behind bars.
And sometimes, we also supply nice white straight suits, too.
.
May 21st, 2009 at 1:33 pmThe Dick’s characterization of concern about torture as “contrived indignation and phony moralizing” is perfectly understandable.
As an authoritarian conservative, The Dick has no ability to see things from another’s perspective. He cannot conceive of such concern as legitimate, therefore he cannot conceive of others having legitimate concern. If he were to express such indignation, he knows it would be contrived, thus, anyone else who expresses it must also be contrived.
We see this utter lack of empathy in our trolls as well.
May 21st, 2009 at 1:33 pm.
Dear JohnM,
Intel?
Like the Aug. 6, 2001 Presidential Daily Briefing?
Yep, keep covering that ass.
.
May 21st, 2009 at 1:35 pmJohnM fails to realize that the “intel” that torture was designed to acquire was false links between Iraq and al Qeada in order to justify an invasion.
Or maybe JohnM realizes that, and is in favor of it.
There’s simply no telling with JohnM, who has shown no consistent values or logic in his body of work on this forum.
May 21st, 2009 at 1:36 pmWhere the he** is a microwave oven (or anything similar) when you need it. This criminal should be in jail, not up on a stage delivering a speech that is covered by the major media outlets.
May 21st, 2009 at 1:38 pmKept us safe? Bush/Cheney had been in office longer on 9/11 then President Obama has been in office. President Obama stopped an attack yesterday and with 4 more months under their belt Bush and Cheney were asleep at the wheel, at the least, and allowed the worst terrorist attack in our history to occur. Bite me Dick.
May 21st, 2009 at 1:38 pmRight wingers think America is weak.
They think that because THEY are weak.
America is strong enough to defeat terrorist criminals without resorting to war or torture.
right wingers are just too overwhelmed by their fear to realize that
May 21st, 2009 at 1:39 pm“feigned outrage based on a false narrative. In my long experience in Washington, few matters have inspired so much contrived indignation and phony moralizing as the interrogation methods applied to a few captured terrorists.”
He must have forgotten about Clinton and the blow job. I mean, talk about contrived indignation and phony moralizing. And don’t forget about the brain dead girl in Florida either. Come to think of it, fear-mongering is simply contrived indignation and phony moralizing. Cheney is the king of this. Cheney, you were wrong and you won’t get away with it.
May 21st, 2009 at 1:40 pmThis link is for you JohnM.
Now you can recite your prayer to an image of you lord from the comfort of an easy chair. Or you can print it out and tack it to
the ceiling.
Either way, you’re welcome.
May 21st, 2009 at 1:41 pmCheney: Concern About Torture Is ‘Contrived Indignation And Phony Moralizing’”
Really? For Dickhead Cheney and any other rightwing haters of American values and principles:
“Should any American soldier be so base and infamous as to injure any [prisoner]. . . I do most earnestly enjoin you to bring him to such severe and exemplary punishment as the enormity of the crime may require. Should it extend to death itself, it will not be disproportional to its guilt at such a time and in such a cause… for by such conduct they bring shame, disgrace and ruin to themselves and their country.” – George Washington, charge to the Northern Expeditionary Force, Sept. 14, 1775
May 21st, 2009 at 1:41 pmralph the wonder locust Says:
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JohnM fails to realize that the “intel” that torture was designed to acquire was false links between Iraq and al Qeada in order to justify an invasion.
Or maybe JohnM realizes that, and is in favor of it.
There’s simply no telling with JohnM, who has shown no consistent values or logic in his body of work on this forum.
Keep believing what sites like this tell you to believe. You should be thanking Cheney for keeping you safe after 9/11, but instead you decided to be brainwashed that terrorists that would cut your head off if they had a chance need to be treated the same way somebody suspected of mail fraud is even if they have information that is needed to save your life.
May 21st, 2009 at 1:43 pmMr Yglesias cherry-picks his empirical analysis. he failds to mention that Cheney’s approval rating is up 8 points since January.
May 21st, 2009 at 1:43 pmI feel actual indignation and moral outrage at these war crimes and atrocities that have been committed in the name of the American people. I know that a man with no principles like Dick Cheney would find that concept hard to understand.
May 21st, 2009 at 1:43 pmAfter the unprecedented political persecution the Republicans put President Clinton through Cheney has the gall to suggest that investigating war crime would be a new low in politics. This man must stink from the rot that emanates from where most people have a soul.
May 21st, 2009 at 1:43 pmlook at all these right wingers that just cannot believe that we are not quivering in our boots like they are
what a bunch of ignorant pansies
no wonder it is so easy for Cheney the terrorist to terrorize them
May 21st, 2009 at 1:45 pmDoodlebug Shayne Says:
Kept us safe? Bush/Cheney had been in office longer on 9/11 then President Obama has been in office. President Obama stopped an attack yesterday and with 4 more months under their belt Bush and Cheney were asleep at the wheel, at the least, and allowed the worst terrorist attack in our history to occur. Bite me Dick.
Apparently they have been working this group for a year or more. So not only did they get caught during Obama’s presidency, the Obama administration didn’t ignore what was going on before his inauguration. Unlike the Bush administration which brushed aside the Clinton administrations intelligence.
May 21st, 2009 at 1:46 pmDick’s attempt to tie al qaeda to Iraq using false confessions achieved through torture would have killed two birds with one stone for him.
May 21st, 2009 at 1:47 pmTying Iraq to aq would have in turn tied Iraq to 9-11 according to the official story.
John M says:
You should be thanking Cheney for keeping you safe after 9/11
Thanks but I’ll never forgive him for NOT keeping us safe ON 911.
May 21st, 2009 at 1:47 pmWhy do you right wingers think America is so weak?
Is it because you are weak?
Is it because you think our military and/or police are weak?
Is it because you really believe that macho bluster is not just a cover up for your own insecurities?
Why are liberals the only ones brave enough to defeat terrorists without resorting to war and torture?
May 21st, 2009 at 1:48 pmso, John, why are you such a pussy?
May 21st, 2009 at 1:49 pmCheney is trying to retain some of the huge amount of power he had while he was VP, possibly the most powerful man in the world. Must be awful to now be a nobody, and a nobody who may be charged with horrific crimes.
May 21st, 2009 at 1:49 pmDr. Hussein Matt Says:
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JohnM Says:
Thank you Mr. Cheney for doing the work to keep us safe. P
Apparently you missed 9/11.
Yes, that was horrible and should have been stopped, but it truly showed us what the terrorists are capable and because of that Bush and Cheney were determined not to let anything like that happen again. They learned from their mistakes and fought fiercely to keep you and your family safe. For that I thank them.
May 21st, 2009 at 1:49 pmHe’s scared shitless. He is only so visible right now because if the debate turns, he will be in the cross-hairs. This guy prefers back rooms with select company; he wouldn’t be giving high profile speeches if he weren’t desperate to protect himself.
May 21st, 2009 at 1:49 pmIt’s real easy to JUSTIFY anything when you are a DICTATOR which is exactly what Bush/Cheney gang became and we were duped [with never-ending LIES] into thinking they were ONLY TORTURING TERRORISTS. Let’s allow the full facts to come out on all their lies and misdeeds – not just torture.
May 21st, 2009 at 1:49 pm“Intelligence officers of the United States were not trying to rough up some terrorists simply to avenge the dead of 9/11.” — Cheney
No, of course not. Nobody ever said they were. Most of us know that intelligence officers (as well as the entire Bushney administration) didn’t give a flying fig about the dead of 9/11. What WAS important was twisting that tragic event and manufacturing a link between it and Iraq — to fulfill the neo-con agenda.
“We sought, and we in fact obtained, specific information on terrorist plans.” — Cheney
What they obtained — after much in the way of “enhanced interrogation techniques” — was a false “confession” of a link between Saddam Hussein and 9/11. We have yet to see any actual TRUE and USEFUL specific information on terrorist plans obtained through torture.
May 21st, 2009 at 1:49 pmListening to the old growler leaves me with one conclusion, and that’s that he needs to stay around! I wanted nothing more than to see him riding off into the West with his guns drawn, shooting at conservative friends. Now, as he has emerged from his cave everything he says divides the Republi-cons, and reminds us all of the Worst Administration in History.
May 21st, 2009 at 1:50 pmAFTER 9/11! Now wouldn’t it have been nice if they’d considered keeping us safe from DAY 1. And you are so delusional to call us brainwashed. We get our news from numerous sources. Obviously you get yours from Fox News.
You supporters of the regime that brought this country to its knees in any other ear would be punished with the criminals you support.
May 21st, 2009 at 1:50 pmhey John, there’s a suspected terrorists under you bed! BOO!
May 21st, 2009 at 1:50 pmCheney is EVIL, he’s the American Hitler. He still has not provided any “valuable information” he obtained from torturing. He can’t because it was all fabricated.
OBAMA gave a fantastic speech!!!
May 21st, 2009 at 1:51 pmJohnM Says:
“Thank you Mr. Cheney for doing the work to keep us safe. People will not appreciate it,in fact they will continue to turn you into a villian. Gaining intel was important and we all know that these horrible terrorists were not going to talk if we asked nicely. Thank you!”
What’s that sucking sound?
Jeebus!
May 21st, 2009 at 1:51 pmBe a man, you cowardly little cunt!
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Doodlebug Shayne Says:
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JohnM Says:
Keep believing what sites like this tell you to believe. You should be thanking Cheney for keeping you safe after 9/11,
AFTER 9/11! Now wouldn’t it have been nice if they’d considered keeping us safe from DAY 1. And you are so delusional to call us brainwashed. We get our news from numerous sources. Obviously you get yours from Fox News.
You supporters of the regime that brought this country to its knees in any other ear would be punished with the criminals you support.
Aren’t you glad they learned from those mistakes and did what was necessary to keep you safe?
May 21st, 2009 at 1:52 pmRepublicans are the elephant afraid of a mouse: stomping around in a panic, wrecking the place, all out of fear.
May 21st, 2009 at 1:53 pmJohn thinks torture kept him safe
As if he was ever in danger
He’s just a pussy
May 21st, 2009 at 1:53 pmI want this bast*rd Cheney to PROVE to me that ‘they’ saved thousands, if not hundreds of thousands’ of American lives with the ‘information they tortured out of terrorists’.
May 21st, 2009 at 1:54 pmshorter JohnM: “torture everyone! I’m scared!”
May 21st, 2009 at 1:54 pmIntelligence officers of the United States were not trying to rough up some terrorists simply to avenge the dead of 9/11.
sorry, but that argument – about ANY law enforcement officials – falls apart when watching such videos as i saw this morning on the today show… after a car chase, the man fleeing hit a ditch, rolled his van and was thrown from it, leaving him unconscience… and within seconds 5 or more officers ran up and commence to beating on his limp wrecked body…
it’s called adrenalin… and NObody’s immune to it…
May 21st, 2009 at 1:54 pmCheney is just addressing the tip of the iceberg. He vastly underestimates the alternative media of the internet. There’s much more to come out, my fellow Americans: even worse torture at black sites all over the world, homicides from torture, atrocities in Iraq and Afghanistan, assassination squads, goon squads at Gitmo, and possibly the truth about 9/11…
May 21st, 2009 at 1:55 pmJohn M says:
You should be thanking Cheney for keeping you safe after 9/11
Why should we thank Cheney — have you thanked your President Obama for keeping you safe since January 20, 2009, you little hypocrite?
As of now, the score is Obama 1, Terrorists 0. As compared to Terrorists 1, Bush 0 after 9/11.
May 21st, 2009 at 1:55 pmMadasHelinVA Says:
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I want this bast*rd Cheney to PROVE to me that ‘they’ saved thousands, if not hundreds of thousands’ of American lives with the ‘information they tortured out of terrorists’.
Then the documents need to be declassified that Cheney has requested but has been denied.
May 21st, 2009 at 1:55 pmThe Dogfather Says:
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John M says:
You should be thanking Cheney for keeping you safe after 9/11
Why should we thank Cheney — have you thanked your President Obama for keeping you safe since January 20, 2009, you little hypocrite?
As of now, the score is Obama 1, Terrorists 0. As compared to Terrorists 1, Bush 0 after 9/11.
Yes, I do thank President Obama for keeping us safe since he came into office. I hope that he continues the efforts made by the Bush administration and keeps us safe until he leaves office.
May 21st, 2009 at 1:57 pmJohn thinks America has to give up the rule of law to protect herself
John thinks America is as weak as he is
John is a coward
May 21st, 2009 at 1:57 pmIn his speech today President Obama said he’s seen the evidence and there IS NO PROOF OF ANYTHING THAT WAS LEARNED FROM THE TORTURE.
May 21st, 2009 at 1:58 pmMr. Cheney’s active efforts continuing to “sell” his acgions as legit tell us all we need to know. The Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld misadministration broke the law and did so early and often after taking office. They simply do not want Americans to look into their actions so they are doing what worked in the first place by continuing to yell, “Fire” in the crowded theater.
May 21st, 2009 at 1:58 pmJohnM Says: Aren’t you glad they learned from those mistakes and did what was necessary to keep you safe?
You’re straying from the Rushpublican talking points, Johnny boy — don’t you know that Herr Dumbya Bush never made any mistakes? I mean, just ask him — he’s been consistent in his denial that any mistakes were made…
If you’re gonna come on here just to get slapped around, you should try to stick to the Rushpublican message; that way, at least the 23%’ers will still love you even when nobody else does…
May 21st, 2009 at 1:58 pmCome on, JohnM, you ignorant coward, tell us why you are so scared!
First attack on the WTC:
Clinton was President
Perps captured, tried, convicted, and are still in prison
Second attack on the WTC:
Cheney, err, Bush was President
Perps still at large, 2 illegal invasions, curtailing of civil rights, illegal spying, total panic
Why are you right wingers such huge pussies?
May 21st, 2009 at 1:59 pmJohnM,
I would probably agree with thanking Cheney, too, had he not been a complete opportunist after 9/11, literally cashing in on real fear Americans had, furthering his own personal wealth with contracts, consolidating his ideology’s power, pissing on the Constitution at every turn available, ordering torture, and helping to exponentially radicalize a huge segment of the Muslim population due to American unilateralism and arrogance. With that last little bit, he left office having destabilized the world that much more, so what’s to thank for that?
The fact that you simplistically thank Cheney in some creepy bedtime prayer tone proves that his opportunism of American fear continues to work, and he continues to laugh all the way to the bank.
May 21st, 2009 at 1:59 pmJohnM says: Yes, I do thank President Obama for keeping us safe since he came into office. I hope that he continues the efforts made by the Bush administration and keeps us safe until he leaves office.
Your hope is internally incomprehensible, since by continuing the “efforts made by the Bush administration,” the only possible result is that our country is rendered less safe, as has been amply demonstrated over the last 8 years.
May 21st, 2009 at 2:00 pmYou know all those suicide bombings in Iraq?–there was one the other day that killed 3 American soldiers. An overwhelming majority of them are inspired by the way we treat our detainees.
May 21st, 2009 at 2:01 pmAren’t you glad they learned from those mistakes and did what was necessary to keep you safe?
You mean like read their briefings?!? You would think this is not a lesson to be learned when your “protecting” your country. It comes with the job.
May 21st, 2009 at 2:01 pmThe simple fact is a small rag tag bunch of desert dwellers attacked the greatest nation on earth DURING PRESIDENT CHENEY’S WATCH. No amount of looking back or historic revision will eliminate that one simple fact. No amount of speechifying or outright lying by the right side will eliminate that one simple fact.
Go away Dick!
May 21st, 2009 at 2:02 pmIn his speech today President Obama said that he’s seen the classified documents and there is nothing there that proves Cheney’s point. He says that there is because he knows these documents contain things that shouldn’t be made public. If they should why didn’t HE AND BUSH declassify them to prove their point. That being said, even if they had learned something useful IT IS STILL ILLEGAL!
May 21st, 2009 at 2:02 pmThe Dogfather Says:
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JohnM Says: Aren’t you glad they learned from those mistakes and did what was necessary to keep you safe?
You’re straying from the Rushpublican talking points, Johnny boy — don’t you know that Herr Dumbya Bush never made any mistakes? I mean, just ask him — he’s been consistent in his denial that any mistakes were made…
If you’re gonna come on here just to get slapped around, you should try to stick to the Rushpublican message; that way, at least the 23%’ers will still love you even when nobody else does…
Actually the number for Bush is at 41% now.
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/05/21/cnn-poll-favorable-opinion-of-dick-cheney-on-the-rise/
May 21st, 2009 at 2:03 pmI’m at a loss for words. Cheney is so evil I’m beginning to believe that he hates America. What a hateful old man.
May 21st, 2009 at 2:03 pmDoodlebug Shayne Says:
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JohnM Says:
MadasHelinVA Says:
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I want this bast*rd Cheney to PROVE to me that ‘they’ saved thousands, if not hundreds of thousands’ of American lives with the ‘information they tortured out of terrorists’.
Then the documents need to be declassified that Cheney has requested but has been denied.
In his speech today President Obama said that he’s seen the classified documents and there is nothing there that proves Cheney’s point. He says that there is because he knows these documents contain things that shouldn’t be made public. If they should why didn’t HE AND BUSH declassify them to prove their point. That being said, even if they had learned something useful IT IS STILL ILLEGAL!
I guess we will just have to take president Obama at his word then, since he won’t declassify them.
May 21st, 2009 at 2:05 pmTorture has made us less safe and is the singlemost recruitment tool for Al Qaeda. By endorsing torture, Cheney is a threat and is the enemy of the USA and should be treated so.
Simple facts for simple minds. That means you little Johnny.
May 21st, 2009 at 2:05 pmI don’t think a President and Vice President should have to “LEARN FROM THEIR MISTAKES”. Only Republicans would defend a failure on this level.
That being said I am not willing to destroy this country to feel safer. And if you cowards can’t deal with that you should move to a country that will make you feel all snuggly and get the hell out of here.
May 21st, 2009 at 2:05 pmSo cheney is right because of a poll number? Is that how the right side thinks? If the poll numbers rise – from the gutter – it makes Dick’s words accurate and true?
No wonder the GOP is toast – you govern through poll numbers, I guess – not with wisdom.
May 21st, 2009 at 2:05 pmJohn is too much of a pussy to even answer the question
I’ll try one more time:
John, why do you think AMERICA is too weak to defeat terrorists without resorting to war or torture?
Is it because YOU are weak?
May 21st, 2009 at 2:05 pmIncredible.
Morality lectures from a Sociopath.
Who’s next on their speech roster – Charles Manson?
And when are we going to hear about the young boys who were sodomized in Abu Ghraib while being videotaped???
May 21st, 2009 at 2:07 pmJohnM Says:
“Thank you Mr. Cheney for doing the work to keep us safe. People will not appreciate it,in fact they will continue to turn you into a villian. Gaining intel was important and we all know that these horrible terrorists were not going to talk if we asked nicely. Thank you!”
May 21st, 2009 at 2:07 pm======
JohnM, Cheney didn’t keep the US safe and we all know that. The intelligence information that was gained was all LIES. The “villian” is Cheney and Bush
So, Cheney, smells just slightly less like excrement and John the Pussy declares that means he is no longer a turd?
May 21st, 2009 at 2:07 pmMoreover, once again the Dick had to state that ‘a few bad apples at Abu Ghraib’ were wrong when they acted out and that was not the norm. Yeah right!
May 21st, 2009 at 2:08 pmWHY DIDN’T BUSH AND CHENEY DECLASSIFY THEM BEFORE THEY LEFT OFFICE? Because there is no there there. It’s just another pile of crap Cheney is using to deceive you ditto heads. You idiots would rather declassify important intel for your political gain than keep intel secret if necessary. ALWAYS PUTTING PARTY BEFORE COUNTRY.
May 21st, 2009 at 2:08 pmMr. Cheney, You Did Not Keep Us Safe
[...]
Next, consider this inconvenient truth: 9-11 happened on Mr. Cheney’s watch. Tom Kean, the Republican co-chair of the 9-11 Commission, has said the attacks could have been prevented. He’s right. That fact ought to weigh heavy on Mr. Cheney’s conscience. As should these:
* Before they took office, senior Bush administration officials were briefed repeatedly about the al Qaeda threat. Clinton National Security Adviser Sandy Berger told incoming National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, “I believe that the Bush administration will spend more time on terrorism in general, and on al Qaeda specifically, than any other subject.”
* Richard Clarke, the counterterrorism chief under both Clinton and Bush, presented the new Bush-Cheney administration with a plan to roll back al Qaeda. He briefed Dr. Rice on the plan. Nothing. In February, 2001, he briefed Vice President Cheney on the plan. Nothing. Time magazine has reported, “Some counterterrorism officials think there is another reason for the Bush administration’s dilatory response. Clarke’s paper, says an official, “‘was a Clinton proposal.’” If true, Bush and Cheney were allowing partisan politics to endanger America.
* On May 8, 2001 – three months after being briefed by Clarke – Cheney was instructed to chair a task force on terrorism. It did not meet before the 9-11 attacks.
* The FBI asked the Bush-Cheney Justice Department for58 million to beef up its domestic counterrorism capacity by hiring more translators, more field agents and more analysts. The Bush-Cheney Administration told the FBI no.
* Congressional Democrats sought to shift 800 million in the Pentagon budget from Star Wars (the Bush-Cheney faith-based missile defense system) into counterterrorism. The Bush-Cheney administration threatened to veto the entire defense budget. Congressional Republicans sided with Bush and Cheney, and blocked the Democrats from transferring the funds.
* In July, 2001, an FBI agent in Phoenix reported that Middle Eastern men – possibly al Qaeda – were taking flying lessons. He suggested that al Qaeda operatives might be trying to infiltrate the US civil aviation system. His warning was not acted on.
* On August 6, 2001 Pres. Bush received a classified briefing, the President’s Daily Brief. On that day, the headline blared: “Bin Laden Determined to Strike in U.S.” According to Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Ron Suskind, Bush told the briefer, “All right. You’ve covered your ass, now.” Dick Cheney, who has called the President’s Daily Brief “the family jewels,” presumably received the same briefing. Neither Bush nor Cheney acted on it. The “family jewels” were pearls before swine.
And the attack came. Over three thousand Americans were killed. [...]
this, and so much more:
May 21st, 2009 at 2:10 pmhttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-begala/mr-cheney-you-did-not-kee_b_203013.html
katy, the right wingers also conveniently leave out the ANTHRAX attacks that happened AFTER 9/11
all fear all the time
right wingers know the cowardice of their base
May 21st, 2009 at 2:11 pmJohnM doesn’t care as long as he’s safe. It’s the Republican way.
May 21st, 2009 at 2:11 pmI picture Cheney standing outside a shop with brick in hand, telling the shop owner he can protect his window against being broken with a brick if he is paid.
May 21st, 2009 at 2:12 pmRantingTommy Says:
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John is too much of a pussy to even answer the question
I’ll try one more time:
John, why do you think AMERICA is too weak to defeat terrorists without resorting to war or torture?
Because terrorists don’t like to talk when asked nicely.
May 21st, 2009 at 2:13 pmAnd that makes America weak how?
I didn’t ask what makes YOU weak.
May 21st, 2009 at 2:14 pmDoodlebug Shayne Says:
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spring heeled jack Says:
You know all those suicide bombings in Iraq?–there was one the other day that killed 3 American soldiers. An overwhelming majority of them are inspired by the way we treat our detainees.
JohnM doesn’t care as long as he’s safe. It’s the Republican way.
Keep up with the progressive talking point. The terrorist would be doing the same thing without any “torture”, they cannot be reasoned with.
May 21st, 2009 at 2:15 pmO, and actually John, the terrorist DID talk when asked nicely
He clammed up after being tortured
So, not only are you a coward, you are looking to false protection for your safety.
May 21st, 2009 at 2:15 pmshorter JohnM: “terrorists are super-villians and we are helpless to protect ourselves against them unless we become them”
May 21st, 2009 at 2:16 pmCheney is a WAR CRIMINAL and should be treated as such.
May 21st, 2009 at 2:17 pmCHENEY AND BUSH LEFT A PILE OF GARBAGE. I CAN’T WAIT UNTIL CHENEY HAS HIS FINAL DEFERMENT!!
I DISLIKE CHENEY AND BUSH AND THE CONSERVATIVES WHO SUPPORT THESE SCUMBAGS INCLUDING THE GOP.
Apologies for yelling but what Cheney and Bush did over the last 8 years is just numbing and disturbing; they wanted another attack to justify their use of “torture.”
May 21st, 2009 at 2:17 pm> “the safety of the country required collecting information known only to the worst of the terrorists.”
Like “the location of Osama bin Laden”?
May 21st, 2009 at 2:18 pmHmmmm, I’ll fix it for Cheney and the GOP: Concern About A Consensual Blowjob albeit an adulterous one is ‘Contrived Indignation And Phony Moralizing’
May 21st, 2009 at 2:18 pmCheney is just begging that the US gets attacked again
Fortunately, he is not now in a position to leave the back door open again.
May 21st, 2009 at 2:19 pmYou look at the facts, they all stopped talking when tortured. Besides, now we’re the terrorists, we’re the people who torture who ever we feel like it to make them say what we want them to say. WE HAVE TURNED INTO THE WORST KIND OF PEOPLE BECAUSE OF COWARDS LIKE YOU.
May 21st, 2009 at 2:19 pmI think John is just a pussy
May 21st, 2009 at 2:20 pm> “Because terrorists don’t like to talk when asked nicely.”
If you’re depending upon “the terrorists” for your intel, you’ve already failed.
May 21st, 2009 at 2:20 pmOUR HORRIBLE BEHAVIOR CREATED MORE PEOPLE WHO WOULD DO US HARM. YOU DON’T EVEN HAVE COMMON SENSE HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY HAVE AN INTELLIGENT THOUGHT.
May 21st, 2009 at 2:21 pmJohnM, if YOU WERE tortured, you would confess to killing JFK, you would confess to starting the Civil War, and you would confess to having been a witch in Salem in 1692…the point is, whatever your torturers WANT you to say, you’ll say…Case point, those being tortured knew that the torturers were ordered to “prove” the link between Al Qaeda and Saddam…Wouldn’t you know? They were tortured and look where we are. Torture apologists, be proud of the needless deaths that were caused by our illegal invasion, *sarcasm
May 21st, 2009 at 2:22 pmrepublicans hate facts Says:
——————————————————————————–
JohnM Says:
Because terrorists don’t like to talk when asked nicely.
The interrogators who’ve gotten information from them disagree with you. How many terrorists have you spoken to nicely? Other than your fellow teabagistan terrorists?
When you only read what is cherry picked by this website, then yes I can see how you would come to that conclusion.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/5202356/Obama-intelligence-official-says-interrogation-provided-high-value-information.html
May 21st, 2009 at 2:27 pma most important point, here:
The truth is the Bush-Cheney policies did not keep us safe, and Mr. Cheney is not a credible spokesman on issues of national security.
First, this awkward fact. When it came time to risk his hide to serve our country during the Vietnam War, Cheney got five draft deferments. He later told the Senate, “I had other priorities in the sixties than military service.” John Kerry did not. Nor did John McCain. Nor Gen. Colin Powell, nor Gen. Jim Jones, nor Gen. Wes Clark, nor Jim Webb. These warriors – and so many others – strongly oppose the use of torture. They were willing to die to protect America. It is insulting for a doughy draft dodger like Mr. Cheney to suggest they would endanger us today.
May 21st, 2009 at 2:27 pmJohnM Says:
RantingTommy Says:
——————————————————————————–
John is too much of a pussy to even answer the question
I’ll try one more time:
John, why do you think AMERICA is too weak to defeat terrorists without resorting to war or torture?
Because terrorists don’t like to talk when asked nicely.
John, how old are you? From the content of your posts, I’m guessing 12 or 13. Give it time, you will one day grow up and be able to keep up with the adults. But for the time being you need to go back to being the child that you are.
May 21st, 2009 at 2:27 pmI know he watches too much Fox News.
May 21st, 2009 at 2:28 pmI wish I had been there to throw the other shoe at Cheney and a boot at Liz Cheney!!!
May 21st, 2009 at 2:28 pmDoodlebug Shayne Says:
——————————————————————————–
JohnM Says:
The terrorist would be doing the same thing without any “torture”, they cannot be reasoned with.
OUR HORRIBLE BEHAVIOR CREATED MORE PEOPLE WHO WOULD DO US HARM. YOU DON’T EVEN HAVE COMMON SENSE HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY HAVE AN INTELLIGENT THOUGHT.
Not true, there may have been more recruits because of the interrogation tactics but the amount of information gained on the operations of Al Queda clearly outweighs that impact.
May 21st, 2009 at 2:29 pmMaybe you should have actually READ that article, JohnLOL, John puts up a right wing editorial from England
Why so far to go to defend your cowardice?
May 21st, 2009 at 2:30 pmTerrorists are born and not made, right Johnny? They are sub-human animals that deserve no legal protection, right? Well then, why not just kill them all? Blow up the Middle East, save Israel–right, John–that’s what you’re really saying, isn’t it?
May 21st, 2009 at 2:30 pmJohn is willing to give up America’s moral high ground if it will make him feel a little less terrorized by Cheney
What a pussy
May 21st, 2009 at 2:31 pmAnd if anyone knows about ‘Contrived Indignation And Phony Moralizing,’ it’s the Republican Party!!
May 21st, 2009 at 2:32 pmJohnM Says:
Not true, there may have been more recruits because of the interrogation tactics but the amount of information gained on the operations of Al Queda clearly outweighs that impact.
In the words of Admiral Dennis Blair, Director of National Intelligence, WHO WROTE THE MEMO YOU’RE REFERRING TO:
“The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security.”
So, I think I’ll give more value to the Admiral’s opinion than to your own.
May 21st, 2009 at 2:33 pmJohnM, talk about cherrypicking. This is from YOUR link:
May 21st, 2009 at 2:33 pm
Well nobody knows more about phony moralizing than the Bush crew. Or about projection. In a way this kind of outrageous comment is inevitable.
May 21st, 2009 at 2:34 pmJohn didn’t read the article, he saw the headline and assumed it would support his terrorized point of view
It doesn’t
Sorry John, you lose….again
May 21st, 2009 at 2:35 pmThe American people just participated in a presidential election and the “majority” of American people decided that Obama was the man to make the decisions regarding this countries welfare and security. Cheney will go down as the first VP to try and steer the country’s policies after leaving office. Cheney and the Neocons don’t seem to grasp the true meaning of representative government.
May 21st, 2009 at 2:37 pmCheney is subjecting the country to an extreme disservice. The country has room for one leader and it is not Cheney. The very fact that Cheney has chosen the public forum to take on the President’s security decisions illustrates his complete disrespect for the office.
There was a reason the Republicans lost the election, the Republican’s complete contempt for our system of government.
JohnM Says:
Not true, there may have been more recruits because of the interrogation tactics but the amount of information gained on the operations of Al Queda clearly outweighs that impact.
May 21st, 2009 at 2:29 pm
____________
Kindly explain your math here.
I’d like to know how there is more value in Creating More Terrorists By Torturing than there is in Obtaining Information on Known Terrorists. If the goal is to reduce the number of terrorists who wish to do us harm, how does increasing that number reduce that number?
May 21st, 2009 at 2:37 pmDick Cheney who conveniently disappeared from public eye for the two months following 9/11/01 is here to tell us he’s back. Sorry Dick, you will be remembered in the history books as a grand scoundrel, a villain, a torturer, who lied out both sides of his mouth to lead the United States into a war that defied the Nuremberg Principles, a criminal against humanity. The distaste with which you are held by a huge swath of your fellow citizens is hardly contrived but bone deep: you are the most scurrilous politician to come down the pike of executive branch politics in this 63 year old’s memory. Period. End of story.
May 21st, 2009 at 2:38 pmJohn, do you get hot and bothered when you watch 24? 24 is fantasy, it’s not a porn flick that makes you feel all cuddly, no scratch that, manly and strong…
May 21st, 2009 at 2:40 pmJohnM Says:
Because terrorists don’t like to talk when asked nicely.
May 21st, 2009 at 2:13 pm
____________
Abu Zubaydah did. So did the guy who led us to Abu Musab Az Zarqawi.
May 21st, 2009 at 2:41 pmJohnM Says:
Yes, that was horrible and should have been stopped, but it truly showed us what the terrorists are capable and because of that Bush and Cheney were determined not to let anything like that happen again. They learned from their mistakes and fought fiercely to keep you and your family safe. For that I thank them.
Sorry, I just had to reply to this… Bush and Cheney “Fought fiercely”? From behind a desk in a non-disclosed location? What, fiercely signing torture memos?
May 21st, 2009 at 2:42 pmthis link has an embedded video from youtube featuring the bush administration lies as they happened:
http://blahgblog.wordpress.com/2009/05/21/five-deferment-dick-takes-terrorism-more-seriously-than-you/
May 21st, 2009 at 2:43 pmJohnM Says:
Not true, there may have been more recruits because of the interrogation tactics but the amount of information gained on the operations of Al Queda clearly outweighs that impact.
Totally unfounded. In other words, you’re FOS. Buh-bye torture loving coward, you’ve been dismissed.
May 21st, 2009 at 2:44 pmCheney makes you feel safe, Johnny?
Go hunting with him then.
May 21st, 2009 at 2:45 pmno political entity has benefited more from the attacks of 9/11 than the Cheney Administration
they know how easy it is to terrorize their ignorant cowardly base
May 21st, 2009 at 2:45 pmIf Cheney wanted to be our leader and make foreign policy decisions HE SHOULD HAVE RUN FOR THE OFFICE OF PRESIDENT!!!!!
Buy why bother, he and his peers, GHW Bush, Rumsfeld, etal, have been running the country since they killed JFK. Perhaps we should start waterboarding Bush Senior and work our through and find out how they manipulated us all culminating with the theft of the 2000 election that gave us VP Cheney and robbed Al Gore from his rightful place.
May 21st, 2009 at 2:45 pmTP posters 100 JohnMoron 0
May 21st, 2009 at 2:48 pmNobody has made more money off the war than Cheney and his business partners. The IRS should start going through those papers and work their way back to RICO violations. How hard would it be to find conspiracies that enriched Cheney? We’d kill two birds with one stone, throw him in jail and get some of our money back.
May 21st, 2009 at 2:48 pmTorture is not porn, John…Torture is real and it diminishes our moral authority, provided we have any left, and that information supposedly obtained, we could have gotten through other methods…
and another point John…I find it funny that a knee-jerk reactionary partisan like yourself suddenly believes a figure linked to the Obama administration if he says something that “confirms” his worldview…
May 21st, 2009 at 2:49 pmJohnM Says:
Yes, that was horrible and should have been stopped, but it truly showed us what the terrorists are capable and because of that Bush and Cheney were determined not to let anything like that happen again. They learned from their mistakes and fought fiercely to keep you and your family safe. For that I thank them.
DO you thank them for the mistake of ignoring memos regarding the imminent threat AQ posed and instead organizing their national “security” planning around parsing up Iraq’s oil fields before 9/11?
May 21st, 2009 at 2:50 pmAmericasBack Says:
——————————————————————————–
Flight, Can you just imagine what they (neo-cons) would do if it was the other way around? Sheeit, they would place dick at Gitmo. ….hmmmmm? Sometimes I have dark thoughts about republicans
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I consider it often. Look at the extent that Pelosi has been turned into a criminal. The Republicans are dark and scarey.
May 21st, 2009 at 2:56 pmJohnM Says:
Not true, there may have been more recruits because of the interrogation tactics but the amount of information gained on the operations of Al Queda clearly outweighs that impact.
And your proof of this is what? Fixed News told you so? Really John, you are a prime example of my contention that 12 year old’s should not be allowed to post to grownup blogs.
May 21st, 2009 at 2:56 pmlebowski, great link and video. Thanks.
May 21st, 2009 at 2:58 pmAside from the pre-9/11 warnings, during the attack itself, the protocol incumbent upon Mr. Cheney was to intercept the hi-jacked airliners and shoot them down if necessary. He had ample warning to prevent an amateur pilot from attacking the Pentagon. He failed. D.C. is normally the most protected air space in the world–not on Cheney’s watch.
Oh, and the President was hiding behind children in Florida.
May 21st, 2009 at 2:59 pmBilbo, I can see how you’d say that, but my suspicion is that JohnM is slightly older, but seriously socially underdeveloped.
May 21st, 2009 at 3:04 pmLuis Chapulin M Says:
——————————————————————————–
JohnM Says:
Not true, there may have been more recruits because of the interrogation tactics but the amount of information gained on the operations of Al Queda clearly outweighs that impact.
In the words of Admiral Dennis Blair, Director of National Intelligence, WHO WROTE THE MEMO YOU’RE REFERRING TO:
“The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security.”
So, I think I’ll give more value to the Admiral’s opinion than to your own.
Yes he feels that way, but that is an opinion while it is a fact that interrogation techniques provided valuable information. Again, thank you Mr. Cheney!
May 21st, 2009 at 3:10 pm——————————————————————————–
Tweedster Says:
——————————————————————————–
JohnM Says:
Yes, that was horrible and should have been stopped, but it truly showed us what the terrorists are capable and because of that Bush and Cheney were determined not to let anything like that happen again. They learned from their mistakes and fought fiercely to keep you and your family safe. For that I thank them.
DO you thank them for the mistake of ignoring memos regarding the imminent threat AQ posed and instead organizing their national “security” planning around parsing up Iraq’s oil fields before 9/11?
I blame them for not taking the threat seriously enough, but thank them for learning from their mistakes and doing everything necessary to keep us safe.
May 21st, 2009 at 3:12 pmCheney’s now public face is aimed at diverting public opinion
from the fact that he invaded Iraq to rake in billions for his
company – Halliburton. This should be mentioned more on
Keith and Rachel’s show!
May 21st, 2009 at 3:12 pmspring heeled jack Says:
Oh, and the President was hiding behind children in Florida.
He was stuck trying to pronounce one of the words in My Pet Goat.
May 21st, 2009 at 3:12 pm——————————————————————————–
UCSBKitty Says:
——————————————————————————–
Torture is not porn, John…Torture is real and it diminishes our moral authority, provided we have any left, and that information supposedly obtained, we could have gotten through other methods…
and another point John…I find it funny that a knee-jerk reactionary partisan like yourself suddenly believes a figure linked to the Obama administration if he says something that “confirms” his worldview…
I disagree, moral authority over terrorists is not something we have lost. I am not partisan, I believe in right and wrong and what Bush/Cheny did was right as far as interrogations and I am glad somebody in Obama’s administration can admit that it provided valuable intel.
May 21st, 2009 at 3:17 pmDick Cheney says that the “left” isn’t interested in the results of the torture sessions, but we’ve been asking to see that “evidence” for YEARS. We’ve been begging to see the link between 9/11 and Saddam Hussein which justified the invasion of Baghdad. We’ve been asking to see evidence of the smoking guns and ticking time bomb plots which Dick Cheney’s super squad foiled. The fact that Dick Cheney never released this information while he was in office, but calls for its release now is just par for the course. How can you tell Dick Cheney is lying? Half of his lips are moving.
May 21st, 2009 at 3:17 pmJohnM Says:
I believe in right and wrong and what Bush/Cheny did was right as far as interrogations
May 21st, 2009 at 3:17 pm
_______________
So an act of torture – which you yourself have admitted is a crime – is justified if there’s a positive outcome, regardless of whether or not that positive outcome could have been achieved through other means.
For many millennia, cultures have practiced human sacrifice – often child sacrifice – to appease the gods and ensure that the sun will continue to rise and the rains will continue to fall. By your logic, we should continue the practice of sacrificing children, since the continued rising of the sun and falling of the rains is proof that this technique worked.
May 21st, 2009 at 3:22 pmSpring Heeled Jack, Dick Cheney as Vice President was not part of the military chain of command. In fact, every order he issued to the military on 9/11 was a distraction to the soldiers who were trying to do their jobs. Rather than making decisions based on the facts of the day they were making phone calls trying to figure out why a civilian was attempting to issue military orders. George Bush was commander in chief of the armed forces that day, but he was out of communication. The only things that went right on 9/11 were the result of individuals making the decisions which the leadership of this country was incapable of making. Our much vaunted armed forces were irrelevant during one of the worst attacks on the American homeland since the 1800s.
May 21st, 2009 at 3:23 pm#130 Lebowski, Thanks for that link. I hope we get to see Bush and the rest of his administration prosecuted.Doubtful. Just watching Bush/cheney/rice/rumsfeld lying makes my stomach turn. I fcking hate them all.
May 21st, 2009 at 3:23 pmJohnM, if your opinion had proven at all worthwhile here, this statement would be most disconcerting, because it would demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of the concept of “moral authority” and of what elements it is built.
As it is, however, your opinions have proven to be those of a clown with limited reasoning ability, influenced more by fear and a need for an authoritarian daddy figure than an adherence to logic or shared human values.
So your position makes perfect sense for the JohnM we have come to recognize.
May 21st, 2009 at 3:23 pmIt would not be wise to declassify documents if they’re going
May 21st, 2009 at 3:24 pmto be used as evidence in a trial against Cheney.
There wouldn’t be any impartial jurors left.
chiroptera toasterhead Says:
——————————————————————————–
JohnM Says:
I believe in right and wrong and what Bush/Cheny did was right as far as interrogations
May 21st, 2009 at 3:17 pm
_______________
So an act of torture – which you yourself have admitted is a crime – is justified if there’s a positive outcome, regardless of whether or not that positive outcome could have been achieved through other means.
Actually I never admitted it was a crime. As for being justified, pouring water on a known terrorist to save lives? Yes that is justified in my opinion.
May 21st, 2009 at 3:24 pmJohnM Says:
Yes he feels that way, but that is an opinion while it is a fact that interrogation techniques provided valuable information. Again, thank you Mr. Cheney!
May 21st, 2009 at 3:10 pm
____________
The use of the term “fact” implies that there is indisputable proof of the allegation. Kindly provide this proof, or admit that you’re setting one opinion statement by Admiral Blair versus another opinion statement by Admiral Blair.
May 21st, 2009 at 3:25 pmWe may hate Cheney and all that he stands for, but at least he’s out there defending his position, day in, day out. And he does it effectively, in the sense that he makes the other side (us) look like unpatriotic idiots.
Where are the defenders of our side? Olberman comes close but we need somebody near the level of a Cheney biting right back.
May 21st, 2009 at 3:26 pmJohnM Says:
Actually I never admitted it was a crime. As for being justified, pouring water on a known terrorist to save lives? Yes that is justified in my opinion.
May 21st, 2009 at 3:24 pm
_________
Oh, so you want to play “Ridiculous Hypotheticals?” Goodie – I like this game.
Since it’s a well-known fact that snipping the fingers off your five-year-old daughter with a bolt cutter would prevent a tsunami that could wipe out half the Eastern Seaboard, you must also find this act justifed, yes?
FYI – I’m going to attribute this to you regardless of how you respond, since it’s a logical syllogism. In my mind, you’ve already responded yes. You sick pervert.
May 21st, 2009 at 3:29 pm——————————————————————————–
ralph the wonder locust Says:
——————————————————————————–
JohnM Says:
I disagree, moral authority over terrorists is not something we have lost.
JohnM, if your opinion had proven at all worthwhile here, this statement would be most disconcerting, because it would demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of the concept of “moral authority” and of what elements it is built.
As it is, however, your opinions have proven to be those of a clown with limited reasoning ability, influenced more by fear and a need for an authoritarian daddy figure than an adherence to logic or shared human values.
So your position makes perfect sense for the JohnM we have come to recognize.
I certainly see us as the moral authority when you compare pouring water on a known terrorist to beheading and killing innocent lives.
For a black and white world, torture would be always bad and there would be no justification for it ever. Unfortunately we live in a world that has gray and we have to use reason and determine how to protect innocent people. The interrogation did just that, I’m sorry you are incapable of thinking critically enough to realize that.
May 21st, 2009 at 3:29 pm——————————————————————————–
chiroptera toasterhead Says:
——————————————————————————–
JohnM Says:
Actually I never admitted it was a crime. As for being justified, pouring water on a known terrorist to save lives? Yes that is justified in my opinion.
May 21st, 2009 at 3:24 pm
_________
Oh, so you want to play “Ridiculous Hypotheticals?” Goodie – I like this game.
Since it’s a well-known fact that snipping the fingers off your five-year-old daughter with a bolt cutter would prevent a tsunami that could wipe out half the Eastern Seaboard, you must also find this act justifed, yes?
FYI – I’m going to attribute this to you regardless of how you respond, since it’s a logical syllogism. In my mind, you’ve already responded yes. You sick pervert.
You are comparing gaining information from a known terrorist by pouring water on them to stop future attacks to to cutting the fingers off of a girl to stop a natural disaster? You are a moron.
May 21st, 2009 at 3:30 pmThere are plenty, too many, examples of this guy being wrong for him to have any credibility. He has a false sense of expertise in a field he has failed miserably. Aside from that, the storyline has changed too much not to be taken with some skepticism: it’s gone from ‘we don’t torture’ to ‘it’s the only way’. That’s quite a turn-around.
They’re using this blanket, general adjective ’safe’ while actually refering to a very specific scenario of 9/11, the worst attack in US history, as if it was a weekly occurance.
May 21st, 2009 at 3:31 pmSkipped to bottom, apologies if I’m redundant…
Cheney’s on the Board of AEI to pick a new Board member…
and picks himself.
Cheney’s on the RNC nominating committee for VP in ‘00…
and picks himself.
Deja Vu Dick all over again.
Why was this man anywhere near a NORAD Op on 9/11? THIS is what he’s afraid of, folks. If the truth is ever revealed that Cheney & the Mossad colluded he’ll be the most despised person in modern history.
Right now, he’s only running a close 2nd to that German guy.
May 21st, 2009 at 3:32 pmJohnM Says:
I certainly see us as the moral authority when you compare pouring water on a known terrorist to beheading and killing innocent lives.
May 21st, 2009 at 3:29 pm
___________
I really don’t think someone who believes it is justified to chop the fingers off his OWN DAUGHTER to keep a few East Coasters form getting wet has ANY moral authority ANYWHERE, chuckles.
You disgust me.
May 21st, 2009 at 3:38 pmFletc3her, here is Sec. of Transportation Norman Minetta’s testimony to the 9/11 Commission. He was in the White House bunker with Cheney on 9/11:
There was a young man who had come in and said to the vice president, ‘The plane is 50 miles out. The plane is 30 miles out.’ And when it got down to, ‘The plane is 10 miles out,’ the young man also said to the vice president, ‘Do the orders still stand?’ And the vice president turned and whipped his neck around and said, ‘Of course the orders still stand. Have you heard anything to the contrary?’ Well, at the time I didn’t know what all that meant.
There is controversy over whether Minetta meant the Pentagon plane or Flight 93 in PA, but it’s clear from this testimony that Cheney was calling shots that day.
May 21st, 2009 at 3:38 pmJohnM, you never answered the question on why you are such a pussy.
May 21st, 2009 at 3:39 pmcowards should not get to make policy
May 21st, 2009 at 3:40 pmJohnM Says:
You are comparing gaining information from a known terrorist by pouring water on them to stop future attacks to to cutting the fingers off of a girl to stop a natural disaster? You are a moron.
May 21st, 2009 at 3:30 pm
___________
No, I’m not. I’m viewing them as two completely separate things. You, however, apparently view them as morally equivalent since you put them both in the same sentence.
The moron, it would appear, is you.
Seriously, dude. Your OWN DAUGHTER?!? You sick fuck.
May 21st, 2009 at 3:40 pmSee, JohnM, this is one example of why your opinions are so lightly regarded around here.
You seem to think that “pouring water on a known terrorist” is a perfectly serviceable and accurate euphemism for waterboarding. As if interrogators fill up a Dixie cup at the water cooler and fling it on a “known terrorist”, who would be forced to talk because he gets tired of walking around in a wet t-shirt.
No, JohnM, in fact, waterboarding is much closer to forced drowning than it is to your chosen descriptor. And calling it “pouring water on a known terrorist” only weakens any argument you’re struggling to put forth, because it shows you don’t take it seriously.
May 21st, 2009 at 3:40 pmRantingTommy Says:
JohnM, you never answered the question on why you are such a pussy.
May 21st, 2009 at 3:39 pm
____________
Yeah. I mean, he has no problem giving his daughter the snippy-snip, but he’s afraid of a little due process? What a thoroughly demented individual.
May 21st, 2009 at 3:42 pmIf waterboarding is just pouring water on someone then why do it?–how is that effective?
May 21st, 2009 at 3:45 pmI just have no patience for cowards.
People died to make this country what it is and they just want to throw all that away in a cowardly reaction to terrorist criminals.
The Land of the Free and Home of the Brave has no place for cowardly little sissies that think America is as weak as they are.
May 21st, 2009 at 3:46 pmspring heeled jack Says:
——————————————————————————–
If waterboarding is just pouring water on someone then why do it?–how is that effective?
Because it is unpleasant.
May 21st, 2009 at 3:48 pmUnpleasant like a shower?
May 21st, 2009 at 3:50 pmJohnM, for someone who has shown remarkably little in the way of “critical thinking ability” you are certainly far too quick to call others into question for such a lack.
In truth, JohnM, you are simply embracing the fear-based narrative that has been sold to you by your authoritarian daddy figures. Your highest value appears to be “kept safe” — like a child who huddles beneath his bedcovers during a thunderstorm.
You tacitly recognize waterboarding as torture when you say, “For a black and white world, torture would be always bad and there would be no justification for it ever. Unfortunately we live in a world that has gray and we have to use reason and determine how to protect innocent people. The interrogation did just that”. It doesn’t take a sophisticated linguistic analysis to identify the stated equivalence between “torture” and “interrogation” and your twisted attempt to justify the former.
JohnM, let’s imagine that you have an impulse to tell the truth and build a reputation for honesty because of that. Yet if you come upon a situation where telling the truth would put you at greater risk than telling a lie, and you tell the lie and it is discovered, your reputation for complete honesty will rightly take a hit. Was the temporary safety worth the permanent damage to your reputation? That is a question who answer will reveal a great deal about anyone who faces it. You have answered it.
May 21st, 2009 at 3:50 pmJohnM Says:
Because it is unpleasant.
May 21st, 2009 at 3:48 pm
__________
Unpleasant?
Unpleasant?
A pubic hair in your caesar salad is unpleasant.
The middle seat on a four-hour flight is unpleasant.
Having your lungs filled with water is not unpleasant. It is torture.
May 21st, 2009 at 3:51 pm——————————————————————————–
ralph the wonder locust Says:
——————————————————————————–
JohnM Says:
As for being justified, pouring water on a known terrorist to save lives?
See, JohnM, this is one example of why your opinions are so lightly regarded around here.
You seem to think that “pouring water on a known terrorist” is a perfectly serviceable and accurate euphemism for waterboarding. As if interrogators fill up a Dixie cup at the water cooler and fling it on a “known terrorist”, who would be forced to talk because he gets tired of walking around in a wet t-shirt.
No, JohnM, in fact, waterboarding is much closer to forced drowning than it is to your chosen descriptor. And calling it “pouring water on a known terrorist” only weakens any argument you’re struggling to put forth, because it shows you don’t take it seriously.
Call it whatever you want. Nobody died from it and there is no long term damage, and it got valuable intel.
May 21st, 2009 at 3:52 pmSo these brutal, tough terrorists can be broken by something “unpleasant”?
Why don’t we just run leaf blowers outside their cells every morning at 6 am? Or serve them Rice Krispies, but put moldy strawberries in them? THat’s pretty unpleasant.
Man, these terrorists sound like wusses, broken by something “unpleasant”. And you’re afraid of them? JohnM, you should be ashamed.
May 21st, 2009 at 3:54 pmspring heeled jack Says:
Unpleasant like a shower?
May 21st, 2009 at 3:50 pm
______________
Hmmm. Perhaps you’re on to something. What we’re seeing is JohnM’s admission of an extremely acute case of hydrophobia. He finds showers unpleasant, considers having water poured on him to be torture, and would snip the fingers off his own daughter to avoid getting wet.
I had thought he was just a sick perverted conservative with no moral compass, but now I understand the truth. He’s just a poor misguided oaf with a paralyzing fear of diydrogen monoxide.
Poor guy probably hasn’t bathed in years. Maybe decades.
May 21st, 2009 at 3:55 pmJohnM, Christopher Hitchens is a smarter and braver man than you. Please read his personal experience with waterboarding:
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/08/hitchens200808
May 21st, 2009 at 3:55 pmCheney is a political cockroach who has ZERO credibility left.
This a-hole spouts on and on about “keeping us safe” but he was put in charge of the White House terrorism group when Bush entered the White House in 2001, yet held ZERO meetings on terrorism. BUT he had plenty of time to hold SECRET meetings with the energy industry.
What’s up with the secret meeting? I thought the U.S. was an open democracy. It did leak out that a map of Iraqi oil fields was displayed at at least one meeting.
But, of course the American public never got any clear answers on:
Secret Cheney Energy Meetings/ Iraqi oil field map presentation
9/11
The anthrax attacks
The burglary of the Niger embassy in Italy in 2001 for the forged ‘yellowcake’ document letterhead.
Valerie Plame (obstruction of justice prevented answers)
Al- Libbi’s torture and recent “suicide”
Oh and let’s not forget this scumbag twice convicted drunk driver Cheney didn’t even talk to the police for 10 hours after he shot his friend in the face after having “just one beer”.
How many times have cops have heard that “I had just one beer” line?
Cheney is a walking human smoking gun.
May 21st, 2009 at 3:56 pm——————————————————————————–
ralph the wonder locust Says:
——————————————————————————–
JohnM Says:
I certainly see us as the moral authority when you compare pouring water on a known terrorist to beheading and killing innocent lives.
For a black and white world, torture would be always bad and there would be no justification for it ever. Unfortunately we live in a world that has gray and we have to use reason and determine how to protect innocent people. The interrogation did just that, I’m sorry you are incapable of thinking critically enough to realize that.
JohnM, for someone who has shown remarkably little in the way of “critical thinking ability” you are certainly far too quick to call others into question for such a lack.
In truth, JohnM, you are simply embracing the fear-based narrative that has been sold to you by your authoritarian daddy figures. Your highest value appears to be “kept safe” — like a child who huddles beneath his bedcovers during a thunderstorm.
You tacitly recognize waterboarding as torture when you say, “For a black and white world, torture would be always bad and there would be no justification for it ever. Unfortunately we live in a world that has gray and we have to use reason and determine how to protect innocent people. The interrogation did just that”. It doesn’t take a sophisticated linguistic analysis to identify the stated equivalence between “torture” and “interrogation” and your twisted attempt to justify the former.
JohnM, let’s imagine that you have an impulse to tell the truth and build a reputation for honesty because of that. Yet if you come upon a situation where telling the truth would put you at greater risk than telling a lie, and you tell the lie and it is discovered, your reputation for complete honesty will rightly take a hit. Was the temporary safety worth the permanent damage to your reputation? That is a question who answer will reveal a great deal about anyone who faces it. You have answered it.
If saving innocent lives is chosen over reputation amongst people that would rather protect the guilty than save the innocent then I will fall on the life saving side. Sorry you don’t.
May 21st, 2009 at 3:56 pmJohn M has a lot of opinions.
Facts…..not so many
May 21st, 2009 at 3:57 pmThe wingnut argument is dependent on straddling an ever-widening gap.
On the one hand, these terrorists are far more brutal and bloodthirsty than any other human, and so they demand to be treated with the the most brutal methods of interrogation possible.
On the other hand, the methods used to break them are merely “unpleasant”. Nothing more than “pouring water on them”.
So their instinct to downplay the brutality of the treatment in order to make it more palatable directly undercuts their instinct to portray terror suspects as supervillains who can’t be held in normal max prisons.
Really, JohnM, wouldn’t fact-basedreason and logic be easier for you than this elaborate exercise in fear-based rationalization?
May 21st, 2009 at 3:58 pmchiroptera toasterhead Says:
——————————————————————————–
spring heeled jack Says:
Unpleasant like a shower?
May 21st, 2009 at 3:50 pm
______________
Hmmm. Perhaps you’re on to something. What we’re seeing is JohnM’s admission of an extremely acute case of hydrophobia. He finds showers unpleasant, considers having water poured on him to be torture, and would snip the fingers off his own daughter to avoid getting wet.
I had thought he was just a sick perverted conservative with no moral compass, but now I understand the truth. He’s just a poor misguided oaf with a paralyzing fear of diydrogen monoxide.
Poor guy probably hasn’t bathed in years. Maybe decades.
You have just shown your complete idiocy at your pathetic attempt at humor, was it worth it?
May 21st, 2009 at 3:59 pmJohnM Says:
You have just shown your complete idiocy at your pathetic attempt at humor, was it worth it?
May 21st, 2009 at 3:59 pm
__________
Interesting response. So you don’t deny having a paralyzing fear of water, then?
Ok, thanks for the confirmation, fingersnipper. :)
May 21st, 2009 at 4:00 pm——————————————————————————–
ralph the wonder locust Says:
——————————————————————————–
The wingnut argument is dependent on straddling an ever-widening gap.
On the one hand, these terrorists are far more brutal and bloodthirsty than any other human, and so they demand to be treated with the the most brutal methods of interrogation possible.
On the other hand, the methods used to break them are merely “unpleasant”. Nothing more than “pouring water on them”.
So their instinct to downplay the brutality of the treatment in order to make it more palatable directly undercuts their instinct to portray terror suspects as supervillains who can’t be held in normal max prisons.
Really, JohnM, wouldn’t fact-basedreason and logic be easier for you than this elaborate exercise in fear-based rationalization?
It really comes down to the question as to why you would rather protect a known terrorists “righs” instead of saving thousands of innocent lives?
May 21st, 2009 at 4:02 pmchiroptera toasterhead Says:
——————————————————————————–
JohnM Says:
You have just shown your complete idiocy at your pathetic attempt at humor, was it worth it?
May 21st, 2009 at 3:59 pm
__________
Interesting response. So you don’t deny having a paralyzing fear of water, then?
Ok, thanks for the confirmation, fingersnipper. :)
Why do you have fantasies of chopping off fingers of little girls? Should authorities be checking out your basement?
May 21st, 2009 at 4:03 pmYou have no proof that any innocent lives were saved using torture, nor that any information gained through torture could not have been gotten by other means.
In fact, most experienced interrogators say that torture is counterproductive. It produces bad intelligence. It doesn’t even work in the “ticking time bomb” scenario that you guys love to cite from “24″.
Why? because if there’s a “ticking time bomb”, the terrorist knows he’s only got to hold out for a certain amount of time in order for the bomb to go off. If he is tortured and gives up false intel that sends agents off in the wrong direction, he has guaranteed that the bomb will go off. If these people are as cold-blooded and unconcerned for their own safety as you say, then why would physical discomfort (or, as you might prefer, “unpleasantness”) have any affect on them whatsoever?
May 21st, 2009 at 4:04 pmI wish I had a dollar for every time someone in authority, be it a parent, a teacher or a judge tole me…
“THE ENDS NEVER JUSTIFIES THE MEANS!”
May 21st, 2009 at 4:05 pmJohnM Says:
It really comes down to the question as to why you would rather protect a known terrorists “righs” instead of saving thousands of innocent lives?
May 21st, 2009 at 4:02 pm
___________
Oh, but you have no problem snipping off your daughter’s fingers in order to save thousands of innocent lives. I suppose in your sick, twisted mind that makes them equal. What is it, one digit for each of the first ten amendments?
May 21st, 2009 at 4:06 pm“Complete idiocy” is obviously in the eyes of the beholder, but for me, I find the attempt at humor by CTH well worth it.
May 21st, 2009 at 4:07 pmJohn “Snippy McDigits” M Says:
Why do you have fantasies of chopping off fingers of little girls? Should authorities be checking out your basement?
May 21st, 2009 at 4:03 pm
____________
I’ll let go of my ridiculous false dichotomy as soon as you let go of yours.
May 21st, 2009 at 4:08 pmralph the wonder locust Says:
——————————————————————————–
JohnM Says:
If saving innocent lives is chosen over reputation amongst people that would rather protect the guilty than save the innocent then I will fall on the life saving side. Sorry you don’t.
You have no proof that any innocent lives were saved using torture, nor that any information gained through torture could not have been gotten by other means.
In fact, most experienced interrogators say that torture is counterproductive. It produces bad intelligence. It doesn’t even work in the “ticking time bomb” scenario that you guys love to cite from “24″.
Why? because if there’s a “ticking time bomb”, the terrorist knows he’s only got to hold out for a certain amount of time in order for the bomb to go off. If he is tortured and gives up false intel that sends agents off in the wrong direction, he has guaranteed that the bomb will go off. If these people are as cold-blooded and unconcerned for their own safety as you say, then why would physical discomfort (or, as you might prefer, “unpleasantness”) have any affect on them whatsoever?
Keep clinging to the “well you don’t know if any lives were saved” we all know that valuable information in defeating Al Queda has been gained and we all know Obama won’t declassify the documents Cheney keeps talking about. These methods have made the country safer and that is a fact. Keep worrying about the comfort of terrorists, while the adults worry about the innocent people.
May 21st, 2009 at 4:08 pmchiroptera toasterhead Says:
Oh, but you have no problem snipping off your daughter’s fingers…
May 21st, 2009 at 4:06 pm
Lordy HT, this has got to be an interesting conversation, but I have to be somewhere. :-D
May 21st, 2009 at 4:08 pm9/11 WAS AN INSIDE JOB ….DONE BY THE CARLYLE GROUP, HALIBERTON AND KBR UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF DICK AND GEORGE.
WHEN AMERICA FINALLY DECIDES TO INVESTIGATE THEN YOU WILL SEE WHO THE REAL TERRORISTS ARE!!!
DON’T BELIEVE ME…
Funny how George W Bush yougest brother was on the board of the security company that had a contract with the WTC.
Funny how the bomb sniffing dogs contract was cancelled two weeks before 9/11
Funny how the WTC had a building black out two weeks before 9/11 (building blackout means…the building electrical system is being shut down for repairs…industry standard is two months notice not two weeks notice. Corps have to move servers to other locations when building black outs occure)
Funny how no one knows what they did during the building black out.
Funny how building 7 collapses 6 hours after building 1 and 2 fall….and by the way….how can a building collapse when only one small portion of the building was damaged due to fire and debris falling?????? Oh by the way….all the files for ENRON were in that building along with the FBI, CIA AND OTHER INTEL OPERATIONS.
Funny how they recently determined that THERMITE was found at the site.
ITS FUNNY ISN’T IT DICK??????? ONE DAY YOUR TIME WILL COME ….THE TRUTH WILL COME OUT!!!!
May 21st, 2009 at 4:09 pmI notice you completely sidestepped my points in order to fall back on your false choice of a rationalization once again.
In fact, JohnM, what it comes down to is this: is torture effective, and even if effective, is it justifiable.
You say yes on both counts. I say no on both counts, and I point out a glaring foundational inconsistency in your argument, which you pretend was not even mentioned.
Must be difficult trying to swim against a flood tide. But I suppose your in-born ability to not hear what you find “unpleasant” helps a lot.
May 21st, 2009 at 4:10 pmZooey Says:
Lordy HT, this has got to be an interesting conversation, but I have to be somewhere. :-D
May 21st, 2009 at 4:08 pm
_______________
It’s the strangest thing. Johnny Fingersnips here can dish out ridiculous illogic, but can’t take it.
May 21st, 2009 at 4:11 pmNo matter what the ex-VP or anyone else says, the Bush administration did NOT keep us safe!!
All of the terrorist attacks of 9/11 happened on Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney’s watch.
May 21st, 2009 at 4:13 pmJohnM Says:
we all know that valuable information in defeating Al Queda has been gained and we all know Obama won’t declassify the documents Cheney keeps talking about.
May 21st, 2009 at 4:08 pm
____________
And as we can see by the fact that UBL is still at large, al-Qa’ida continues to regularly put out audio and video messages, and the gains the Taliban is making in Pakistan and Afghanistan, we’ve certainly put that valuable information to good use.
May 21st, 2009 at 4:15 pmsscncturn64 Says: (@152)
#130 Lebowski, Thanks for that link. I hope we get to see Bush and the rest of his administration prosecuted.Doubtful. Just watching Bush/cheney/rice/rumsfeld lying makes my stomach turn. I fcking hate them all.
May 21st, 2009 at 3:23 pm
————————————————————-
no problem — glad you *liked* it, so to speak. you’re very right, watching them again is sickening. but it’s useful to remember their words then.
here’s the link again in case anyone else is interested:
May 21st, 2009 at 4:16 pmhttp://blahgblog.wordpress.com/2009/05/21/five-deferment-dick-takes-terrorism-more-seriously-than-you/
And JohnM, you keep arguing on the premise that every detainee is a terrorist. Ninety percent of the Iraqi’s rounded up and abused in Abu Grahib by CIA and the Army were innocent.
May 21st, 2009 at 4:17 pmryko @ 198
and the ignored the intelligence report about al qaeda being “determined to strike in the US.”
but they claim, with straight faces, that they “kept us safe.”
it’s important to never let them get away with their lies. call them on it every time.
May 21st, 2009 at 4:17 pmJohnM Says:
Yes, valuable intel was obtained… using proven methods that don’t include torture.
You ‘adults’ sure do worry a lot… I wonder why you don’t just listen to the experts instead of worrying about how to justify your ‘adult’ obsession with ineffective torture?
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104092457&ft=3&f=searchTerm=waterboard
May 21st, 2009 at 4:18 pmPROVE IT.
WHY DIDN’T CHENEY HAVE BUSH DECLASSIFY THEM BEFORE THEY LEFT OFFICE?
Answer: because they don’t say what Cheney claims they say.
That is NOT a fact. That is a fervently held belief of the Right, in the absence of any evidence.
It’s just like you to characterize our concern with the moral authority of this nation as “worrying about the comfort of terrorists”. Once again, you show you have no interest in taking this seriously. And why would you? Taking it seriously would necessarily lead to the realization that you were full of crap.
I notice you’re not very interested in the innocent people who were picked up in Afghanistan in order to collect a bounty, and then held for years without being charged with any crime. Yeah, those innocent people, you’re not so concerned about.
May 21st, 2009 at 4:19 pmOf course it happened on there watch….who else was going to make sure it would go through smoothly?????
Why do you think they ignored the AUG 6, 2001 briefing?????
WAKE UP AMERICA….LEARN ABOUT FALSE FLAG ATTACKS….ESPECIALLY FROM AN OPPONENT THAT CAN NEVER BE DEFEATED….KILLING TERRORISM IS LIKE KILLING EVIL….IT CAN NEVER HAPPEN….FOOLS!
May 21st, 2009 at 4:21 pmralph the wonder locust Says:
Taking it seriously would necessarily lead to the realization that you were full of crap.
May 21st, 2009 at 4:19 pm
_____________
Somehow I don’t see Chop-Chop McGee here making that realization any time soon.
May 21st, 2009 at 4:24 pmWhy is Cheney still making speeches? Why is anyone listening? Why do the right wingers still appear to be in charge? You know they are going to get away with their war crimes, right?
May 21st, 2009 at 4:24 pmSo how do we know that the info from torture was legit? After all, during the Bush administration, we were told about all of those phony terror attacks thwarted by the administration…Of course I expect someone like John to never question, but considering the timing of the terror alerts to cover up any embarrassing episodes from the Bush administration, the question is how many of those were directly influenced by the use of torture?
May 21st, 2009 at 4:29 pmAbout 100 detainees have died from all this unpleasantness, John. But as long as that makes you feel safe, then I’m sure they weren’t tortured-to-death in vain.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-05-05/how-many-were-tortured-to-death/
May 21st, 2009 at 4:31 pmThe Knee-jerk reactionary wingnut troll handbook…
Q: We should absolutely make sure that Al Qaeda is behind 9/11 before going to war in Afghanistan…
A: Why do you want to give Al Qaeda free therapy sessions with tea and cookies?
Q: There is no link between Al Qaeda and Saddam…
A: Why do you hate America and love Saddam?
Statement: We should not torture because it has proven to be ineffective and even if it were, it is not justifiable because we are a nation of law…
A: Why do you care more about terrorists than our own citizens? Why do you want AMERICANS DEAD?
Your answers, John, are so damn predictable, it’s like they came out of talking points…oh wait…
May 21st, 2009 at 4:37 pmJohnM Says:
Yes he feels that way, but that is an opinion while it is a fact that interrogation techniques provided valuable information. Again, thank you Mr. Cheney!
Valuable is an opinion as well.
May 21st, 2009 at 4:47 pmCheney: “Everyone expected a follow-on attack, and our job was to stop it.” Later in the same paragraph: “We had the anthrax attack from an unknown source.”
Dude is 0-2 at preventing domestic terrorist attacks. Why is he on my TV?
May 21st, 2009 at 4:58 pmkirkaracha Says:
Why is he on my TV?
Good Question.
Standard Operating Proceedure would be to keep the WHOLE MATTER out of the News, and Wait for the Controvery to Die Down and be REPLACED by the Next Item in the News Cycle.
SO Why is Cheney Perpetuating the STORY with Uncharacteristic Showboating???
My Guess is that he KNOWS what really happened, and is Very Worried.
GOOD!
May 21st, 2009 at 5:07 pmSo, if the Iraqi insurgents captured and tortured some of our soldiers—–we could not say anything because that would be “contrived indignation and phony moralizing “? The Iraqis would be justified (under Cheney’s rules) because our invasion and occupation of Iraq was totally illegal. We killed maybe one million of them. It resulted in over four million refugees (why does CNN keep saying that the 1 million refugees in Pakistan is the greatest number since Rawanda?). Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. We knew they had no WMD’s. We just wanted to take that part of the world. It wouldn’t just be a possible imminent attack—It was a real horrendous attack.
The same goes for McCain’s torture in Vietnam. He was dropping bombs on civilians. We did cause the deaths of 3,200,000 of them. About half were civilians. Wouldn’t torturing McCain be justified under Cheney’s rules?
May 21st, 2009 at 5:08 pmPoll numbers? Isn’t that how Clinton used to govern? Take a poll see which way the wind is blowing and go that way. We didn’t need a President. We just needed a Gallup Poll to make policy.
May 21st, 2009 at 5:16 pmkwsventures Says:
Ignoring the facts? Isn’t that how Bush used to govern? Who needs experts and facts when you have a ‘decider?’
May 21st, 2009 at 5:21 pmDick Cheney’s speech was not given as a response to Obama’s. Cheney’s speech was scheduled to occur prior to the President announcing he was speaking today!
May 21st, 2009 at 5:21 pmkwsventures,
By any possible measure, we were better off under Clinton than under Bush. Same will go for Obama.
May 21st, 2009 at 5:44 pmWorked pretty well, seems to me. Unprecedented prosperity for all levels of society, perpetrators of terrorist attacks caught, successfully prosecuted and sentenced, Saddam’s power to attack his neighbors severely curtailed, comprehensive anti-terror strategy developed and implemented, positive influence of America around the globe.
Dude, if you’re going to criticize a certain approach, better make sure it led to a bad outcome. kinda like Bush’s “steadfast leadership style” in which he completely ignored the Will of the people, as well as most of the Reality-Based Community™..
May 21st, 2009 at 5:56 pmHard-hitting, substantive point, there, Ro. You get a cookie.
May 21st, 2009 at 5:57 pmralph the wonder locust Says:
Romartin16985 Says:
Dick Cheney’s speech was not given as a response to Obama’s. Cheney’s speech was scheduled to occur prior to the President announcing he was speaking today!
Hard-hitting, substantive point, there, Ro. You get a cookie.
Two cookies for the exclamation point!
May 21st, 2009 at 6:03 pmI am beginning to believe that Bevis(Bush)and Butthead(Cheney), using the term 9-11 every time their lips move, that they considered it one of their accomplishments, not the castastrophe that it was.
May 21st, 2009 at 8:00 pmdrunkfoulmouthfiltybeast,
Maybe it was. At least there is no evidence they tried to stop it after it began: Pentagon defense system switched OFF, fighter jets sent east over the Atlantic, no intercepts in 100 minutes, Dubya goes to school after they learn of first hit on WTC, Dubya frozen in the school, Dubya hides in Nebraska(?), etc.
May 21st, 2009 at 8:13 pmIt was, after all, a “trifecta” for George W. Bush. He said so himself.
May 21st, 2009 at 8:28 pmJohnM is another troll like special jay. He’s crapped flamebait in other threads before. Just ignore this fool:
DFTT! Don’t Feed The Trolls!
http://www.thecountryshrink.com/2008/07/02/on-the-psychology-of-trolls/
TP users, PLEASE read this site and stop feeding the trolls! As soon as the troll drifts off topic, refuse to respond! Refuse to respond to known trolls! Don’t give in to thier flamebait if you don’t respond!
No one can “convince” this troll of anything and the idiot won’t be able to convince US of anything either.
May 21st, 2009 at 9:42 pmThink about it for a while locust-itch, the timing of the speeches and when they were scheduled does say a lot about the administrations state of mind. Not surprised you don’t get this…..
May 22nd, 2009 at 12:16 amR
I’m not surprised, either. I’m not very fluent in Trollish.
I’m part of the Reality-Based Community™.
May 22nd, 2009 at 1:09 amlocust –
No need to be fluent in Trollish to understand why the administration would schedule the President to speak right before Cheney, as Cheney has been very effective in explaining the Bush administration policies that have kept our country safe since 9/11.
It does, however, help to be fluent in English.
May 22nd, 2009 at 2:30 amSite R – also known as Raven Rock or the Alternate Joint Communications Center is from where vice-President Dick Cheney ran the aftermath of the 9/11 attack. Cheney’s command superceded the orders of the Pentagon, the FAA or the White House.
Remember – Cheney ran those wargames that kept fighters from protecting NYC.
He is my number one suspect in the murder of nearly 3,000 innocent people.
In May of 2001, by presidential order, Cheney was handed direct control of all wargame and drill operations. This meant he was solely in charge of the overlapping NORAD drills and wargames on the morning of 9/11, that prevented Standard Operating Procedure from being implemented, and any of the hijacked planes being intercepted.
The smoking guns of 9/11 are no longer disparate jigsaw pieces that serve to just raise more questions than they answer. We now have a coherent and plausible explanation of how the events unfolded, why there was no air defense response, and a prime suspect as to who executed these actions. The facts fit this version of events.
May 22nd, 2009 at 9:13 amRomartin… do you have the name of a professional interrogator who agrees with Cheney that ‘enhanced interrogation’ was not only NOT counter-productive and stupid but also necessary and useful?
We’ve been looking for just one for some time now… just one.
May 22nd, 2009 at 12:23 pmbelaccifer,
The White House has released redacted memos, so we know only what they want us to know. Their objective was to score political points by demonizing the Bush administration and libel them as criminals.
I have heard some very much in agreement with Cheney, and others who disagree. Who knows their political motives, or how much they really were privy to. The answer to your question would be very easy to determine, if only the Obama administration would now release the memos in their entirety. We could all see for ourselves exactly how these techniques were employed, who they were used on and why, and what information was gained. Surely the damage has already been done, as our enemies now know that we used these techniques with strict guidelines, with a physician present, and on a select few (3) terrorists who were not innocents, as one was the mastermind behind 9/11 and knew of a plot to kill more innocent Americans.
But releasing the information you ask for would make obvious the games they have been playing.
(BTW, Obama has reserved for himself the right to use these very same techniques).
May 22nd, 2009 at 1:13 pmI have heard some very much in agreement with Cheney
Who?
One name… of a professional interrogator- not a lawyer or politician.
One.
May 22nd, 2009 at 1:43 pm