NYT Finally Runs ‘Editor’s Note’ Correction To Misleading Gitmo Detainee ‘Recidivism’ Story
NYT Finally Runs ‘Editor’s Note’ Correction To Misleading Gitmo Detainee ‘Recidivism’ Story
Last month, the New York Times ran a front page story titled “1 In 7 Detainees Returned to Jihad, Pentagon Finds.” Relying on a unpublicized DoD report, the article said that “74 prisoners released from Guantánamo have returned to terrorism, making for a recidivism rate of nearly 14 percent.” Critics pointed out that these statistics don’t take into account the possibility that released detainees were not terrorists to begin with and were radicalized by their detention. Seeming to take note of this criticism, the Times soon after changed the headline and lead of the web version of the story.
The Wonk Room’s Matt Duss noted that the Times’ web-only rewrite ignored the fact that the article “still contain[ed] references to ‘recidivism,’ which still presumes that detainees were involved in terrorism before being detained.” Today, the Times finally got around to addressing the story’s inaccuracies in its print edition in an “Editor’s Note.” And while the article still contains references to “recidivism,” the Times acknowledges the error:
The article said that the Pentagon had found about one in seven of former Guantánamo prisoners had “returned to terrorism or other militant activity,” or as the headline put it, had “rejoined jihad.”
Those phrases accepted a premise of the report that all the former prisoners had been engaged in terrorism before their detention. Because that premise remains unproved, the day the article appeared in the newspaper, editors changed the headline and the first paragraph on the Times Web site to refer to prisoners the report said had engaged in terrorism or militant activity since their release.
CAP’s Ken Gude noted at the time “the enormous caveat” in the 17th paragraph of the Times article:
The Pentagon has provided no way of authenticating its 45 unnamed recidivists, and only a few of the 29 people identified by name can be independently verified as having engaged in terrorism since their release. Many of the 29 are simply described as associating with terrorists or training with terrorists, with almost no other details provided.
The editors’ note addresses this as well, saying that “[t]he article should have distinguished between the two categories, to say that about one in 20 of former Guantánamo prisoners described in the Pentagon report were now said to be engaging in terrorism.”
McClatchy’s Planet Washington notes that “one key question remains unknown,” asking, “How many of these confirmed and suspected jihadis became such because of their experiences at Guantanamo and elsewhere? ”
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“How many of these confirmed and suspected jihadis became such because of their experiences at Guantanamo and elsewhere? ”
Exactly, I know I would be so pissed off that I would do anything to destroy the country that did that to me.
Innocent? Even more so.
June 5th, 2009 at 5:36 pmAnd how many of them didn’t “return to terrorism” at all?
I recall some time ago the Pentagon made a similar claim, but it turned out their “returned to the battlefield” category included people who spoke to the press or penned on op-ed.
I have no reason to trust their claims this time, and many not to.
June 5th, 2009 at 5:36 pmHeh. Damned librul media!!
/snark
June 5th, 2009 at 5:48 pmAll of them are terrorists. All of them. And Obarki wants to release them into Chicago so Ayers the unrepentant terrorist can have him a fresh team of attack planners.
June 5th, 2009 at 5:48 pmwhy did it take the NYT so long??
June 5th, 2009 at 5:50 pmOnce Obarki releases the terrorists that currently reside at Gitmo, the nominated commanding general of the I Marine Expeditionary Force Joseph F. Dunford will need to deploy forces in the homeland just to offset the disasterous order that will be given from the white house.
June 5th, 2009 at 5:51 pmlinder van tyrannist Says:
YOU’RE NOT much on critical thinking are you? We had a bounty system going on for so-called terrorists. Now think about it, family feuds in the middle of Afghanistan…What better way to deal with an enemy than to turn him in to the US authorities and what better way to profit off your feud than that? Do you expect EVERYONE of them to be terrorists knowing a bounty system was in play?
June 5th, 2009 at 5:52 pmand WTF is Obarki supposed to mean? Is this your way of denying President Obama his own identity? Does it make you feel so high and mighty knowing that you’ve come up with a stupid nickname for him?
June 5th, 2009 at 5:53 pmThe Pentagon did a lousy job keeping records on the detainees. The NY Times did a lousy job researching and confirming that the information they had was accurate. Shame on them! Bush/Cheney were randomly rounding up people who were not proven to have committed any crimes!
Thanks a freaking lot Bush Crime Family for bringing this shame on America.
June 5th, 2009 at 5:54 pm“and WTF is Obarki supposed to mean? Is this your way of denying President Obama his own identity?”
I didn’t thnk the brother had his own identity that some white liberal didn’t make up for him.
June 5th, 2009 at 5:55 pmUCSBKitty Says:
linder van tyrannist Says:
You’re wasting energy arguing with this one. This is merdad et al, and is incapable of constructing a simple sentence, much less making any sense at all.
June 5th, 2009 at 5:57 pm“How many of these confirmed and suspected jihadis became such because of their experiences at Guantanamo and elsewhere? ”
Uh, hello, weren’t they terrorists before they got to Gitmo. They all grow up hating Jews and wanting to kill everybody that is American because of their faith.
June 5th, 2009 at 5:57 pmYou just made his point for him…12. Thank you.
June 5th, 2009 at 5:59 pmwell scratch 13…I flipped they and weren’t…
A lot of them were radicalized by their treatment, but it’s easy for you to make such claims because it doesn’t take away from your simple-minded worldview…
June 5th, 2009 at 6:01 pmlinder van tyrannist Says:
All of them are terrorists. All of them.
None of them are terrorists. None of them.
See what I did there? The facts of the matter probably actually lie somewhere between our two competing positions. If only there was some way to figure it out… like, looking at evidence and having some system of connecting two facts together… we could call it “logic!”
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Shaquilla Goldstein-Sanchez Says:
Uh, hello, weren’t they terrorists before they got to Gitmo. They all grow up hating Jews and wanting to kill everybody that is American because of their faith.
Whereas you don’t hate anybody and want to kill them because of their faith, right?
June 5th, 2009 at 6:01 pmShaquilla Goldstein-Sanchez Says:
“How many of these confirmed and suspected jihadis became such because of their experiences at Guantanamo and elsewhere? ”
Uh, hello, weren’t they terrorists before they got to Gitmo. They all grow up hating Jews and wanting to kill everybody that is American because of their faith.
Why, hello, sweetheart — how is that any different from wingnuts like you who grow up hating non-whites and liberals and wanting to kill everyone (i.e., Muslims and liberals) who isn’t like them because of your Christofascist faith, eh?
June 5th, 2009 at 6:03 pmYeah, we have two new sockpuppets that beg to be ignored.
I’m betting at least one of them is the latest incarnation of racistintexas, who got himself banned today.
Just ignore them, let them mumble to themselves and feel left out, until they leave.
June 5th, 2009 at 6:03 pmWhat really mystifies me is the way the right-wing and the media portrayed the supposed recidivism of the detainees that were released by the Bush administration as if this was President Obama’s fault.
June 5th, 2009 at 6:04 pmShaquilla Goldstein-Sanchez is linder van tyrannist. Blatantly obvious sockpuppet.
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UCSBKitty Says:
and WTF is Obarki supposed to mean? Is this your way of denying President Obama his own identity? Does it make you feel so high and mighty knowing that you’ve come up with a stupid nickname for him?
They always do that. For some reason they are incapable of calling people they don’t like by their names. It’s incredibly juvenile. If they could at least specify clearly who they’re talking about, they might not sound quite as dumb.
June 5th, 2009 at 6:05 pmThere will probably some that will go back to terrorism. Or some that will take it up because of being falsely imprisoned.
But what continues to amaze me is how often the so called liberal media is wrong about what they write or say. The fact is, we have had NO REAL OR OBJECTIVE MEDIA SINCE REAGAN WAS IN OFFICE.
And during the Bush years none that qualified as media watch dogs. And still the media is behind the curve of what is really going on. And they still write as if the Republicans won and are still in office. And they continue to quote and interview these losers as if they had anything relevant to say or contribute.
Outside of a few sources, the news media in this country is owned and operated as part of the right wing political system. They don’t know nor care about what the MAJORITY of Americans feel or think. They spend so much time listening to their own voices and their own ideas, that they have lost track of what is really going on. This is why newspapers have failed. Not because no one reads. But simply because what we read is so wrong and so far removed from the reality of our lives and experience, that it is not familiar to most of us.
We do not have a free and objective press. We have a corporate owned media. We have little that the constitution was set up to protect. We have tabloid, we have lower then tabloid. We have Fox and we have some of the scum Clear Channel puts forth in the way of talking heads. Trash.
And for every small correction the NYT or Washington Post correct from time to time, we have the things they never correct. We have the stories they never cover. And we have the follow up they never do. They might as well all be the caliber of the Washington Times, owned my the moonies.
June 5th, 2009 at 6:05 pm“Why, hello, sweetheart — how is that any different from wingnuts like you who grow up hating non-whites and liberals and wanting to kill everyone (i.e., Muslims and liberals) who isn’t like them because of your Christofascist faith, eh?”
I am totally non-white so why would I want to kill non-whites? I just think the Gitmo people were already terrorists before they got to Gitmo I don’t think they became terr. while there. That is all.
Peace out
June 5th, 2009 at 6:12 pm“Outside of a few sources, the news media in this country is owned and operated as part of the right wing political system.”
Thank you for not blaming the Jews like everyone else does.
June 5th, 2009 at 6:14 pmSGS, Got some proof they were all terrorists before they got to Gitmo? Didn’t think so.
June 5th, 2009 at 6:15 pm“SGS, Got some proof they were all terrorists before they got to Gitmo? Didn’t think so.”
I think if you look at the economics of it they had to do something to be sent there. We have jails in the Middle East so why go to Gitmo unless you’re one of the bad ones? At least they were shooting at American soldiers which is wrong.
Peace out
June 5th, 2009 at 6:17 pmI think if you look at the economics of it they had to do something to be sent there. We have jails in the Middle East so why go to Gitmo unless you’re one of the bad ones? At least they were shooting at American soldiers which is wrong.
is it stream of consciousness friday today?
June 5th, 2009 at 6:20 pmShaquilla Goldstein-Sanchez Says:
I think if you look at the economics of it they had to do something to be sent there. We have jails in the Middle East so why go to Gitmo unless you’re one of the bad ones? At least they were shooting at American soldiers which is wrong.
Sure. The bounty on whoever the Afghanistan warlords captured, be them innocent or guilty, surely had nothing to do.
I mean, as long as we’re looking at the economics.
June 5th, 2009 at 6:21 pmSo let me ask you SGS, if someone was to invade your country without you asking for them, do you think you might be shooting at them?
June 5th, 2009 at 6:22 pmShaquilla,
Provide proof that all of the detainees were terrorists. The Chinese Moslems/Uighers were not terrorists, they were rounded up by bounty hunters – paid by the US.
June 5th, 2009 at 6:28 pmOOPs Muslims!
June 5th, 2009 at 6:29 pmI’m consistently underwhelmed by the supposed liberal media…like looking for the fountain of youth it seems…
June 5th, 2009 at 6:30 pmShaquilla Goldstein-Sanchez Says:
You should have stopped with the statement that you dont think MORON. You are so stupid your posts hurt my eyes
June 5th, 2009 at 6:35 pmShaquilla Goldstein-Sanchez Says:
Just go kill yourself. Changing your nick wont change the fact that nothing you do here will change how stupid and pathetic you are or how sad and pitiful your life is. Just do the right thing and go kill yourself
June 5th, 2009 at 6:36 pmhormiga brava chavez
Please this is an old troll with a new nick he isnt going to give evidence he doesnt even beleive the tripe he posts he is here to annoy us because his life is so pathetic he will do anything for attention including begging us to pity him. His life is empty no one likes him or respects him or ever will.
June 5th, 2009 at 6:37 pmFlag the racist piss-soaked Shaquilla Goldstein-Sanchez troll.
June 5th, 2009 at 6:37 pmcurious Says:
There will probably some that will go back to terrorism. Or some that will take it up because of being falsely imprisoned.
Using this argument, all jail sentences should be life without parole because some people might commit crimes if we ever let them out. In fact, even if we know someone’s innocent we should never let them go because having been arrested might cause them to become criminals. Ah screw it – we should throw everyone in jail forever because… and so forth.
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Shaquilla Goldstein-Sanchez Says:
I just think…
If you don’t have any reasons, then “thinking” isn’t the word for what you’re doing.
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Shaquilla Goldstein-Sanchez Says:
I think if you look at the economics of it they had to do something to be sent there. We have jails in the Middle East so why go to Gitmo unless you’re one of the bad ones?
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? Are you saying they went there voluntarily? How do you even operate a keyboard?
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Shaquilla Goldstein-Sanchez Says:
At least they were shooting at American soldiers which is wrong.
Words fail me. I think you just troll-fcuked my skull, congrats.
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hormiga brava chavez Says:
Provide proof that all of the detainees were terrorists.
Hell, they haven’t provided any proof that any are, so that’s a pretty tall order.
June 5th, 2009 at 6:46 pmNYT,
Oh…good for you…are you expecting a cookie for that? NOT!
When will you phucking apologize for The Bush War (in Iraq if you’re still clueless there) you help drag us into?
When you get your credibility back get back to me!!!!
June 5th, 2009 at 6:49 pmI have no use for ANY of the papers – not even the NY Times – crap like this is the reason why.
Our local paper force-fed us their self-serving corporatist swill for decades. We stopped buying any of them over 10 years ago – we were tired of wasting our money.
June 5th, 2009 at 6:50 pm*
Never mind that they keep him on a leash – with not money – and they have keep his mouth covered with duct tape. It’s a riot!
June 5th, 2009 at 6:54 pm*
I wish I could find it but Keith Olberman has referred to a study that found that the Pentagon thinks that a detainee participating in a movie about Gitmo was “returning to terrorism”.
Does anyone besides me find it odd that:
1) Their numbers keep changing and
June 5th, 2009 at 6:57 pm2) They don’t provide any proof
Ok, I have a question. If these detainees were really involved in terrorism, then why did Bush release them?
June 5th, 2009 at 7:02 pmTrittydi,
The Michael Steele scheme surely backfired on the Whig – I mean GOP!
June 5th, 2009 at 7:02 pmOff topic, but it looks like the trolls were right about something. Mudd is dropping out of the DHS position for being “in on” torture. The only problem is how do you find somebody qualified in intel (i.e. has had an intel job within the last eight years) who wasn’t?
June 5th, 2009 at 7:04 pmBilbo,
How do you “return to terrorism” unless you are committing a terrorist act?
Where are the bombs? Where’s the death? Who and how many have they killed? How many buildings have been destroyed?
This is complete BS from the gov’ment!!!
June 5th, 2009 at 7:04 pmYou know Bilbo, I’ve seen that episode on Keith Olbermann’s show at least 2 months ago.
I think Bush released certain detainees simply because they were not guilty. It just proves Bush/Cheney were hiring bounty hunters to round up any and everyone and not necessarily because they were suspected or guilty of anything. Money had to be a motivating factor for the bounty hunters involved.
Bush Crime Co. only prosecuted 3 detainees and released hundreds of others.
June 5th, 2009 at 7:10 pmFrom the only investigative newspaper left, McClatchy:
June 5th, 2009 at 7:10 pm
oops.. here’s the link:
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/detainees/story/38773.html
June 5th, 2009 at 7:10 pmElbruce,
the best way, which might be the hardest, is to go ahead and really push for independent investigation and prosecution. Get at the heart of it: see who agreed, who didn’t, who was complicity, who was decidedly not. This business as usual “looking forward, not back” will continue to come back to haunt us.
June 5th, 2009 at 7:12 pmF uck Mc-Snatch-chy.
June 5th, 2009 at 7:13 pmFrom Human Right’s Watch
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2007/12/03/us-give-guantanamo-detainees-fair-process
June 5th, 2009 at 7:15 pmOh It’s the troop’s fault, I see. F uck you liberals.
June 5th, 2009 at 7:15 pmlinder van tyrannist Says:
F uck Mc-Snatch-chy.
My, my, aren’t we the clever one. What’s the matter, do you have a problem with a newspaper that calls conservatives on their BS. McClatchy is one of the few remaining newspaper chains in this country that is not owned and operated by conservatives.
June 5th, 2009 at 7:16 pmlinder van tyrannist Says:
Oh It’s the troop’s fault, I see. F uck you liberals.
Would you care to point out where anyone here said it was the troop’s fault?
Your mom really does need to rinse your potty mouth out with soap.
June 5th, 2009 at 7:17 pmcurious Says:
Outside of a few sources, the news media in this country is owned and operated as part of the right wing political system. They don’t know nor care about what the MAJORITY of Americans feel or think. They spend so much time listening to their own voices and their own ideas, that they have lost track of what is really going on. This is why newspapers have failed. Not because no one reads. But simply because what we read is so wrong and so far removed from the reality of our lives and experience, that it is not familiar to most of us.
The only source of news and opinion the conservatives don’t control is the internet and they really hate it that they can’t.
I truly believe that if it was not for the internet, McCain (or Palin) would be President today.
All I can say is thank god for the internet.
June 5th, 2009 at 7:21 pmSounds like you speak from a cesspool of self hatred, an infinite degree of sorrow making you unable to look at yourself in the mirror…Please, do not reply, this does not mean I want to talk to you.
June 5th, 2009 at 7:24 pmlinder van terrorist is not very bright.
June 5th, 2009 at 7:25 pmOf course not. We knew that when he called himself Merdad.
June 5th, 2009 at 7:30 pmNo way…you don’t deserve GREAT SEX!!!
June 5th, 2009 at 7:36 pmOh ralph, I suspected that linder van terrorrist was proud and JohnM. I thought Merdad was brothabill and God because “it” always leaves these long drawn out pasted paragraphs! LOL
June 5th, 2009 at 7:46 pmNone of this stuff says anything about the people who have been released from Guanatamo Bay where it’s been proven they are not terrorists – those vouched for by the State Departments of our allies, for instance. We know for a fact that some of the ex-Gitmo-detainees were not terrorists. It has not been proven that any are.
This has been the case each time the total group has shrunk down – BushCo says that all that remain are terrorists without proof, and ultimately it turns out some of the remaining detainees were not terrorists after all. Then they say ok, this time all of the remaining detainees are really really terrorists, trust us. Now BushCo apologists are here saying it yet again. Why should we start believing them now?
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hormiga brava chavez Says:
It just proves Bush/Cheney were hiring bounty hunters to round up any and everyone and not necessarily because they were suspected or guilty of anything.
That didn’t need to be proven as it was independently reported back at the time that that’s exactly what they were doing.
Many of the people most at risk were those who were merely vacationing in Afghanistan. Locals knew they had no family around to vouch for them, so they could be turned in freely for the bounty. The U.S. was accepting anybody that anybody else turned in, without any evidence required. How could they require evidence? The purported crimes that terrorists were supposed to have committed were months or years in the past and miles or continents away.
I’d warrant that it’s probable that at least some of the detainees in Guantanamo Bay were indeed terrorists. But without evidence or any due process there’s no way whatsoever to establish that, much less which ones they might be.
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Realness Says:
the best way, which might be the hardest, is to go ahead and really push for independent investigation and prosecution.
Agreed. Since a presidential administration is implicated, the only responsible thing to do is to appoint a special prosecutor.
June 5th, 2009 at 7:54 pmThe dilemma of Gitmo would have never occured if due process had not been abandoned. They wanted to label the ‘9/11 type’ terrorist as a menace beyond our laws to cover up their fck-up.
It takes application of the law, but the potential consequence of false imprisonment or inhumane treatment should not affect that application.
June 5th, 2009 at 8:22 pmBite me Linder you ignorant punkass troll
June 5th, 2009 at 8:42 pm61 I reported you for being nasty.
June 5th, 2009 at 8:52 pmShaquilla Goldstein-Sanchez Says:
Try to imagine how little I care. You should report yourself for being unimaginably stupid
June 5th, 2009 at 9:21 pmSummer trolls, who doesn’t know what that’s about, huh? Dam*ed kids.
June 5th, 2009 at 9:23 pmSomeone help me here.
Is this photo above taken from the detainee “processing” at Gitmo or is it one of the photos President Obama saw today at Buchenwald?
June 5th, 2009 at 9:34 pmReductio ad Nazium, again, hey? I don’t think the Third Reich used orange jumpsuits. And the Soviets developed the sensory deprivation for the purposes of garnering false confessions—that’s what we’re looking at in this picture.
June 5th, 2009 at 10:04 pmReally? The Third Reich didn’t use Orange Jumpsuits?
Wow Wiley, thanks for clearing that up.
:|
I was having hard time distinguishing from the Orange Jumpsuits and the black and white striped suits the Nazi’s used.
What a huge difference.
June 5th, 2009 at 10:28 pmI know if I had to wear a black and white striped suit to with a cap to dehumanize me it would be so very much harder than wearing an orange or red one.
That makes it so very different, huh?
:|
The red is much more stylish.
June 5th, 2009 at 10:34 pmAnd thanks for explaining the sensory deprivation going on there.
:|
I thought the surgical masks meant they were training them to be cardiologists.
June 5th, 2009 at 10:34 pmWAYNEBRO Says:
And thanks for explaining the sensory deprivation going on there.
I remember when it came out in the 80’s that the KGB had been studying sensory deprivation techniques as torture, people were completely outraged. Turns out that sensory deprivation and forced sleep deprivation can permanently scar your mind well beyond any semblance of sanity. You basically fcuking with peoples’ neurons there.
June 5th, 2009 at 10:46 pmPerfectly healthy people who volunteered for sensory deprivation experiments had psychotic breaks within 48 hours. If they have been doing this to people for years, then they have in all likelihood made these people insane beyond any treatment known to man.
June 6th, 2009 at 12:43 amYea, that sounds nothing like anything the Nazi’s did…with all their medical and physiological experiments on the Jews.
I mean, the barbed wire..the guards walking around barking commands at the terrified prisoners cowering on their knees..
Looks nothing like a Nazi concentration camp.
:|
Can’t imagine what made me draw that comparison.
June 6th, 2009 at 1:28 amJesus Christ, Wayne! Hitler isn’t even Hitler anymore. Give it a rest. It is what it is right now, and it’s wrong enough without being compared to Hitler. Nothing has to be compared to Hitler in order to be atrocious. In every single war there are prison camps. In this one there was illegal and abominable abuse and torture. Let it be what it is. We don’t have to think HITLER to think EVIL.
June 6th, 2009 at 1:44 amFirst off all I don’t recall my comments being subject to YOUR approval.
Secondly, anyone with half a brain in their head knows that the comparisons to our invasion of Iraq, and the subsequent subjection of the Muslims, draws direct parallels to Hitler’s invasion of Poland, and the subsequent subjection of the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto. From the claims of protecting the homeland from Polish terrorists to the resistance and insurgent combatants and their use of “improvised explosives” to the prison camps, the abuse, the use of psychological terror, murder, rape, and so on. The similarities are striking.
The comparisons are there for anyone with half a brain and a willingness to remember what we should never forget and what most in this please me now generation have forgotten.
And I can’t think of a better day to remember and acknowledge these comparisons than today, since just hours ago for the first time in history, a US President visited Buchenwald, and from there, admonished us all to never forget and exhorted us to dialogue on it.
In fact, in his speech today at Buchenwald President Obama alluded to the torture and cruelty at Gitmo, and reminded us slyly of the comparison to Buchenwald, acknowledging the “cruelty we are all capable of”.
Of course, I guess he should listen to some half baked moron on the internet like you, who thought 200 Million died in World War II and doesn’t think the holocaust gives the Jews any special position to define the war.
I guess he should also just “give it a rest”, huh genius?
June 6th, 2009 at 2:09 am
And by the way pinhead, no one said ANYTHING about Hitler, other than you.
I was referring to the Nazi’s, and their tactics, techniques and methodologies and the parallels to ours in Gitmo.
Apparently you’re too stupid to know the difference.
June 6th, 2009 at 2:15 amwiley Says:
Jesus Christ, Wayne! Hitler isn’t even Hitler anymore. Give it a rest. It is what it is right now, and it’s wrong enough without being compared to Hitler. Nothing has to be compared to Hitler in order to be atrocious. In every single war there are prison camps. In this one there was illegal and abominable abuse and torture. Let it be what it is. We don’t have to think HITLER to think EVIL.
June 6th, 2009 at 1:44 am
Excellent point, wiley.
June 6th, 2009 at 2:18 amYea Zooey, excellent point. Except I said nothing about Hitler, so it’s a lie.
June 6th, 2009 at 2:20 amNot to mention on the day President Obama admonished us to remember the Holocaust, and to look for similar cruelty in us all, this genius is admonishing us to forget it.
With your help now.
June 6th, 2009 at 2:21 amWell Waynebro, not everything is about you.
I think she has an excellent point — outside of her responses to you.
June 6th, 2009 at 2:22 amFor years American children growing up in the 60’s studied the holocaust, and were vigilant in asking the great question.
How could this happen?
“How could a people, become so apathetic, and ignorant, as to be lulled to sleep by a radical right wing ideology?”
How could such things happen.
And for years, the Jewish people have tried to keep the memory alive, so as the inscription over the door to the holocaust museum here in DC states, “Lest we forget”.
And on the day, the first time in US history, a US President visits Buchenwald, and acknowledges not only the similar capabilities in us all, and the comparisons to recent cruelty, like the cruelty at gitmo which this thread is about, he also admonishes us to “never forget”.
And yet we have two geniuses named Zooey and Wiley, admonishing us on that very same day, to forget.
Maybe you could post some more flirty tweets or something Zooey. That’s what you’re good at.
June 6th, 2009 at 2:26 amwiley Says:
Yes, the Holocaust has a special meaning for Jews, but it doesn’t give them the right to define World War II entirely in their terms or to define Germans, for that matter. 27 million Russians died at the hands of the Third Reich, too. 200 million total—all over the world. War is insane. The Germans had a lot more going on than the persecution of Jews, had they not, it’s doubtful that they could have carried out the Holocaust, which is one of countless atrocities in the human project—most of them carried out in a time of war when otherwise non-violent people commit unconscionable acts that they had previously thought they were not capable.
Here. Here’s one of wileys “excellent points” the last time the holocaust was being discussed.
This POS is about one step up from a Holocaust denier, and that’s only because he\she\it is too stupid to know anything about the Holocaust, and to apathetic about it to try and learn.
So excuse me if I don’t genuflex to your jumping in to support another call from a pinhead who’s goal is to shout down any real discussion on the holocaust, the methods of the Nazi’s, and their comparisons to modern times.
June 6th, 2009 at 2:32 amGet bent, Waynebro. You actually think every comment posted on any thread you’re on is aimed at you. You’re nuts.
Seek mental help, arsehole. The world will be a better place.
June 6th, 2009 at 2:32 amThis ones actually an excuse for the Holocaust.
Yea, wiley sure has some “excellent points”.
:|
If’ you’re a white supremacist.
June 6th, 2009 at 2:35 amYea, that’s about your speed Zooey.
Wiley attacks me out of the blue. I simply made a comment asking whether the pictures were of Obama’s trip to Buchenwald, (since for the first time in history a US President visited Buchenwald) and wiley attacks me.
He continues to attack me, and then you come into the middle, quote his comment attacking me, and say “excellent point”.
And then say it’s not about me.
Well, next time you’re arguing with a troll, I’ll be sure to tell the troll what excellent points he making.
Especially when he’s downplaying something like the HOLOCAUST.
:|
But don’t worry, it won’t be about you.
June 6th, 2009 at 2:38 amYea, it wasn’t about me.
Just because it was ADDRESSED to me, …with MY NAME…my name which you REPOSTED….but….it wasn’t about me.
:|
Who’s the one who needs treatment again? Or is it glasses?
June 6th, 2009 at 2:43 amNo, it was not about YOU. I skipped to the bottom of the thread and commented on wiley’s comment. If I’d known the “Wayne” she was responding to was you, I wouldn’t have bothered.
You are a total expert on willfully misunderstanding the comments and/or intent of other commenters or thinking you’re being “attacked,” and then doing your assholierthanthou routine of being shocked, just SHOCKED, that someone could say such a thing — for hours, days, weeks on end.
You are the attacker, Waynebro. You always have been. You look for even the smallest reason to go off on someone. That’s really sick.
I’m serious. I’ve said it before, and I’m saying it again.
SEEK HELP.
June 6th, 2009 at 2:45 amNow, go ahead and froth at the mouth about the injustice of being “attacked” for the rest of the night.
I’ll check back in the morning for a laugh.
Toodles.
June 6th, 2009 at 2:47 amWell, since “she” quoted me, and then you quoted her response to me, and since me and her were the only two talking, who’d you think it was, when you copied and reprinted my name?
As for the seeking help part, if being normal means being a twit who cheers on someone downplaying the holocaust and demanding “We forget it”, I’d advise you to seek the help….only you might end up with a Jewish doctor.
:|
Wouldn’t want that.
June 6th, 2009 at 2:48 amI mean you do understand you just came into a thread where she was attacking someone for comparing gitmo to Buchenwald, on the day that a US President for the FIRST TIME IN HISTORY, President Obama…visited Buchenwald, right?
And drew similar albeit more carefully crafted comparisons himself.
So if you wanted me to stop, then that means you think the President should also just “shut up” about it, right?
Just “forget the Holocaust” and don’t make comparisons to it…right?
:|
With you two “Holocaust forgetters” …who needs deniers?
In fact, lets just change the statement over the Holocaust museum from “Lest we forget” to “Lets we forget”.
:|
All we have to do is move an “s”.
We can make the Muslims do it. They’re good with stone I hear.
June 6th, 2009 at 2:51 amZooey, the day I care about some half baked tweety twit like you “attacking me” is the day I lay down and die.
And as for my “continuing on for days”, I couldn’t very well do that if the other person didn’t also continue on for days.
But since you have an axe to grind with me, you purposely insert yourself in discussions I’m having with others, then act like I’m crazy for responding to you, and tell me to seek the help you so desperately need yourself.
So I’ve got a better idea.
Why don’t you just ignore me, and I’ll continue to ignore the endless dribble and mindless high school nonsense that emanates perpetually from your keyboard like I usually do?
I’m fine with that arrangement.
June 6th, 2009 at 2:57 amEspecially since now the people you are cheering on are busy demanding we forget the holocaust.
June 6th, 2009 at 2:58 am:|
June 6th, 2009 at 3:02 amI love it when us libs get into a fight with each other. It prove we’re not slaves to groupthink like the goosestepping wingnuts are.
.
WAYNEBRO Says:
Looks nothing like a Nazi concentration camp.
:|
Can’t imagine what made me draw that comparison.
The hand of Godwin?
.
wiley Says:
It is what it is right now, and it’s wrong enough without being compared to Hitler. Nothing has to be compared to Hitler in order to be atrocious.
This is a good point – screw Hitler, we’ve got our own 21st century horrors. Everything bad that happens from now on can be compared to this. This is bad enough to set its own watermark on the new century.
However…
Comparisons to previous atrocities are important, especially considering that even so, there are people running around claiming that this isn’t very bad. By pointing out the similarities to the atrocities of the past, atrocities which even the BushCo apologists would not excuse, we drive a wedge between what they claim to hate in the past, and what they defend today.
As WAYNEBRO points out, Obama spoke from Buchenwald today and adressed the instructive relevance of the Holocaust specifically. Considering that the U.S.A. is currently running its own concentration camp, Nazi Germany is fairly relevant.
All in all, I’ve got to say it isn’t quite yet time to lay “never forget” to rest. Perhaps once we’ve actually seen justice for the Iraq invasion, Abu Ghraib and Guantamo Bay, we can move forward and use those atrocities as the benchmark for barbarity in the new century. But we don’t have justice yet. Until we do, the Holocaust remains relevant.
.
WAYNEBRO Says:
And by the way pinhead, no one said ANYTHING about Hitler, other than you.
I was referring to the Nazi’s, and their tactics, techniques and methodologies and the parallels to ours in Gitmo.
Apparently you’re too stupid to know the difference.
There’s a difference between Hitler and the Nazi party? Kind of the point of a dictatorship is that the party does what the dictator wants… if they’re not the same thing, then some Nazis weren’t doing their jobs.
Sounds like you’re splitting hairs on this bit.
.
WAYNEBRO Says:
…you purposely insert yourself in discussions I’m having with others…
Hi! Welcome to ThinkProgress! Enjoy your stay!
June 6th, 2009 at 3:24 amDidn’t say there was a difference. Said I was talking about the tactics of the Nazi’s, which were primarily invented (if you want to split hairs) by Hitler’s henchmen, not Hitler himself. He said get it done, they decided the manners in which it got done. Himmler, Hoess, Goethe, Mengele, etc were in the details.
Everytime someone brings up the Nazi’s, they’re not talking about Hitler.
And who exactly was I supposed to be “comparing Hitler” too?
I was talking about how that picture looked in comparison to images from the death camps.
So which “person” was I comparing Hitler too.
Sounds like you’re the one “splitting hairs” here, trying to impress Zooey or something.
I never mentioned Hitler. Yet wiley accused me of it repeatedly.
And that makes ME wrong?
Grow up and stop trying to impress your blog mistress.
June 6th, 2009 at 3:30 amBeen blogging here for years, and reading Zooey’s passive aggressive jabs for the same.
Don’t need a welcome from a guy who think any discussion of the tactics and techniques of the Nazi’s means you’re “talking about Hitler”.
But thanks for the thought.
June 6th, 2009 at 3:34 amTwice now wiley’s condemned the comparisons of our invasion of Iraq and the subsequent occupation and the persecution of the Muslims to the striking similarities to the Nazi’s persecution of the Jews and their invasion and occupation of Poland, and no one speaks up against that.
That sort of antisemitic rhetoric one would think would be condemned and harshly in a progressive blog, but instead it’s not. Instead its cheered on by some, ignored by others, while they focus on personal attacks and silly bickering.
Today was a huge day in history. For the first time in history, a US President, our President, President Obama, visited Buchenwald. He even made a speech from there, along with Andrea Merkel and a Buchenwald survivor, and in it, warned us to heed the lessons of the Holocaust and how that sort of evil can rise up even within our own ranks.
Yet not a word about it.
Instead, when someone makes ONE comment about it… and I only made ONE comment, out comes “wiley”, to mock and ridicule it and then when I explain the poignancy of the comment in relation to the events earlier today, wiley demands I not draw such comparisons, demoting the importance of the Holocaust and ignoring the significance of discussing it on this day. Not to mention the Anniversary of the allied landings in Normandy, which marked the beginning of the end of Nazi Germany.
What better day to discuss these events?
Can’t think of a more important one.
My father and all my uncles fought in that war. But I’m to forget it, because “wiley” who thinks “200 million” people died in WWII, demands I not discuss it, and not draw the comparisons, on this the historic anniversary of those events, and on this historic step by a US President, and his speech on the subject, where he drew the comparisons of it to today.
And then comes Zooey, cheering wiley on in his attempts to ignore the Holocaust and the lessons from it, on this significant, historic day, and then out comes more cheerleaders, to help sell their Holocaust apathy.
Here on the anniversary of D-Day.
Yea, “welcome to Think Progress”.
June 6th, 2009 at 3:49 amJune 6th, 2009 at 3:59 am
June 6th, 2009 at 4:12 am
thank you seslisohbet seslichat sesli sohbet sesli chat
June 6th, 2009 at 4:27 amWAYNEBRO Says:
Didn’t say there was a difference. Said I was talking about the tactics of the Nazi’s, which were primarily invented (if you want to split hairs) by Hitler’s henchmen, not Hitler himself. He said get it done, they decided the manners in which it got done. Himmler, Hoess, Goethe, Mengele, etc were in the details.
Sometimes I say “Bush” instead of “the Bush administration,” which includes Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Gonzales, Ridge, Wolfowitz, Tenet, Hayden, Negroponte, etc. Complaining at someone else that they are two different things is being… defensive, to say the least.
.
WAYNEBRO Says:
Been blogging here for years, and reading Zooey’s passive aggressive jabs for the same.
Don’t need a welcome from a guy who think any discussion of the tactics and techniques of the Nazi’s means you’re “talking about Hitler”.
But thanks for the thought.
That was a little sarcastic. I’ll spell it out – when I said “Hi! Welcome to ThinkProgress! Enjoy your stay!” what I meant was a not-so-subtle dig that you apparently didn’t know how things work. You had insinuated that you were having a private discussion with wiley, when Zooey butted in. As this is a public thread, there is no such thing as “butting in,” since we’re all always doing it at the same time.
You know, I’d totally be on your side if you weren’t simultaneously lashing out at everyone around you.
.
republicans hate facts Says:
Waynebro, just BECOME A REPUBLICAN and STFU like a GOOD LITTLE NAZi…
Dude, you just totally launched yourself off the rails into outer space there. Read a little more carefully before you go after throats, ‘k?
June 6th, 2009 at 4:30 amPresident Barack Obama
Speech at Buchenwald
:|
Zooey Says:
June 6th, 2009 at 4:31 am
No, I had “insinuated” that Zooey butted into a debate on the holocaust, sided with the holocaust downplayer, and then was displaying incredible hubris in mocking me for responding to her, as if I was “crazy” for bothering to point out the ignorance of agreeing with someone downplaying the holocaust on the Anniversary of D-DAY.
AND on the historic day that a US President for the first time in world history visited Buchenwald, and spoke from it, admonishing us all to not “silence” discussion on the holocaust.
:|
But again, thanks for the thought.
June 6th, 2009 at 4:36 amJune 6th, 2009 at 4:40 am
June 6th, 2009 at 4:44 am
Hey WAYNEBRO – thanks for turning basically everybody around here completely anti-Semitic. Really appreciate it. Now I’m going to have to work extra hard talk them all down later on.
June 6th, 2009 at 4:46 amHow many Muslim dead from the WOT? How about 5 million Iraqi orphans? Got tell them how important the Holocaust is right now. Tell the prisoners at GITMO.
Of course, anyone who doesn’t want to relate every single evil to the Holocaust, and think that it cheapens the Holocaust and denies the singular importance of what is happening to the living right now, is shoveling Jews into ovens. Way to win friends and influence people, Waynebro. You should run for office!
June 6th, 2009 at 4:52 amIts the anniversary of D-Day you mental midget.
And the President just spoke from Buchenwald admonishing us to remember the victims and the lessons of the holocaust.
So I made ONE comment about it.
And you ignorantly shouted it down, demanding we not discuss the holocaust.
Well f#$k you.
My family has ties to that, and on this day, the day my Uncle Bill landed on the beaches of Normandy, I’ll be damned if some two bit dimwit on the Internet who knows nothing about he holocaust is going to tell me not to talk about it.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:00 amAll I can say is it’s so heartwarming to hear the “regulars” in here “identifying with the victims” on this the anniversary of the allied landings in Normandy, and on the day the first US President ever in history spoke from the death camps at Buchenwald.
Like Bruce said, “welcome to Think Progress”.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:03 amOh and one more thing “wiley” you antisemitic know nothing buffoon.
What “cheapens the holocaust” is when ignorant apathetic pricks like you not only ignore, but demand others ignore OBVIOUS comparisons in events unfolding today, that have distinct characteristics of the Holocaust and or the events that led up to it.
When I see prisoners bound, on their knees wearing the same sort of ugly uniforms, heads bowed in terror, guards walking around them screaming abuse beneath the shadow of the barbed wire, then it’s impossible to NOT think of the Holocaust, and the eerie similarities in both spirit and appearance.
You on the other hand, who are so ignorant of the events of WWII that you thought 200 million people were killed, and who demands I be silent on these glaring issues, on this day of all days, can kiss my ass.
When I want your ignorant, antisemitic holocaust downplaying opinions, I’ll give them to you.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:10 amOh now I’m responsible for THEIR antisemitism?
I made ONE comment, about Buchenwald and the similarity of that picture above to the images President Obama saw and spoke of today, and that was enough to make them downplay the holocaust and attack me demanding I speak no more of it?
Wow.
Didn’t know it was that easy for someone to be antisemitic.
Guess all those other comments they’ve made over the years about Israel and the Jews were my fault too huh?
:|
I didn’t realize I had such power over them. I mean,…to control their thought processes and all.
Go figure.
Course, it couldn’t be that wiley was still fuming from being shown to be a know nothing moron when he started with his antisemitic nonsense the other day, and was looking for a chance to get back at me, could it?
Nahhh….its much more easy to believe that I made them antisemitic with my ONE COMMENT about that picture and Buchenwald.
That ONE comment just turned him into a raving anti-Semite.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:26 amTHATS the whole reason for drawing the comparisons.
:|
How stupid do you have to be to not get that?
We are supposed to learn from the Holocaust so it doesn’t happen again.
But clearly we haven’t learned.
And by the way, it’s not the helpless prisoners at GITMO who need to Learn the Lessons of the Holocaust.
It’s US.
And if you can look at a photo of prisoners forced to kneel before their masters, being terrorized and screamed at beneath the shadow of the barbed wires, terrorized by the German Shepard dogs, hoods over heads, bussed in in the back of Deuce and a Half trucks like Jews in a cattle car, then I can’t help you.
Especially today, the Anniversary of D-Day, and the same day when the President stood on the steps of Buchenwald can called for us to remember and learn from the events of the Holocaust and how that sort of evil sneaks up on us.
If on such a day you can call for silence on the talk of the Holocaust and the comparisons of events of today then you’re either an apathetic fool or an anti-Semite.
Or both.
Or you have another agenda. And don’t want people to see the similarities between Gitmo and the Nazi Concentration camps.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:59 am“It is up to us to bear witness; to ensure that the world continues to note what happened here; to remember all those who survived and all those who perished”
President Barack Obama
June 6th, 2009 at 6:07 amYesterday, From Buchenwald
Hey Waynebro, it looks like you and sesli are competing for most unanswered posts.
It looks like you’re in the lead so far.
Keep it up.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:30 amHow did I know!? :-D
Waynebro (this one is for you), I’ve always thought you were a brilliant person, but calling me and wiley Holocaust deniers and anti-Semites means you are stunningly clueless imbecile with absolutely no social skills.
Have a nice life.
June 6th, 2009 at 11:51 amWow. WAYNEBRO is really getting a head of steam these days with his combative nature.
I would not be at all surprised to learn that WAYNEBRO is in fact BARTLEBEE.
June 6th, 2009 at 12:04 pmralph the wonder locust Says:
I would not be at all surprised to learn that WAYNEBRO is in fact BARTLEBEE.
June 6th, 2009 at 12:04 pm
I thought everyone knew that, ralph. :-)
June 6th, 2009 at 12:14 pmCorrection delayed is truth denied.
June 6th, 2009 at 2:55 pmWell since I didn’t call you Holocaust “DENIERS” but instead called WILEY a “holocaust downplayer” and pointed out that you cheered him on in that, then that would make you the “stunningly clueless imbecile”.
Being as you’re lying about what I said.
Wiley has made repeated statements downplaying the role of the Holocaust and worse, on a day that President Obama visited Buchenwald.
You cheered him on in that last night, and that to me speaks more poorly of your “social skills” than mine.
I know you probably didn’t bother to read what he wrote. Hell you didn’t even seem to know who he was talking to even though it was just him and me talking. You probably saw the comment, saw me arguing with someone, and did like you always do in those instances and just arbitrarily cheered him on.
Because in your mind it seems that if I’m arguing with someone, then I must be “misbehaving”.
This isn’t the first time you’ve done this.
You have an axe to grind with me, and you jump at the opportunities to take a debate I’m having with someone else, and turn it into your personal attacks on me.
So I’m used to it.
But at least get your facts straight.
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And of course the “regulars”, or “Zooey’s cuckolds” as I prefer to call them, jump in to take the personal attacks further, worrying about who I am, and my personality, instead of bothering to notice that wiley, who’s repeatedly now made disgusting antisemitic comments DOWNPLAYING the Holocaust, came in last night after I made ONE SINGLE SMALL COMMENT, comparing this picture to the images from Buchenwald, on the DAY President Obama VISITED BUCHENWALD.
:|
Thus my ONE SINGLE LONE COMMENT, was perfectly in context with this thread, and with the events of the day. Not to mention it was on the eve of the Anniversary of D-DAY.
Yet “wiley” chose to attack me and that comment, mocking me, dismissing my comment and then when I dared to respond pointing out the hubris in belittling my ONE SINGLE COMMENT, he went off, demanding I not talk about the Holocaust and lying claiming I was speaking about Hitler.
And while we were debating that, you come in, and cheer his comments on. Comments that BELITTLED the Holocaust and insulted me.
Then your friends come in, like the antisemitic “RHF” who in all caps screams denunciations of the Holocaust and the Jews, and yet I’m the one with poor social skills?
Who gives a sh$t who I am? You guys have made a stink everytime you argue with me over a handle I used to use, as if it were some secret you were exposing to further make it personal about me.
Well, my comments weren’t about me. They were timely, accurate comments made about the topic of the thread, and wiley chose to attack them and me personally, belittle the holocaust and then you chose to “pile on” and cheer on his antisemitic rhetoric.
If that makes me the imbecile, then fine. I’d rather be an imbecile than a person who belittles the holocaust and launches personal attacks demanding we “forget” the events on the very day we’re all supposed to be remembering them, or the person cheering such nonsense on.
June 6th, 2009 at 3:25 pm:|
This was in response to ONE comment I made noting the eerie similarities of the photos from Guantanamo with images we have from Buchenwald.
And on the day President Obama visited Buchenwald, and spoke from there for the FIRST TIME IN HISTORY, ever….and admonished us to all not forget and to keep the dialogue on it open.
On THIS day, this special day of remembrance, wiley exploded at one comment on the subject, and demanded we NOT talk about it.
Even though we were supposed to.
And you Zooey, cheered that on as an “excellent point”.
Downplaying the holocaust is for anti-Semites, not for decent people.
You were wrong here. You were both wrong. Very very wrong.
And regardless of how many of your cuckolded friends chose to pile on, your comments and wiley’s were obnoxious, outrageous and downright antisemitic given the day and the events being honored and remembered.
So go on, gather your crowd of buffoons to cry and scream about “bartlebee” and how mean and stupid I am.
But you know what you said was wrong, and what wiley said was way, way way wrong. And all the personal attacks you can muster won’t change that.
It ain’t about me. It’s about 6 million Jews who died in the camps by the hands of their own government, and the lessons we are supposed to be learning from those events.
Lessons “wiley” would rather just “go away”. Lessons that make wiley angry to hear someone reference. Lessons that wiley, and apparently you, have yet to learn.
June 6th, 2009 at 3:41 pmWAYNEBRO Says:
Oh now I’m responsible for THEIR antisemitism?
Downtown in my city, there’s this guy with a bullhorn who holds a bible and screams about how everybody’s going to hell. I imagine he thinks he’s evangelizing, turning more people to Christianity so that they can go to heaven. However, most of the teenagers who hang out there hate Christianity, in a large part due to people like him. So even if you believe in his worldview, he’s actually damning people, or basically anti-evangelizing; he’s furthering the cause of Satan.
If you’re going to immediately go for the jugular veins of anybody who makes a statement indicating they don’t take the Holocaust seriously enough, rather than educating them and bringing them around as to why it’s still relevant, then you’re actively helping the Holocaust-denier community.
As I pointed out in my first post, while it may seem like a good idea to put the Holocaust in the past and judge Gitmo on its own merits, ultimately making those comparisons can be instructive. On the other hand, there’s a tendency to call anything a Nazi in online political discussions, so it can lose some degree of power if not handled delicately.
Handling it delicately is the opposite of what you’ve done here.
June 6th, 2009 at 4:40 pmYea, and as I pointed out in my response, there will always be ignorant people who would like to “put the Holocaust in the past” and not use it as a lesson from history when examining our own actions and events as they unfold.
Which is why President Obama, Angela Merkel and Elie Weisel, a Holocaust survivor challenged us yesterday to not give in to such weak minded people for whom the lessons of the Holocaust are best “left in the past”.
So once more, pardon if I don’t genuflex at your ignorant arrogance in presuming to suggest that on this the anniversary of D-Day, and following the historic speech of our President from Buchenwald yesterday, the FIRST EVER of its kind from that location, in which he admonished us to NOT forget but to learn from those lessons of Buchenwald and the Holocaust, that its’ “better to leave the Holocaust in the past”.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:56 pmBy the way I don’t mean “your” suggestions. That was a typo. I meant “their” suggestions.
As for you, you’re just part of the pile on, worrying about how I respond to the antisemitic rants of wiley, who attacked ME.
Not the other way around, as your comments imply.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:59 pmAnd while I’m at it, lets flush this turd too.
Another one of your lies in an attempt to discredit me personally, rather than taking two minutes to actually READ what was written.
I didn’t “immediately go” for anything.
Wiley made horrific antisemitic comments to me just 3 days ago, demanding I stop talking about the Holocaust.
Then last night, when I made ONE SINGLE SOLITARY comment about Buchenwald, WILEY pounced. Not me. He didn’t make a comment that indicated he didn’t take it seriously enough.
He essentially insisted that I STOP talking about it. Again!
And I didn’t “go for his jugular”, but instead, made three slightly sarcastic comments demonstrating how accurate my observations were with regards to the photos.
And then HE went for the jugular, with this.
And instead of standing up to this sort of nonsense, DEMANDING that I “give it a rest” and not talk about the Holocaust (or about Hitler as this mental midget falsely stated repeatedly) he got a little “recommend” from one of the other antisemitic holocaust downplayers here, most likely Zooey, who then commented that he had made “excellent points”.
In fact NO ONE spoke out against this sort of ignorance.
Not even you. Instead you just “piled on” to the personality bandwagon whining about my attitude in response to an antisemitic rant from a moron who knows nothing about WWII, and who showered me with antisemitic holocaust downplaying rhetoric just 3 days earlier.
When you can stop worrying about my “personality” which is what it is and hasn’t changed in the 4+ years I’ve been blogging here, and start looking at some of the hateful holocaust downplaying filth speech being sold by the “regulars” here like wiley and RHF, then you’ll be doing something. In the meantime, you’re just another blog-socialite, placating to ignorant hate speech and lies, so you can be admired by your “friends”.
June 6th, 2009 at 6:25 pmWiley on the other hand thinks we should just “fegetabbouddit”.
As does RHF and apparently Zooey, who stated to wiley’s comments to forget about it, and I quote “excellent points”.
:|
And as for what you think, it’s hard to tell because you’re too busy positioning yourself as Doctor Phil.
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June 6th, 2009 at 8:27 pmolmas? gerekn
I knew he would still be wallpapering this thread. I take the Holocaust seriously enough not to wear it out. I am not nor have I ever been anti-semitic. I’m agnostic. Why in the world would I be anti-semitic? The assertion that I would “forget” or approve of any persecution and systematic murder is anti-social.
When a person looks at a picture of Muslims being persecuted in the WOT, which is a jihad against the Muslim world for the benefit of big OIL and the military industrial complex, and brings up the Holocaust I have to suspect that they are anti-Islam. This person has clearly turned their back on the evil that is being perpetuated by the U.S. against the Muslim world, to look at the persecution of Jews by Germany in the 20th century and is inviting us to look at that instead.
The only Jews remotely in this picture are neo-cons. They are the persecutors. I don’t blame world Jewry for that. I blame the neo-cons for what they’ve wrought.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:50 pmWAYNEBRO Says:
Instead you just “piled on” to the personality bandwagon whining about my attitude…
Yeah, your attitude really sucks. Did I mention that? It could stand a few more mentions, then.
.
wiley Says:
This person has clearly turned their back on the evil that is being perpetuated by the U.S. against the Muslim world, to look at the persecution of Jews by Germany in the 20th century and is inviting us to look at that instead.
The only Jews remotely in this picture are neo-cons.
I can’t get behind the notion that bringing up the Holocaust is a subtle anti-Muslim tactic. The only people who think that Judaism and Islam are necessarily polarized against each other are all asshats. The significant thing is not who was persecuted where, but how bad the persecution was and under what surrounding circumstances.
June 7th, 2009 at 3:51 amI don’t think they’re polarized, but I do think that bringing up the Holocaust when the topic is the persecution of Muslims is specious, and the knee-jerk reaction of bringing up the Holocaust every time evil is the issue is getting to be perverse. Godwin’s law. It’s making itself worthy of ridicule and do we want something worthy of ridicule to be tied to the Holocaust?
Not to mention the difficulty of criticising Israel without being accused of anti-semitism. Sometimes I just want to say, “FINE. I’m an anti-semite”. But I’m not.
What we see in this picture is our evil in the 21st century—right now, in fact—not Germany’s, not a mystical recurring nightmare. I think we should look at it squarely in real-time and ponder our fear and mischaracterization of Islam.
June 7th, 2009 at 5:50 amwiley Says:
I don’t think they’re polarized, but I do think that bringing up the Holocaust when the topic is the persecution of Muslims is specious, and the knee-jerk reaction of bringing up the Holocaust every time evil is the issue is getting to be perverse. Godwin’s law.
Bringing up the Holocaust when the topic is persecution is fine, regardless of who’s being persecuted. In fact, I think it would be instructive to many to compare the persecution of Muslims today with the persecution of Jews in the past.
I agree that it often gets over-used, and perhaps that may water down the impact somewhat. But when we’re talking about really horrific things actually going on today, it may actually be a relevant comparison, Godwin or not.
I’d say that if one is going to do it, they need to make it quite clear what the real comparison is as events stand, and not engage in any slippery-sloping. I’m not going to go page-up and make a call on whether WAYNEBRO did that appropriately in this discussion, I’m just tossing it out there as a benchmark for future ones.
June 7th, 2009 at 5:59 amI won’t argue with you Bruce.
June 7th, 2009 at 6:32 amI knew he would still be wallpapering this thread. I take the Holocaust seriously enough not to wear it out. I am not nor have I ever been anti-semitic. I’m agnostic. Why in the world would I be anti-semitic? The assertion that I would “forget” or approve of any persecution and systematic murder is anti-social.
June 7th, 2009 at 11:46 amWrong.
Learning the lessons of the Holocaust and COMPARING them to similar offenses in modern times does not make us “look at that instead”.
How ignorant does one have to be to not see this?
How many years do we have to have drilled into our heads, “learn from the holocaust so that it does not repeat itself”, before people like you actually do learn from it?
In all my life I can honestly say I never thought I’d hear a liberal or “progressive” denouncing the remembrance of the Holocaust or the comparison of it to modern events.
But what’s worse, you did it on a day when all of the world remembers it, and the events that led to the liberation of the Jews from the death camps, i.e. the allied landings in Normandy.
In fact, you did it on a day, that for the FIRST TIME IN HISTORY, a US President VISITED BUCHENWALD and SPOKE THERE along side of the Chancellor of Germany, and HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS, ALL WHO IMPLORED US TO NEVER EVER EVER FORGET, and to NEVER CEASE THE DIALOGUE ON IT.
Lest it happen again.
Yet here you are, on this of all days, demanding we DO FORGET IT, or as you put it “LEAVE IT IN THE PAST”.
It’s ignorance and apathy like that, that ensures it will happen again.
And keep on happening until fools like you are no more.
June 7th, 2009 at 5:48 pmSesli Sohbet
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For that matter, how many of us would want to go before a court that, of those convicted, 85% were innocent ?
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