Gingrich: Americans ‘surrounded by paganism.’
Gingrich: Americans ‘surrounded by paganism.’
On Friday, Newt Gingrich, Mike Huckabee, and Oliver North visited Rock Church in Hampton Roads, Virginia to give a three-hour long lecture on “Rediscovering God in America.” The speakers warned the audience about the “continuing availability of abortion, the spread of gay rights, and attempts to remove religion from American public life and school history books.” The Virginia-Pilot reported that Gingrich argued that, while Christianity is the foundation of American citizenship, Americans are experiencing a period where they are being “surrounded by paganism”:
GINGRICH: I am not a citizen of the world. I am a citizen of the United States because only in the United States does citizenship start with our creator. [...] I think this is one of the most critical moments in American history. We are living in a period where we are surrounded by paganism.
Huckabee also equated America’s victory against the British in the Revolutionary War with the right-wing’s success in the Proposition 8 fight in California as being miracles “from God’s hand.”
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OOOOooooOOoooOOOooooh!!!!!
Pagans????? I’m askeered!!!!!!!
June 6th, 2009 at 4:33 pmThe serial adulterer, the defender of rapists and the con artist who committed high treason are telling us why we’re not Godly enough.
June 6th, 2009 at 4:34 pmI give up on ever trying to parody these clowns. They’re always a step ahead.
Your thoughts bit? Darryl?
June 6th, 2009 at 4:34 pmGingrich argued that, while Christianity is the foundation of American citizenship…
I always thought that Liberty was the foundation of American citizenship. I find this argument to be completely without merit or factual underpinnings. In fact, what he is saying is that to be an American, you have to be Christian. That is not only wrong, it is offensive.
Newt, go to Hell, you un-Christian philandering phuck, you.
June 6th, 2009 at 4:36 pm“..only in the United States does citizenship start with our creator.”
I thought that citizenship starts in the U.S. either when someone is born in the U.S. or its possessions, or when someone not born in the U.S. elects to take the citizenship test. Anybody know whether the citizenship test includes religious questions?
June 6th, 2009 at 4:36 pmWhat does he have against Santa Claus. O’Reilly will be very unhappy.
June 6th, 2009 at 4:39 pmHonestly, I think Gingrich is a citizen of Planet Zuto. This is why he doesn’t make any sense.
June 6th, 2009 at 4:39 pmWait until Gingrich finds out that Jesus isn’t real nor is the guy who sits up in the clouds on a throne. Oh boy. He’ll have to publicly apologize to the Pagans and the Atheists! What a great day that will be for all mankind.
June 6th, 2009 at 4:42 pmI wonder what thoughts were running thru newt’s head while he was dumping his second wife in her hospital bed (with cancer) and then commiting adultery with his intern who later turned out to be his third wife?
Hypocrite Chickenhawk Zealot
June 6th, 2009 at 4:43 pmWait until Gingrich finds out our Forefathers came to America to give themselves a better life, you know, free from religious persecution and a tyrannical leader, which incidentally is funny because this is the how Gingrich is currently demonstrating.
June 6th, 2009 at 4:44 pmPsssst, Newt! Jesus is coming — and boy, is he PISSED!!!
June 6th, 2009 at 4:44 pmFrom the link :
Gingrich, now a consultant and author, said the ties to religion in American government date to the Declaration of Independence, when Thomas Jefferson wrote that men are endowed by God with certain inalienable rights.
Maybe Salamander Boy should have consulted Google ; Jefferson wrote that men are endowed by their “CREATOR” with certain inalienable rights , not “God”………
My parents are my Creators ; not some non-existent , all-powerful entity …….
June 6th, 2009 at 4:45 pmGingrich and his ilk know they cannot become political leaders unless it is under a theocratic or similarly absolute hierarchical form of government. They cannot ‘make’ it in a democracy, where people have the right to question and criticize and voice facts contrary to the will of the Leader. So they have to tout God and a theocratic system, which is precisely what this country was founded against–the divine right of kings–and for them to warp this history and have their distortions repeated and repeated and repeated by the media shows their absolute faith in Goebbels: the bigger the lie….
June 6th, 2009 at 4:49 pmMCMetal Says:
From the link :
Gingrich, now a consultant and author, said the ties to religion in American government date to the Declaration of Independence, when Thomas Jefferson wrote that men are endowed by God with certain inalienable rights.
Maybe Salamander Boy should have consulted Google ; Jefferson wrote that men are endowed by their “CREATOR” with certain inalienable rights , not “God”………
My parents are my Creators ; not some non-existent , all-powerful entity …….
Didn’t Jefferson edit his own Bible of anything miraculous or divine? And if the Founders really wanted everyone to be Christian, they would have said so in the Constitution. To their credit, they didn’t do that for a very good reason. It’s a terrible idea.
June 6th, 2009 at 4:50 pmOh come on Newt… Just turn that frown upside down….
June 6th, 2009 at 4:52 pmJust another Christian Fundamentlist Terrorist(CFT) confab to incite violence.
Newt are you asking for forgiveness when you called Sotomayer a racist?
June 6th, 2009 at 4:56 pmNewt,
Your Christian religion ADOPTED PAGANISM to help spread it’s complete corrupt story about thier Jebes.
Christmas is a reflection of the pagan ritualistic worship and fire and light and fear of the dark. Sometimes known as the Festival of Lights in other religions and in paganism.
Easter is the worship of bunnies, chicks, eggs, birth and rebirth like just like the goddess Oester.
The wiki states, “Old English ?ostre (also ?astre) and Old High German Ôstarâ are the names of a putative Germanic goddess whose Anglo-Saxon month, ?ostur-monath, has given its name to the Christian festival of Easter.”
Add to that the Communion which is a symbolic consumption of the flesh and blood of another person. Yuck!
The Christian religion is one of the most pagan religions in America.
June 6th, 2009 at 4:56 pmHa Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!
A corrupt, unethical, immoral liar is surrounded by pagans?!?
June 6th, 2009 at 4:57 pmI know a lot of pagans who are of far better character than he, the convenient christian.
Here I am trying to become a comedian, and Newt Gingrich keeps pushing me offstage. We expect Oliver North to be a clown, but shouldn’t he be volunteering for suicide missions (along with Gordon Liddy)? And isn’t Mike Huckabee (after seeing devils under his bed) under doctor’s orders to take a daily, heavy dose of Zanax?
How come Pagans never get a fair shake?
June 6th, 2009 at 4:57 pmWayne Ant Schneider Says:
——————————————————————————–
MCMetal Says:
From the link :
Gingrich, now a consultant and author, said the ties to religion in American government date to the Declaration of Independence, when Thomas Jefferson wrote that men are endowed by God with certain inalienable rights.
Maybe Salamander Boy should have consulted Google ; Jefferson wrote that men are endowed by their “CREATOR” with certain inalienable rights , not “God”………
My parents are my Creators ; not some non-existent , all-powerful entity …….
Didn’t Jefferson edit his own Bible of anything miraculous or divine? And if the Founders really wanted everyone to be Christian, they would have said so in the Constitution. To their credit, they didn’t do that for a very good reason. It’s a terrible idea.
June 6th, 2009 at 4:50 pm
Uhhh , actually the “better” reason is that most of them weren’t Christians ; they were Deists……….
June 6th, 2009 at 4:59 pmI bet 3/4 of the audience had to look up the word “paganism”.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:02 pmdixie, don’t get me started on religion and what it is based upon — I could go on for the afternoon — if anyone ever read Greek or Roman mythology, they could see it is undeniable that religon today is co-opted from those ancient tales.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:02 pmUhhh , actually the “better” reason is that most of them weren’t Christians ; they were Deists……….
Well, that, too. But they also knew that religion was too personal a thing to have government dictating which ones its citizens should practice. Our nation was the first one to say we wouldn’t have an official religion. The funny thing is, the only people I hear dispute this are Christians. I never hear Jews, or Muslims, or Buddhists or any other person of faith make the claim that their religion was the one upon which our nation was founded. Only Christians.
Time to quote the great H.L.Mencken.
“I have nothing against Christianity. It’s Christians I can’t stand.”
June 6th, 2009 at 5:06 pmGo, Newt. Pray to your puny God.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:06 pm…only in the United States does citizenship start with our creator
Setting aside how horrifically unconstitutional this is, there are lots of other countries where citizenship “starts with our creator,” including Iran.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:06 pmSo the slaughter, maiming, displacing and torturing of hundreds of thousands of Muslims is not an example of godlessness in our society?
But gay marriage definitely is?
Newt, your god is prick and you were created in his image.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:06 pmNewt says we are surrounded by Pagans. Hey wait a minute, I thought the Pagans were a motorcycle club. Boy! I guess were really in trouble now.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:07 pm*a big thumbs up to Wayne Ant Schneider*
June 6th, 2009 at 5:08 pmThe USA is a christian nation, you cannot deny this. Our constitution, laws, moral code and ethics are all based on the CHRISTIAN BIBLE. I’m guessing some of you were alseep in history class when the teacher was going over the Manifest Destiny?????? Our god given right??
June 6th, 2009 at 5:09 pmdixie blood Says:
——————————————————————————–
Newt,
Your Christian religion ADOPTED PAGANISM to help spread it’s complete corrupt story about thier Jebes.
Christmas is a reflection of the pagan ritualistic worship and fire and light and fear of the dark. Sometimes known as the Festival of Lights in other religions and in paganism.
Easter is the worship of bunnies, chicks, eggs, birth and rebirth like just like the goddess Oester.
The wiki states, “Old English ?ostre (also ?astre) and Old High German Ôstarâ are the names of a putative Germanic goddess whose Anglo-Saxon month, ?ostur-monath, has given its name to the Christian festival of Easter.”
Add to that the Communion which is a symbolic consumption of the flesh and blood of another person. Yuck!
The Christian religion is one of the most pagan religions in America.
Hehe and that’s not even the half of it. Christmas = Winter Solstice (close to it) Easter = Vernal Equinox. The Pagan or Wiccan god is what Christians turned into their version of Satan hence the belief of Satan worship. Yule Log = pagan. Easter eggs = pagan. I could go on :) Nice to see other people aren’t fooled either!
June 6th, 2009 at 5:09 pm“Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool.” – Mark Twain
June 6th, 2009 at 5:10 pmThe typical Right-wing-nutter attempt to rewrite history to their liking. The right seems to really embrace “magical thinking”, if you say something enough times it will be true.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:13 pmWay to go to get more folks into the big tent. Whats next on the agenda.. witch burning, scarlet letters??? The American Taliban is just getting started!
Oh jeeze Merdad has another sockpuppet… when will the sadness end?
June 6th, 2009 at 5:13 pmJimmy Big Bucks Says:
The USA is a christian nation, you cannot deny this. Our constitution, laws, moral code and ethics are all based on the CHRISTIAN BIBLE. I’m guessing some of you were alseep in history class when the teacher was going over the Manifest Destiny?????? Our god given right??
Point out the parts of the Constitution or Bill of Rights where Christianity is named or even mentioned.
Manifest Destiny was an excuse dreamed up by politicians to justify stealing most of the country from the rightful inhabitants. That was even a good try.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:15 pmExcuse me: “That wasn’t even a good try.”
June 6th, 2009 at 5:16 pmMarie Says:
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!
A corrupt, unethical, immoral liar is surrounded by pagans?!?
I know a lot of pagans who are of far better character than he, the convenient christian
It’s sad isn’t it? Didn’t he leave his wife for his assistant that he was messing around with or something? These people and their “ethics”.
I do have some Christian friends who are quite capable of have a civil political discussion, knowing I don’t believe in Christianity and they don’t hold it against me. It’s nice. We can calmly discuss an issue whether we agree or not but in the end we recognize that not agreeing is okay. I should have them come educate our trolls on disagreeing and still remaining civil.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:16 pmThe USA is a secular nation, you cannot deny this….
June 6th, 2009 at 5:19 pmCode of Hammurabi?
June 6th, 2009 at 5:20 pmAtheists, gays, Muslims, “libruls”, socialists, and now pagans. It sure sounds like the forces of the universe are agreed that it’s time to discard the Christ myth.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:21 pmOur constitution, laws, moral code and ethics are all based on the CHRISTIAN BIBLE.
And which “Christian Bible” would that be? The KJV, the NKJV, the NIV, or the TNIV. Or was it the Gideon’s Bible, the Seventh Day Adventist’s, the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints (whoops, can’t be that one since it wasn’t written at the time of our nation’s founding).
Pray, tell us, which version of Christianity was the basis for our nation’s founding? They are not all the same, so tell us which Christian religion we’re supposed to practice if we want to be “good Americans”.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:21 pmOh come on Wayne Ant Schneider, you can’t expect your plaything to be capable of that level of play…
June 6th, 2009 at 5:22 pmI’m not even a pagan. I’m an atheist.
Go to hell, Newt — or Armpit, Oklahoma. It’s the same place.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:23 pm*giggling* at Wayne Ant – poor trollies!! They haven’t got a chance! ;o)
Go get ‘em, Wayne!!
June 6th, 2009 at 5:24 pmThe problem is: Reichwhiners don’t bother reading the founding documents of our nation, the Buy-bull, or history in general. They also seem to have an aversion to dictionaries. Obviously Newt neither knows nor cares what “paganism” is.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:24 pmkdgamergirl Says:
It’s sad isn’t it? Didn’t he leave his wife for his assistant that he was messing around with or something?
Yes. While his first wife was in the recovery room after cancer surgery, Newt showed up with his yellow legal pad to discuss the terms of their divorce. He then married the staffer he was cheating with. Then, while Newt was busy denouncing Bill Clinton as immoral and leading the impeachment effort against him, he divorced his second wife so he could marry the new staffer with whom he was cheating.
For some reason, Newt thinks that people never think of this stuff when they see him spewing his lies.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:24 pmSo let me get this straight – they’re surrounded by panganism? The foundation of christianity is based on paganism easter bunnies, christmas trees and all!
June 6th, 2009 at 5:25 pmOh and jimmy you retard.. our laws are based on the Roman/Latin codices, not the bible, our country was first settled by european people fleeing religious persecution and they went on to burn witches and demand everyone who came here adhered to their beliefs, they became the very thing they were fleeing. As for the bible.. the one you read today was put together in Rome by the first Christian Emperor and his First Council of Nicaea, they picked all the books that they thought should make up the bible. Many, many scriptures and testaments were left out or not chosen. Dude, apparently you have been asleep at the wheel and longggggggggg time.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:29 pmHistorical Revisionism is one of Newt’s bold, new ideas that the media is always referring to.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:29 pmAs for the Huckster.
The Revolution wasn’t a “miracle from God’s hand”. It was the result of logistics and the fact that Britain’s King George predated ours in pissing off the rest of the World. The same reasons that the “insurgencies” in Iraq and Afghanistan will, ultimately, succeed.
Prop 8 wasn’t delivered by God’s hand either. It came from the Mormon’s pockets.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:30 pmSickening self-righteous sons of bytches with their hypocrisy. Gingrich is the absolute worst out of the bunch!
June 6th, 2009 at 5:32 pmJimmy Big Bucks Says:
The USA is partly a Christian nation, but it is not only a Christian nation, so I do deny it. Most of our laws are based on the ancient code of laws, not the Bible. However, many of the laws in the Bible are also based on the ancient code of laws.
As for our moral code and ethics being based on the Christian Bible, that is complete hogwash. Our moral code is the combination of moral codes from dozens of different religions, some Christian, some Islamic, some pagan and some eastern. You don’t get to summarize the “moral code and ethics” of America as being the exclusive property of the Christians, because it is decisively not.
Many of those that founded America did believe in God, and they put their religious language into many of our documents, but to infer that our constitution is based on Christianity is pure hubris. Our constitution goes to great lengths to avoid being based on any one religion.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:32 pmTruth be told, if there was a miracle in the Revolution, it was the French not god.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:33 pmThe Sta-Puf Marshmallow Man doesn’t look too happy in that pic.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:33 pmJimmy Big Bucks Says:
The USA is a christian nation, you cannot deny this. Our constitution, laws, moral code and ethics are all based on the CHRISTIAN BIBLE. I’m guessing some of you were alseep in history class when the teacher was going over the Manifest Destiny?????? Our god given right??
What freaking history class did you take?
One, our laws and constitution is not based off of biblical law.
Manifest destiny was never in the constitution or any other document. The term, Manifest Destiny, first appeared in print in 1839, not in 1776, was again used in 1845 by a New York journalist named John L. O’Sullivan when he pushed for the annexation of Texas.
Looks like you need to go back to the history books yourself, fool.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:36 pmI have no problem with people believing whatever they wish. But when someone – particularly a politician tries to shove their religion down my throat I can’t stand it. These guys with their holier than thou egos don’t understand what freedom of religion is all about.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:37 pmOMG! Not Pagans! WTF? Is there anything these guys AREN’T afraid of?
June 6th, 2009 at 5:38 pmPlease don’t forget those who professed no Faith, Levi the Dungbeetle. There were also naturalists, deists, and atheists. And I can’t think of a one who wasn’t a strict secularist.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:39 pmGrab the shotgun and circle the wagons, Cletus! There’s pagans everywhere! Hide yer wives!
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Jimmy Big Bucks Says:
The USA is a christian nation, you cannot deny this. Our constitution, laws, moral code and ethics are all based on the CHRISTIAN BIBLE.
No, they’re not. They’re really not. That’s a blatantly transparent fiction
They’re based on englightment philosophy. In fact, the Declaration of Independence even cribs some of its key phrases from Locke. At the time the Christian position was to be ruled under a king via “divine right.” If our Constitution was based on the Bible, we would have established a monarchy. Also, see the First Amendment.
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Jimmy Big Bucks Says:
I’m guessing some of you were alseep in history class when the teacher was going over the Manifest Destiny?????? Our god given right??
You mean the flimsy philosophical excuse we invented to justify the slaughter of millions of Native Americans? No, I know that history quite well.
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kdgamergirl Says:
I do have some Christian friends who are quite capable of have a civil political discussion…
I know lots of Christians who are more politically liberal than I am. The right wing does not have a copyright on Christianity.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:40 pmP.D. Says: Hey, I ‘ve had some dust ups with the Pagans MC, and there some bad dudes. If Newt crosses them, he’d better be scared. Hahahahahaha!
June 6th, 2009 at 5:41 pmManifest Destiny is a clever marketing term for genocide and displacement of brown people.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:42 pmAs far as I can tell, they’re not afraid of pasty white christians who are wealthy. Other than that, they’re afraid of everyone and everything. They’re the cowards of our nation. Pathetic actually…
June 6th, 2009 at 5:43 pm“only in the United States does citizenship start with our creator. [...]”
An utterly ignorant statement from a man who claims to be a historian. Great Britain and many other countries, to this day, have state-sponsored churches. The Queen of England is “defender of the faith”. The United States rejected that concept in its constitution.
The very idea of a church that depends on the power of the state for protection is a violation of christian teaching. Read Matthew Chapters 5-7. The church was illegal and often persecuted by Rome during its first 300 years. The idea of a state-sponsored church is itself a “pagan” idea. ( I use the term pagan in a non-pejorative sense to mean neither Jewish or Christian.) You can see this blending of “pagan” and Christian develop on Imperial Roman coins from Constantine forward.
Historically and theologically, Gingrich and Huckabee don’t know what they are talking about.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:45 pmangels81 Says:
P.D. Says: Hey, I ‘ve had some dust ups with the Pagans MC, and there some bad dudes. If Newt crosses them, he’d better be scared. Hahahahahaha!
You know, if the church he was speaking in was literally surrounded by the Pagans MC, I might have some sympathy for him. Right up until he ate an axe handle.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:46 pmIs it me, or are these guy’s freaking out because Barack is half black? After the election, I thought the wingers would get a little nuts, but these guy’s are going truly insane. Limpballs, Tancredo, Bucanhan… They seem to get shriller and shriller by the day.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:46 pmWayne Ant,
He also stipped out part of the 4 gospels…
From the wiki…
“The Jefferson Bible, or The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth as it is formally titled, was Thomas Jefferson’s effort to extract the doctrine of Jesus by removing sections of the New Testament containing supernatural aspects as well as perceived misinterpretations he believed had been added by the Four Evangelists.[1][2]“
June 6th, 2009 at 5:47 pmWhere is God’s Hand when we torture?
Holding the detainee down?
Damn.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:48 pm“and that starts with P and that rhymes with T and that stands for pool” — from The Music Man
I think the Professor is scheming to sell us a set of brass band instruments.
Thanks but no thanks, Little Newtie!
June 6th, 2009 at 5:48 pmIs Gingrich confusing atheism with paganism? He’s stupid enough to do that.
For Gingrich to cite the continuing availability of abortion is pandering. They can pretend – but abortions aren’t going to halt. Recorded history shows that abortion has been with us since at least 1500 BC, and and it is a virtual certainty that it has been around since the dawn of man.
It will be with us until mankind is gone.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:50 pm*
I am not a citizen of the world. I am a citizen of the United States because only in the United States does citizenship start with our creator. – Gingrich
The above is complete gibberish. I would love to hear him try and establish the logical syllogism leading to this conclusion.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:50 pmdixie blood Says:
“The Jefferson Bible, or The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth as it is formally titled, was Thomas Jefferson’s effort to extract the doctrine of Jesus by removing sections of the New Testament containing supernatural aspects as well as perceived misinterpretations he believed had been added by the Four Evangelists.[1][2]“
I would do it the other way around. I might be able to respect the theological position of someone claiming to be Christian if the four Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) were their only primary text, with the rest of the NT being treated as secondary commentary, and the OT as tertiary background. That way, all the rantings from Paul as well as insanity like Revelations could be taken with a grain of salt – these guys are early church fathers, their opinions are important but not necessarily canonical. And the OT can be treated as instructive mythological background to provide context for what Jesus was saying.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:50 pmWhat ever happen to the Pagans? Being surrounded by bikers could be a bit unnerving. I was more familiar with the Warlocks.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:51 pmDoes the moronic troll actually think “manifest destiny” is in the Constitution? Or that it was written by “god?”
I weep for the American education system…
June 6th, 2009 at 5:51 pmTrittydi@74, You are right of course. But Newt and fellow Repugs used the Religious Right to win in 1994 during their ‘Contract with America’ bullsh*t.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:53 pmI SOOOOO hope that the Newtster runs for president in 2012.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:53 pmThe christmas tree, poinsettia, holly, candles — are just a few of the pagan symbols that have been incorporated into modern christmas celebrations. The Easter egg has pagan origins. There are many, many more such adopted symbols that the church took from pagan ceremonies and traditions.
Does Newt plan to do away with all of those too?
June 6th, 2009 at 5:55 pm*
ElBruce Says: Actually I like the book of Lamb (Christopher Moore) The Gospel According to Biff, Christs Childhood Pal. Makes more sense then anything else I have read.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:55 pmWayne Ant Schneider Says:
Didn’t Jefferson edit his own Bible of anything miraculous or divine?
– - Actually, I think the Scientologists beat Jefferson to the punch.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:58 pmdbadass, Pagans are still around. There up in Conn. NY area.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:58 pmFine with me.
Now, only 2 of the above reported a virgin birth. That’s a big deal. Why did 2 get it wrong (left out a big part of the story) or were 2 lying?
June 6th, 2009 at 5:58 pmP.D. Says:
Is it me, or are these guy’s freaking out because Barack is half black? After the election, I thought the wingers would get a little nuts, but these guy’s are going truly insane. Limpballs, Tancredo, Bucanhan… They seem to get shriller and shriller by the day.
__________________________________________________________
Indeed. They do get more shrill each day. But, I think they would be in the same state no matter who was in the White House. It’s just the flavor might be different. Heck! They’ve been ratcheting up the shrill extremism and xenophobia since before Barak Obama was born.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:59 pmPete Says: They really are a perfect example of what happens when you cut the air off from the brain.
June 6th, 2009 at 6:02 pmPete Says:
June 6th, 2009 at 6:02 pmI didn’t mean to leave them out. I myself am a Druid, and there isn’t anything much more pagan than the religion Christians destroyed through violence to create the nightmare of modern Christianity.
Look, you have to admit Newt has a point. Not about the paganism but about the decline of christianity in this great nation. Churches are becoming empty, we are losing all morals, praying isn’t allowed in school ( unless you’re a muslim ), they want to take god out of the pledge, abortion is perfectly legal, and gays are being given more rights each day. It is truly sad to see this nation lose what it was made for.
June 6th, 2009 at 6:03 pmWhat bullshit.
“God? … who the hell is He? … Why confuse the issue by dragging in a superfluous entity? Beyond atheism, nontheism.”
June 6th, 2009 at 6:04 pm~Edward Abbey
It behooves me to correct you on this. The 1st permanent settlement (in 1565), St. Augustine, Florida, was Catholic. Pedro Menendez, the founder, was charged to spread Catholicism to the natives and to rid the lands of the infidels, the protestant French Huguenots who had come here fleeing the religious intolerance in France.
The 1st English settlement was Jamestown in 1607 with the Plymouth Colony following in 1620. My home state, Maryland, founded in 1634 became the 1st English colony to grant religious toleration to Catholics.
June 6th, 2009 at 6:04 pmManifest Destiny was an ego driven concept developed by men in the United States in the 1800’s. It most certainly didn’t come from God. I don’t actually think that Newt is an idiot, but his ego and ambition more often than not make him act like one.
June 6th, 2009 at 6:06 pmJimmy Big Bucks Says:
Look, you have to admit Newt has a point. Not about the paganism but about the decline of christianity in this great nation. Churches are becoming empty, we are losing all morals…
… Christianity is being used by fatcat politicians and preachers to justify mass exploitation, bigotry, and war, to turn ourselves against one another and to sow hatred and fear across the land…
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Jimmy Big Bucks Says:
praying isn’t allowed in school ( unless you’re a muslim )
Citation, please?
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Jimmy Big Bucks Says:
they want to take god out of the pledge
Reference to God was added to the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954.
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Jimmy Big Bucks Says:
abortion is perfectly legal
Yes, it is. Making things illegal is not always the best way to deal with them. Why is it your only option here?
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Jimmy Big Bucks Says:
gays are being given more rights each day.
Yay! Someday they’ll have as many legal rights as the rest of us.
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Jimmy Big Bucks Says:
It is truly sad to see this nation lose what it was made for.
Heterosexual white Christian males? I’m not crying over it.
June 6th, 2009 at 6:08 pmJimmy big, What was this country made for? It wasn’t made for just you good christians. One of the big reasons this country has been going down hill, is folks like you who want everyone to conform to your god. Newt is a idiot, and doesn’t have a clue what this country was founded on.
June 6th, 2009 at 6:10 pmGeorge W. Bush said that God speaks through him (and leaders of the Christian faith never criticized Bush for saying those words). Maybe that’s why I don’t believe in Christianity any more.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/13/AR2005101301688.html
June 6th, 2009 at 6:10 pmJimmy@89, I was waiting for somebody to bring up ‘teh gays’ What the Hell does being gay have to do with anything? Quite frankly, I would rather hang out with gays and lebians than blow-hards like Newt and Limpballs any day of the week.
June 6th, 2009 at 6:12 pmPachydiplax de St. Augustine Says:
The 1st English settlement was Jamestown in 1607 with the Plymouth Colony following in 1620. My home state, Maryland, founded in 1634 became the 1st English colony to grant religious toleration to Catholics.
When most Americans refer to pre-founding settlers, they’re thinking of the pilgrims who left England to avoid persecution. One of the first things they made a point of was practicing religious tolerance to other faiths in their colonies. It is this tradition and attitude of religious tolerance that has been picked up by the United States upon its founding.
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Blog Logic Says:
Manifest Destiny was an ego driven concept developed by men in the United States in the 1800’s. It most certainly didn’t come from God.
Quite correct. Link:
This term has no theological background whatsoever prior to its use. It certainly can’t be traced back to any implication in scripture… at least not Christian scripture…
June 6th, 2009 at 6:14 pmOf course, to a student of American history, it’s quite clear that our rise was largely do to the absence of religion in public policy. The disasters of the last 40 years, especially the last 8 or so, have coincided with the rise of politically active religious zealots who have been used, and pandered to, by the leaders of the GOP.
In fact. No sane person could deny that we were on a much better course when the Religious Right kept their religion out of our politics. What made us such a success was our devotion to Worldly matters and a proper relegation of religion to private and family life.
Theocracy is the greatest evil that can befall any society. It ends in bloody carnage in virtually every case. Only a profound idiot would suggest we sacrifice that which made us great, our secularism, in exchange for the horrors of religious rule.
June 6th, 2009 at 6:16 pmJimmy Big Bucks Says:
Look, you have to admit Newt has a point. Not about the paganism but about the decline of christianity in this great nation. Churches are becoming empty, we are losing all morals, praying isn’t allowed in school ( unless you’re a muslim ), they want to take god out of the pledge, abortion is perfectly legal, and gays are being given more rights each day. It is truly sad to see this nation lose what it was made for.
Everything you said is wrong and ignorant.
big bucks doesn’t equate to brains, does it?
June 6th, 2009 at 6:17 pmIf only…alas, though, we’re still surrounded by fundamentalist Christian ignoramuses and the demagogues who use them to gain power, like Newt Gingrich…
June 6th, 2009 at 6:19 pmJimmy Big Bucks Says:
We are all losing our morals? I am not losing my morals so please do not speak for all Americans. Christians might be losing their morality, the Christian faith is certainly losing its following, but that has nothing to do with the decay or morality in America.
The fact that prayer is not allowed in schools has nothing to do with the decay of morality in America. Taking the word God out of the pledge of allegiance has nothing to do with the decay of morality in America. The legality of abortion and the rights of homosexual have nothing to do with the decay of morality in America.
The decay in morality is because of the use of propaganda to convince fascist wingnut Republicans that torture is acceptable behavior. You Christians that support the Republican Party aren’t very Christ like at all, in fact, you are doing exactly what Christ would not want you to do.
You say you are sad to see this nation lose what is was made for? You think America was made for Christians? America wasn’t “made” for any one particular religious group, it was made for ALL religious groups. Your prejudice prevents you from seeing what is obvious to everyone else.
By the way, we are still waiting for you to provide any evidence for any of your claims.
June 6th, 2009 at 6:19 pmElBruce, forget about Jimmy Big Bucks. He is just a shill as well as someone who has no clue about the founding of this country or scripture. As Game of Life aptly puts it:
Everything you [Big Bucks] said is wrong and ignorant.
big bucks doesn’t equate to brains, does it?
June 6th, 2009 at 6:20 pmDidn’t Newt or Dewt or whatever his name is, just change religions? So he has no firm beliefs and just changes religions when he feels to mood? He should probably wait a while until he starts evaluating other peoples beliefs.
June 6th, 2009 at 6:21 pmWHEN will these folks realize that Newt and Huckleberry are NOT RELEVANT??? They are such small, non-important folks except to themselves and a band of gospel-thumping lets-pile-on worm meat….
Please…stop reporting this swill..
June 6th, 2009 at 6:22 pmPachydiplax de St. Augustine Says:
Talking from a fleeing, grabbing, greedy white men point of view.
YEAH right.
June 6th, 2009 at 6:23 pmpete Says:
Theocracy is the greatest evil that can befall any society. It ends in bloody carnage in virtually every case. Only a profound idiot would suggest we sacrifice that which made us great, our secularism, in exchange for the horrors of religious rule.
Excellent post, pete. To the “we were founded as a religious government” claim, it’s worth pointing out that the United States of America was the first established sovereign government in the history of the world which did not have a state religion. That’s a pretty significant historical fact there, and one which precisely debunks their claim.
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Wiz Says:
Didn’t Newt or Dewt or whatever his name is, just change religions?
Let’s see, today is a Saturday, and he usually does that every other Thursday, so yeah, probably.
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Winski Says:
Please…stop reporting this swill..
Go ask John Kerry about not responding to scurillious, stupid attacks.
June 6th, 2009 at 6:24 pmPachydiplax de St. Augustine Says:
You cite the instances of the French Huguenots fleeing religious intolerance in France and Maryland’s granting of tolerance to the Catholics to disprove Lunaluz’s claim our country was first settled by European people fleeing religious persecution?
You’re either making a good argument for his case or you’re more than a tad bit loopy.
June 6th, 2009 at 6:24 pmWhat was this nation made for?
June 6th, 2009 at 6:25 pmIn my book Christians have a lot to answer for when it comes to the human condition. Throughout history Christians have mass murdered, destroyed and persecuted more humans then Hitler and Stalin combined. The blood on Christians hands run thick and deep. The human race would be much better off without this immoral belief system.
June 6th, 2009 at 6:25 pmWhen the greedy old racists lose power, they will say anything to try to hold on. They are pathetic has beens. Get over it, Newter, you are done and have been for ten years.
June 6th, 2009 at 6:26 pmHuckabee appears to be in the business of telling everyone what God thinks or intends when he touts right-wing’s success in the Proposition 8 fight in California as being miracles “from God’s hand”. He has taken the name of the Lord in vain. As a preacher he should know better. It is not for man to speak for God.
June 6th, 2009 at 6:28 pmOn a certain level it would have been really funny if Darryl’s whackjob god had been right about Huckabee….
June 6th, 2009 at 6:30 pmangels81 Says:
In my book Christians have a lot to answer for…
When you look at any belief system the world has ever produced, the body count numbers in the millions – Christianity, Capitalism, Islam, Communism, Judaism, Fascism, Hinduism – any of them have been used from time to time as justifications for the mass crimes that people were going to commit anyway. Get rid of any or all of the belief systems and people will just create new ones to reverse-engineer excuses for mass murder. So I don’t think it’s the belief systems that are a causal factor here.
June 6th, 2009 at 6:31 pmangel81@109, Be careful. You will incite the trolls. Of course the Christian faith has a lot of blood on it’s hands. But to the Religious Right, that’s okey dokey with them. They truly believe they are the chosen ones. The rest of us non-believers and any other faiths, to them, are doomed. I, myself, thought Jesus loved everyone. Guess not.
June 6th, 2009 at 6:31 pmP.D. Says:
Jimmy@89, I was waiting for somebody to bring up ‘teh gays’ What the Hell does being gay have to do with anything? Quite frankly, I would rather hang out with gays and lebians than blow-hards like Newt and Limpballs any day of the week.
Not me!
I would hang with ANY decent person or animal as long as it weren’t a teabagging repug.
June 6th, 2009 at 6:32 pmSpeaking of John Kerry (the fake one) I sort of miss him. Tonight I shall be serving grilled bison tenderloin with a Bernaise sauce and a salad of baby spinich with goat cheese, pecans, and fresh raspberries. I wonder if john Kerry will make a bold appearance…
June 6th, 2009 at 6:33 pmdbadass Says:
I wonder if john Kerry will make a bold appearance…
To boldly spew what no one had spewed before…
June 6th, 2009 at 6:35 pmIt’s pretty clear that jimmy big bucks ain’t got no game, and doesn’t want to really come to the net.
But here’s something for him to chew on next time he’s inclicned to trot out the falsehood, “Our constitution, laws, moral code and ethics are all based on the CHRISTIAN BIBLE”
This might not be fair, since jimmy made no attempt to actually support his argument, and several of you guys have already noted that neither jesus nor Christ appear anywhere in our founding documents, but let’s consider the closest thing to a set of laws the Bible offers: the Ten Commandments.
ONE: ‘You shall have no other gods before Me.’
The Bill of Rights specifically denies this one when it says Congress shall make no laws establishing a state religion. Not a good start.
TWO: ‘You shall not make for yourself a carved image–any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.’
See point about Bill of Rights, above. Oh for two.
THREE: ‘You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.’
Also Bill of Rights. Freedom of Speech and all that. Oh for three. Not looking good.
FOUR: ‘Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.’
Now, there used to be Blue Laws forbidding commerce on Sundays all across the nation. Today you can still run into them in certain rural areas. Give a half a point.
FIVE: ‘Honor your father and your mother.’
Nice thought, but hardly enshrined in law. Another strike.
SIX: ‘You shall not murder.’
AT LAST! This one IS in our laws. Of course, it’s also part of the laws of pretty much every civilized nation, Muslim, Christian, Hindu or “Pagan”. Still, we’ll give this one to jimmy.
SEVEN: ‘You shall not commit adultery.’
Let’s ask Newtie if this one is part of our legal code, hm? I understand he has some expertise in this area. Short answer: no, this one is not against the law, either.
EIGHT: ‘You shall not steal.
This one parallels number six — it is against the law, but it’s also against the law in every civilized nation. Still, it counts. Two-and-a-half. Out of eight.
NINE: ‘You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.’
Sounds like perjury to me. Perjury is more specific, of course — one must be under oath, for instance — and simply telling a lie outside of the specific circumstances of perjury or fraud is not against the law. But let’s be generous and give it to him. Three and a half.
TEN: ‘You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.’
Another swing and a miss! This one would erase our entire capitalist consumer economy, since it’s all built on coveting what thy neighbor has, and going out and buying it. “Keeping up with the Joneses” I think they call it now.
So there we have it. Ten basic ground rules for Judeo-Christian ethics.
Three and a half of them are enshrined in our laws, and three others are explicitly rejected by our Bill of Rights.
Seems like if the Founders wanted to base our system of laws on the Bible they would have gotten a little closer than they did. But that’s just one guy’s opinion.
June 6th, 2009 at 6:35 pmThanks, ElBruce. However, I must offer a small correction. We were the first modern Western country without a state religion.There are many examples of secular government from the ancient and Eastern world including parts of Ancient Grecian history and Ancient China.
June 6th, 2009 at 6:36 pmForgive my long post. I should have broken it up into a series of ten comments.
June 6th, 2009 at 6:40 pmElBruce Says:
…So I don’t think it’s the belief systems that are a causal factor here.
Agreed. Extremism, founded in religious education (teaching people to Believe things rather than learn things), is a problem that transcends creed. And much of the religious violence is actually driven by racism, nationalism, desperation, and flat out greed.
June 6th, 2009 at 6:41 pmNo apologies need, ralph. They come as a set so, they should be dealt with as a set.
June 6th, 2009 at 6:43 pmWho care if people of the same sex want to live in bliss? Who is it hurting? Really who would give a sh1t?
It seems to me repugs won’t live and let live.
How happy am I that these last few fools are the last of the shame these old white racist men brought upon themselves?
VEEEEERRRRRRY!!!!!
This is what the founders of the Constitution were talkin ’bout.
June 6th, 2009 at 6:44 pmI have a thing about ralph’s ox but please don’t tell ralph…
June 6th, 2009 at 6:45 pmDamned right Newt. And you and your religinutzoids take note.
June 6th, 2009 at 6:45 pmThe separation of church and state is something we patriotic pagan buddhists take damned seriously.
You coveting my ox, dbadass?
You coveting my ox???
Well, all I can say is it’s a damn good thing there ain’t no law agin’ it.
June 6th, 2009 at 6:46 pmCoulda sworn I read somewhere that most of the founding Fathers were Deists, not Xians.
June 6th, 2009 at 6:47 pmJimmy Big Bucks Says:
——————————————————————————–
Look, you have to admit Newt has a point. Not about the paganism but about the decline of christianity in this great nation. Churches are becoming empty, we are losing all morals, praying isn’t allowed in school ( unless you’re a muslim ), they want to take god out of the pledge, abortion is perfectly legal, and gays are being given more rights each day. It is truly sad to see this nation lose what it was made for.
The Original Pledge the way it was written – “I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”
Praying is allowed in school. Muslim or not.
Less than 3% of people attended church in 1776.
In God We Trust wasn’t on our money until 1957.
A little history
http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html
Lets get back to the way our country was founded, before Christians started ruining it.
June 6th, 2009 at 6:49 pm“Gingrich argued that, while Christianity is the foundation of American citizenship”
i don’t recall jeebus being mentioned in either the bill of rights or the constitution.
June 6th, 2009 at 6:50 pmNewt lives in Wingnuttiastan.
June 6th, 2009 at 6:51 pmI knew me and that ox should have kept it a little more on the dl…
June 6th, 2009 at 6:51 pmWere we too hard on poor jimmy big bucks?
Did he go back to console himself with a dive into his pool filled with gold coins?
June 6th, 2009 at 6:53 pmIt’s pretty clear that jimmy big bucks ain’t got no game, and doesn’t want to really come to the net.
But here’s something for him to chew on next time he’s inclicned to trot out the falsehood, “Our constitution, laws, moral code and ethics are all based on the CHRISTIAN BIBLE”
This might not be fair, since jimmy made no attempt to actually support his argument, and several of you guys have already noted that neither jesus nor Christ appear anywhere in our founding documents, but let’s consider the closest thing to a set of laws the Bible offers: the Ten Commandments… — Ralph The Wonder Locust
*********************************************************
*Applauds* — awesome post, RTWL. At least in my opinion, there was no need to apologize for its length since you debated your point with not only faultless logic, but wit and verve as well. I’ve used the same argument that you have on other message threads pertaining to the same topic, but I don’t think I’ve ever done it quite so cleverly as you just did.
June 6th, 2009 at 6:53 pmSo there we have it. Ten basic ground rules for Judeo-Christian ethics.
Three and a half of them are enshrined in our laws, and three others are explicitly rejected by our Bill of Rights.
Seems like if the Founders wanted to base our system of laws on the Bible they would have gotten a little closer than they did. But that’s just one guy’s opinion.
June 6th, 2009 at 6:35 pm
Excellent summary!
June 6th, 2009 at 6:55 pmJimmy Big Bucks Says:
Rights are not something that can be bartered, traded, granted or relinquished: they are inherent and unalienable. Perhaps the more accurate observation would be “the rights of gays are being more and more recognized each day.”
June 6th, 2009 at 6:55 pmI sure as hell don’t believe Newt believes. Except in suckering people into making him President.
June 6th, 2009 at 6:55 pmwhat is it about freedom of religion as guaranteed in the first amendment don’t these assclowns understand? i do believe it covers paganism in addition to the freedom not to believe in religion.
June 6th, 2009 at 6:55 pmanti american tools.
Don’t any of you get that our founding documents state that our basic rights (life, liberty, pursuit of happiness) are stipulated as coming from our creator.
Doesn’t matter if you believe or not, or what you call your creator, this is where our founders agreed our basic rights emanate from.
And there you go again with your demonizing. Gingrich does NOT say you must believe in God or be Christian in order to have these basic rights as American citizens.
Our founders framed things this way for the benefit of all – a right that a government gives you can be taken away by same government. A basic right as a result of your birth, no one can/should touch.
June 6th, 2009 at 7:00 pmThe battle lines are being drawn. It’s the evangelical christians (about 20% of the country) against everyone else.
The evangelical christians are led by the ill-educated hockey-mom milf (Sarah), the overweight drug-addicted college dropout (Rush), and the serial adulterer (Newt). Add to the mix the televangelists and elected officials busted for gay sex in public places and you round out the picture of those who lead the “moral majority” in this country.
June 6th, 2009 at 7:01 pmYou know what? Let Newt run as Pres. in 2012. He can pick Sarah Palin as his V.P.. Then watch the Independants run away in droves.. LOL! I can dream, can I?
June 6th, 2009 at 7:01 pmRomartin16985
June 6th, 2009 at 7:01 pmDon’t you get it that there are like a zillion creation mythologies….
Romartin16985 Says:
“Doesn’t matter if you believe or not, or what you call your creator, this is where our founders agreed our basic rights emanate from”
does your statement include allah?
June 6th, 2009 at 7:05 pmA basic right as a result of your birth
June 6th, 2009 at 7:05 pm—
Birth is a biological process. It has nothing to do with rights and there isn’t anybody handing out rights as you emerge from the birth canal…
Perhaps it’s all the religious extremism being shown by people who call themsleves Christians that is putting people off. Also, our “leaders” who call themselves good Christians are a blood-thirsty and intolerant lot.
And then you have the fact that people who call themselves “Christians” think they can tell women what they can do with their bodies and gays who they can love and what rights they can have. That’s another thing that probably has something else to do with less people identifying themselves as “Christian”.
I am an agnostic (I say that because I have been known to say “if there is a god, help me out here”) and it serves me well. I attend a Unitarian Church and the acceptance and love I get there are more than enough for me. Our minister is a gay woman and the church is staunchly anti-war.
June 6th, 2009 at 7:06 pmRalphie – kudos on your analysis of the Big Ten!!
~A
June 6th, 2009 at 7:06 pmdbadass -
Disagree with Gingrich on his viewpoints about gay marriage, abortion, religion in schools if you want, fine (I personally believe it would benefit all to have instruction of the worlds major religions as religion is intertwined with politics, history, etc), but what he’s saying about our founding is absolutely true.
June 6th, 2009 at 7:07 pmWhy are churches becoming empty in our nation? Because church has become a place for division and not unity. The End.
June 6th, 2009 at 7:08 pmAnd throw Mike Huckabee somewhere in the mix and we’ll have a Democratic majority for the rest of eternity!
June 6th, 2009 at 7:09 pmdbadass Says:
Romartin16985
Don’t you get it that there are like a zillion creation mythologies….
And they all have similar “Christ” (savior) mythologies as well: the virgin birth, winter solstice, etc.
June 6th, 2009 at 7:09 pmperhaps newtie should run on that theme:
“vote for me and i will make religious services mandatory (just like the taliban)”
June 6th, 2009 at 7:09 pmpursuit of happiness) are stipulated as coming from our creator.
—-
June 6th, 2009 at 7:09 pmIf so and if happiness is marrying the person you might love regardless of gender, why does some people’s creator get its panties all bunched up?
Seems like if the Founders wanted to base our system of laws on the Bible they would have gotten a little closer than they did. But that’s just one guy’s opinion.
They used to swear on the Bible.
June 6th, 2009 at 7:11 pmRomartin16985
June 6th, 2009 at 7:13 pmYou mean that weird shit about Pagans being behind every tree?
Newt is right? Okay, Roman, please tell us of your latest Pagan moment since Newt said paganism is surrounding us. Also, the reason why I am here today is not because of your gawd, but because my mother and father had intercourse. The End. Gawd had nothing to do with my creation and because I was born within the imaginary boundaries of the United States, I was born to certain rights created by the Forefathers of our country and not by gawd! Get it moron?
June 6th, 2009 at 7:13 pmRomartin16985 Says:
You are wrong Romartin. Citizenship in the United States does not begin with our creator, because WE do not have a creator. You might believe you do, but Gingrich is wrong to speak for all Americans, and so are you. All Americans do NOT believe we have a creator, therefore citizenship in the United States does not begin with our creator.
Nothing worse than living in a nation that pretends to practice freedom of religion, except forces us to tolerate having Christian dogma forced down our throats at every turn.
Do not elect Christians!
June 6th, 2009 at 7:15 pmNewt is being utterly moronic. As a gay American, it deeply offends me when my desire to wed a consenting, law-abiding individual is denied by the government. Societal prohibitions never solve an issue, and I’m sure the oh-so “moral” Newt (who, incidentally, has some knowledge where infidelity is concerned) knows that.
Huckabee, as per usual, is being moronic and sermonizing. They claim divine intervention when something goes their way, but they ignore the events that favor others. We are not the only nation with rights that are supposedly derived from a creator (which is left undefined, and it’s not of the Judeo-Christian variety), and, since he was at a Christian event, I’m certain that he was referencing the Christian deity.
I don’t know. I tend to favor Zeus myself…
June 6th, 2009 at 7:15 pmWayne Ant Schneider Says:
Yes. While his first wife was in the recovery room after cancer surgery, Newt showed up with his yellow legal pad to discuss the terms of their divorce. He then married the staffer he was cheating with. Then, while Newt was busy denouncing Bill Clinton as immoral and leading the impeachment effort against him, he divorced his second wife so he could marry the new staffer with whom he was cheating.
But…but… he recently became a Catholic (how this was arranged I have no idea) so supposedly all his past sins have somehow disappeared.
June 6th, 2009 at 7:18 pmNewt is the most ambitious creature in politics, Bilbo. I’m sure he would do anything to court the Religious Right.
June 6th, 2009 at 7:20 pmP.D. Says:
Is it me, or are these guy’s freaking out because Barack is half black? After the election, I thought the wingers would get a little nuts, but these guy’s are going truly insane. Limpballs, Tancredo, Bucanhan… They seem to get shriller and shriller by the day.
June 6th, 2009 at 5:46 pm
Personally, I feel that I have been operating in ’stress mode’ since 2000. It’s gotten worse and worse over these last eight years, and after the 2008 election I really hoped that our long national nightmare was finally over and I could finally take a deep breath and relax a little. Instead the attacks have revved up, hatred and anger and stupidity become the norm, and every day it’s a new rightwing game of “Can You Top This?” or “Conservatives Say the Darndest Things!” where the vilest comment wins.
It’s gotten to the point where I’m considering ignoring it all and just watching baseball for the summer. Even though I’m a Mets fan, it would still be better for my mental health.
June 6th, 2009 at 7:23 pmChances are very good that ole Newty paid a very large check to the Catholic church to buy his way in. This is how religion is done today. Our Forefathers would be so proud!
June 6th, 2009 at 7:24 pmBack when I was reading SciFi, I read a book about a planet that conducted an experiment. They seeded two planets with life forms like themselves (humans) and with one planet they made it known to the inhabitants that they were put there by the people from the mother planet. The other planet (Earth) they did not let them know of their origins. It was a very interesting book comparing a society that made their creators into a mythical being (God) and a society that knew where they came from. Of course the society with the “creator” had way more problems than the other society (wars, prejudice, land grabs, etc) and in the end when Earth was told the truth about how they came to be, chaos reined supreme.
Just imagine what would happen to earth if aliens visited us and told us that we were placed on this planet as a science experiment by the aliens. What would all those “Christians” do?
June 6th, 2009 at 7:24 pmRomartin16985 Says:
Don’t any of you get that our founding documents state that our basic rights (life, liberty, pursuit of happiness) are stipulated as coming from our creator.
Doesn’t matter if you believe or not, or what you call your creator, this is where our founders agreed our basic rights emanate from.
Hmm… fair enough. Of course, there was no theory of evolution at the time. To the greatest degree anyone could then, they were trying to stay religion-neutral.
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Game of Life Says:
They used to swear on the Bible.
Sure. People still do. But whether or not any given founder was personally Christian is irrelevant to the law they established – swearing on a bible specifically wasn’t a legal requirement. In fact, if they were Christian, then they definitely were practicing separation of church and state, and therefore so should we.
June 6th, 2009 at 7:25 pmGINGRICH: I am not a citizen of the world. I am a citizen of the United States
No Newt, you are a citizen of the world although you’d like to think the world revolves around the USA, but nice, yet phony patriotic sentiment there you irrelevant a$$clown!
GINGRICH: Because only in the United States does citizenship start with our creator.
Wow Newt, more of that holier than thou phony patriotism. Is it citizenship or life that starts with our creator I am confused here?
GINGRICH: I think this is one of the most critical moments in American history.
You’ve got that right Newt. After the past 8 years of Bush and too many years of a republican majority which has led to two wars, an economic crisis, a home mortgage crisis, a financial crisis, rising unemployment, a broken health care system, a horse shit education system, deteriorating infrastructure, election fraud, etc, etc…one could say that we are in one of the most critical moments in American history.
GINGRICH: We are living in a period where we are surrounded by paganism.
Oh those dirty pagans! Actually Newt we are surrounded by religious zealots who moan and groan when the rest of the country doesn’t do as they say, not as they do. More fear from a republican, I am so shocked. Earth to Newt, did you know that Christmas, and Easter are taken from pagan rituals, sure they have been watered down and commercialized but they are what they are. I just wonder if any pagans cheated on their wives and divorced them while they were dying from cancer?
June 6th, 2009 at 7:26 pmMany of our founding Fathers did directly address religion, and it’s place in government, in ancillary documents and other writings. They used terms like “evil”, “tyranny”, “enslavement”, and “curse”.
June 6th, 2009 at 7:26 pmBilbo, not sure why but your story at #162 reminded me of the recent story of how two gay penguins hatched an egg and are raising the chick as it’s own as if they were the biological parent of it:
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2463080/Two-gay-Humboldt-bird-shave-hatched-an-egg-and-are-raising-the-chick-together.html
June 6th, 2009 at 7:28 pmThis kind of tripe needs to be on the MSM and Newt should have to defend himself. The other two are nonentities by now so they don’t count. The one never saw a gift that he thought he should return and the other is a serial liar (or to be more charitable, hallucinator).
I do not understand why the press thinks these people are credible and worthy of interest. There needs to be some chlorine dropped in the press pool in order to clean it up.
June 6th, 2009 at 7:30 pmRomartin16985 Says:
Don’t any of you get that our founding documents state that our basic rights (life, liberty, pursuit of happiness) are stipulated as coming from our creator.
And who is our “creator”? Personally, for me, it’s the Flying Spaghetti monster.
Where does it say that “creator” means “christian”?
June 6th, 2009 at 7:31 pmNot a word in there about Jesus. Not even about God.
This document is about the founding of this country. The Declaration of Independence is just that, a declaration, and nothing in it, not a single word, is related to the founding of the country. The document is primarily a long list of grievances and concludes with references to the “free and independent states”. It says not a word about how the country will be structured, nor a word about there even being a country.
The first attempt to create a country was the Articles of Confederation–which also has no mention of “god”. Or Jesus.
June 6th, 2009 at 7:32 pmCorrect me if I am wrong here but didn’t the the first settlers come here from Europe to escape religious persecution from the Catholic church and to live a life free, not under the thumb of the Church?
June 6th, 2009 at 7:32 pmThe closest I have ever come to having any “religious” convictions was back when I read Stranger in a Strange Land. At time the “thou art god” resonated with me. I was my own god to myself. And since I took total responsibility for who I was and how I lived my life, rather than turning those responsibilities over to some “supreme being”, I qualified as being my own god.
June 6th, 2009 at 7:33 pmAmericasBack Says:
…Maybe he’ll run for president in 2012?
No question about it, which is why he’s reared his ugly head again after years hiding in someone’s basement. He may never get any funding, of course, but he’s certainly positioning himself as the front-runner. He gets more on-air time than any of the likely possibilities (and why not? it’s not as if he had a job to go to) and the media thinks he’s a genius. If nothing else, he’s laying the groundwork for being the “smart Sarah Palin.”
Conservatives don’t really care about infidelity, except when it occurs among Democrats. As long as Newt sticks to the correct platitudes, the Far Right has no problem with him. Rank and file may have no idea who he is, though, since he’s been out work for quite some time.
June 6th, 2009 at 7:35 pmMy point was that the first permanent settlement was not fleeing religious persecution. Many Americans mistakenly believe the English colonies were the first to settle here. I suspect many would say the Mayflower brought the first settlers here.
The Spanish claimed all of North America as theirs after Ponce De Leon found the peninsula in the spring of 1513 and name it Florida, for the flowers in bloom. There were several attempts at colonizing the new land but the native Indians prevented that (probably due to earlier, unrecorded visitors on slaving raids). Then there was the discovery of gold and silver in Mexico and South America that diverted the attention of the Spanish until they got wind of the French Huguenots intentions to establish a colony in Florida.
St. Augustine’s primary purpose was as a base for Spanish soldiers and sailors protecting the treasure fleets sailing from Havana to Spain that used the Gulf Stream to expedite their journeys.
June 6th, 2009 at 7:38 pmI had two creators. My Mom and Dad. As the free child of free citizens I never saw a need for any other claim to my inalienable rights.
June 6th, 2009 at 7:38 pmgummitch,
If they want to look for God or Jesus in the Articles of Confederation, they will be disappointed, too. There is one use of the word Lord, but it wouldn’t be the proof they seek. It’s the final paragraph which reads, “In Witness whereof we have hereunto set our hands in Congress. Done at Philadelphia in the State of Pennsylvania the ninth day of July in the Year of our Lord One Thousand Seven Hundred and Seventy-Eight, and in the Third Year of the independence of America.”. Wouldn’t prove we were a “Christian nation” either.
June 6th, 2009 at 7:38 pmI bet newty has a picture of a blonde hair/blue eye Jesus.
The real one!
HAHAHAHAHA
June 6th, 2009 at 7:39 pmSorry, gummitch. I did not read your entire post, or else I wouldn’t have looked for that link. Me bad. :(
June 6th, 2009 at 7:39 pmBecause only in the United States does citizenship start with our creator.
Actually, he’s a citizen of the U.S. because he was born there.
.
Uncle Fester Lurks Says:
Correct me if I am wrong here but didn’t the the first settlers come here from Europe to escape religious persecution from the Catholic church and to live a life free, not under the thumb of the Church?
Some. Many of the Protestant pilgrims came here to escape persecution from the Protestant Church of England. The realy problem with state religion is that it inevitably becomes defined so narrowly that it excludes any freedom of religious practice, even of the same religion, even of the same or similar denomination of that religion.
When questions of theology become questions of law, the rulings exclude those who believe otherwise. If we had Christianity as a state religion, then transubstantiation and the legality of divorce become legal matters rather than matters of personal conscience, leading to persecution even among Christians.
June 6th, 2009 at 7:44 pmUncle Fester Lurks says: Correct me if I am wrong here but didn’t the the first settlers come here from Europe to escape religious persecution from the Catholic church and to live a life free, not under the thumb of the Church?
I don’t believe Native Americans knew much about the Catholic church until Europeans showed up. Then it did not go too well for them.
June 6th, 2009 at 7:44 pmAs far as this whole “we were founded as a Christian nation” thing goes, I believe that the right wing has constructed an argument which they believe proves they are right. I think they are cherry-picking certain things to make their case. Whatever the facts are, what concerns me is that they are extrapolating from this theory of our nation’s founding to argue that our laws should align with Biblical law (despite the fact that they refuse to name which version of Christian Bible they want our laws modeled after). Their initial claims are shaky at best (they disagree, but what should one expect from someone who believes that his theory is correct no matter what, and that the facts simply haven’t been found yet which prove it?), but they are using those claims as the foundation for changing our entire nation’s laws. That they do not understand how this would amount to “establishment of religion” (BTW, who’s in charge of stoning the women?) continues to amaze and frustrate me.
June 6th, 2009 at 7:44 pmAmericasBack Says:
Romar, don’t you get that our founding documents were written not too long after they burned at the stake and crushed to death with stones so called witches?
One of their political leaders probably told them they were “surrounded by pagans.”
June 6th, 2009 at 7:45 pmralph the wonder locust @ 118
I like George Carlin’s take on the 10 Commandments:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkRYaMiP4K8
June 6th, 2009 at 7:46 pmI think it would be fun to throw Newty down a hill to see how far he bounces and to see if gawd comes to his rescue.
June 6th, 2009 at 7:46 pmWayne Ant Schneider Says: Wouldn’t prove we were a “Christian nation” either.
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I agree Wayne and for those who like to say we are a Christian nation should probably ask the native Americans, the African Americans, Women and all of the countries we have invaded at the behest of our corporations so that they could steal their natural resources. A Christian nation would be against usury, would care for it’s poor, it’s sick…heh I guess that leaves out the republicans!
To me a Christian nation would be a nation where all of it’s citizens recognized and followed the teachings of Christ. It would be a nation where they would hold their government accountable for atrocities committed and corruption. The USA a Christian nation…my a$$!
June 6th, 2009 at 7:47 pmAw, Romartin gave up so quickly?
Would have been nice to discuss this issue calmly and rationally.
June 6th, 2009 at 7:48 pmIve always found it strange that liberals despise religion, except when it comes to Islam. They stick up for muslims ( which are 10 times more radical than any christian or jew ). Why is that?
June 6th, 2009 at 7:48 pmHey Kay, whats up? Still raining here in Minny…God do we need it too!
June 6th, 2009 at 7:48 pmTreaty of Tripoli anyone?
June 6th, 2009 at 7:49 pmLevi,
You’ve missed the entire point.
You do not have to be religious, or of any one religion, to have these basic rights of life, liberty, pursuit of happiness. Be an atheist, fine. That’s the beauty of citizenship here, we tolerate all religions or lack thereof.
And better yet, being religious or an atheist is not a requirement of citizenship here.
You just don’t like that your country’s founders determined that your basic rights are not given to you by any one man or government, but by what they call your creator.
June 6th, 2009 at 7:49 pmPoint of fact: as Newt Gingrich has recently converted to Catholicism, his church can not recognize his current (third) marriage. According to his own currently professed faith, he is an unrepentant ongoing serial adulterer. I would think this would be worse than being gay-married, since adultery is explicitly prohibited in the Ten Commandments.
June 6th, 2009 at 7:49 pmIf our moral code and ethics are straight out of the bible then we are all in some deep $hit. Huckabee is an IDIOT, I’m from Arkansas and believe me he was a $hitty governor. Religion has no place in politics. When these elected officials go to work they need to leave the d@mn bible at home. All these people that stand outside with their picket signs that say ‘Faggot’ and other hate mongering names have the ball$ to call themselves Christians? Where the hell do they get off? I thought that their bible says ‘love thy neighbor’ and ‘if your enemy strikes your left cheek turn and let him strike your right one as well’. Do they not realize that according to their own bible they are gonna get a ticket to hell faster than the people they are discriminating against? They are all hypocrites. They cherry pick stuff from the bible that furthers their agenda and leave the rest. I personally feel that if you are going to have the bible as your holy book and wave it around all over the place, you should at least abide by it COMPLETELY and not just choose what you will and won’t do. Furthermore, I’m not even religious but I have a hard time believing that if God does exist he would send someone to hell just because they are gay and if he does then he isn’t a god that I wanna have anything to do with and a religion that does nothing but breed hate and fear is not a religion that I wanna have anything to do with. Also their own bible says that nobody but God is allowed to judge people. IF God does exist and he does see homosexuality as a sin, then he will take care of it in the afterlife. He doesn’t need a bunch of crazy a$$ people on Earth trying to play God. It’s pretty bas that I seem to know more about the bible than most ‘Christians’.
June 6th, 2009 at 7:50 pmWell, jimmy, the reason you find it strange is because it’s a fantasy in your own head.
I expect you have a lot of things in your mind that you have always found strange, and I’m betting that if you checked them against the Reality-Based Community™, you’d find that most of them are fantasies, too.
June 6th, 2009 at 7:51 pmErr I meant ’sad’ not ‘bas’.
June 6th, 2009 at 7:51 pmJimmy Big Bucks Says:
Ive always found it strange that liberals despise religion, except when it comes to Islam. They stick up for muslims ( which are 10 times more radical than any christian or jew ). Why is that?
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I’ve always found it strange that conservatives always seem to be under the false assumption that liberals despise religion. We don’t despise religion, in fact many of us liberals are Christians who refuse to wear our religion as a shield or tell others how to live their lives.
As with the extremists of the religious right we do not tolerate the extremists in the Muslim faith. All religions have their radicals, their methods of killing may differ but death is death and murder is murder.
June 6th, 2009 at 7:53 pmRomartin16985 Says:
You just don’t like that your country’s founders determined that your basic rights are not given to you by any one man or government, but by what they call your creator.
You just don’t like that your country’s founders determined that your basic rights are best guaranteed by a very carefully written document that doesn’t rely on supernatural powers. They were VERY careful about that.
You still have not explained why there are no references to God in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights, if in fact the Founders were so “religious”.
June 6th, 2009 at 7:56 pmNo Romartin16985, you don’t understand.
Our Founding Fathers specifically excluded religious authority from our government at it’s inception. They had witnessed what religious rule does and endeavored to spare us it’s horrors.
None of this was even debated before the Red Scare when a bunch of frightened children decided that God was against communism and, therefore, we were “with God”. Or “under God” to be more precise. Alas, in our fear, we didn’t laugh them right out of the room.
June 6th, 2009 at 7:57 pmHow can you be a christian and a liberal? Liberals support abortion and gay rights. Both of those go against the christian bible.
June 6th, 2009 at 7:57 pmNewt is VERY popular with thrice-married, fat, old, white racists who watch a lot of FOX TV and vote GOP. For all other groups he has a lot of work to do.
June 6th, 2009 at 7:57 pmJimmy Big Bucks Says:
How can you be a christian and a liberal? Liberals support abortion and gay rights. Both of those go against the christian bible.
Nope. Try reading the “Christian Bible” some time instead of spouting platitudes.
June 6th, 2009 at 7:58 pmWhy is that?
June 6th, 2009 at 7:59 pm—
It isn’t. You just said it to try and get a response.
How can you be a christian and a conservative? Conservatives support torture and social injustice. Both of those go against the christian bible.
June 6th, 2009 at 8:00 pmBut what YOU don’t understand, Ro, is that “Creator” is not specifically Christian.
The thing that defines Christianity is Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ is nowhere mentioned in the founding documents. The “Creator” is language, i suspect carefully crafted, that can equally reflect the Christian God The Father, the Jewish Yahweh, the Muslim Allah, or the Lenni Lenape Kijiamuh Ka’ong, the Creator Who Creates By Thinking What Will Be.
None of the elements that identify something as “Christian” are present in the founding documents — no reference to Jesus, no citation of the Gospels, no quote from the Epistles of Paul. Nothing but a reference to the single indiscriminate “Creator”.
June 6th, 2009 at 8:00 pmWho can say who REALLY wrote the bible? It was written a LONG time ago. And how do you know that your God isn’t a progressive god? How do know what really draws his ire? Because of what a book written by man thousands of years ago told you? Times change on earth. Things that are mainstream now were once taboo. How do you know he hasn’t changed his mind? Hmmmmmmmmm?????????????
June 6th, 2009 at 8:02 pmIt would be charming if little Jimmy Big Bucks were actually asking his rhetorical questions with an interest in the answer, instead of simply as a means of catapulting his own personal misguided propaganda.
June 6th, 2009 at 8:03 pmJimmy Big Bucks Says:
How can you be a christian and a liberal? Liberals support abortion and gay rights. Both of those go against the christian bible.
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How can you be a Christian and be a conservative? Conservatives support war, torture and hate.
According to the bible homosexuality is a sin, no different from adultery, lying, stealing….One thing the so called “Christians” on the right seem to forget is that we are all God’s children, yes even gays and lesbians. I believe we are not to judge other lest we be judged ourselves.
June 6th, 2009 at 8:03 pmThose truths were held, first and foremost, as self-evident, so that presupposes any ‘gift of God’, and also allows for that dear old first amendment.
Rediscover the Golden Rule, then talk about how Chirstian we are. Tell me how a Christian nation would tolerate torture at all, much less dragged out like it has been. Give us Universal Health Care, love your enemy like your brother, give unto God what is God’s, and give unto the government what is the government’s, and I’d be more inclined to believe we have a founding in Christianity. Nothing in the early history supports their claims.
June 6th, 2009 at 8:05 pmLevi the Dungbeetle Says:
I didn’t mean to leave them out. I myself am a Druid, and there isn’t anything much more pagan than the religion Christians destroyed through violence to create the nightmare of modern Christianity.
I’m actually Wiccan myself and it kills me that Christianity has “borrowed” so much from Paganism then we get insulted because of the misinformation they spread. All the while ignorant of the fact that their religion is basically stolen and distorted.
I tried Christianity at a local church when I was a teenager but instead of helping me after I was assaulted, they thought I was a bad influence on the other kids and basically chose to be nice to my face and talk about how messed up I was behind my back. I thought the Christian thing to do would be to help me and not judge.
I don’t blame Christianity or Christians in general. Just the handfull of them who seem to be running the Republican party right now. That local church would fit right in.
June 6th, 2009 at 8:05 pmWhy is it that these so called “Christians” on the religious right ALWAYS take bible verses and twist them to fit their own agendas?
June 6th, 2009 at 8:06 pmThey think they are sly and can twist $hit around until it’s fubar and then think they can stifle any static about it by declaring anybody who is against them is against God.
June 6th, 2009 at 8:10 pmFor some reason nowadays, everytime someone brings up religion and their trying to force that religion on everyone else, I can’t help but think of al Qaeda and the 9/11 attacks.
June 6th, 2009 at 8:10 pmThere’s an old blues tune by Sonny Terry & Brownie McGhee that says “If somebody told you that God was on your side, well I was told the very same thing, so you know somebody lied.”
My guess is that that somebody was Newt Gingrich.
Hey GOP, keep pandering to your frightened base of sheep (your “flock,” Messiah Newt), it’s working out really well for you.
June 6th, 2009 at 8:15 pmwizard2000 Says:
For some reason nowadays, everytime someone brings up religion and their trying to force that religion on everyone else, I can’t help but think of al Qaeda and the 9/11 attacks.
June 6th, 2009 at 8:19 pm““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““`
Yes, the American Taliban is dangerous, alive and well here in our country.
I think real conservatives know that Newt Gingrich’s “Contract with America” was really a “Contract with K-Street” that led, ultimately, to his leaving the House in disgrace.
June 6th, 2009 at 8:19 pmAbove the Clouds Says:
I think real conservatives know that Newt Gingrich’s “Contract with America” was really a “Contract with K-Street” that led, ultimately, to his leaving the House in disgrace.
June 6th, 2009 at 8:22 pm““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““
Well maybe, but many heard the name “America” and were fooled. Kind of like when those (republicans) who were behind the creation of the Federal Reserve decided to add the word “Federal” to the name to make it sound good and legitimate.
No pete, YOU don’t get it.
I am aware that our founders very carefully separated religion from government.
But our Declaration of Independence does state that all of us have basic rights that come not from government, but from the Creator.
June 6th, 2009 at 8:23 pmI’m tired of reading some of the posts that suggests Liberals and Democrats are hostile to religion. That is not true. I beleive in God and the goodness of all faiths. Suggesting that Islam and other faiths are not as worthy as Christianity is wrong. God loves all people, not just a select few. I wonder why some Christians(not all) feel they are superior to others? Arrogance, is what I call it.
June 6th, 2009 at 8:24 pmI suppose continually pointing out to Romartin that “The Creator” is not particularly Christian will just waste everyone’s time…
June 6th, 2009 at 8:26 pmAmericasBack Says:
Hey Uncle Fester, there are quite a few people I know who are republicrimes that are God-less. They hold their noses when they see the GNOP act like newt. One more reason your party is about to GO AWAY (hmmm, maybe there is a God)
June 6th, 2009 at 8:29 pm““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““`
Yo AB…where in any of my comments here could you possibly have mistaken me for a republican…Wow! That’s a first. No dude, I despise the republican party, it’s hypocrisy and everything else it stands for.
Poor Newt. Not even the patron saint of the Republican Party is on his side.Ronald Reagan once introduced himself in a speech to the General Assembly of the United Nations as “both a citizen of the United States and of the world.”
June 6th, 2009 at 8:30 pmWell said P.D. @ 222!!!!!!
June 6th, 2009 at 8:30 pmIf one wonders how a Christian be a liberal? I would suggest asking Jimmy Carter. To any objective observer, he lives his Faith far more than any Reichwhiner I’ve ever heard. Yet, somehow, Reagan and Fallwell convinced a LOT of good Christians that lying con men like themselves were the religious conscience of America. Considering their record, I can’t imagine how any Christian can support these enemies and, if recent polls are any indication, those good Christians have arrived at the same conclusion.
The “religious right” is neither Christian nor conservative. They are liars, charlatans, and ignorant, violent, fools. They are reckless radicals who preach extremism. That’s why they are polling around 20% and falling. It’s become impossible to polish the turd.
June 6th, 2009 at 8:30 pmwell said it
Sesli Chat
Sesli Chat
Sesli Sohbet
Görüntülü Chat
June 6th, 2009 at 8:30 pmWhere are the festivals?
With the exception of a few harmless Wiccans, the only pagans in our society are those who worship money, those that worship military action, and those that worship both.
June 6th, 2009 at 8:31 pmExcellent point, pete.
There’s a reason that the Elmer Gantry figure is an American archetype.
June 6th, 2009 at 8:32 pmThis may sound weird but I have noticed that many Christians have this weird pickle smell. I suspicion that it’s Jesus juice.
June 6th, 2009 at 8:33 pmNo worries, AB — just know that your gesture was appreciated too.
June 6th, 2009 at 8:35 pmAnd many generations of American scholars and historians and even theologians (pre-WW2) were nearly unanimous in their conclusion that the word “creator”, as used in the Declaration of Independence, was an inclusive term.
If that was not their intention, I am quite sure that the authors would have phrased it differently. They were pretty good at saying what they meant.
June 6th, 2009 at 8:36 pmAmericasBack Says:
OT – how do I give the 3 thums up I got back to Wayne? It was his post – not mine! I just repeated it
When I recommend a post that praises a previous post, I look at it as a way of giving the original a second, or third, recommendation.
June 6th, 2009 at 8:38 pmRalph TWL, I am ashamed I didn’t get to the Elmer Gantry comparison before you mentioned it. EXACTLY right you are – and I must be getting slow in my old age.
June 6th, 2009 at 8:39 pmSpeeches like this one scare me. They don’t make me scared for my life. THEY MAKE ME SCARED FOR MY COUNTRY.
June 6th, 2009 at 8:42 pmI’m afraid that too many people out there won’t be able to recognize this for the pile of crap that it is. I REALLY don’t want us to EVER have to go through what we went through under Bush again. It gives me chills.
June 6th, 2009 at 8:44 pmRomartin, please get a dictionary and look up the word declartion. Maybe if you knew what the word means, you wouldn’t keep bring this shit up as if it means anything concerning the founding of our nation. It was nothing more then a message to the King.
June 6th, 2009 at 8:45 pmWe the people of Earth are a God (Spirit/Faith) based entity.
Our founding fathers knew and believed that with all of their heart. Read your history dear deluded many.
Were it not for the faith of those forefathers and settlers and their belief in the foundation that God was the architect behind what is and was, all that defined what right and wrong should be, God was,
and (1) our forefather’s reason to come to America to give themselves a better life, (2) to “free themselves from religious persecution and a tyrannical leader” mainly the Roman Catholic Church who wanted one religion.
Our fore fathers founded this nation on the fact that God was and should be the foundation on which stands all actions, in life, with religion and with the nation.
Everything was to be placed under that authority and so our country become a nation of honorable God fearing believing Americans who knew that ultimately, A God was in control.
June 6th, 2009 at 8:45 pmI don’t believe Native Americans knew much about the Catholic church until Europeans showed up. Then it did not go too well for them. — Liberal Voter
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You’re not kidding. Your post reminds me of a quote which has been apocryphally attributed to several famous people who belong(ed) to conquered indigenous nations, including Native Americans:
“When the white men first arrived, they had the church and we had the land. They taught us that we should close our eyes to pray — and when we opened our eyes, we had the church but they had the land.”
(I’m paraphrasing somewhat since I don’t remember the precise words of the quote — but the basic gist is there.)
June 6th, 2009 at 8:47 pmwritepro, wow! was that a sermon from the mount or what. You really have a small grasp of history, but what do expect from someone who was home schooled. I’m sure you can’t wait for the rapture.
June 6th, 2009 at 8:50 pm.
This ridiculous bullsh*t is a joke to us, like most sane people. But conservatives are not sane, and they are armed. These are fighting words, terroristic threats, incitements to violence against the US government, shouting fire in a crowded theater, all of which are illegal. If Lefties carried on such a campaign and deaths resulted, they’d be Gitmo’d.
Let’s lock up the leadership of this “movement,” before more innocent people are killed.
Hey, they wrote the Patriot Acts. They approve of torture. They don’t want to close Gitmo. Let’s give them a taste of their own medicine.
June 6th, 2009 at 8:50 pm.
I was thinking… If only those who say other religions aren’t worthy enough, like Newt, Palin and all the other righties, are allowed in Heaven, wouldn’t that suck? I mean, if I had too spend eternitiy with those clowns, I would rather be in Hell.
June 6th, 2009 at 8:52 pmI don’t knows about Americans being surrounded by paganism, but it’s for damn sure that wherever there’s a republican politician, there’s a ruthless, lying, remorseless criminal. Mafia crime families could take lessons from these monsters… and to cloak what they do in the Word of God!
June 6th, 2009 at 8:52 pmIt’s really impossible to argue with anyone as deluded as, writepro. Suffice to say that it’s a load of demonstrably wrong BS.
However, I have to comment on point #2.
No one with the faintest conception of history would be stupid enough to claim the impetus for the founding of this country was to defy the Roman Catholic Church. It’s just plain wrong.
June 6th, 2009 at 8:53 pmWhy does this god of yours want to be feared?
June 6th, 2009 at 8:55 pmGingrich is no different than a Serbian Dictator. Willing to say anything to incite people so that like a stinky turd, he can float to the top. He belongs in prison, all we need is a law against his BS.
June 6th, 2009 at 8:55 pmHere’s a video. It’s probably produced by Christians to raise an awareness about Muslim demographic projections.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU
The general point is that Western Christians fertility rate is significantly below the 2.1 level required to sustain itself. Conversely, the Muslim fertility rate is 8.1.
Mainly due to this, most of Western Europe, and North America and the World, will be majority Muslim populations in several decades. And the population trends are pretty much irreversible for the foreseeable future.
My point is this: Fundamentalist Christians will inevitable lose the theocracy battle simply due to fertility rates and immigration. It’s a done deal.
My suggestion to Gingrich is to stop fighting the Pagans; they are really your only hope.
Fundamentalist Islam won’t moderate by being confronted by holier than thou Christians. One intolerant monotheism for another? No, they will moderate when they get a taste of the Pagan decadence that Gingrich errantly focuses on (and should be co-opting).
And it is only that moderation that will permit the tolerance that will be required from future majority Muslims; so Gingrich and his Christian brother’s decendants can freely practice the faith they love.
June 6th, 2009 at 8:58 pmGörüntülü
June 6th, 2009 at 8:58 pmI have no idea how it is pronounced or what the hell it means but this is definately what I would want for a vanity plate if I was one of those dorks that finds it necessary to have a vanity plate….
If anybody really thinks Newt believes in any of the christian hype, I get to be pope and wear the pointy hat.
June 6th, 2009 at 8:59 pmJust look at the reptile. Consumed by a story book, but only when it suits him. He takes lore, then he distorts that to fail to make his point in the first place. The reptile’s mind is a slippery place… I want DNA tests done on Gnewt Gingrisch.
June 6th, 2009 at 8:59 pmAnd, just as a point of historical fact, most of the religious refugees in the early waves of immigration died out or were absorbed by groups with the savvy to survive. Soldiers, merchants, explorers, innovators, and entrepreneurs formed this nation. Religious fanatics, mostly, cowered in fear until they starved to death or, decided to stop waiting for God to bless them and learned to conquer the new, real, world.
June 6th, 2009 at 9:00 pm@247 dbadass Says:
insecure?
June 6th, 2009 at 9:03 pminferiority complex?
mean streak?
backup Says:
The general point is that Western Christians fertility rate is significantly below the 2.1 level required to sustain itself. Conversely, the Muslim fertility rate is 8.1.
Mainly due to this, most of Western Europe, and North America and the World, will be majority Muslim populations in several decades. And the population trends are pretty much irreversible for the foreseeable future.
June 6th, 2009 at 9:05 pm**************************************************************
This is because quite a few Christians out there are closet case homosexuals. The saying ‘Me think thou doth protest too much’ springs to mind. Not that there is anything wrong with homosexuality. They should just embrace it instead of hiding it.
pete@253, Remember during the drought in Atlanta when the Govenor held a prayer ceremony to pray to God for rain? If I were him I would have started constructing water desalinzation plants. The Good Lord helps those who help themselves.
June 6th, 2009 at 9:05 pmi suspect you have not read the entire thread. My comments began with one to Lunaluz in response to his comments about the first European settlers in North America. I’m well aware that the natives here when the Europeans arrived were the first settlers. I also think the Native Americans preceded the Europeans by 30 to 40 thousand years, not just a few.
I hope that helps your opinion about my “loopyness”.
June 6th, 2009 at 9:07 pmRediscovering God in America?! Are you fu(king kidding me?!!! This is the best they can come up with? That’s right, find God, cower in fear and we’ll take care of everything. What a crock of shit! These guys couldn’t find their own ass unless a lobbyist paid them to.
How about rediscovering our industrial fortitude. How about rediscovering our inventive and innovative prowess. How about rediscovering those family values you republicans always talk about but, never seem to name one (maybe preventing millions of families from losing their homes because of your selfish financial shenanigans should be one). How about rediscovering our humanity!
June 6th, 2009 at 9:07 pmpete:
June 6th, 2009 at 9:08 pmweren’t the forced to eat their own dead at Jamestown?
backup Says:
Mainly due to this, most of Western Europe, and North America and the World, will be majority Muslim populations in several decades.
So?
In 1450 the Christian population of North and South America was 0.
In 1 B.C. the Christian population of the World was 0.
They’ve had a good run. If another takes over? It will have the same successes and failures. The real answer is to stop killing people because of ancient myths. Surely there are plenty of real-time reasons to kill people without depending on old fiction?
June 6th, 2009 at 9:08 pmHi Uncle! *waving* I stepped away from the computer for awhile and now I’m winding down to go to bed. Hope you’re well and so happy to hear you’re getting some much needed rain! ;-)
June 6th, 2009 at 9:09 pmIs it just me or does Newt look like he’s holding semen in his mouth in the picture of this post?
Okay, going to bed! Thank you and good night!
June 6th, 2009 at 9:12 pmdbadass Says:
pete:
weren’t the forced to eat their own dead at Jamestown?
Perhaps. There were certainly many tales of cannibalism in Colonial America but, I must confess, my gentle nature makes me tend to skim past those chapters of history and forget the details.
What is certain is that most of the “religious refugees” didn’t fare well without a seasoned military command and considerable concessions to necessity.
June 6th, 2009 at 9:13 pmpete Says: #260
Thank you!
June 6th, 2009 at 9:14 pmWhile reading these posts one thing comes to mind: in the wise words of the illustrious Eddie Izzard….blasphemy, blaspheyou, blaspheeverybodyintheroom…….but it makes me chuckle.
June 6th, 2009 at 9:18 pmWhen Newt says “Pagan” I wonder if refering to the only-slightly-more-creditable-than-scientology “religion” or to non Christians in general.
Either way he’s a dick.
June 6th, 2009 at 9:20 pmWritepro, please tell me you are kidding in #240 – the American Revolution was about taxes, not the Roman Catholic Church, and as for the Founding Fathers’ view of Christianity, let’s not portray as flawless an ideology that either embraced or tolerated slavery and did not include women’s suffrage. YOU and people like you (and Newt G.)are the reason that people in America are turning away from fundamentalist Christianity, because you nuts would nail Jesus up as a filty liberal if he ever dared give the Sermon on the Mount in “modern” America.
June 6th, 2009 at 9:21 pmwritepro, our founding fathers were all religious yes but their numbers included multiple practicing Catholics so no you’re wrong to assume they all hated the Catholic Church.
June 6th, 2009 at 9:25 pmMr. Evil Says: #265
You’re welcome!
June 6th, 2009 at 9:26 pmcd Says:
writepro, our founding fathers were all religious
A minor quibble, cd. Some of our Founding Fathers were irreligious. Many would fit the modern term “agnostic” and a few would probably call themselves “atheists”.
June 6th, 2009 at 9:30 pmWe have another kind of troll infestation lately—the activist troll. It especially shows up on threads concerning religion, abortion, DADT, O’Reilly, and Limbaugh. I suspect most of these keyboard commandos hit and run, without reading any of the comments. They are worth arguing, but I wouldn’t lose the thread over one.
When they do stick around and argue, and it’s clear that they are on topic and responding to comments, we typically mop the thread with them by arguing with the facts they don’t use.
There was a spike of trolls on the Inhofe thread yesterday. I’m wondering where these people come from. They’re trying to convince us that there is something fundamentally wrong, and they’re all over the place. They’re invoking Carter, even. Is this coming from O’Reilly, or what?
June 6th, 2009 at 9:32 pmWhy do we always have to throw out the baby with the bathwater?
Religion is sacred to hundreds of millions of Americans and we should not desecrate it or disrespect their beliefs.
That’s the baby.
And the bathwater, is the mingling of religion with government, which should never occur and was never intended to occur by our founding fathers.
The mingling of religion with government is a disaster, and men like Newt Gingrich use religion as a tool to beguile the masses.
So lets throw out the bathwater, and leave the baby alone.
June 6th, 2009 at 9:32 pm…fundamentally wrong with being liberal…
June 6th, 2009 at 9:33 pmI wish it were true. I’m tired of these religious extremists.
June 6th, 2009 at 9:34 pmThe fact is that Paganism is rising, and anti-religion sentiment, anti-God rhetoric gains great popularity in this age, because it speaks the to the truth on the demise of human society.
Communizing homosexuality, loosening moral identity, female sedition, degradation and demise of ethical humor with the innuendo laden comedy of Family Guy’s pedophilic contexts, and animal and human sexual relationships.
And we think it is “okay” to show this insanity. If you make it funny, it becomes “Okay.”
Homosexuality, Pedophilia, Animalism, Incest, Adultery, Sedition, Paganism. It’s all “okay” if you can laugh it off.
Just beware, we become what we do. And we are what we do.
What was once thought God’s Green Earth became a less deityzed Mother Earth in the new age. And if so, we should be ashamed we are treating Mother so badly. But…
This is what comes of a world without God.
This is what is meant by the Paganism of America. We have lessoned the identity of God in human life, and now we suffer from the moral decay of those without a definitive direction.
June 6th, 2009 at 9:37 pmpete. I won’t shed a tear at the decline of Christianity, but if the world will be taken over by Muslims, I prefer it be taken over by moderate Muslims.
A world with religious freedom, women’s rights, gay rights, etc.
The current world threats to those freedoms are less Christian than Muslim.
June 6th, 2009 at 9:39 pmThat’s right. There’s a group of fundamentalists that is growing, and has little to do with the religion they profess to hold dear. Most Christians fortunately do not fall into that category, but this particular group is growing, and gaining steam.
That’s why I think it’s important to not offend the religious in general, and instead bring them into the ranks of the liberals, the moderates, the progressives and the independents, to expose the nonsense of this hate religion which is so eerily similar to fundamentalist Muslim extremists, that it’s shocking.
It’s that sort of extremism and bastardization of their own religions that causes so much hate, war, oppression and corruption wherever it occurs.
June 6th, 2009 at 9:40 pmwritepro Says:
Homosexuality, Pedophilia, Animalism, Incest, Adultery, Sedition, Paganism. It’s all “okay” if you can laugh it off.
***********************************************************
Homosexuality doesn’t belong in the same sentence as the rest of this crap. Homosexuals aren’t perverts. Neither are adulterers. Of all the things to waste time complaining about. Let’s see there are wars, rape, disease, famine et al. But homosexuality is what they chose to rally around. Once again me think thou doth protest too much.
June 6th, 2009 at 9:43 pm1) Citizenship is granted by most countries upon live birth in their recognized boundaries. The rights of citizenship in that country accompany it. Israel, as far as I know, is the only one that gives citizenship based on being conceived in their country.
2) ‘Creator’ covers anything, from the Flying Spaghetti Monster to the Great Spirit. BTW, wouldn’t it be interesting to see if anyone can figure out whether the Mongolians who left that region to come across the Bering bridge 10 – 20,000 years ago, were fleeing from religious persecution?
3) Jefferson only considered the New Testament translations for his work. From Latin, French, Hebrew and English. It is a really SHORT book. His intro is particularly good. That Jesus was a man with an incredibly good idea he was just beginning to develop when the Romans put him on a cross. Moreover, Jesus did not read or write so had nothing to do with what eventually was written about his teachings. There’s a whole lot of new information about memory – like a lot of it is really a memory of a memory, of a memory. Kinda has an effect like the old game of telephone.
4) Given the world of anger, hatred and violence that we live in, I am totally unable to wrap my brain around people telling consenting adults NOT to love each other.
5) What totally freaks me (a deist of ‘The Force’ and Unitarian-Universalist) is not just the extent we have Christian churches everywhere, but the degree of control that group has over the GOP, the military, education, etc. THEN there is The Family, by Jeff Sharlet. That will give you much more heart failure than pagans, devils and zombies.
June 6th, 2009 at 9:43 pmSpeaking as one of the pagans that “surround Americans”, I fear fundamentaltalistic Christianity just as much as fundamentalist Islam. I am not sure if most Americans realize how much grief a non-Christian gets. People like me have to practice their religion in secret, to avoid Christian bigotry. We are often treated as second class citizens simply because we are different.
The Druid God is quite different from the Christian/Jewish/Muslim God(s), in that it is not personified. If God exists, it is not like humans, it does not feel like humans do, it does not think like humans do, it has virtually nothing in common with humanity. Humans are simply something that God created, along with every other thing in existence. For a human to presume to know the will of God is to presume that God can even have a will humans could comprehend.
I seem to remember not long ago the wingnuts had a talking point about how they “surround us”, now apparently they are feeling surrounded by Witches and Druids…..
It’s not nice to fool with Mother Nature.
June 6th, 2009 at 9:45 pmDear Newt,
All the members of your group are pro-gun, pro-slavery, anti-labor, anti-abortion, anti-gay, war mongering, white, neoconservative, Bible thumping, flag humping, steal from the poor and give to the rich, hateful, racist, obnoxious, old men.
Did I leave anything out?
June 6th, 2009 at 9:46 pmHow much farther advanced, as a people and as a world, would we be if there no religion? Organized religion is the greatest evil ever perpetrated upon the human race. In a nutshell, religion offers this; if you screw up in life you get to live (after you die and are quite dead) in a permanent state of punishment. If you are good in life you get to live (after you die and are quite dead) in a permanent state of bliss. How can this be? How can you experience consciousness when you are dead? And in the grand scheme of things, what purpose does this serve, good or bad? You’re still dead! Oh, that’s right, you get to be either an angel or a demon. You know, invisible dead floatie things helping or hurting living people. What if an angel wants to help a person that a demon wants to hurt? I find all this shit to be an incredible waste of time.
June 6th, 2009 at 9:46 pmAnd Pedophilia, Animalism, Incest, are NEVER ok. Not even adultery is ok.
June 6th, 2009 at 9:47 pmFirst, what is “communizing homosexuality”?
Is there a group of homosexual communists planning on overthrowing the government that we’re not aware of?
Second, what is “female sedition”? Is there some woman’s movement I’m not aware of that is also planning on seizing a state and seceding from the Union?
Third, what episodes of the Family guy do you see pedophilia on, and who do you know that’s having sex with animals?
:|
Other than that pub down in Tijuana that is…
June 6th, 2009 at 9:47 pmI couldn’t agree more, WAYNEBRO. On the other hand, if I may mix metaphors, “sometimes the limb must be lost to save the body“.
It’s a question of balance that predates the history of, well, history. The earliest art and writings contain questions of Faith and Power. I’m certainly not going to try and answer them.
However, I can discuss and suggest. And, If I could arbitrarily proclaim one law without question, I think I would proclaim that anyone who says, “…and God said…”, in a political speech would be forever barred from elected office.
They can quote the Bible, and it’s many good lessons, all they want. But, if they exhibit a faith that God talks directly to any person living today? Nope! I can’t get behind that.
June 6th, 2009 at 9:48 pmpete I’m going to assume you are a welling meaning person who has been misinformed.
Of the signers of the DOI
About 57.1% were Anglican
23.2% were Congregationalist
21.4% were Presbyterian
3.6% were Quaker
3.6% were Unitarian
and 1.8% were Catholic
Yes many were independent thinkers but that is not necessarily the same as being an atheist or an agnostic.
PS I agree WAYNEBRO there is no need to throw out the baby with the bath water.
June 6th, 2009 at 9:50 pmStrange as it sounds, I think writepro is serious.
Never mind that the Roman Catholic Church was hardly the force of suppression that chased the Puritans from Britain, since Parliament had made the Catholic mass illegal in 1549 and, aside from a brief period when Mary i sat on the throne, the Church of England was the established religion of the land.
June 6th, 2009 at 9:51 pmwhat a bunch of lousy showboats. fire and brimstone. that’s all they got.
June 6th, 2009 at 9:51 pmbackup Says:
pete. I won’t shed a tear at the decline of Christianity, but if the world will be taken over by Muslims, I prefer it be taken over by moderate Muslims.
A world with religious freedom, women’s rights, gay rights, etc.
The current world threats to those freedoms are less Christian than Muslim.
The vast majority of the human population are, by definition, “moderate”. Only extremists, and ignorant moderates fooled by extremists, are extremists.
June 6th, 2009 at 9:52 pmAnd no, I am not a religious fanatic or Christian freak who would hang up Christ if he were to give the sermon on the mount today.
I would applaud his bravery and laud his stand for change in what was then a world going as wrong as the one we live in today.
I know full well the history of taxation and understand that not all the fore fathers were christian or catholic, but they all regardless knew that God should be included in the formation of a true and honest society.
It was that freedom of religion that gave rise to the standards set in the constiution. Sure slavery not withstanding was a bad thing. You’re talking to a black man here. But he idea that God should have a prominent place in the structure of that new society is what those men strove for.
They knew, just as our new president, that a nation without a spiritual identiy is doomed to fail.
Without a central God identity in the framework, man left to his own devices will contintue to destroy all that is around him because that is what he has taught himself to do the best.
We are only now, because we are scared and pray that it is not too late to save ourselves and the planet is anyone even considering that maybe there may be a God for real.
Scientist and Theorist, Atheist, Agnostic, Christian and Jew, Moslem or other are all now beginning to understand that something is “out there” and one of them could very well be God.
June 6th, 2009 at 9:53 pm“How much farther advanced, as a people and as a world, would we be if there no religion?”
Evil much as you might hate to admit it were it not for religion science might have slowed down.
Think about it.
If Gregor Mendel had been working in say a factory instead of a monastery’s garden would he have fathered genetics?
June 6th, 2009 at 9:53 pmI’d like to go on record supporting the idea of throwing out the baby but saving the bathwater if it’s practical.
June 6th, 2009 at 9:55 pmAnd there are about 1000 examples of how much further along we would be without religion.
Satanism is better than the drivel preached as religion by the Religious Right.
June 6th, 2009 at 9:56 pmI suspicion the ‘god’ the forefathers would have had in mind would have been…god. Lower case g. Not big G. Not Captain God with the big beard.
June 6th, 2009 at 9:56 pmSure, that’s all good. Where it becomes tricky is when one of those groups decides how they want to define “God” and then demand that everyone else follow along with their decision.
June 6th, 2009 at 9:57 pmNow I would like to share a fantasy idea that occurred to me a few weeks ago.
Anyone who has some expectation of being able to make contact with the Devil – or is willing to try. We need to point out that according to many devoted people, GOD is going to come soon and take them away temporarily while he destroys earth. Then rebuilds it and brings them back with Jesus to live in peace for a thousand years. (Never have figured out what happens after that…)
So the suggestion would be for the Devil to Pre-Empt GOD, Upstage the dude. Come and get all the evil people ASAP. It’s not like he’s going to get anymore souls for a thousand years.
Then the rest of us might well live in peace for 5000 years. Or more.
June 6th, 2009 at 9:57 pmI’ve got to hand it to writepro.
He doesn’t know anything about anything and he’s scared of everything about everything.
June 6th, 2009 at 9:57 pmAin’t religion grand?
June 6th, 2009 at 9:58 pmWritepro, you are wrong. By definition an atheist does not believe there is “something out there”. That is why he (or she) is an atheist. Atheists don’t “believe” anything.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:00 pmAgreed except I’d throw them out for quoting the bible too.
I see no reason for it in government.
For me, the very HINT of mingling religion with government is a recipe for disaster and has no place in modern thinking.
If we haven’t learned the myriad of lessons from history by now, that at NO time has the mingling of religion with government ever proven to be successful or produced desirable results, then we’ll never learn.
Religion has zero place in government beyond the allowance for tolerance.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:01 pmarkie you do know the founding fathers included ministers and church leaders right?
June 6th, 2009 at 10:02 pmQuote the bible in Sunday School. Quote the Bible in Synagogue or at the Mosque. Hell quote it on the street corner if you like.
But no American politician should EVER be quoting the bible from his elected office. Doing so assumes ALL of his constituents not only share his particular faith and beliefs, but his particular interpretation of those beliefs.
And that’s an assumption based in fallacy.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:02 pmRalph, have you ever actually seen bathwater after a baby has used it? You might as well throw out the bathwater, trust me on that one.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:02 pmcd. I’m a Catholic, but I don’t believe in God.
There’s a lot of information on both sides of whether the signers were significantly religious.
My take is that just like today, the politicians cared more for commerce and the religion was mainly for votes.
Jefferson was a deist. Thomas Paine (not a signer, but major conduit for independence) was an undeniable atheist.
After their forefathers experience in Europe, I don’t think the plan was to force one religion on the people.
That came in the form of historical revision.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:02 pmwritepro Says:
Scientist and Theorist, Atheist, Agnostic, Christian and Jew, Moslem or other are all now beginning to understand that something is “out there” and one of them could very well be God.
Nope. Wrong. Fail.
God is, by definitaion, supernatural. Atheists, realists, materialists, and naturalists, generally reject the notion of supernatural beings and events.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:03 pmOkay, let’s throw out the baby AND the bathwater. But if I find out I need to do some laundry, Levi, I’m comin’ for YOU.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:05 pmYup. But I also believe that they were smart enough not to cause the big $hit$torm that is now abrewing by avoiding banging on about religion whilst making the laws. They lived hundreds of years ago but are more tolerant in some ways than some are today.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:05 pmReally? Well since in that analogy the “Baby” was religion, and the “bathwater” was the “corruption of that religion and the mingling of it with government”, how exactly would one do that?
:|
Not to mention why.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:06 pmscytherius Says:
June 6th, 2009 at 10:06 pmActually, Satanism is part of the Christian mythology.
Those Pagans! Always cheating on their cancer-stricken wives. Such horrid people, Newt SHOULD be upset, darn it. The asswipe.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:07 pmHe’s just mad because a witch turned him into a Newt.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:07 pmGinny. The presumption is that the Devil is capable upstaging God. And more importantly, the Devil is not sitting back, racking his brain thinking: “What could I possibly due that would be more evil than destroying the earth?”
June 6th, 2009 at 10:07 pmYou pretty much nailed it writepro. Every society needs god, Jews, muslims and Christians all recognize that one god and at least agree about that.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:08 pm“I’m a Catholic, but I don’t believe in God.”
Yeah well the Catholics I’m refering to did.
Whatever Jefferson was he was religious and Thomas Paine (who I’m not sure should be counted) was a Deist
June 6th, 2009 at 10:08 pmUh, how then doth the Far Right explain their failure at the Crucifixion?
June 6th, 2009 at 10:08 pmI’m tired of reading some of the posts that suggests Liberals and Democrats are hostile to religion. That is not true. I beleive in God and the goodness of all faiths. Suggesting that Islam and other faiths are not as worthy as Christianity is wrong. God loves all people, not just a select few. I wonder why some Christians(not all) feel they are superior to others? Arrogance, is what I call it. — P.D.
**************************************************************
You speak at least in part for me as well, although I admit that I do tend to look somewhat askance at organized religion these days. Let’s get one thing straight…no matter how much some people might want to think otherwise, the terms “God” and “religion” are not necessarily interchangeable, nor are they even necessarily synonymous. Personally, I don’t think that someone who believes in the existence of a Higher Power — regardless of attribute in terms of name or form — is necessarily obliged to be in favor of religion. The Higher Power, or God if you prefer — provided that you even believe in such a thing — may have created human beings, but He/She/It/They did not create religion. There may be a Higher Power which created human beings — but historically, human beings have often to at least some extent attributed to the Higher Power(s) which are worshiped in their own culture whatever qualities which they themselves possess and/or which their own culture considers valuable. God may have created Man, but Man has also created God — or more specifically, religion. In my honest opinion, organized religion almost inevitably is and has been an attempt on the part of human beings — even if only on a subconscious level — to stuff the Higher Power(s)/God in a box and exert whatever degree of control over Him/Her/It/Them they can, even if only to give themselves an illusion of security and stability in what continues to be a frequently uncertain and ambiguous world.
This is the reason why I call myself a devout agnostic. As it happens, I do believe in the existence of a Higher Power although not necessarily a deity as such. I’m certainly not so arrogant as to presume that I am — or indeed, that any human being is — capable of comprehending, never mind defining, exactly what the Higher Power is any more than the proverbial Six Blind Beggars were capable of comprehending and defining what an elephant was. Unfortunately, in my experience, human beings have been and still are all too prone to turning religion into an ego trip and using it as an excuse to treat other people as if they were less important or less worthwhile. That being said, I wouldn’t say that I’m against religion since religion can serve a positive purpose when it motivates someone to truly are about and serve their fellow human beings. Religion also offers a moral foundation or framework for those people who have not yet reached the point at which they are capable of internalizing a a code of ethics. However, religion — like most other things created by human beings — has no inherent morality and has an equal potential to be used for great evil as well as great good.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:09 pmThe solution to the baby v. bathwater dilemma: baby showers.
It’s simple if you think about.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:10 pmReally? The Soviet Union did pretty good with an atheist society. So did China.
He’ll China did so good we have to borrow money from them.
Religion is a personal matter and should remain one.
Whenever someone starts talking about how we need religion in government, or worse, telling us what “God” wants US to do, you can be assured of one thing.
That guy doesn’t give a shit about any God, religion or people.
All that guy wants to do is control others.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:11 pmcd. If God meant for the U.S., and more generally, the world to be Christian; how do you explain the obvious demographic growth of Islam compared to the decline in Christianity?
June 6th, 2009 at 10:13 pm“Really? The Soviet Union did pretty good with an atheist society. So did China.”
You do know that life sucked in the USSR and for many it sucks living in Totalitarian China right?
June 6th, 2009 at 10:14 pmI’m sorry backup but I don’t understand your question at 321.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:15 pmcd. Many of the early settlers came to the new world to escape religious persecution.
If they were seeking a place where they could have the freedom to believe what they wanted to believe, why would you think they would mandate only one form of religious thought?
June 6th, 2009 at 10:16 pmUncle Fester Lurks Says:
Correct me if I am wrong here but didn’t the the first settlers come here from Europe to escape religious persecution from the Catholic church and to live a life free, not under the thumb of the Church?
It had nothing to do with religion, it’s another white man’s dream/lies, it’s what chimpy is counting on…LIES to revised the truth..
Britain wanted to get rid of their criminal elements. They shipped the crooks to this side of the hemisphere.
It had nothing to do with religion, it’s another white man’s dream/lies, it’s what chimpy is counting on…LIES.
Remember the Puritans? Ya can’t get not get no better than that ban of witch haters.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:18 pmcd Says:
——————————————————————————–
“Really? The Soviet Union did pretty good with an atheist society. So did China.”
You do know that life sucked in the USSR and for many it sucks living in Totalitarian China right?
Of course he doesn’t know that, he thinks those communist hellholes are paradise. Who cares if they treat their citizens like livestock…?
backup Says:
——————————————————————————–
cd. If God meant for the U.S., and more generally, the world to be Christian; how do you explain the obvious demographic growth of Islam compared to the decline in Christianity?
You should read the bible more often, because it warns us of a time when Christians are dropped to minority status.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:18 pm“why would you think they would mandate only one form of religious thought?”
I don’t think I made that claim.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:19 pmcd. Basically, if God meant for the world to be Christian, why is Islam growing at such a faster pace:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/islam.htm
June 6th, 2009 at 10:20 pm
pa?gan
??/?pe?g?n/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [pey-guhn] Show IPA
–noun
1. one of a people or community observing a polytheistic religion, as the ancient Romans and Greeks.
2. a person who is not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim.
3. an irreligious or hedonistic person.
–adjective
4. pertaining to the worship or worshipers of any religion that is neither Christian, Jewish, nor Muslim.
5. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of pagans.
6. irreligious or hedonistic.
If he is referring to agnostics and atheists, he should say so. It’s about time we made our voices heard.
If he’s referring to hedonists, then who is he really talking to?
June 6th, 2009 at 10:20 pmpa?gan??/?pe?g?n/–noun 1. one of a people or community observing a polytheistic religion, as the ancient Romans and Greeks.
2. a person who is not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim.
3. an irreligious or hedonistic person.
Therefore:
1. People who worship Ronald Reagan, money and the NRA would be pagans.
2. People who believe Christians are “above” Muslims are pagans.
3. People who bone their apprentices are pagans.
Maybe Newt has something here after all…
June 6th, 2009 at 10:20 pmEver been to Comptom? How about Flint Michigan? Annacostia?
What about Iran? They have religion as a rule. How’s life for them? What about Pakistan? They living high on the hog are they?
How about life under the Church of England, pre-colonial America? Was life pretty good then?
The fact is religious beliefs or the lack thereof have no place in government. Period. Our founding fathers didn’t want it and neither should we. And the republicans tried and are still trying to break that sacred separation of church and state, and mingle THEIR versions of religion, with OUR government.
:|
You got your theology in my democracy.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:20 pmyou’re right. I jumped to the conclusion that you believed that the signers intended the U.S. to be a Christian nation.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:21 pmI really resent being told Paganism is horrible from someone who follows a religion that is basically based upon a distortion of it.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:22 pmThere you go arguing the wrong question, b-kup. The choice is not between extremists of a particular faith. The choice we face is to accept or reject extremism regardless of faith.
Personally, I think the most efficient way to limit the extremism is to abandon the faith but, that’s certainly open to argument.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:23 pmbackup while I could give you any number of answers the fact it would be speculation on my part since I’m not God.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:24 pmNormally I would try convince you folk that christians are not all the facist right wing holier than thou type, nut I think I’d rather spend the evening trying to figure out how to commit “female sedition”.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:24 pmAw crap! I Submitted before I intended too. I was going to add:
You’re making some excellent points, b-kup. We may turn you to the Dark Side yet.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:25 pmI am scared of nothing, my friends. I thank God for that. Come what may, I am secure and peaceful with the fact that God does indeed exist.
I am not deluded as some into believing that Aleist do not believe in anything. They believe that evil exists, they believe that good exists, they just don’t know where it comes from.
For me, it does not matter who loves whom of what sex. My God says it is an afront, I believe it. And although I may love my brother (an have an actual brother-in-law who is gay)
I will not condone marraige of same sex individuals should they so decide (but as one who loves God), it would not lessen my friendship or love for them. Each life will and must stand on its own merit in the end.
This is not a fight or argument for or against any lifestyle or belief, it is merely a societal observation.
Our world has become slovenly in its respect of one another and love of self has taken the place of love of God and ANY episode of Family Guy has the damn dog wanting to screw humans and the old man trying to get into the son’s pants!
Get over it. I would not want to live in a world where there was no God, or even the thought of a Supreme Being. If history proves anything at all, it is that we cannot control ourselves or our desires or motivations unles someone or something sets rules.
Wouldn’t it be better to have a God, whether you believe in Him It or Her setting them, instead of someone who had no moral compass to guide their direction?
As for the past wrongs and destructions at the hand of those professing to be for God, understand those were missguided people using religion to control, not enlighten.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:26 pmOutstandingInAPlagueOfLocusts Says:
——————————————————————————–
Normally I would try convince you folk that christians are not all the facist right wing holier than thou type, nut I think I’d rather spend the evening trying to figure out how to commit “female sedition”.
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I was wondering the same thing myself……..
June 6th, 2009 at 10:27 pmThen, those lucky Christians, their time must be near! (I hope my neighbor Raptures and leaves his wife behind)
June 6th, 2009 at 10:27 pmI’m still trying to figure out that one too.
I think it has something to do with that TV show, “Desperate Housewives”.
:\
But I can’t confirm that.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:27 pmReligion Is the cause of most wars and violence around the globe. Its hard to comprehend how people can worship a higher power that created everything and loves his creations. Then kill you if you dont believe in their god. Rightwingnuts you self rightious pieces of sht,you applaude the murder of a doctor. What about the fcking priests that molest children?
June 6th, 2009 at 10:28 pmGod,guns,money,foxnoise,orielly,hannity,limpdick,beck,coulter,and the likes.You are in the minority and that is a great thing for our country. Do these idiots ever ask themselves why their party is shrinking at a rapid pace? THANK GOD! I mean thank LIBERALS.
I’m no scholar, but it also said something about the world being created in 6 days. And that somehow the world is only 6,000 years old.
Additionally, I’d have to do some research, but there seemed to be some less than savory characters venerated in the Old Testament. And Adam and Eve were the first people, they had only two sons (one killed the other) and somehow they were able to eventually spawn over 6 billion people. Really?
I think if you are going to use the Bible as a guide, is it okay to pick and choose?
June 6th, 2009 at 10:28 pmYou’re in the wrong country Newt. On this, as with so many other matters of substance, you are hopefully out of your league.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:28 pm“you’re right. I jumped to the conclusion that you believed that the signers intended the U.S. to be a Christian nation.”
Oh.
I think they were religious yes but not dicks about it.
In fact more than one of them made it clear they didn’t think it was right to hate Jews or Muslims just because they were part of another religion.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:29 pmAs an agnostic with a singular and private spiritual life, I do not see a divine spark on the right—to the contrary.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:30 pm“Gingrich: Americans ‘surrounded by paganism.’”
lol Now that is the joke of the day for King Solomon Newt, Lord of adultery to preach that Americans are surrounded by paganism. What King Newt had excluded that the Americans are surrounded by pediphilers, rapists, perverts, thieves, war criminals, criminals that duck Congressional subpoenas and lie under oaths, and so on for 8 years thanks to the Sith Administation and the sin and the sinful Repub party.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:30 pmWhat gives you the idea that someone not believing in a deity means they have “no moral compass to guide their direction”?
I know lots of atheists who seem to have no problem knowing right from wrong.
And I know lots of religious people who wouldn’t know wrong if it landed on their head.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:31 pmTell that to the pre-revolution citizens of Salem, Massachusetts.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:33 pmI’m just posting this so people can see it.
http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?document=473
June 6th, 2009 at 10:34 pmIf there is a massive female uprising against the gov I didn’t get the memo.
writepro Says:
June 6th, 2009 at 10:34 pmI will not condone marraige of same sex individuals should they so decide (but as one who loves God), it would not lessen my friendship or love for them. Each life will and must stand on its own merit in the end.
*************************************************************
I don’t care what the bible says. The government has the responsibility to treat ALL of it’s citizens equally. PERIOD.
I was talking about the founding faithers wayne NOT the “pre-revolution citizens of Salem, Massachusetts.”
June 6th, 2009 at 10:35 pmI know this comment is petty, but does Newt remind anyone else of H.R puff-N-stuff?
June 6th, 2009 at 10:35 pmwritepro Says:
I am scared of nothing, my friends. I thank God for that. Come what may, I am secure and peaceful with the fact that God does indeed exist.
And then you go on to express what you are afraid of and justify why YOU need to take action on God’s behalf. Logically, if you were secure in God’s benevolence, you would not bother condemning all the things YOU don’t approve of.
I’m not trying to be cruel, or even make fun of you, I merely seek to inform you that, to a great number of people, you are just so incredibly wrong that it’s amazing and amusing.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:36 pmyes that should read “fathers”
June 6th, 2009 at 10:36 pmAmericasBack it hasn’t damaged Freeman Dyson in the slightest.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:39 pmcd:
We are mostly just arguing semantics. I used the word “irreligious” for a reason. “Those who are critical of, or indifferent to, religion”. A number of our Founding Fathers would fit that description.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:39 pmWell the same thing could be said about thousands of Catholic and Protestant Priests, but I don’t hear you decrying that.
And as for the dog wanting to screw humans, you should see my German Shepard when guests are over. Lets just say it’s best they wear long pants.
:|
I think the real problem here is your right wing neoconservative ideologies being mingled with religion.
And don’t try and deny it because I had you pegged for a while now.
Your “tell” as it were, is your morbid preoccupation with sex. Something that if you ever read the bible, you’d know was absent from Jesus’ entire 3 year ministry.
In fact, the one thing Jesus seemed to despise, was the self righteous people who always tried to get him to condemn sexual transgression.
He always pointed out that THEIR transgression, of spite, judgmental arrogance and pious hypocrisy was always the more weighty matter.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:39 pmIf not for religion science might have slowed down…. What about stem cell research? Religion ground that to a halt.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:40 pmcd said “How much farther advanced, as a people and as a world, would we be if there no religion?
Evil much as you might hate to admit it were it not for religion science might have slowed down.”
——————-
Maybe you’ve heard of Galileo?
June 6th, 2009 at 10:40 pmpete if that’s what irreligious means then even Jesus was irreligious.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:42 pmIs there proof that god exists? How about the virgin mary?
June 6th, 2009 at 10:42 pmwritepro, you are deluding yourself. Athiests do not believe in god or good or evil. That is what being an athiest is. What about that is so difficult for you Christians to understand?
June 6th, 2009 at 10:43 pmarkie maybe you haven’t noticed but it’s up and running again.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:43 pmModerate I have not only heard of him but of Gregor Mendel.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:44 pmarkie Says:
If there is a massive female uprising against the gov I didn’t get the memo.
Sorry, arkie, we have to pass our secret messages on the backs of abortion clinic literature now, lest the wingnuts hear of our plans. I’ll make sure you hear about the next meeting.
arkie Says:
I don’t care what the bible says. The government has the responsibility to treat ALL of it’s citizens equally. PERIOD.
PERIOD indeed. Equal protection under the law.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:44 pmNo! It would not be better to “have a God”. If there is a God? He did a really sh!tty job and I want Him fired. I’ll take my chances with the stupid things we humans do but, I don’t want anything to do with a Supreme Being who, as George Carlin said, “… can create the entire Universe and everything in it in six days but? He can’t handle money. He’s always asking for our money. God needs our money“.
I can’t say it any better than George. I want no part of a Supreme Being who can’t even balance His checkbook.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:44 pmwritepro. you’ve got a point that people have difficulty controlling themselves.
Maybe religion helps in that area.
But, what many religious fail to see is the detrimental role that religion plays in that it absolves people of the responsibility of their actions.
If someone has an overriding belief that there is a God that controls their destiny or predetermines their fate, they are less likely to question their own actions.
War mongers, adulterers and profiteers can all assuage their guilt by skipping the responsibility and handing it over to the almighty (along with 10 percent).
June 6th, 2009 at 10:44 pmAnd Rush The Big Fat Idiot said ‘it’s giving people false hope for cures that aren’t gonna come from stem cells’ or something to that effect. I’m sorry Rush I didn’t realize your job title was The Big Fat Idiot/Independent Doctor. Thanks for clearing things up.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:44 pmLimbaugh is a waste of air-space.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:47 pmconservatives would call him a socialist if he were here right now.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:48 pmGod, the Real God left a set of rules; i.e., “Laws” to live by and Christ ratified them by making Loving God the first, then one another.
He did not mean that literally.
Man without God’s Law would, left to their own devious minds destroy themselves unceasingly in every pleasurable coniving deceitful way possible.
Given how self deluded people have become in this day and age (blogojavich prine example),
Anything you want to believe is right could be right and what ever you think is wrong would be. Whose to say, but you. There is no one to set the standard.
If God does not exist, who sets the rule? What is the rule. Why have one anyway? Anything would go right?
And who would care?
June 6th, 2009 at 10:49 pmUhh yeah I did hear. I was referring to Bush’s church and state homogenization.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:49 pm“conservatives would call him a socialist if he were here right now.”
People like Cheney would call for his torture.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:50 pmIn my opinion, religion is for people who cant think for themselves and have no direction.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:50 pm“conservatives would call him a socialist if he were here right now.”
Republicans like Cheney would call for his torture.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:51 pmReligious people do that. Anything and everything is justified in the name of some mythical being in the sky.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:53 pmIf Jesus were amongst us today, can you imagine how angry he would be that after 2000 years we are still torturing people?
I may be going out on a limb here, but after you are tortured to death, you would be against torture, right?
June 6th, 2009 at 10:53 pmOutstandingInAPlagueOfLocusts Says:
June 6th, 2009 at 10:54 pmSorry, arkie, we have to pass our secret messages on the backs of abortion clinic literature now, lest the wingnuts hear of our plans. I’ll make sure you hear about the next meeting.
**************************************************************
I would greatly appreciate it!!
And now for a list of Christians than most here should aprove of:
Rev. Bill Moyers
June 6th, 2009 at 10:56 pmMother Jones
Frank Ford founder of Arrowhead Mills
Rev. Will D. Campbell
Millard Fuller fouder of habitat for humanity.
Will Durant
Burns Strider
Frances Willard
Martin Luther King
Martha Sharp Righteous Among the Nations.
Rosemary Reuther
Asa Gray
Fred Rogers
Reinhold Niebuhr…
Really?
Ever met a Chinese person? Are they known to destroying themselves with hedonism and ‘ever pleasurable conniving deceitful way”?
The Chinese had state ordained atheism and yet the Chinese people seem to be cultured, restrained and even refined by most American standards.
:|
What’s that do to your theory?
June 6th, 2009 at 10:56 pmIs there proof that god exists? Its faith right? I have faith that the mets,jets,and islanders are going to win the championship someday soon. Every year there is proof that their not. Peoples religous beliefs are causing so many problems and death around the globe.Enough!
June 6th, 2009 at 10:56 pm#379 – “I may be going out on a limb here, but after you are tortured to death, you would be against torture, right?”
_____________________________________________
Dammit, Levi, I really I’d said that. Amen…
June 6th, 2009 at 10:56 pmLimbaugh is a waste of flesh!!!
June 6th, 2009 at 10:56 pmcd:
Jesus, assuming He ever existed as a single entity called Jesus of Nazareth, was most definitely irreligious. My problem has never been with Jesus or the ideas attributed to Him.
My problem is with the billions of people who have conspired to turn His message into something that benefits them. And no one else.
To anyone who has ever admired the message of the Gospels? It’s obscene the way Modern American Evangelicals are using Him as an agent of intolerance. And it’s doubly obscene to discount the tremendous accomplishments of our society as the whims of some god, ghost, specter, hobgoblin, djinn, or other mythical being.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:57 pmJesus would be incredibly angry with every Christian that even for one moment supported the use of torture. Can you imagine a religion in your honor who’s followers learned nothing from your death.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:57 pmIf you’ll pardon the expression, Amen to that.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:58 pmWhat will happen is everyone will make decisions that is best for their lives and stop meddling in the affairs of other people. Conflict starts when people can’t mind their own business.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:58 pmWAYNEBRO you aren’t seriously saying that depriving people of religious freedom is a good thing are you?
June 6th, 2009 at 10:59 pmwritepro Says:
God, the Real God left a set of rules;
He did, and when mankind proved that we don’t really handle laws well, God realized we had missed the entire point. So He intervened in the person of Jesus Christ. his words reduced “law” to two basic principle, love God, love your fellow man. Clearly God is tring to tell us the petty concerns with the behaviour of others is petty. Clearly he wants us to acknowledge the beauty and dignity of every person He created.
June 6th, 2009 at 10:59 pmName one teabag rupug who can go toe-to-toe with ANYONE from President Obama administration?
NOTHING
It’s only natural for these repugs to used religion, for their wicked advantage. Reason being they have NOTHING.
This is perfect for them. Perfect for idiots.
“Thou shall not use thy name in vain.”
I have to agree with Bill Maher on this one. The above commandment doesn’t me using his name while cussing . It means don’t use/invoke God’s name for selfish reasons. Exactly what the repug are doing shamelessly.
Deep.
June 6th, 2009 at 11:00 pmwritepro Says:
Man without God’s Law would, left to their own devious minds destroy themselves unceasingly in every pleasurable coniving deceitful way possible.
**********************************************************
I assure you I have never ONCE destroyed myself in a pleasurable, conniving, and deceitful way.
June 6th, 2009 at 11:00 pm#368,Pete fcking a right!
June 6th, 2009 at 11:01 pmwritepro Says:
Man without God’s Law would, left to their own devious minds destroy themselves unceasingly in every pleasurable coniving deceitful way possible.
Man has done all those things with “God’s Law”. The fact is that most people live in harmony with their neighbors despite God’s Law. And, a few people with violent, greedy, natures prey on their neighbors.
But do you want to know the real kicker? Countries that are less religious than the United States almost all have lower crime rates than we do.
June 6th, 2009 at 11:03 pmPete most of what you said at 386 I agree with.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytNoiQ8LkS8
June 6th, 2009 at 11:03 pmWhere exactly did I say that?
June 6th, 2009 at 11:05 pmUnderstandably, the idea of fighting for a Godly cause has insprired many a tragic outcome throughout history, as it does in the present war that entangles our country as we debate reality.
Believing in God and that one can be forgiven, does not absolve one of any guilt associated with wrong doing, and each person with or without belief is still accountable for their own actions.
Those who believe that God is the reason behind the wrong that men do is as deluded in my mind as one who believes in nothing.
God is excuse, not he reason.
June 6th, 2009 at 11:06 pmNo, but I’ve tried.
June 6th, 2009 at 11:07 pmarkie Says:
I assure you I have never ONCE destroyed myself in a pleasurable, conniving, and deceitful way.
That’s ok, we’ll practice doing so at the next female sedition meeting.
June 6th, 2009 at 11:07 pmHere are some more Christian leaders to consider:
Jim Wallis
June 6th, 2009 at 11:07 pmJim Winkler
Archbishop Demetrios
J. Regina Hyland
Tom Chappell
Bishop Carlton Pearson
Bishop Charles E. Blake
Helen Prejean
Thomas Merton
Keith Akers
Tony Campolo
Neil Patrick Carrick
John Dear nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize for 2008 by Archbishop Desmond TuTu
Robert Drinan
Reverend Lucia Guzman
Rev. Hunter
Rev Joseph Lowery
Jimmy Carter
Rev. Joseph Simmons of Run DMC
Hugh Ross
Rev. Stanley Hauerwas
Sister Dorothy Hennessey
C. T. Vivian
Gordon Zahn founded Pax Christi
Rev. Al Green
John Warwick Montgomery
Stanley Jaki
Helen Prejean
Sister Catherine Pinkerton
Levi the Dungbeetle Says:
If Jesus were amongst us today, can you imagine how angry he would be that after 2000 years we are still torturing people?
I may be going out on a limb here, but after you are tortured to death, you would be against torture, right?
June 6th, 2009 at 11:08 pm**************************************************************
HILARIOUS!!!!!!!!!!! I laughed, I cried. I laughed until I peed and then I laughed at that.
“The Chinese had state ordained atheism and yet the Chinese people seem to be cultured, restrained and even refined by most American standards.”
June 6th, 2009 at 11:11 pmOutstandingInAPlagueOfLocusts Says
That’s ok, we’ll practice doing so at the next female sedition meeting.
***********************************************************
This female sedition stuff is just sounding better and better…….
June 6th, 2009 at 11:11 pmWe are living in a period where we are surrounded by paganism.
“”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”
Considering the years under Cheney/Bush, I may have to agree with the Republicans on this one. The Bush administration was godless and was not guided by true Christian principles.
Rock Church demonstrated a moral lapse having these men speak at their church.
June 6th, 2009 at 11:11 pmSorry to re-post from another thread, but I thnk this Trolling Stones song sums it up.
You’re the kind of person you meet at certain dismal dull affairs.
Center of a crowd, talking much too loud running up and down the stairs.
Well, it seems to me that you have seen too much in too few years.
And though you’ve tried you just can’t hide your eyes are edged with tears.
You better stop, look around, here it comes, here it comes, here it comes,
Here it comes. Here comes your nine-teenth nervous breakdown.
When you were a child you were treated kind
But you were never brought up right.
You were always spoiled with a thousand toys but still you cried all night.
Your mother who neglected you owes a million dollars tax.
And your father’s still perfecting ways of making sealing wax.
You better stop, look around, here it comes, here it comes, here it comes,
June 6th, 2009 at 11:12 pmHere it comes. Here comes your nine-teenth nervous breakdown.
Trust me state atheism is cruel as any theocracy.
June 6th, 2009 at 11:12 pmNo wonder writepro is so messed up. He thinks God’s an “excuse”.
June 6th, 2009 at 11:12 pm“Considering the years under Cheney/Bush, I may have to agree with the Republicans on this one. The Bush administration was godless and was not guided by true Christian principles.”
I’ve heard the church Cheney claims to be a member of can’t find any record of his having joined.
June 6th, 2009 at 11:13 pmThe idea that humans without “God’s Law” have no capacity for moral behavior is absurd to the point of being laughable.
Moral behavior is simply the acceptance of a social compact that recognizes the utility of behaving toward others with justice. It is necessary for commerce, for common defense and for any kind of communal living.
The fact that humans across all cultures tend to invest this moral behavior in a God figure simply shows the commonality of human spiritual needs.
The moral behavior of the vast majority of atheists disproves the idea that writepro is trying to use to sell his vision of a “Christian nation”.
June 6th, 2009 at 11:14 pmSure it is. Which is why you keep religion, or the lack thereof OUT of the state.
:|
Why is that concept so hard to grasp?
June 6th, 2009 at 11:14 pmIt’s been fun folks but I’ve got to eat.
Bye.
8)
June 6th, 2009 at 11:14 pmThat’s because he ate them.
:\
It’s that whole spy, clandestine thingy…
June 6th, 2009 at 11:14 pmYou do know that life sucked in the USSR and for many it sucks living in Totalitarian China right? — CD
******************************************************
With all due respect, CD, you’re making the same unwarranted assumption that many other conservatives do — that correlation automatically implies causation and that the appearance of a relationship between two variables proves the existence of a relationship. Speaking as someone who has studied statistics and been taught how to conduct scientific research, I can vouch for the fact that this is most emphatically not true.
Yes, there’s no question that life for many people in the former Soviet Union “sucked” — but no matter how much you might want to think and how hard you try to claim otherwise, this was not necessarily (possibly not even remotely) attributable to the fact that it was at least officially an atheistic society. As ElBruce very wisely commented earlier on this thread, people throughout history have — mostly unconsciously, one hopes — manipulated and cherry-picked all kinds of political and/or religious belief systems in order to excuse and justify their own unethical behavior, and the Soviet Union was no different. The fact is that a good many of the political and/or religious systems developed by man would work almost equally well in terms of addressing the needs of the people subject to them — if they were practiced perfectly. Therein lies the rub, however. As one of my favorite quotes states, “there is no difference in theory between theory and practice — but in practice, there is.” The failure of a political or religious belief system is often not the fault of the system itself as such, but rather of the people who were attempting (or claimed to be attempting) to put it into practice. The problem with this is that human civilization is for the most part little more than a veneer — to all appearances, human beings are by nature largely amoral and inclined to do whatever they have reason to believe they can get away with in the pursuit of their own gratification. Take a course in social psychology sometime…it’s a real eye-opener, if not in a positive sense.
June 6th, 2009 at 11:14 pmcd Says:
Trust me state atheism is cruel as any theocracy.
Who the Hell said anything about “state atheism” or, for that matter, asserted any such thing exists?
June 6th, 2009 at 11:15 pmEh, yeah, if you call colonized slaver cultured.
http://english.epochtimes.com/news/4-12-28/25242.html
June 6th, 2009 at 11:16 pmWhy is it always the “good Christians” who are convinced that humans need a mythical Daddy figure to make them behave? I’ve never been a Believer and I’ve never had any desire to do all the awful things that are attributed to “godless” people.
I can’t help but think that religion either attracts or creates sociopaths of the most vile nature.
June 6th, 2009 at 11:20 pmcd Says:
I’ve heard the church Cheney claims to be a member of can’t find any record of his having joined.
When his two sizes too small heart gives out, I doubt St.Peter will find him in his record book either.
June 6th, 2009 at 11:21 pmBeware the politician
June 6th, 2009 at 11:23 pmSpouting Godly things
The Chinese had state ordained atheism
No. They didn’t. They were a communist country and the government squashed competing ideologies. Communism is not synonymous with atheism.
June 6th, 2009 at 11:25 pmIt doesnt matter what country you live in or how you were brought up. If you believe in a god thats your business. The fact remains religon is a major cause of most conflicts around the globe. I know that we all have witnessed death. When young people die a tragic death people that believe in god always say that god brought that person home because he/she has plans for them.Their in a better place, Bullsht.If that was the case then your god would believe in abortion,he/she would just keep them home now instead of sending them out into our cruel world. Right conservatives?
June 6th, 2009 at 11:26 pmThis world would be in a much better place if religon didnt fck everything up.
Well I did when I was speaking about State imposed atheism in China and the former USSR. It’s also existed many other places.
He of course twisted my comments with his question to try and imply that I was implying that it was a “good thing”.
When in fact I was merely pointing out that religion or the lack thereof is not a valid factor for determining the quality of the individual or their capability to judge right from wrong.
June 6th, 2009 at 11:27 pmLet me emphasize that.
Communism is not synonymous with atheism.
June 6th, 2009 at 11:28 pmReligion
June 6th, 2009 at 11:28 pmI will comment in a moment but my Jaw dropped….WOW! BRB
June 6th, 2009 at 11:29 pmYou need to do your homework.
State atheism WAS imposed in China and it also was imposed in the former USSR, Albania and Mongolia.
You’ve never heard of Marx, Enver Hoxha? Stalin?
June 6th, 2009 at 11:31 pm
“If there were no God, Man could not control himself”
It has been proven time and time again. Whether God exist or not, we as a race of human on this planet need a diety to keep our fragile souls in common sync.
Atheist say because they believe in no God that they are still moral and ethical… only because the mold was set long ago. Had there been none, no one would have any rules what so ever, but what they thought of at the time of action contemplated.
But all this is rhetorical, and I am getting tired.
Want to talk to me more on this, come on my radio show Monday, Wednesday and Friday on blogtalkradio.com
SPRINGFIELD CITY BEAT 1080 INTERNET RADIO
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and we’l talk it out.
Se ya on the radio!
June 6th, 2009 at 11:35 pmIs there anything easier to feign than piety?
When I was a nanny for a child with reactive attachment disorder we let her go to a moderate Sunday school a few times to give ourselves a break, then stopped when we saw her developing a nauseating little act. I don’t think she could manipulate Jesus with that act, because he’d be looking at the fruits. But she surely would have gotten a lot of encouragement from the adults at the church, who would have been rewarding declarations and pious gestures without having to deal with her real-world manifestations.
From my experience in evangelical churches as a child, I am convinced that they are playgrounds for sociopaths.
June 6th, 2009 at 11:36 pm“The Christian God is a being of terrific character — cruel, vindictive, capricious, and unjust.”
[Thomas Jefferson]
Cruel, Vindictive, Capricious and Unjust are the qualities shared by Newt Gingrich and Scott Roeder.
America is a citizen of the world and that therefore makes us all citizens of the world.
June 6th, 2009 at 11:39 pmI’ve done plenty of homework. Marxist doctrine has a policy of forbidding religions, not to mention anyone else who might kick up a fuss. However, there has never been “state atheism” because there’s never been an “atheist state” any more than there’s ever been an “anarchist state”. The fact is that atheism is not at the root of any particular philosophy or belief.
June 6th, 2009 at 11:40 pmI suspect you have a very flabby idea of “proof” of this theorem.
In order for the statement to be proved, one would have to demonstrate that man without a theistic belief system is incapable of “controlling himself”.
The fact that so many athetists live so harmoniously in society with the rest of us — to the point that they are impossible to tell apart at a glance — is pretty conclusive proof of the falsity of your claim.
June 6th, 2009 at 11:42 pmApparently not Pete. You just got through claiming their was no such thing as “State Atheism” and you denied it was ever imposed in China.
What we see from the debate between the religionist “writepro” and the atheist, Pete, is that both allow their belief systems to blind them to the realities of the crimes committed in the name of their belief systems.
Pete just got through insisting that State Atheism was NEVER imposed in China, which most high school students know is false. He also implied there was “no such thing” as state atheism. Which proves his fundamental attitude towards his belief system, is equally as blinding as the fundamental attitude of the religionist.
That’s why BOTH have no business being mingled with government.
June 6th, 2009 at 11:42 pmYes.
He cut out all the portions of the Gospels into a little ~50 pg book, and called it “The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth”. Basically, what it boiled down to was the actual teachings on morality attributed to Yeshua, aka Jesus, and the rest of it was tossed out as so much trash.
Jefferson, like Washington and Benjamin Franklin, were Deists. They believed that EVERYTHING you need to know about religious truth can be discovered through observations of the real, natural world, and through the process of actual, hard-earned and discovery supported by evidence, reason, and logic. Not through dogma, zealous rhetoric, and baseless conjecture.
He also believed that demagogues and tyrants would periodically come to try to pervert the concept of America, and that the tree of liberty would need to be periodically fed with the blood of those men, and the patriots who paid the ultimate price to defeat them. He predicted such bloodshed would come approximately every 20 years. Suffice it to say, the champions of tyranny and demagoguery have had free reign to undermine the foundation of this great country for far, far too long now.
I fear Jefferson’s prediction of bloodshed, which has come to our soil from time to time, is going to come to fruition once more due to a lack of diligence, and subtle perversion of We the People via successful propaganda machinery, long-term destruction of the foundations of an educated citizenry, and monetary control over government by a mere handful of the populace. The latter was a fear Lincoln, too, shared. Corporate control of government was his greatest fear as far as the future fallout to come after the Civil War. We’ve yet to free ourselves from their heinous grip since that troubled time in our Republic. :(
June 6th, 2009 at 11:43 pmI suspicion that this writepro character come on here stirring the pot to get folks riled up so they will come on his radio show and boost ratings with a hot left wing vs right wing chat.
June 6th, 2009 at 11:44 pmWell, shucks, I didn’t realize those things about America. I don’t measure up. I’m so ashamed.
I wish I could be like Newt. He is so Christ-like; his lying, cheating, and racism are a beacon of goodness to which all of us should look in times of struggle.
Oliver North, wow, I get a lump in my throat when I think of that fine Christian. His tireless efforts to support illegal operations in Nicaragua, including intentional allowance of drug-smuggling into the United States to fund those operations, just make me feel born-again when I think about them.
June 6th, 2009 at 11:44 pmIsn`t the Newtster a recent convert to Catholicism, which to me is the most pagan of all Christian sects, or is it just being an adulterer and thrice divorced and a hypocrite make us all sick and disgusted with the marginalized Reich wing nut jobs.
June 6th, 2009 at 11:45 pmBingo.
June 6th, 2009 at 11:46 pmWritepro, on your radio show tell mary i want her hymen.
June 6th, 2009 at 11:48 pmgoodnight all.
We’ve been through this over thousands of posts, BART. Communism is a belief system and atheism is not. Mao, Lenin, Stalin, etc impose communism, not atheism. I really don’t care if you see what I’m trying to say. Frankly, my comments aren’t for your benefit. I’m long past trying to convince you but I will not allow falsehoods to go unchallenged in a public forum.
June 6th, 2009 at 11:50 pmI’m not to worried about widespread persecution of liberals and moderates. Adults are in charge of the government, and liberals are not the uber-pacifist doormats that wing-nuts imagine them to be. They’re shocked—shocked I tell you—when liberals take their own side in an argument.
I don’t have a gun, but I do have an expert marksman ribbon, and in the case of civil war, I think the vast majority would overwhelm the religious radicals in short order. The killing of Dr. Tiller does not bode well, but I trust that appropriate agencies are taking appropriate action.
Most of the shrill madness we hear is the talk of the geriatric Fox viewers and teen-aged trolls.
June 6th, 2009 at 11:51 pmI read that God gave us free will. Seems to me that God wanted humans to be sovereign.
June 6th, 2009 at 11:54 pmWhether God exist or not, we as a race of human on this planet need a diety to keep our fragile souls in common sync.
Then we definitely don’t have a God. Because our fragile souls have never been in common sync. Or, at least, our fragile bodies have never been in sync. We humans seem to keep killing the bodies possessed by unsynchronized souls.
June 6th, 2009 at 11:59 pmcd Says: #293
And if it weren’t for the Dark Ages we’d be 500 years farther advanced than we are now.
June 7th, 2009 at 12:00 amTalk about tortured ligic. This reptile’s logic is as twisted as Arlen Specter’s magic bullet!
June 7th, 2009 at 12:03 amIs anyone else tempted to call the radio show whitepro linked? It might be fun.
June 7th, 2009 at 12:03 amMr. Evil Says:
cd Says: #293
And if it weren’t for the Dark Ages we’d be 500 years farther advanced than we are now.
And if it weren’t for the Bush Age we would have more green energy and other scientific advances.
June 7th, 2009 at 12:07 amWell “my falsehoods” are in the history books, the encyclopedia’s and all historical records on the topic.
Yours are not.
China DID impose state atheism, as Wiki clearly states.
But feel free to change Wiki, since you quote from it so often as a valid source of information.
We’ll see how long your revised versions of history stand.
Then when you’re done with Wiki, you can move onto ever college and university in this country and around the world.
Then you can go over to China, and tell THEM they “never had state atheism”.
See how far that gets you slick.
June 7th, 2009 at 12:07 amWritepro is prob Newt or Rush in disguise. It’s a trap. DON’T TRUST IT!!!!!!!! lol j/k
June 7th, 2009 at 12:07 amwritepro Says:
sesli springfield chat
June 7th, 2009 at 12:07 amsorbet radio show
chat,
Thanx
I think conservatives on the whole are suffering enormously from cognitive dissonance brought about by intense regimens of specifically-targeted propaganda.
If push comes to shove, there are an awful lot of folks on the middle and left who are or were in the military. Moreover, if an individual has served on active duty on the battlefield, they are more likely, in modern times, to be a Democrat.
Yes, of course some aren’t, and officers are often much more separated from the day to day realities of war, and thus lean slightly more to the right. However, by and large, those who has seen combat tend to come back and support the side that stands for peace, whichever party that happens to be at the moment.
At this moment, that is the Democratic Party. Ergo, the number of veterans who’ve seen combat duty who go into office not as a Republican, but as a Democrat. Thus, the woefully small number of veterans in office who are Republicans, and the dramatically high number of chickenhawks in the GOP.
Moreover, conservatives in general dramatically underestimate just how many liberals and moderates are willing to fight to the death, face to face. Or who will simply confront with words, reason and logic those they disagree with. As opposed to gutless displays of cowardice, shooting unarmed men in their places of worship when they know there is virtually no chance of being confronted by actual armed opposition until the deed is done, or bombings of buildings with innocents, and so on. The predilections are pretty stark in their revelations of the inner workings of the minds of each side. The rampant projection, lies, and false equivocation are likewise rather revealing.
June 7th, 2009 at 12:08 amWhat we see from you Pete, is that just like the religionist, when history doesn’t agree with your rose colored versions of it, you do just like the religionists, and simply rewrite it.
:|
When you can deny the collective history of the world on the topic in deference to your “fundamentalist atheism”, then clearly you’re no different from the religionists who do likewise.
June 7th, 2009 at 12:09 amThe falsehoods, BART, are your interpretations of my words which most others seem to understand.
You believe that atheism is a noun. I do not.
June 7th, 2009 at 12:15 amSo does Websters.
June 7th, 2009 at 12:16 amBut thanks for admitting it was your “belief”.
June 7th, 2009 at 12:17 ammerriam-webster.com
June 7th, 2009 at 12:20 amWAYNEBRO Says:
But thanks for admitting it was your “belief”.
Another very pathetic lie. If atheism isn’t a noun it sure as Hell ain’t a Belief, despite your protests. You continue to impose your definitions to the best explanations I can offer for my thoughts. I don’t know whether that’s a character flaw or faulty education but, it’s annoying as Hell.
June 7th, 2009 at 12:24 amHere is a simple question:
If the republican party’s only major demographic was witch doctors. would Newt be talking about how this country was a voodoo based government?
Yes. He has people research what people want to hear and then he says that. He has no real beliefs which is why he can say anything.
June 7th, 2009 at 12:25 amExcuse me. I should have said, if I’m not using “atheism” as a noun.
June 7th, 2009 at 12:26 amNonsense. That you cannot conceive that concepts as simple as altruism, a social contract, non-consensual activities crossing lines, et al, is indicative of a problem with your thought processes. It is not proof that Mankind needs the concept of deity in any way, shape or form to come to such conclusions.
Those activities that strengthen your fellow man strengthen you, your family, and your friends. They reduce anger, aggression, and fear, and increase happiness, peace, and prosperity. None of that requires deity. On the contrary, blind belief in deity often incites anger, aggression, and fear, as one’s fundamental system of belief is undermined in a way that threatens it in the minds of those with a vested interest in maintaining it else power be taken from them. A system founded primarily on the weight of cultural bias alone mind you, and ultimately nothing more than a massive “appeal to authority” logical fallacy.
It is the same reason that all of the natives of a given tribal group believe that sacrificing to the volcano god truly staves off eruptions. It is the same reason that Mankind believed the Earth was flat for many centuries after ancient Mankind accurately calculated the circumference of said Earth. Those beliefs and literally countless others, it is nothing more than the fact that one’s family, friends, neighbors, and previous generations, living or dead, that meets the standard of evidence for many. Rational thought, reason, evidence, et al, mean nothing in the face of the overwhelming weight of cultural bias.
Theism has had most of human history to bring forth one…ONE piece of evidence supporting its fundamental assertions, much less the specific, dogmatic assertions unique to each variety of theism. Not one has been provided. Not a single piece of such evidence. None. Nada. Zip. Zilch. With millions to billions of individuals looking for thousands of years.
Evidence of the workings of the natural universe, reality, all that is known to exist, comes forth each and every day. Repeatable evidence. Self-correcting, peer reviewed, falsifiable evidence, able to change to new information. Evidence anyone can review. Experiments anyone can duplicate given the time, resources and inclination. Daily. Yet, that immense weight of cultural bias continues to have enormous sway, simply because those given authority by simple virtue of their word, or the word of their forebears, or the word of one or more pieces of written work that in any other context would have no weight save potential philosophical weight, especially that of the variety known as sophistry, says so.
It is frightening that Mankind can be so swayed by fear so easily.
Yet, there it is. Clearly laid out, for all to see. Hiding in plain sight, so to speak. The massive elephant in the room that many refuse to even see, much less acknowledge.
It is like the inability to see the “fnords”, on a worldwide scale, with thousands of such words hiding in plain sight.
If only we as a species can get past this. Not past the teachings, not past even the beliefs. But past the fear, the need to impose those beliefs on others, and the inability to separate that which is known from that which is mere unsupported conjecture and philosophical games.
June 7th, 2009 at 12:33 amIt wasn’t MY definition.
I am not the dictionary.
Take it up with Merriam-Webster if you don’t like the English language.
June 7th, 2009 at 12:34 amI think if there was a god he could easily prove to atheists he exists. Although its next to impossible for an atheist to prove god doesn’t exist. I guess more people err on the side of caution. If the hell mythology wasn’t intertwined in children’s religious teachers from day 1 I doubt religion would hold on for too long. I’d Imagine they get a lot of recruits out of sheer fear of the unknown. Its a little gimmicky but if it works why change it?
June 7th, 2009 at 12:37 amJimmy Big Bucks Says:
The USA is a christian nation, you cannot deny this. Our constitution, laws, moral code and ethics are all based on the CHRISTIAN BIBLE.
ROTFFLMAO!!!!!!
Article VI
All debts contracted and engagements entered into, before the adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.
This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.articlevi.html
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.billofrights.html
Now please find anywhere in the Constitution where “God”, “Christianity” or the Bible is ever mentioned in the Constitution. You can’t. Now go cry to your mommy that you been verbally assaulted by intelligent minds little teabagger.
June 7th, 2009 at 12:43 amAnd what’s pathetic Pete, is seeing that when history does not coincide with your beliefs, like the fundamental religionists you simply “REWRITE IT”, to suit your “personal thoughts”.
You claimed state atheism wasn’t imposed and even scoffed at the notion of such a thing.
You claimed China never imposed it.
Yet the historical facts, say otherwise.
So we see, it’s not you arguing with me.
It’s you arguing with historical facts.
:|
Just like you argue with the dictionary.
June 7th, 2009 at 12:45 amYikes!
The Bible says using Grey Poupon is a sin.
It’s true. Ask a teabagger repug.
June 7th, 2009 at 12:46 amWatching you mangle history Pete, and the rules of the English language to defend your own views on atheism is no different than watching a fundamental Christian mangle human history to fit their views on creationism.
Once a person succumbs to a belief system, then the science books, the history books, even the dictionary, all get tossed out the window, to support their own personal beliefs.
As you’ve so willingly demonstrated here this evening.
June 7th, 2009 at 12:52 amI’ll say this much…after reading through this thread, I’m beginning to understand why people used to say that religion is one of those subjects which a person should never bring up in conversation! Except for politics — which, of course, was said to be one of the other subjects a person should never bring up in conversation — I don’t know there’s any subject on which most people are less likely to “agree to disagree”.
Why can’t we just leave each other alone, for pity’s sake??? Why do so many of us have to insist that we’re right and therefore everyone else must be wrong — that is, apart from overweening ego?
June 7th, 2009 at 12:52 amNewt is doing something that is very cleaver, its called a wedge issue. He saying something that he knows with divide the country, and he appeals to one side. divide and conquer. How does it feel right wing to be “conquered” by a fat ugly white guy with a tiny face?
June 7th, 2009 at 12:56 amYes indeed, BART. All those countries did all those things. They oppressed religion and imposed communism. Communist dogma requires a rejection of religious dogma because two dogmas can’t coexist according to Marx’s theories.
June 7th, 2009 at 12:57 ampete, thats a nice concise statement@468, and it makes your point logically. Next step for the reds is to call you schoolyard names. wait for it.
June 7th, 2009 at 1:00 amWhat Pete says;
And what History teaches us;
So we see, like the fundamental religionist, the fundamental atheist never lets the facts get in the way of his own personal beliefs.
June 7th, 2009 at 1:00 amwouldn’t fear of going to Hell influence your choices? therefore the only way to have free will is to be free of fear. If gods only propose is to incite fear and death, wouldn’t the only way to have free will is to be an atheist. Kinda paradoxical.
June 7th, 2009 at 1:02 amBut, the thing is, BART, I wouldn’t bother to engage with you if you didn’t persistently miss-attribute thoughts to me, and others, despite every effort to explain our positions.
I tried to explain my comments, within my limited command of the English language, and yet you insist on imposing your own interpretations of what I’ve said.
June 7th, 2009 at 1:06 amWB
I think that just proves state atheist doesn’t work. Its like prohibition, you can outlaw but people gotta drink. You can outlaw god but you can’t just get rid of the addiction by killing a few priests. Stalin would need years of a hardcore religious rehab program. like TA, theists anonymous.
June 7th, 2009 at 1:08 amWatch it! Waynebro will accuse the atheists and agnostics of “bigotry” sufficient to start shoveling people into ovens if you aren’t careful.
June 7th, 2009 at 1:09 amBart trying to pick a fight again? You’re pushing pretty hard bart old buddy. I know you have a grudge against pete but what do you hope to accomplish?
June 7th, 2009 at 1:11 amNo, I insist on imposing the DICTIONARY’s interpretations, and the ENCYCLOPEDIAS interpretations, on what you’ve said.
You claimed State Atheism didn’t exist in China and scoffed at the very existence of it at all.
Then you claimed the word Atheism wasn’t even a noun.
Both two answers that would get you booted out of any college or university in the country.
I can’t help it if the facts don’t coincide with your statements, but they don’t.
Atheism is a belief system. The dictionary tells us so.
State Atheism is a reality. The history books tell us so (as do the bodies of those murdered under its rule).
The fact that you have an axe to grind about atheism being superior to all other belief systems differentiates you in no way from the religionist.
In fact, it parallels you to him.
Watching you mangle the English language to suit your “beliefs” and watching you rewrite history to suit your beliefs, is no different than watching a creationist mangle science and history to suit his beliefs on the creation of the earth.
June 7th, 2009 at 1:12 amAhh, the age old question of ‘is atheism a belief system’.
June 7th, 2009 at 1:13 amAgain.
I am certain that Crom is not pleased.
Forgive me, BART. I thought that you would remember my ideas on atheism and, perhaps, I took some liberties with the English language that reflect my own philosophies. I find it difficult to talk down to an audience I though was at a higher level.
I didn’t think It was necessary to explain to you, once again, that I (and a lot of other people) don’t consider atheism to be a “Belief” or even a noun. That’s my opinion and I will claim it at every turn.
And using your copy-paste skills to argue semantics, in an existential discussion, is frankly infantile.
June 7th, 2009 at 1:15 amthe doctrine or belief that there is no God
a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
Atheism, as an explicit position, can be either the affirmation of the nonexistence of gods, or the rejection of belief in deities. …
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
atheist – related to or characterized by or given to atheism; “atheist leanings”
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
atheistic – rejecting any belief in gods
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
The Atheist is written by, Irish born playwright, Ronan Noone. His previous plays include The Lepers of Baile Baiste (Critics Pick, Boston Globe …
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Atheist_(play)
Atheist are a technical death metal band from Florida, founded in 1984, whose music combined brutal riffs with subtle latin music arrangements and …
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheist_(band)
The Atheist is a horror comic book originally released in April 2005 and is published by Image Comics. …
Look! Atheism is nine things all at once! and all from the googles
…http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:atheism&ei=9UwrStqnIKj8tgO7sbToCg&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title
June 7th, 2009 at 1:15 amNo genius, if you could read you’d see the argument was over Petes denial of State imposed atheism, and whether or not atheism was a noun.
But as for the “age old question”, the only place its a “question” is in the mind of fundamental atheists.
The dictionaries all agree that it is.
Thus for those who speak English, (and any other language) there is no “age old question”.
All we have to do is open the dictionary.
June 7th, 2009 at 1:18 am______
AaronQ of Maine Says:
I think if there was a god he could easily prove to atheists he exists.
June 7th, 2009 at 12:37 am
______
Why should God feel the need to prove Himself to atheists?
June 7th, 2009 at 1:18 amOoh, ooh! This should be fun. I think I can last for another beer and now we can see BART whine about how we “all gang up” on him. I might not even bother to comment. I have popcorn.
June 7th, 2009 at 1:19 amThanks Bart, for admitting that I’m a genius! And how about them googles!
June 7th, 2009 at 1:19 amAnd is state imposed repression of religion an imposition of atheism?
June 7th, 2009 at 1:20 amWaynebro
The fact that you think semantics could get you kicked out of college CLEARLY proves you have never been to college. Also quoting the dictionary and encyclopedia makes you seem from an ancient time where people thought that encyclopedias were non biased. And finally long passages of quotes proves you can’t glean a point from lots of data(weak critical thinking skills). How bout you go play some sudoku and leave the thinking to someone else.
June 7th, 2009 at 1:22 amIs turning churches into museums an act of state imposed atheism?
June 7th, 2009 at 1:22 amhow come they didn’t require people to go to atheist services?
No what’s infantile is you denying state imposed atheism and the crimes committed thereunder, to push your rose colored views on atheism.
The fact is there is few differences to those of us not ascribing to any belief system between the atheists and the religionists.
You both rewrite history, the English language, the facts, etc to suit your own particular viewpoints.
June 7th, 2009 at 1:23 amCommunism imposes communism. It does not impose atheism.
If you don’t know what I mean? You’re not an atheist and/or haven’t paid any attention to what I was saying.
June 7th, 2009 at 1:23 amUniversity of Maryland, 1986.
And if you’d said anything so stupid as “Atheism is not a noun” in one of several courses I attended over the years, you’d have been LAUGHED out of the classroom no doubt.
And the fact that you can’t recognize a euphemism when you see one, shows you’ve never been to one yourself.
June 7th, 2009 at 1:24 amRUCeriousMaggot! Says:
And is state imposed repression of religion an imposition of atheism?
No.
June 7th, 2009 at 1:25 amNo, I’m not an atheist, I’m an agnostic, hence my absence of any need to rewrite history to suit my own fundamental beliefs.
June 7th, 2009 at 1:27 amIf you believe the bible or in god you would know that he performed miracles for just that reason.
The whole justification for the Christian religion is to bring people into the fold. How would you go about doing that if you were god. Hide and let them guess?
June 7th, 2009 at 1:28 amWhy should God feel the need to prove Himself to atheists?
Why would someone believe in god without any reason? no seriously. is it fear? lack of ever really thinking about it? misinterpreting coincidence as a miracle? because everyone else does? because the bible is so old it must be true? Because they been taught that since children? because the can just “feel” it?
Those are the reasons, if you can think of any more let me know. If someone doesn’t find any of those reasons sane why would they believe in god? they wouldn’t.
June 7th, 2009 at 1:29 amDon’t tell me. Tell Wikipedia.
June 7th, 2009 at 1:29 am
In fact, tell all the Russian priests who were slaughtered, or the descendants of those who lived under State imposed Atheism in the Soviet Union.
Especially one who still has a copy of the state magazine, called “Bezbozhnik” (which translates to “THE ATHEIST”).
Like I said, don’t argue with me.
:|
Get the historians to rewrite history to suit your beliefs.
June 7th, 2009 at 1:31 amnope, 1986 is like the stone age, they didn’t even have the internet. you are a sad old man. what did they teach you, to go to the library? hahaha. every book thats worth its paper is on the internet. so what if i missed a euphemism? You are a weak minded fool who can’t make a point. I’ll admit this post is mostly pointless, except to make myself feel better by making fun of you. ha haaa. also you can say mostly anything is class and no one says anything. maybe when you were in class you said extremely stupid things, kinda like you do now.
June 7th, 2009 at 1:35 amTell the people of Albania.
Tell a 6th grader, who’s read about Envar Hoxha, who in 1967 declared Albania “An ATHEIST STATE”.
June 7th, 2009 at 1:35 amWAYNEBRO Says:
I think you’re just making it up as you go now bartlebee.
When you say thinks like calling someone a pathetic liar to make your point or “like I said, don’t argue with me” you show just how little education you really do have.
This is an opinion forum. You don’t have all the answers so stop pretending that you do. It makes you look small, childlike.
June 7th, 2009 at 1:36 am______
Fred Says:
——————————————————————————–
upright left Says:
Why should God feel the need to prove Himself to atheists?
If you believe the bible or in god you would know that he performed miracles for just that reason.
The whole justification for the Christian religion is to bring people into the fold. How would you go about doing that if you were god. Hide and let them guess?
June 7th, 2009 at 1:28 am
______
Yeah, you’re right, fred. There’s no evidence or record of God. He should definitely be groveling for atheists to acknowledge His existence. His omniscience is no match for the modern day atheist. ;)
June 7th, 2009 at 1:37 amThat’s right junior. We had to actually read books back then.
Like every human being since the dawn of written language did.
:|
Don’t you have a tweety twit to send or something?
June 7th, 2009 at 1:38 amUhh, Fred, when you learn to actually write a sentence correctly, you might also try learning to read one.
I didn’t call him a pathetic liar.
He called me one, or more correctly, stated it was “another one of my pathetic lies”.
:|
Try reading before opening your big fat mouth next time.
Then you won’t look so stupid.
June 7th, 2009 at 1:40 amI’ve explained my position, BART. I’m sorry the English language isn’t up to the task.
Communism is a ideology/dogma/religion, atheism is not. I really wish there were a word that had not been corrupted, like realatheist, to explain my thoughts on the subject. Alas, I’m stuck with “atheist” and am resolved to establish a modern and rational definition for the word that rejects it’s misapplications in the past.
June 7th, 2009 at 1:41 amYou have to use it as a noun, that’s what the dictionary says. You just used it as an adjective…..
June 7th, 2009 at 1:42 amHere’s another interesting commonality between atheists and religionists.
They both have Choirs.
:|
In fact, I can hear the “Atheist Wingnut Chorale” warming up now.
June 7th, 2009 at 1:42 am:|
Amazing.
I mean simply amazing.
Uhh Fred, that is the definition of an Adjective.
:|
An adjective modifies a NOUN OR PRONOUN.
:|
I can’t believe the level of illiteracy one has to deal with in here.
June 7th, 2009 at 1:44 amAnd it was a pathetic lie, BART. You asserted I meant something I did not. I even explained myself to alleviate any confusion.
June 7th, 2009 at 1:45 amI mean, it’s like talking to a room full of chimpanzees.
:|
With keyboards.
June 7th, 2009 at 1:45 amGod obviously doesnt want to rule over us cause he isnt here ruling over us.
Its people that want to rule people and its why I, whether I believe in God, or not, never listen to other people telling me my soul needs to be saved and that I will burn in hades if I dont follow their belief.
June 7th, 2009 at 1:45 amRhf, (MizzJ, rhf has always been a nutcase. He’s just always been on our side, so he was tolerable. Now he’s a Clinton ass sucker, and he can’t contain himself against the “hopium” smokers. What an idiot.) How’s it going these days, bud? ;)
June 7th, 2009 at 1:46 amI miss the trolls that had something to say. or could at least put 2 and 2 together. The internet has books and you don’t have to spend all day looking for them. plus cross referencing in amazingly fast. If you can’t figure out how much better the internet is over a regular limited library, then you are even dumber than you look. you can’t just go to college for a few years 25 years ago and expect everything to be the same now. you are a joke of a troll, you are pointless, irrelevant, easily threatened and defensive. your blocks of quotes are lame the first time you cut and paste them, why would you think the third time would change anything? You think you’re smarter than everyone because you don’t understand what were talking about.
June 7th, 2009 at 1:46 amShit this place has gone to the dogs since I left.
Only one thing can save it now (other than porn).
A bunch of quotes recognition game.
Who wrote the folowing?
“I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our creator.”
“My views…are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others.”
“To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others.”
“But the greatest of all the reformers of the depraved religion of His own country, was Jesus of Nazareth.”
June 7th, 2009 at 1:50 amDon’t even bother anymore Pete.
You rewrote history to suit your needs.
Then when I showed you that STATE ATHEISM was a reality, (See Envar Hoxha genius, who declared Albania an ATHEIST STATE), you went on to change your tune like a little kid, saying effectively it wasn’t the “atheism you meant”.
Grow up.
June 7th, 2009 at 1:51 amWAYNEBRO Says:
I mean, it’s like talking to a room full of chimpanzees.
:|
With keyboards.
Here’s a banana to shove up your agnostic rectum, Bart.
June 7th, 2009 at 1:51 amDoh! BART uses “atheist” as an adjective.
Good night, good people.
June 7th, 2009 at 1:51 amYou, Newt, are not doing Gods work. You are doing what Newt wants because Newt wants power over other people. Newt wants to use God as a means to empower Newt.
Go Away Newt
June 7th, 2009 at 1:55 amcd, sounds like Jefferson…
June 7th, 2009 at 1:55 amAlbania an ATHEIST STATE!!!
Albania=noun
June 7th, 2009 at 1:55 amatheist=adjective
state=noun
Anyway now that the mental institution has let RHF out, with his all caps foaming at the mouth profane rants, mindless juvenile taunts and half witted illiteracy, the debates pretty much over.
You denied state atheism existed. You tried to claim it wasn’t state atheism, even though Envar Hoxha actually officially declared Albania an “ATHEIST STATE”, and the Soviet Union also called for it and even published the state magazine called “THE ATHEIST”.
You were wrong. Just admit it.
And you were wrong that atheism isn’t a noun, regardless of your “personal feelings” on the subject.
I deal in facts, not personal beliefs.
Which is why I became an agnostic.
Because an agnostic is at least mature enough to say those three simple words so elusive to you fundamental atheists, and the fundamental religionists.
Those three words?
“I don’t know”.
Try them on for size some time.
You’ll find them quite liberating.
June 7th, 2009 at 1:55 am:|
Really?
We’re back to moronsville again?
An adjective genius, ….modifies a NOUN or PRONOUN.
:|
Here I’m going to have to refer you back to Hooked on Phonics.
I hear it works wonders with the kids.
June 7th, 2009 at 1:56 amI think there is a good body of evidence that wayne or bart, is a mental midget with a napoleon complex. I miss taking about newt. waybart makes newt look so intelligent.
I think the point of this article is that newt is willing to flush american values down the tubes to get a few more votes from the christian nuts. Actually he is taking about the tiller murder, but he never directly comes out and says that he supports religious extremists, but they know what he means when he says “only in the United States does citizenship start with our creator”. so canadians are born in labs? this is a thinly veiled abortionist hate speech. He fooled me the first time a read it, but not the second time.
June 7th, 2009 at 1:59 amYou dimwit.
He was arguing it WASN’T a noun.
:|
But thanks for “helping him”.
June 7th, 2009 at 2:00 am______
republicans hate facts Says:
upright left Says:
Rhf, (MizzJ, rhf has always been a nutcase.
Says that *FREAK* that *SPEAKS FOR GOD* and thinks it’s a *MAN*… ;)
That’s just silly, hopium boy. Even you know that no one speaks for God.
upright left Says:
He’s just always been on our side, so he was tolerable. Now he’s a Clinton ass sucker, and he can’t contain himself against the “hopium” smokers. What an idiot.) How’s it going these days, bud? ;)
The GOP is down to 21%, it’s going *GREAT* for me. How’s it hanging for you, doctor killing BIBLE QUACK? ;)
Yeah, that must suck for the GOP. I’m pretty happy since my candidate won. It’s great that you’ve been able to move past the bitterness over your candidate’s loss. ;)
republicans hate facts Says:
So tell me upright left, did *GOD* put his pen!s in your ears to hear *his* message, or did your daddy do that to teach you RIGHT FROM WRONG? ;)
Very bad form, bud. You can’t let em see when they’ve struck a nerve. That lack of self control gets you every time. ;)
June 7th, 2009 at 2:01 amBut you said it was a noun, not a modifier. You were very specific and claimed for many posts that it was absolutley a nound and would have it no other way.
Now you want to “modify” what you meant. Convenient. Clumsy and pathetic but very convenient. I’ve heard the right do it many times.
I won’t argue specific issues with you ever again because you are just like talking to a troll.
June 7th, 2009 at 2:01 amNo moron.
The DICTIONARY lists it as a noun.
I simply quoted the dictionary.
Idiot.
:|
Like I told the atheist.
Take it up with Merriam-Webster.
June 7th, 2009 at 2:02 amBart, you must be bald from pulling out all the hairs you feel compelled to split.
June 7th, 2009 at 2:03 amLighten up dude.
Later.
Yes, BART. An adjective modifies a noun like a knife modifies cheese. However, a adjective is not a noun and a knife is not cheese.
June 7th, 2009 at 2:03 amA Fig Newton is a fig filled cookie.
A Fib Newton is a lie filled kook.
June 7th, 2009 at 2:04 amMERRIAM-WEBSTER ONLINE DICTIONARY
June 7th, 2009 at 2:05 amLike I said genius.
Take it up with WEBSTERS DICTIONARY.
:|
I’m sure they’ll change the rules of the English language, to support your “BELIEFS”.
June 7th, 2009 at 2:06 amMain Entry:
athe·ist Listen to the pronunciation of atheist
Pronunciation:
\??-th?-ist\
Function:
noun
Date:
1551
: one who believes that there is no deity
MERRIAM-WEBSTER ONLINE DICTIONARY
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atheist
June 7th, 2009 at 2:07 amBut it is not a noun as you stated previously. You could be wrong you know. I saw nothing in your dictionary listing that said it could be an adjective. Only a noun. Are you wrong?
They are two different mechanisms with seperate functions in the Enlish language. They are not the same thing.
June 7th, 2009 at 2:07 am:|
Morons.
I’m dealing with morons.
June 7th, 2009 at 2:09 amWayne you quote things without any idea what they mean. You just proved you’re not a very through thinker. And it poses the question: if everything you post is just cut and paste do you even know what you’re saying? seems like you just like to hear yourself click. I think you should think about something you actually want to say, and stop trying to prove that you weren’t wrong before, when you clearly were wrong. but hey if you’re so insecure that you can’t admit you’re wrong, then I’m glad we all are part of your therapy session.
June 7th, 2009 at 2:09 amBut merriam didn’t post it here and use it as a reference to prove she was right. You did and it turns out you didn’t research your point very well. Makes you look like what you call others….ie a moron.
Try again, we will wait. I’m sure somewhere in the same dictionary you can find where it can be used as an adjective also. Until you report we will now know how to correctly use the word.
June 7th, 2009 at 2:12 amThis is beyond bizarre.
I’ve got one idiot who thinks atheism isn’t a noun.
I’ve got another idiot who thinks he’s helping idiot number 1, but stating it IS a noun.
And I’ve got a third idiot who thinks because a noun can be USED as an adjective, that it isn’t a noun.
:|
And not one of these morons has bothered to simply look it up in the dictionary. Like I did.
June 7th, 2009 at 2:13 amBart, why do you go from a shovel to a backhoe for digging a hole for yourself? Why not just let it go……nevermind, I forgot who I was talking to.
Better question, when did you stop taking your meds?
June 7th, 2009 at 2:14 amApparently these illiterates don’t realize that nouns can often be used as adjectives, or even adverbs.
It’s how the English language works.
And what any of this has to do with anything, is even more elusive.
Because the fact is, Pete said that he thought that I “BELIEVED Atheism is a noun”, at which point I showed him so does the dictionary.
And now we have the moron brigade, arguing against themselves about whether its a noun or not.
:|
One would think they’d just look it up.
June 7th, 2009 at 2:16 amwow waybe, you really have nothing to say at all do you? DO YOU?!?
June 7th, 2009 at 2:16 amWho’s the idiot little fella. You used it to describe a nation….you used it that way. In that case, it is not a noun.
Stop playing dumb. You are not. You are just ocd or something.
Are you posting from a main get together room at the hospital or did they just decide to let you out for a while?
June 7th, 2009 at 2:17 amThe only shovel I’m digging with Fred, is the one I’m using to remove the bullshit consistently emanating from your keyboard.
I’m not even sure at this point you or that dog that followed you in here, RHF, knows what the hell you’re even arguing about.
All you’re doing is trying to find some way to insult me, and not even paying attention to the debate Pete and I were having.
June 7th, 2009 at 2:18 amfred I was thinking that exact same thing about the hospital! I was going to call it the community room.
June 7th, 2009 at 2:19 amI find it somewhat amusing that so many, including pagans, beliefs are based on on a great deluge caused by a deity.
June 7th, 2009 at 2:19 am
Honestly, WayneBro, you are lucid most of the time, and I even agree with most of your posts on other topics; but when you get on these tears over religion or failure to genuflect before the Holocaust in all circumstances, in which you insist that we’re all dangerous bigots incapable of rational thought, I suspect you’ve been drinking.
June 7th, 2009 at 2:19 amNo you f#$king moron, if you’d bother to READ before opening your big fat mouth, you’d see that PETE claimed the word was NOT a noun.
I showed him the dictionary, proving him wrong.
As it’s PRIMARY FUNCTION IS A NOUN.
Idiot.
I never said that a noun, like many nouns, could not be used as an adjective.
I merely corrected Pete, when he claimed the word was not a noun.
June 7th, 2009 at 2:19 ampete left when you admitted you didn’t know what you were talking about. You must’ve missed that. being the good reader and all.
June 7th, 2009 at 2:20 amGot any examples of a noun being used as an adverb bartlebee?
June 7th, 2009 at 2:20 amAnother idiot for the shitpile.
First, I don’t drink, as if it’s any of your business.
Second, this argument has NOTHING to do with religion, and is discussing STATE IMPOSED ATHEISM.
Third, I’m not a religious person, so why don’t you kiss my non religious ass and keep your nose out of debates you don’t have a clue about?
I don’t have time to bring another idiot who can’t read up to speed.
June 7th, 2009 at 2:21 amHey, yall better start getting along or a great big frog is going to swallow all the water on the earth and spit it out and drown the mess of ya.
June 7th, 2009 at 2:22 amlol, nouns as adverbs, good catch fred, Waybe is such an idiot!
June 7th, 2009 at 2:24 amAmazing that the guy who divorced his wife after having a fling, with someone else and while his wife was in the hospital due to cancer but still he is now trying to tell others how to live righteously. Plus, he is a hate monger. He would do better if he spent a bit of time fixing his own life instead of worrying about some moderate Republican who has different ideas about fairness and equity in this world. Our party has all these people with these sad and disgusting public behaviors still spending their time running down others. God help us when we act so self-righteous given our own behavior.
June 7th, 2009 at 2:25 amThis article is about abortion.
June 7th, 2009 at 2:25 amSure you illiterate twit.
Of course you could just look it up yourself.
Here, how about the one we’ve been using all night?
ATHEIST.
You know Fred, why don’t you just invest in a Hooked on Phonics course since you’re too stupid to look up words in the dictionary yourself?
June 7th, 2009 at 2:26 amYou got it little man. I joined this thread with you being arrogant, abusive, dictatorial, demanding, insulting in the old sick bartlebee style. I tried to joke you out of making an ass out of yourself again but as usual you were having nothing to do with reason.
Pete and others were going above and beyond in being reasonable with you and you shit on it time and time again.
Why do you think I would treat you any other way. I have no patience with people like you. You need to get off the computer and take your medicine and get some rest. That’s the best advice I can give you at this point.
June 7th, 2009 at 2:26 amAnother illiterate moron
Try reading a dictionary before attacking me again halfwit.
June 7th, 2009 at 2:29 amWAYNEBRO has history here. I personally know of two seperate incidents where he had a complete meltdown, one resulting in him getting banned for exactly what is going on here tonight.
The first one was after him and Pete got crossways.
June 7th, 2009 at 2:29 amI weigh a deuce and a half asswipe, and theres nothing little about me, except perhaps my patience for illiterate cocksuckers like you who jump onto a debate with no knowledge of the topic, no idea what’s being discussed, and only a desire to make trouble, insult and generally be ignorant and rude.
Next time you come at me, try knowing what the f#$k you’re talking about first. Then you won’t look like such a moron.
June 7th, 2009 at 2:31 amThe second incident went on for two days and bartlebee(Wayne)never left the thread. Regulars worked on him in shifts but he stayed for the duration. Many tried to reason with him and some poked him with a stick. It doesn’t matter what you try, it won’t work when he gets like this. He’s a sick individual who seriously needs help. I hope he gets it.
June 7th, 2009 at 2:33 amI think someone wants to bring the dictionary back in style but with a lot of extra attitude. Waybe You have nothing to say do you? you’re a joke. a flake, a poser, a legend in your own mind. seriously no one wants you here, You couldn’t come up with something to say about this article if you wanted to. just go away, go watch you favorite fox news and think that murder is OK as long as the victim is pre-approved by fox.
June 7th, 2009 at 2:33 amAnd once more you don’t know shit.
I’ve never been banned from here, I LEFT one time on my own accord because I got sick of idiots like you who come into debates, know NOTHING about what’s being discussed, and are too illiterate to even come up with a coherent argument.
You just made a fool of yourself by implying that a noun cannot be used as an adverb. Which any 3rd grader could have corrected you on.
And now, being made a fool of, you try smearing me more, with lies, weak vague bullshit from the past and general insults because you’re too stupid and too arrogant to just stay the hell out of debates you have no clue on.
June 7th, 2009 at 2:34 amGoodnight Wayne. Goodnight all. Best to let this just die in the night.
June 7th, 2009 at 2:35 am_____
AaronQ of Maine Says:
lol, nouns as adverbs, good catch fred, Waybe is such an idiot!
June 7th, 2009 at 2:24 am
______
Adverbial Noun
“Sometimes a noun is used as an adverb. This noun is called an adverbial noun.”
June 7th, 2009 at 2:35 amhttp://utminers.utep.edu/ajkline/adjadv.htm
Oh i get, he is OCD. wow, now I feel bad for him. he can’t help himself. I guess I’ll go to bed. I feel bad about harassing the mentally retarded.
June 7th, 2009 at 2:36 amupright left Says:
_____
AaronQ of Maine Says:
lol, nouns as adverbs, good catch fred, Waybe is such an idiot!
I was laughing, waybe is an idiot. but I’ll admit I was wrong about the law of seldom used words. I’d rather graph some statics.
But my point about newt using paganism as a metaphor for abortion is right on.
June 7th, 2009 at 2:41 amAztec: But before the flood began, Titlachahuan had warned the man Nota [sounds like Noah huh?] and his wife Nena, saying, ‘Make no more pulque, but hollow a great cypress, into which you shall enter the month Tozoztli. The waters shall near the sky.’
June 7th, 2009 at 2:42 amOooooh. Oooooh. I haven’t danced naked under the moon since…. well….. I never did–but I really want to. Will someone pleeeeze cut me in on the deal. Just give me a quick email so I know the address and time.
THANKS! I can’t wait.
June 7th, 2009 at 2:42 amBest would have been you not jumping on the pile to throw your ignorant insults and know nothing comments on.
That’s “best”.
But I’m a ok for letting this just “die” in the night.
I don’t even know why you got involved in the first place, and apparently, neither do you.
June 7th, 2009 at 2:44 amYea, I guess you seldom hear words like motion or motionlessly, huh?
:|
But “waybe’s” the idiot.
Right.
June 7th, 2009 at 2:49 am______
AaronQ of Maine Says:
——————————————————————————–
upright left Says:
_____
AaronQ of Maine Says:
lol, nouns as adverbs, good catch fred, Waybe is such an idiot!
I was laughing, waybe is an idiot. but I’ll admit I was wrong about the law of seldom used words. I’d rather graph some statics.
June 7th, 2009 at 2:41 am
______
“Sometimes a noun is used as an adverb. This noun is called an adverbial noun.”
We went home early.
(Home tells where.)
The fish weighed ten pounds.
(Ten pounds tells how much.)
The contest will end Friday.
(Friday tells when.)
http://utminers.utep.edu/ajkline/adjadv.htm
Yeah, that “law of seldom used words” is tough. ;)
June 7th, 2009 at 2:52 amUmm…one can be both an agnostic AND an atheist. Or an agnostic AND a theist. Those concepts are not mutually exclusive to one another. For example, my take: I am what is termed a “weak atheist”. That is, an atheist who is likewise somewhat agnostic in approach. That is to say, in the overwhelming LACK of evidence, it is my stance that the default should be, as it is in any other realm of life, logic, reason, et al, that one should not believe that for which no evidence exists to be the truth, reality, fact, and so on.
Since there is no evidence, none whatsoever, for any of the multitude of mono- and polytheistic deities conceived by mankind, that the default position of, “Therefore, there is no God(s)” is the most logical and reasonable stance.
Theistic agnostics, on the other hand, acknowledge that they, too, do not ultimately know that God exists, but that the correct stance, by simple virtue of so many believing, is that one should believe in God. Never mind the massive discrepancies even amongst a lone religion, much less when comparing disparate religions to one another. Never mind internal inconsistencies that would land most works of fiction in the “give me a break” bin. Never mind the documented political motivations for choosing specific texts over others. Never mind the express wishes of those later made the basis of a world religion specifically desiring no religion to be formed around them. Cultural bias, and an appeal to authority is sufficient to justify either a position of, “Yes, I agree”, or even, “I don’t know”, when that same level of evidence would be utterly crushed, inadmissible, or otherwise declared insufficient for one reason or another in any other part of life amongst our species.
Ergo, atheism is the logical choice, again, while still being utterly compatible with agnosticism. In the absence of extraordinary evidence (or in this case ANY verifiable, repeatable, or even sufficiently documented evidence that is unexplainable via simple observational, cultural, or some other form of cognitive bias, whatsoever), extraordinary claims by default should in fact be deemed incorrect.
The incorrect use of the term “agnostic” and “atheist” and corresponding implication of the term “atheist” is just pathetic. Anyone, of any persuasion, can be agnostic. One must simply acknowledge that they do not know for certain. That does not, however, mystically and magically create evidence out of whole cloth.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. However, not only has such evidence not materialized, but NO evidence, for thousands of years, searched for by upwards of billions of beings, has EVER materialized. Thus, by an extremely large margin, the stance that there is likely no God of any sort is by far the most supported with the knowledge Mankind possesses.
Everyone should really stop the ridiculous ad hominems, and quit throwing crap against the wall to see what sticks. I would say it’s unbelievable, but it isn’t. Cultural bias is so incredibly oppressive, and has so much weight and momentum, that it is incredibly difficult to slow down even a modicum of how much it NEEDS to be for Mankind to progress beyond this pettiness.
June 7th, 2009 at 2:57 amFred didn’t make much of a stand verses waybe, but who would want to? at that point Waybe was cutting a pasting out of the dictionary 15 times in a row.
Pete on the other hand made a good point a while back that waybe totally misinterpreted. Pete was saying that state atheism is not the same as separation of church and state. waybe concocted that to mean that pete said there was no such thing as state atheism. pete didn’t say that per se. The few tiny examples of “state atheism were short-lived and unpopular. kinda like lycos.
But somehow Waybe spend 2 hours arguing without ever making a point, other than trying to correct people’s grammar. WTH are you the grammar police? I bet you’re one of those righteous people that care more about how people say something without listening to what they’re really saying.
Just like this article, you think its about religion, when it is clearly about the republican base justifying murder as long as they demonize the victim first. religion is IN this article but its not absolutely about religion.
June 7th, 2009 at 3:00 amAnd here I thought progressives didn’t use politically incorrect words like “mentally retarded” anymore.
In fact I didn’t think “decent” people in general did.
As for harassing me, you’ve well said there. Because that’s all and the rest of the illiterate, crybaby chorale have tried doing here tonight.
Pete and I got into a small debate over whether or not STATE ATHEISM existed. Pete started out by claiming there was no such thing.
I corrected him, as any person knowing the history of countries like China, Albania, the Soviet Union, etc, would have done.
And in the process, we got into a very small side track discussion on whether or not atheism was a noun, he trying to wriggle out of his earlier comments on whether or not state imposed atheism existed. But nonetheless it was OUR debate, and a fairly civil one at that.
And then in came the dogs. One by one. Like you.
Piling on and one by one and not even knowing what they were arguing, and most like you trying just to get cheap shots in by trying to correct me on the English language.
And the irony was, not ONE of you turned out to be literate yourselves. Not one. You consistently challenged me on word usage and function, and I consistently humiliated you by simply posting the dictionary proving you wrong.
And each time you ignored that, and went on to the next. Well, in you’re case I’ll give you half a nod for your mealy mouthed Bill Oreilly like recant above.
Nonetheless you continue to arbitrarily elevate yourself and demote me to the realms of stupidity and mental and whatever other juvenile jibes your halfwit can produce, without ever examining the fact that everything I said tonight was backed up by the dictionary, and or the history books, encyclopedia’s, etc.
And nothing you or any of you said, has been.
So feel free to walk off the field feeling as if you’ve won some elusive victory. Just don’t trip over your hair as you’re pulling your head out of your ass on the way out.
June 7th, 2009 at 3:01 amyeah, i was laughing at fred, when i wrote that, i admitted i was wrong. thats what you can a freebie. all the good hustlers give you one for free.
June 7th, 2009 at 3:03 amWrong asswipe.
I made the same point over and over and over.
You however were too busy trying to correct my grammar, and wrongly even, to bother to ever read it.
In fact the only person in here who even had a clue what my point was, was Pete.
Who was the only one I was debating.
The rest of you mental midgets just rolled in like clowns in a volkswagen and piled on never having a clue what was being talked about, or what you yourselves were talking about.
June 7th, 2009 at 3:03 amAnd like most illiterate idiots, when you’ve been made a fool of by your own illiteracy, you turn to the only thing you have left.
Attempting to mock someone for the very act of responding to your unwarranted insults.
June 7th, 2009 at 3:04 amso you STILL have nothing to say about the article you’ve been posting on for 3 hours? yep, nothing. bummer, if you even cared to get off you’re high horse you’d have gotten to have a debate or sharing of information or something. but you chose to quote the dictionary for 3 hours. I stand but everything you been called because you cannot think for yourself.
June 7th, 2009 at 3:07 amI’m agnostic. But, I am sure about one thing. The last poster of the night wins.
June 7th, 2009 at 3:07 amOne area you are no doubt more knowledgeable in.
June 7th, 2009 at 3:07 amHence your presence now no doubt.
June 7th, 2009 at 3:09 amyou have a debate about grammar, why don’t you go to a grammar blog? the more names you call me the more pointless you become. You don’t hangout with people very often. Telling someone something once is fine, if they don’t get it after the second time they’re not going to. Quoting the dictionary 12 times actually reduces the impact of your point. but I’m sure you’ll just call me illiterate again. you are depressionly dull.
June 7th, 2009 at 3:10 amI see you share another common trait with Bill Oreilly.
You both only see what you “think” you saw.
:|
Because you never bother to look in the first place.
Try reading dimwit.
Don’t talk.
Go back and READ.
June 7th, 2009 at 3:11 amYes, Prop 8 was indeed the result of a miracle….the miracle of hatred.
June 7th, 2009 at 3:14 amJust patiently waiting for you to start nodding off.
June 7th, 2009 at 3:14 am______
AaronQ of Maine Says:
lol, nouns as adverbs, good catch fred, Waybe is such an idiot
AaronQ of Maine Says:
But somehow Waybe spend 2 hours arguing without ever making a point, other than trying to correct people’s grammar. WTH are you the grammar police?
Grammar police indeed. ;)
June 7th, 2009 at 3:16 amnothing. if there was no one here for you to attempt to belittle you’d really have nothing to say. I’m not going back to read 600 posts where 500 are just quotes from the dictionary. I’m smarter than you. why because I realize you just a passive aggressive blog predator with no interest in the article at all. Know why I am smart, because I am done with trash like you.
June 7th, 2009 at 3:18 amI missed the whole conversation but wouldn’t some states want to mandate atheism so they wouldn’t have to compete with religion?
June 7th, 2009 at 3:18 amwith the rhythm it takes to dance to
what we live through
you can dance underwater and not get wet
Ow
psycho-alpha-disco-beta-bio-aqua-doo-loop
a motion picture under water starring mostly humans
June 7th, 2009 at 3:20 amUmmm, I don’t recall giving any inclusive definition of the word.
Does moderation also include making ignorant assumptions so you can blather on about claims no one ever made?
The incorrect use of the term “agnostic”
June 7th, 2009 at 3:26 amAnyone here read the God Delusion?
June 7th, 2009 at 3:32 amAnd where exactly did I “misuse” the term agnostic.
Since I have been an agnostic for over 20 years now, and have studied including at the collegiate level, theology and religions of the world, I think I’m fully aware of the meaning of the word, Agnostic.
But thanks for piling on.
June 7th, 2009 at 3:32 am
I’m an agnostic. But, my agnosticism is just be a belief that supernatural forces are impossible to prove or disprove. Despite my belief, those things could possibly be provable.
June 7th, 2009 at 3:39 amis just a belief…
June 7th, 2009 at 3:39 amAnd my “point”, which so many of the dogpile here tried to bury in their inane and illiterate attempts to muddy it in mindless attacks on endless minutia and confusion, was simple.
That no form of belief system or philosophy belongs in government, whether it be from the theists, or the A-theists.
Because whenever you mix religion with government, as we’ve seen with the Taliban and the other Muslim extremists, or the Neoconservative Christians and their predecessors, the Crusaders and the Suppression of Heresy through the ages, to the State imposed Atheist regimes both communist and otherwise (Envar Hoxha dismantled communism prior to declaring Albania an “ATHEIST STATE”) we’ve seen it leads to oppression, exclusion, persecution and at times, atrocities.
So rather than adopt a view of it’s either Atheist or Theist, how about we keep both belief systems out of government and follow the spirit of the Constitution and the implied separation of Church and State and the persecution of the Church by the state?
THAT was my point. And I made it clear from the beginning if you’d taken the time to read it.
June 7th, 2009 at 3:41 amPagans just want to have fun. Like girls. What’s wrong with that?
June 7th, 2009 at 3:43 amWaynebro. I agree with what you just said 100%.
It might be tricky to implement, but that should be the goal.
June 7th, 2009 at 3:44 amrepublican. I like girls and I like pagans. I’m on board!
June 7th, 2009 at 3:45 amAnd where did I say “I believe those things are impossible to prove”?
How about instead of trying to put words in my mouth, you use the ones I’ve posted already.
Try these three dickhead.
I left them hours ago.
Try “I DON’T KNOW”.
Try what “I” said.
Instead of inventing beliefs for me so it’s easier to argue whatever nonsensical undefined point you’re trying to make.
June 7th, 2009 at 3:47 amSo why didn’t you say so when I first said it about 7 hours ago?
Instead of sitting here trying to pile on some more?
June 7th, 2009 at 3:47 amWaynebro. I think the oppressive nature of religion is pretty easy to see. But, you make a good point.
State sponsored atheism could also be oppressive.
If I am a Christian, what right do I have to tell someone else how to believe?
Additionally, If I am an Atheist, what right do I have to tell someone how to believe?
I do however, believe that Agnostics should be able to tell other people how to believe. (just kidding).
June 7th, 2009 at 3:49 amWaynebro. I’ve been in the garage drinking beer and packing for a move. If I would have been here, I would have had your back.
I’m on board with what your saying here in the last 20 minutes.
(I’m too lazy to read what transpired up the thread).
June 7th, 2009 at 3:51 amCould be?
I think I’ve made it clear with the lists of oppressive state imposed atheist regimes like the murder of over 1200 humans for just their religion in the Soviet Union, that it HAS BEEN proven to be oppressive.
I appreciate your willingness to look at what I said “finally” but lets be clear.
Both atheism and theism share a common thread.
The radical, fundamental belief that the other is wrong.
And that’s a bad mix when it comes to government.
June 7th, 2009 at 3:52 amOk, well that’s ok. Sorry I called got a little snippy.
I won’t begrudge any ally at this juncture.
June 7th, 2009 at 3:54 amNewt! He’d better pray there isn’t a hell.
June 7th, 2009 at 4:01 am
Blow it off.
I agree with your premise.
Just because the belief in God can be oppressive, it doesn’t mean the contrary, the denial of God, somehow cannot be oppressive.
It’s really a separate issue from the idea that people shouldn’t foist their beliefs on others, whether they’re religious or not.
June 7th, 2009 at 4:02 amAnd to be clear, I agree that religion clearly has had a worse record than atheism. I never challenged that. In fact, I’ve spoken extensively on the topic in TP.
But some chose to deny atheism has ever had a similar oppressive role, and that’s a falsehood that bears illumination and rebuke.
Unfortunately, whenever one dares to address that issue, they’re instantly labeled “bible thumpers” and “Jebus freaks” by morons like RHF, and others. It’s happened so many times in here that I’ve lost track. And that’s one of the key indicators of the similarities between atheism and religion.
Both vehemently attack anyone even remotely defending a fact or issue upheld by the other side.
And you know what the Irony is here?
I came into the thread, denouncing Newt and his mingling of religion with government.
:|
Beat that with a stick.
June 7th, 2009 at 4:06 ammeant to say the ideas are coincident.
June 7th, 2009 at 4:06 amDespite people not liking what you said, it was important that you said it.
Although I often think about the oppressive nature of religion, I have not given much thought to the potential or capacity for oppression in mandated atheism.
Thanks for bringing it up.
I’m out.
June 7th, 2009 at 4:10 amWhat’s with the Gingrich presidential campaign? Its so early in the game and once a week now he goes out of his way to prove to everyone why he WON’T EVER be president.
I’d be surprised if even republicans would vote for him know that he almost singlehandedly assurred that Sonia Sotomayor would be confirmed without much of a republican challenge.
Is senility about to derail yet another republican aspirant?
June 7th, 2009 at 4:14 am“I have not given much thought to the potential or capacity for oppression in mandated atheism.”
Perhaps its because even the atheists are not demanding everyone becomes an athiest. Rather, their complaint is that why should people who would prefer reason to faith have to put up with all the “my way is holier than your way” BS, without a shred of evidence that it has anything to do with rational behavior other than as a convenient political ploy to get one’s way?
June 7th, 2009 at 4:19 amTaking a stab at some of the earlier ones… didn’t realize this was soooo long.
Uncle Fester Lurks Says:
How can you be a Christian and be a conservative? Conservatives support war, torture and hate.
Don’t forget that Jesus Christ was extremely explicit in his condemnation of the wealthy, those who failed to help the poor, warmongers, bigots, and those who loudly proclaim their own piety. In addition, at one point he actually got physically violent over those who make money off of religion.
To read any of the things he actually said, it’s quite clear that Jesus would hate today’s social conservatives even more than I do.
Although he showed an almost divine level of patience for underclass sinners, the Gospels make it clear that he would have nothing to do with a rich, blatantly pious supply-sider.
Nowhere is it written that Jesus ever said a single word against homosexuality or abortion.
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writepro Says:
Everything was to be placed under that authority and so our country become a nation of honorable God fearing believing Americans who knew that ultimately, A God was in control.
However, they intentionally declined to specify which version of a “creator” they were talking about, which is why we call them Deist. References to a creator were the best way they had at the time of saying that our basic rights are not derived from any existing Earthly authority. That is, it’s essentially a negative statement. In fact, the purpose of the DoE was to establish that sovereign legitimacy could instead derive directly from sound philosophical principles.
Up until that point, all sovereign nations used “divine right” as the basis of their own legitimacy. Had the ff’s been relying on the Christian God as the basis of the authority of the U.S. then they would certainly have established a monarchy. That they did not proves that the legitimacy of the U.S. is not derived from any form of Christianity. In fact, if you read the entirety of the DoE, it states exactly the logical basis behind the authority of the U.S. That is its purpose. And it’s not “God.” If that had been the case, the DoE would have been a lot shorter. To look at the DoE and hold that the intent of the ff’s was to derive the legitimacy of the U.S. from the authority of God would require ignoring most of what it actually says.
June 7th, 2009 at 4:24 am“Christianity began as a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. When it went to Athens, it became a philosophy. When it went to Rome, it became an organization. When it went to Europe, it became a culture. When it came to America, it became a business.”
All American televangelists are Republican. All of them steal money from the sick, the poor, and the elderly. None of them pay taxes. All of them campaign for Republicans.
http://www.inplainsite.org/html/tele-evangelist_lifestyles.html
June 7th, 2009 at 4:45 amRegarding the state atheism thing, WAYNEBRO is quite correct. Communism as a doctrine has always held that all religion is a Bad Thing, not just because it’s a “competing ideology,” but for a number of very specific reasons to do with religion per se. In some of Marx’s earlier writings he criticizes Christianity quite specifically for defining all perfections as being distant from mankind and therefore telling the masses that they cannot achieve or establish perfection in themselves either individually or as a group; that is, Christianity is anti-Humanist. It has been the official position of all Communist governments that there is no God, which constitutes state-sponsored atheism quite explicitly.
This of course has no bearing on the U.S. and other countries which practice separation of church and state because officially declaring that there is no God would constitute a “law respecting an establishment of religion,” i.e. outlawing religion.
Whether or not you consider it a religion in and of itself, atheism is a specific position on a profoundly religious question.
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Jimmy Big Bucks Says:
You should read the bible more often, because it warns us of a time when Christians are dropped to minority status.
It also warns us of a seven-headed monster coming out of the ocean, and a hooker riding a giant jaguar.
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writepro Says:
I am scared of nothing, my friends. I thank God for that. Come what may, I am secure and peaceful with the fact that God does indeed exist.
What if He doesn’t like you?
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writepro Says:
I will not condone marraige of same sex individuals should they so decide (but as one who loves God), it would not lessen my friendship or love for them. Each life will and must stand on its own merit in the end.
Nobody’s asking you to condone it, just to allow it to be legal. You can tsk-tsk at it all you want after that, we won’t mind.
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writepro Says:
Wouldn’t it be better to have a God, whether you believe in Him It or Her setting them, instead of someone who had no moral compass to guide their direction?
We have ethics. I often worry about what would happen if a particular fundie lost their faith, because they have no capacity to correctly work out moral questions for themselves. However, even though you can’t understand it, believe me when I say the rest of us do indeed have that capacity.
In this regard, I sometimes think of Abraham’s attempted sacrifice of Isaac. If God told you to murder your child, would you do it? If he didn’t back out at the last minute as He did with Abraham, you would have murdered your kid. Would that be a “good” thing to do? Under your system the answer would be yes, because you define “good” as “whatever God says.” According to my system, murdering your child is an evil act regardless of what the voices in your head say.
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backup Says:
I’m no scholar, but it also said something about the world being created in 6 days. And that somehow the world is only 6,000 years old.
… and somehow they were able to eventually spawn over 6 billion people. Really?
I’d be interested to see the population growth curve that could take you from two people to six billion in only six thousand years… but I don’t have the math for it.
June 7th, 2009 at 4:55 amcd Says:
Who wrote the folowing?
A: Thomas Jefferson.
My turn.
Q: Who wrote the following?
“Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.”
“Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.”
“But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”
“Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting “Jesus Christ,” so that it would read “A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;” the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.”
“I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.”
“And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.”
“History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.”
“Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between church and State.”
Hint: it’s a trick question.
June 7th, 2009 at 5:06 amNot yet, directly anyway. But given time, history has shown us repeatedly that the popular ideology of the majority tends to become the rule, as we saw the last 8 years under the Bush Theocracy, where atheists were isolated, and the irreligious were shunned and ostracized.
Which is why when we see rooms full of self described “progressives” mocking religion in general, insulting the millions who do believe, many who aren’t oppressive in that belief, it’s important someone say something.
No ones predicting an overnight Atheist state, but given time, religious persecution by the state is a possibility. Suppose liberals retain power for the next several decades, and as our kids grow and move into office, religion is gradually ruled out and shunned until only those holding office are anti-religion, much like most of those holding office today are pro-religion? Most will claim this cannot happen, but as we’ve seen with the rewriting of the Constitution by the far right, anything can happen if we’re not diligent in guarding against it.
And of course lets not forget the constant damage we do within our ranks, whenever the group collectively mocks, ridicules and attacks religion in general, as happens in here on a daily basis. When one stops to consider that the majority of this country are religious, one must also consider the foolishness of alienating the largest demograph in the country. Do we want to win more elections? Then we need to make sure we’re being truly progressive and not regressive.
Progressive means being inclusive, not exclusive. Progressive means tolerance, not intolerance. Progressive means being wise, not foolish.
The neoconservative right is busy excluding a significant portion of their supporters by alienating the moderates. It would be less than erudite for us to follow suit.
No ones saying don’t stand up to religious hypocrisy. Anyone who has been in here for more than a month and who is honest with themselves, knows I am the first to denounce religious hypocrisy, and the mingling of religion with the state. Hell I started in this very thread by doing just that.
But that’s not whats happening. Whats happening is a general mockery of religion and the religious in general, and a literal revelry in the posturing of atheism as the only acceptable position to take and religion as the fodder of fools. And tomorrow, no doubt the atheists will come in to tell us all why their beliefs are superior to the beliefs of the theists, and how their beliefs are the only ones worthy of consideration. And it’s that sort of group bullying by the atheists in this and other progressive and liberal blogs, that’s going to kill us at the polls.
Because if we can’t be inclusive, then all we’ve got left is exclusive. And exclusive doesn’t win elections.
June 7th, 2009 at 5:21 amSince when we do we all have to agree on religion to win an election? Leave that to the Republicans to hang themselves with. Anyone who has to have their religious beliefs upheld for them really isn’t very progressive anyway. Agnostics and atheists are finally being recognized—our president includes non-believers explicitly. Why should we bend over backward to keep from hurting the feelings of people who call us “damned”, “amoral”, and “pagans”?
Posters here who are believers can speak up for themselves and we’ll work things out the way adults work things out on personal levels. We will survive, and thrive without you setting policy for us, Wayne. Don’t lose any sleep over it.
June 7th, 2009 at 5:56 amNot a citizen of the world? That doesn’t sound like a New World Order, one global community man, to me.
June 7th, 2009 at 7:00 amMuch has been discussed about the original intentions and interpretation of the Founding Fathers’ ideas.
Let us set that aside for a moment and get back to the point of these A-wholes setting themselves as high priests endowed to direct a country following a mythical path.
Any cult leader will say the same. He does and speaks to the divine, and the sheep have to follow if the sheep don’t want to go to hell for eternity.
Listen to what these cult leaders are saying:
We are living in a period where we are surrounded by paganism = we are surrounded by sin
miracles “from God’s hand” = we have god on our side
If one were to take those statements and attribute them as a quote of OBL, few would reject them as complete religious zealotry and ignorance.
That is what we have here. The Xtian Taliban under GOPiggie skins.
June 7th, 2009 at 7:08 amWAYNEBRO Says:
Whats happening is a general mockery of religion and the religious in general, and a literal revelry in the posturing of atheism as the only acceptable position to take and religion as the fodder of fools.
It’s a cogent point that many of the scientific heroes that atheists hold in high regard have been profoundly religious.
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WAYNEBRO Says:
Because if we can’t be inclusive, then all we’ve got left is exclusive. And exclusive doesn’t win elections.
Exactly. We’ve got a lot of room to steal the more conscientous Chrisitans away from the right wing – war, torture, disdain for the poor, disdain for all non-Americans – these are all issues they’re currently on the wrong side of, both in terms of general ethics and Christianity proper.
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wiley Says:
Since when we do we all have to agree on religion to win an election?
Inclusion =/= agreement.
It’s nice that Obama, a Christian, affords your beliefs a measure of respect. You should perhaps return the favor, no?
June 7th, 2009 at 7:28 amWe could definitely get the Quakers, probably most Methodists and Lutherans, and some Catholics. Maybe even a few Baptists and Mormons in the longer run. I don’t hold out much hope for Assembly of God’ders, Seventh-day Adventists, or “nondemoninational fundamentalist” types – but there aren’t a lot of those combined anyways.
The fact is, Jesus was a liberal anti-war socialist. All we’d need to do to bring people over to the left would be to more effectively counter the lies that the right is telling about him.
June 7th, 2009 at 7:33 amI’m not knocking anyone’s religion, ElBruce. In fact, I would call myself “Christian” if I could do exactly what Christ told his disciples to do; but if someone wants to say they don’t believe in a “sky fairy” I’m not going to wallpaper a thread with some diatribe about them being Nazis who will doom Democracy as we know it, O.K.? Is that fair enough? Can I defend the right of atheists to express their atheism?
June 7th, 2009 at 7:35 ammeh, I think it’s worth calling people on it if they’re being unreasonably antireligious. I wouldn’t go as far as WAYNEBRO does though. He’s got a hair trigger, that one does.
June 7th, 2009 at 7:45 amHappy middle-ground somewhere. Most movements in search for valorization come out “in your face”. I expect adults to be assertive and defend themselves without having to have everything codified for them.Every day and everything is not the end-all-and-be-all.
Everything is everything (that’s my religion. but I don’t expect everyone to agree).
June 7th, 2009 at 7:54 am“only in the United States does citizenship start with our creator.”
Citizenship starts with being born in the US or one becomes a naturalized citizen. Newt needs to read the rules.
“We are living in a period where we are surrounded by paganism.”
Poor Newt surrounded by so many pagans. Thank goodness they haven’t bothered me…phew. But I’ll be sure to keep my eye out for them, Newt. Maybe Newt needs to move to another country and become a naturalized citizen there though he’ll need to do some rule-reading there, too. Poor Newt.
btw, I’m a Christian and a Democrat. Go figure.
June 7th, 2009 at 7:58 amThis kind of garbage makes me sick.
They have no clue about their own religion.
Constantine 325 AD seeing that Christianity was on the rise and causing massive havoc to his kingdom ordered the first council of NICEA 325AD. No matter how you slice this “Ecumenical council” the BISHOPS merged Paganism with Christianity to quell the unrest and restore order to Constatine’s Kingdom…
Hence Sunday worship (Mithros sun god) rather than Saturday the Yehowah day of worship.
Immaculate birth? Osirus, Dyonysis, Orpheus (jesus)
death and resurection Pagan goddess of rebirth Esther (easter) (Jesus)
Dec 25th…birth of the Sun (Pagan) (Jesus)
See a pattern?
Oh and they “rewrote” the Bible at this time tossing out hundreds of Gospels especially ANY Gospel by or about women…
Face it this religion is all about MEN controlling everyone especially woman and blaming them for everything bad (Original sin)
June 7th, 2009 at 7:59 amI could continue but, why bother.
There’s a pagan under your bed,
June 7th, 2009 at 8:01 amthere’s a pagan in your head,
there’s a pagan here
and a pagan there
a pagan everywhere
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.FEAR!
I’ve always wanted to be the 642nd commenter.
June 7th, 2009 at 8:01 amJust missed, pal. Better luck next time.
June 7th, 2009 at 8:06 amThw Grinch said on Twitter that he’d be on Face the Nation this morning. I wonder if he’ll resurrect this pagan meme?
June 7th, 2009 at 8:06 amI’ll venture a guess that it depends on how the numbers came up in the surveys. He is being groomed for a presidential run, isn’t he? My impression is that the GOP is milking every appearance as if it were a new hit single, and trying to find a magic incantation that will win an election.
In the age of irony, I think it one of many supreme ironies, that the GOP is reading entrails to figure out what to say next.
June 7th, 2009 at 8:10 amWe the Christian people, in order to form a more Christian union, establish injustice and define domestic tranquility, provide common offenses, promote corporate welfare, and secure the blessing of liberty only for those biologically capable of producing a posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the Christian Nation of America.
June 7th, 2009 at 8:11 amHuzzah!
June 7th, 2009 at 8:13 amI started thinking back to where I first heard people claim that this is a “Christian nation” and I realized it was from members and supporters of the KKK were I first heard this nonsense.
June 7th, 2009 at 8:14 amA lot of things are reminding me of the eighties lately. The Republican resurrection of Reagan. The moral majority. Perhaps during my childhood in the eighties, Christianity was like water to a fish, so that it wasn’t in our faces.
The current Christian revival does remind me of the KKK. For Christianity as expressed in the beatitudes, this is a dark time.
June 7th, 2009 at 8:18 amOh yeah—the eighties. Misogyny. A floodgate of racism and misogyny has opened in the response to the nomination of Judge Sotomayor. My jaw drops in the face of the unmitigated chauvinism that is rearing its ugly head in the face of simple pragmatism.
June 7th, 2009 at 8:21 am645 jurassicpork
Newt would have to be Pat Robertson stupid to repeat it.
Unless Newt actually wants to take over the ministry.
June 7th, 2009 at 8:22 am…my childhood during the sixties…
June 7th, 2009 at 8:25 amThe 18% is the ministry, and like the rice in the coconut trap. Newt and other Republicans playing to this hyper-religious base in definitely the monkey.
June 7th, 2009 at 8:27 amI love all this “christian Nation” stuff… :)
Most of the Founders were Deists, which is to say they thought the universe had a creator, but that he does not concern himself with the daily lives of humans, and does not directly communicate with humans, either by revelation or by sacred books. They spoke often of God, (Nature’s God or the God of Nature), but this was not the God of the bible. They did not deny that there was a person called Jesus, and praised him for his benevolent teachings, but they flatly denied his divinity. Some people speculate that if Charles Darwin had lived a century earlier, the Founding Fathers would have had a basis for accepting naturalistic origins of life, and they would have been atheists. Most of them were stoutly opposed to the bible, and the teachings of Christianity in particular.
Excerpted from Compton’s Interactive Encyclopedia Deluxe
June 7th, 2009 at 8:47 amMark Twain was an atheist. It didn’t take long for great Americans to move from professed Deism to professed atheism. Surely there has always been non-believers. It hasn’t always been so safe to say so, though.
June 7th, 2009 at 8:51 amDit di0dit dit dit dit News Flash…
Sarah Palin agrees with Newt Gingrich and fears that Pagans are taking over the Country!
When asked for a quote she announced,
“We need to push all those Pagans back into the ocean Mmm hunh you betcha and while we do that we should get rid of those darn heathen fairies lighting the night sky to the North of Alaska”… More at Eleven….dit dit idiot dit didt ditdit dit
June 7th, 2009 at 8:55 amAs a person who has shared 23 monogamous years of marriage, I find it offensive to take advice from Mr. Gingrich on matters of virtue. This “man” has lost all integrity in matters that call for a vow.
June 7th, 2009 at 8:59 amWiley says:
Surely there has always been non-believers. It hasn’t always been so safe to say so, though.
Not if you are running for elected office.
Things are changing, but we’re not there yet.
June 7th, 2009 at 9:08 amYeah, but this is one of the most critical moments in
June 7th, 2009 at 9:08 amAmerican history. Let us not feel as if this isn’t some kind of an emergency that’s right up there with the Civil War and Pearl Harbor. That’s the point we’re missing. I sense that many here don’t have the proper sense of dread. The Republican party is a human klaxon.
I agree that it IS a critical moment in WORLD , and American History…But Religion NEED NOT be an obstacle to averting Disaster.
Recall how Martin Luther King, or Desmond TuTu utilized Religion to gain Civil Rights.
If you believe that God Created the Earth, then you can’t Believe that Despoiling it is a good Idea.
One of Humans major evolutionary advantages, has been the ability to “See things Coming”.
We’ll see if our luck holds out.
June 7th, 2009 at 9:25 amMost atheists would agree that we shouldn’t destroy the earth. We could work on that common ground without having to agree on religion. Even those who are for voluntary extinction by way of not reproducing agree we shouldn’t destroy the planet. Agreeing on measures to actually stop the destruction is the hard part.
June 7th, 2009 at 9:52 amPagans rock, whereas, right wing overly religious nutcakes do not. A known fact.
June 7th, 2009 at 9:59 amI see the problem coming from the Millenialists, Christian Rapturists and Muslim’s awaiting the 12th Imam.
President Reagan’s Sec. of the Interior, James Watt, was an Evangelical Christian who dismissed efforts to “Save the Environment” because he thought God was going to fix things by Ending the World anyhow.
This is dangerous thinking
June 7th, 2009 at 10:09 amUPDATE: We all must agree with what Waynebro says. We must not refute a word he/she says and just consider it gospel. If you deny Waynebro’s words, beliefs, and ideologies and are not embracing the extreme & overly religious right wing mantra in this country, then you are scum and are not a progressive per Waynebro, because progressives embrace all ideologies and we are not allowed to publicly denounce them or point out any differences. Ever! Don’t forget it. So please, as we go forward, remember to hug all religious people, find common ground with them, and chances are their beliefs are better than your own. Okay? Thank you and good night!
June 7th, 2009 at 10:10 amA REMINDER: Politicians are people too and are religious. We must take Waynebro’s advice and embrace their beliefs, because who are we to judge them? They have their beliefs and they should be able to talk about them anytime they want and we progressives must stay out of it! Right? To be progressive is to embrace all religious ideologies and not make fun of them. We must not control when or where the overly religious speak their truths about Jesus and gawd. As progressives, we must be silent on this issue.
June 7th, 2009 at 10:14 amIsn’t it obvious that Jimmy Big Bucks went to christian school?
June 7th, 2009 at 10:16 amThis is why his party is out and will never come back. This culture war technique is running out of gas. Leave the gays, atheists, seculars alone and concentrate on real American problems, rather than using fake social issues to disguise your real plans.
June 7th, 2009 at 10:37 amSo I see the number of posts falls about thirty shy of the thread count.
Who got shit-canned?
June 7th, 2009 at 10:50 amNot a complete and total meltdown.
June 7th, 2009 at 10:54 amIt was a malicious troll that only posted complete sentences when it was cutting and pasting something from some source it didn’t cite. The usual you latte drinking libs blah, blah…
June 7th, 2009 at 10:56 amOh — the cheerleader from Liberty U?
Good. That one was a complete waste of bandwidth.
June 7th, 2009 at 11:02 amHoly Carp!
Almost 700 posts.
Well it’s a little late to point out that Gingrich goes to Bohemian Grove where they do mock sacrifices at the foot of a giant owl god, purportedly to be Molech.
Just Google: Gingrich Bohemian Grove
June 7th, 2009 at 11:21 amYour right, we should not rely on the internet, internet is only a media, but I think while you are writing this article your mind is not in peace… I knew from reading every word you wrote.
June 7th, 2009 at 11:35 amsohbet
June 7th, 2009 at 11:36 amHaven’t read all 674 posts. Sure someone else has said it:
A big reason early (and later) settlers came to America was to escape religious wars, religious intolerance, state religions, religious persecutions, to have freedom of religion and freedom from religion.
June 7th, 2009 at 11:37 amSesli, why don’t you go sohbet yourself? You are not very well liked around here. Do you know why?
June 7th, 2009 at 11:40 amWhat the hell is he talking about?
June 7th, 2009 at 11:43 amYou can get peace from Turkish porn?
June 7th, 2009 at 11:49 amAnd this is exactly why the Republican party is dying.
240 years ago Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, Franklin among others worked their ass off to keep God, and especially Jesus, out of America. Here we are over 2 centuries later and they are still taking steps back toward non-secular views.
Give it a break. Religion has NO place in politics.
June 7th, 2009 at 12:00 pmSorry I’m late, but I would like to add my
2 cents. Maybe Newt should appoint himself
as America’s First “Defender from Paganism” and
wear his pointy white Pope’s hat with special
face covering (protects against the light)
and special white robe (protects against
rotten fruit thrown at him).
Newt is worthless as a moral or
political figure. Or as a human being.
The others on stage with him were little
June 7th, 2009 at 12:25 pm(or none) better.
Newt is as unelectable as Limbaugh….
June 7th, 2009 at 12:47 pm“Fourscore and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.” Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address on November 19, 1863.
Well, apparently Newt and friends have never herd of this. Or are they simply choosing to ignore.
We all know that ignorance is bliss, right?
In the United States, freedom of religion is a constitutionally guaranteed right provided in the religion clauses of the First Amendment. Freedom of religion is also closely associated with separation of church and state, a concept advocated by Thomas Jefferson.
June 7th, 2009 at 1:26 pmHe’s most likely one of the people who goes to Bohemian Grove to worship Molech every July
June 7th, 2009 at 1:30 pmNow that I’ve slept off the beer, perhaps I can articulate my points a bit better?
1. If BART were a billion times smarter he still wouldn’t have the right to tell me what I think.
2. As I’ve said, endlessly, I subscribe to the widely held, among modern atheists, notion that atheism is not a religion. I would be lying if I said anything else. As such, to “impose” atheism is a logical impossibility. I might add that, IMO and that of many others both famous and anonymous, communism and atheism are mutually exclusive.
Atheism has no gods, scripture, rituals, demands, dogma, or agenda. No Pope, no priests, no command structure. Communism has all those, at least heroes if not gods and Chairmen in place of Popes, and in fact functions as a religion unto itself. So. From my point of view, what has been imposed by communist states is not atheism. It’s communism.
I’m sorry if the language I use makes BART crazy but, since atheism doesn’t have doctrine or dogma, atheists don’t have a lot of unique code words like religions have. So, until some brilliant free-thinker coins a phrase that will satisfy those who can’t look past dictionary entries from hundreds of years ago, that were not written by atheists, I will have to continue using the words we have and seek to explain which particular definition I’m using.
June 7th, 2009 at 1:32 pmDr. Hussein Matt Says:
Can the teabagging terrorists provide any proof that Pagans are not moral or are somehow dangerous or not productive to our Country?
No way. They don’t even have a clue what a pagan is. In Reichworld a pagan is anyone who looks funny, talks funny, or has something they want.
June 7th, 2009 at 1:34 pmMY COMMENT BY QUOTATIONS:
“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
-GANDHI
“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
Alas, the ROCK CHURCH – and their guest speakers – seem to epitomize both of these exceptionally well.
June 7th, 2009 at 1:37 pmSad
<blockquote>” . . . the spread of gay rights . . . “
Yup, everything is The Gays’ fault.
Nazi Fascism in Germany, 1930s: Target the Jews, gays, communists, socialists, etc.
Republic Fascist Party in USA, 2009: Target the “Libruls,” gays, “pagans,” etc.
The Reich Wing is so predictable. They plan another “Final Solution” every 70-75 years.
June 7th, 2009 at 2:24 pmOh, please, please, PLEASE, let it be “Gingrich-Palin” in 2012!
June 7th, 2009 at 3:06 pm“BigBuggy Says:
Oh, please, please, PLEASE, let it be “Gingrich-Palin” in 2012!”
BigBuggy don’t hope for hat if they’re even nominated there’s a chance they could win.
I hope the GOP nominates a pair of bright respectable moderates.
I hear they have some in Maine.
June 7th, 2009 at 3:18 pmFor those who don’t want to dig through last night it was a good back and forth that devolved into a nerd fight over grammar.
BTW to who ever it was that was trying to claim Jefferson was an atheist he was a Unitarian that loved Jesus and believed in God.
June 7th, 2009 at 3:23 pmNo offense to any christian progressives, but I just thought of something funny. I dont know the numbers, but if anyone finds them you get a free thanks from me. It still works if I compare only the news articles I can find.
Take the percentage by volume of admitted homosexuals that are also pediphiles, compare them to percentage of catholic priests who engaged in pedophelia. I am willing to bet one, maybe two paychecks that pedophelia exists in a higher percentage among the clergy than homosexuals.
June 7th, 2009 at 3:32 pmbug it’s in poor taste to ask that question on sunday but among other things you assume that no members of the clergy are homosexuals.
June 7th, 2009 at 3:40 pmsh!t, Im an idiot! tp can we have an edit button?
That should read percentage by quanitity, not volume.
These are people, not apples.
June 7th, 2009 at 3:41 pmAnd it’s this sort of smug, arrogant mockery and blanket prejudicial statements which I address Bruce. And the fact that this sort of nonsense is the norm is evident by all the little “recommends” they get here in TP, a supposedly progressive blog.
The same sort of prejudice that says all black people are bad, or all gays are bad, is at the root of this sort of ugly, self righteous bile.
Mocking peoples beliefs, or making blanket statements about religion when in fact, HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of people are religious and yet never push their religion, or do anything deserving of such foul prejudice.
We talk a good game here in TP about our erudite nature, our superior progressivism, and our evolved principles, but at the end of the day the truth shows that we’re not that much further ahead than the bigots on the right.
No one wants to see this, which is why I speak up. Because I see it, and anyone with open eyes, will see it too.
June 7th, 2009 at 3:43 pmKayInMaine Says:
So please, as we go forward, remember to hug all religious people, find common ground with them, and chances are their beliefs are better than your own.
That’s not even remotely what he was saying. He’s often overbearing, but that’s no excuse to build strawmen.
.
Seslichat Says:
Your right, we should not rely on the internet, internet is only a media, but I think while you are writing this article your mind is not in peace… I knew from reading every word you wrote.
OMG, you actually speak English! Please please please stop dropping spam links at TP that go to foreign language sites. It’s evil.
.
pete Says:
I’m sorry if the language I use makes BART crazy but, since atheism doesn’t have doctrine or dogma, atheists don’t have a lot of unique code words like religions have.
Atheism does provide an answer to an unknowable religious question. As such, it has one and only one piece of doctrine/dogma: there is no god. This is an answer to an inherently religious question.
It may not be a religion in that it has no priests, churches, scriptures, etc. But it does share with religion the belief that it takes a firm position about a question about which it’s impossible to determine factually either way.
June 7th, 2009 at 3:47 pmAnd as for this mindless juvenile blather and uneducated ugly prejudice, well,…it just speaks for itself.
All this one needs is white sheet over his head and a burning cross.
And yes, all he’s doing is arguing with the encyclopedia, not me. Because as anyone who can read a history book knows, State ATHEISM was the rule in the former USSR. As it was in other countries, including Albania, which was officially declared an ATHEIST STATE by Envar Hoxha, in 1967.
I don’t say that.
That’s what the history books show us, as well as the newspapers, encyclopedia’s, etc.
Of course, this one, this illiterate, uneducated foaming at the mouth lunatic doesn’t bother to consider such things, because he’s too busy screaming hateful prejudice at the top of his lungs.
June 7th, 2009 at 3:53 pmI never told you what to think, and I’m not sure why you can’t just call me by my actual name (which is Wayne), but apparently you feel it gives you points to use an old handle that I no longer use.
June 7th, 2009 at 3:57 pmSpeaking of bile, have you read your own posts?
It’s not the same bart. I haven’t had any black people or gays try to make me be black or gay or force me to live thier type of lifestyle.
June 7th, 2009 at 4:10 pmOnce more, you are in the unattractive and un-tenuous position of arguing with history, not me.
I didn’t invent Albania’s state atheism Pete.
Envar Hoxha did, in 1967.
Something you’d know if you’d bother to learn a little about history, instead of allowing your atheist beliefs to cloud your ability to do so.
In 1967, Envar Hoxha created the first entire atheist state, actually using the term “ATHEIST”. I didn’t invent that. He did.
Prior to that, Russia and other countries, including China imposed state atheism at various levels and degrees, including murdering and persecuting the religious.
These are the facts.
And your denying them, or playing word games only makes you look more like the fundamental religionists who deny evolution because it doesn’t fit neatly in with their belief system.
As I said last night, the two key defining factors in both atheism and theism, are they both fundamentally “believe” the other is wrong.
And the neither facts nor historical reality are permitted to get in the way of their own images of themselves. As we see here with you last night, and today, denying “State Atheism” ever occurred.
You’re arguing with history. Not me.
June 7th, 2009 at 4:12 pmYes, and I’ve read yours.
And bile would be the chief definer of your comments, following ignorance.
I’ve never had a religious person try to “force me to live THEIR lifestyle”. I have seen religious influence in the government, where it doesn’t belong.
And I speak out against that. And always have.
But prejudice based on race, creed, sexual preference, color or RELIGION is illegal in this country, and rightly so.
So it is the same at the core. It’s ugly prejudice. And regardless of it’s defenders like you, it deserves to be shouted down whenever and wherever it rears it’s ugly head.
You’re in here cheering on prejudice and that is bile.
June 7th, 2009 at 4:16 pmelbruce, do you think bart reads anything anyone else posts?
I tire of attending the bartlebee lectures.
June 7th, 2009 at 4:16 pmYou don’t think the anti-abortion movement is manned and fueled by religion?
Would it even exist without religion? Would it even be an issue? Really?
June 7th, 2009 at 4:21 pmWell since each and every post I’ve made has been in RESPONSE to someone elses posts to me, then I think anyone with half a brain would be capable of deducing that I do read others posts.
But like the other juvenile half wit, you seem intent on making this about me, not the facts or issues on the table.
And the reason for that is clear.
When your position is as untenable as yours, i.e. group sanctioned prejudice, and when the facts support my positions and not yours, all you have left is your asinine juvenile personal attacks, and attempts to make yourself feel better about using an old handle as if somehow that makes your ignorance more palatable.
Prejudice is ugly from whatever side of the table it comes from.
And as you clearly demonstrate, ignorance always accompanies it.
June 7th, 2009 at 4:22 pmHow about creationism in schools. You are full of shit bart.
I could go on and on and you know it. You will never admit to being wrong, even when you are.
June 7th, 2009 at 4:24 pmFirst, why are you asking me questions if as you just got through stating two minutes ago in your previous comment, you “tire” of my “lectures”, and don’t think I read anyones comments anyway?
:|
Contradict yourself much do you?
And as for the question of religion, go back and read my previous comment to you (I know, ironic isn’t it) and you’ll see the answer was given to this ignorant question, prior to it being asked.
June 7th, 2009 at 4:25 pmYou were saying little fella?
June 7th, 2009 at 4:25 pmI already answered your question moron.
And you’d know that if you bothered to read my comments prior to posting your silly, ignorant tripe.
June 7th, 2009 at 4:27 pmYou said that discrimination against religion was the same as discrimination against blacks and gays. I pointed out where you were wrong. You can’t admit you are wrong. What’s new?
June 7th, 2009 at 4:28 pmSesli Sohbet
June 7th, 2009 at 4:28 pmSesli Chat
Görüntülü chat HeLLo mello KoLLoo Hasiktir:D:d sesli Chat gir Ç?k hop top :D diliilliilil
Sesli Sohbet
June 7th, 2009 at 4:28 pmSesli Chat
Görüntülü chat HeLLo mello KoLLoo Hasiktir:D:d sesli Chat gir Ç?k hop top :D diliilliilil
Sesli Sohbet
June 7th, 2009 at 4:29 pmSesli Chat
Görüntülü chat okey thanks
Well, what’s new is that you’re accusing me of not reading others posts, when you’re clearly too ignorant and rabid to read mine.
Otherwise, you’d know THIS is what I said.
Not the straw argument you tried to invent in order to make your ugly prejudice appear more palatable.
Pig.
June 7th, 2009 at 4:30 pmSesli Sohbet
June 7th, 2009 at 4:30 pmSesli Chat
Görüntülü chat HeLLo mello KoLLoo Hasiktir:D:d sesli Chat gir Ç?k hop top :D diliilliilil
Sesli Sohbet
June 7th, 2009 at 4:32 pmSesli Chat
Görüntülü chat HeLLo mello KoLLoo Hasiktir:D:d sesli Chat gir Ç?k hop top :D diliilliililewew
Sesli Sohbet
June 7th, 2009 at 4:35 pmSesli Chat
Görüntülü chat HeLLo mello KoLLoo Hasiktir:D:d sesli Chat gir Ç?k hop top :D diliilliililewewgwegweg
When did a black person ever try to get laws passed to make you live their lifestyle. Government or no, makes no difference. religion does it and that’s the difference.
You just saying that because it’s in government does not change the fact, they do it, blacks and gays don’t.
discriminationa against religion is different. Suck it up. You lose.
June 7th, 2009 at 4:36 pmSesli Sohbet
June 7th, 2009 at 4:37 pmSesli Chat
Görüntülü chat HeLLo mello KoLLoo Hasiktir:D:d sesli Chat gir Ç?k hop top :D diliilliilil heheherherher
When did I ever suggest that one did?
June 7th, 2009 at 4:37 pmSesli Sohbet
June 7th, 2009 at 4:38 pmSesli Chat
Görüntülü chat HeLLo mello KoLLoo Hasiktir:D:d sesli Chat gir Ç?k hop top :D diliilliilil
In fact, if you’d bother to read the quote of mine you posted, you’d see that it reads,
thus your straw argument falls once more limp and lifeless on the ground.
You can invent nonsense until you’re blue in the face Fred, and you’ll find I’ll be here to correct your lies, each time you do.
June 7th, 2009 at 4:40 pmjust this once admit you are wrong. discrimination against religion is not the same as discrimination against blacks and gays. You can do it and it will make you a better man.
You know you can’t support it. Saying government bla bla doesn’t change it, in fact it strenthens my argument.
June 7th, 2009 at 4:44 pmI will say this for you however.
You are a prime example of the lowbrow dull wit bigot, who demonstrates a prime example of the prototype of the sort of people who could stand up an atheist state.
Fools like you who are so blinded by their own beliefs are clearly capable, should they gain sufficient numbers and power, of imposing their core beliefs on the rest of mankind.
State Atheism has existed, and it has committed both oppression and murder in it’s name.
So to believe that it could never exist again is the key indicator, that it can.
June 7th, 2009 at 4:45 pmyou said you had seen religios infuence in government. Show me where blacks or gays did anything similar to make you live their lifestyle or admit you are wrong this one time on this one point.
A healthy mind could do this without problem.
June 7th, 2009 at 4:46 pmI also notice that you would rather lurk here in the dark of an obsolete bartlebee thread than encounter real time adversaries on a fresh thread. I just happened to catch you trying to have the last word…..sad and pathetic.
bye bart.
June 7th, 2009 at 4:47 pmRepublicani = fear, lore, superstition.
June 7th, 2009 at 4:49 pmApparently the Democratic Party, disagrees with you Fred.
http://www.reference.com
June 7th, 2009 at 4:49 pmAnd your reasons for “lurking” here are superior to mine, why exactly?
:|
Oh yea, like most bigots, you accuse others of things that when YOU do them, they’re “ok”.
Because it’s YOU doing them.
June 7th, 2009 at 4:51 pmso? Are you really going to defend the inquisition, etc.? Really?
June 7th, 2009 at 4:51 pmhttp://www.cobar.org (Colorado Bar Association)
June 7th, 2009 at 4:54 pmSo are you really going to sit there and lie like a fool and pretend I ever did such a thing?
In fact, over the years I’ve spoken extensively against specific oppression by churches and sects, and the “INQUISITIONS”, not “inquisition” you moron.
There were many inquisitions throughout the reign of the mother Church.
Of course I referred to them as their official title, “the Suppression of Heresy” and the Gregorian, Papal, Spanish Inquisitions, etc, so I can’t expect a rube like yourself to have had an inkling as to what I was talking about.
Once more we see that a lying bigot never lets the facts get in the way of his bigotry.
June 7th, 2009 at 5:00 pmSesli Sohbet
June 7th, 2009 at 5:04 pmSesli Chat
Görüntülü chat
Try googling the Civil Rights act sometime moron.
Start with the landmark act of 1964, which prohibits discrimination based on basis of race, color, religion, sex or national origin.
As usual, you’re not arguing with me.
You’re instead arguing against, of all things….the CIVIL RIGHTS ACT of 1964.
Of course I can’t expect a bigot to recognize that fact.
Bigots and the prejudice, never do.
June 7th, 2009 at 5:09 pmCONSIDER THE CLUSTERFU*K THAT THE LAST EIGHT YEARS OF ‘COMPASSIONATE CONSERVATIVE’ RULE (NOT LEADERSHIP) UNDER THE GUIDANCE OF A FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIAN DIMWIT AND HIS COTERI OF TOADIES, LACKIES, AND BOOT-LICKING SCUM HAS LEFT US WITH:
June 7th, 2009 at 5:20 pmOUR ECONOMY (TATTERS); MASSIVE UNEMPLOYMENT (9.4%); BANKING AND FINANCIAL SCANDALS; TORTURE AS A MATTER OF FACT; LOSS OF HABEUS CORPUS RIGHTS; WIRETAPPING U.S. CITIZENS; GUANTANAMO, BAHGRAM, AND BLACK SITE PRISONS AROUND THE WORLD; HOME FORECLOSURES AT AN ALL
TIME HIGH; WAR PROFITEERING GOES UNPUNISHED; NEO-CONSERVATIVE WAR
CRIMINALS WALK THE STREETS OF OUR CITIES W/OUT FEARING PROSECUTION.
THE LIST GOES ON AND ON LIKE THE ‘WAR ON TERROR’…NO END IN SIGHT.
SURROUNDED BY PAGANS, INDEED!
LAM-09
Seriously though when Newt says “Pagan” I wonder if refering to the only-slightly-more-creditable-than-scientology “religion” or to non-Christians in general.
Either way he’s a dick.
June 7th, 2009 at 6:10 pmI much rather think that “We are living in a period where we are surrounded by Fascism.”
GFY Newt, Ollie, Huckabee, et al.
An American Pagan
June 7th, 2009 at 6:28 pmA 30/70 split of religious/pagans seems appropriate. There must be something/someone to balance the holy-rollers. The 30/70 split is appropriate because the holy-rollers are so agressive in proliferating their faith.
June 7th, 2009 at 7:19 pmIn some ways I agree with these politicians. As a Christian I feel am I living in the Pagan States of America. I see Christianity systematically ridiculed and removed from public life. On the other hand I am not happy about two things these politicians are saying. For starters, our educational system is already in the hands of Christian-haters. If God is brought back there, students will be told to ask the Creator for things like tolerance toward homosexuals. Another problem is saying that the the USA appeared as God’s beacon in a revolt of Christians against bad guys. Was King George a pagan or an atheist? The Revolutionary War was one group of Christians breaking away from another group of Christians. Some other revolutions were different. For example, the Greek Revolution of 1820. On the feast of Annunciation Greeks put their weapons on the alter. A bishop blessed them, and they went off to fight their Muslim rulers. When Cyprus broke off the British Empire in the 1950s, Cypriots were led by their Metropolitan. When Romanians overthrew the communist regime in 1989, they were chanting “Our Father” in the streets. America was never a City on the Hill. It was simply one of many Christian nations. Now it is not a Christian nation any more.
June 7th, 2009 at 8:18 pmOn March 28, 1787, this man wrote an open letter “To the citizens of Philadelphia: A Plan for Free Schools”.
“Let the children…be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education. The great enemy of the salvation of man, in my opinion, never invented a more effectual means of extirpating Christianity from the world than by persuading mankind that it was improper to read the Bible at schools.”
His name was Dr. Benjamin Rush and he was a Physician, Founding Father, abolitionist, and Chistian Universalist.
June 7th, 2009 at 8:23 pmWell then you need to get out more.
There are Christian churches on practically every other street corner in America. There are Christian holidays practiced regularly, like Christmas and Easter. Even Thanksgiving holds its roots in Christianity, as the one we are giving thanks to, is the Christian God.
There are Christian oaths we take in courts and for holding office. In fact the President takes his oath on the Christian Bible. There are Christian sayings on our money, Christian songs on the radio, and the airwaves are inundated with Christian television shows and Christian radio shows (try driving through the south, the midwest or the northwest sometime).
Christianity is alive and well in America. That there is a growing anti-Christian sentiment among “some” liberal groups is not in doubt, but to say you are “surrounded with paganism” is a fallacy.
Unless maybe if you live in Vegas.
June 7th, 2009 at 8:27 pmBut I do agree that there are “Christian haters” in our public schools.
They call themselves evangelicals, and they hate everything Christianity stands for.
June 7th, 2009 at 8:29 pmStrange.
I thought we were surrounded by Reaganism, not paganism.
You know, Reaganism, that right-wing Depression-Era-regulation-destroying voodoo economics?
You know, Reaganism, that conservative economic scam meant solely to enrich the wealthy and screw everyone else, that trickle-down economic con meant to concentrate our nation’s wealth (and political power) in the hands of the few elitist oligarchs, turning U.S. into nothing more than a Banana Republic owned by the Banana Republicans and their corporatist pals.
Of course, Paganism is actually a form of Reaganism, because the only god that corporatist, oligarchical, conservatives really worship is mammon, money, totalitarianism.
June 7th, 2009 at 9:21 pmWAYNEBRO Says:
State Atheism has existed, and it has committed both oppression and murder in it’s name.
This is also true of every form of Christianity, plus Islam, Capitalism, Communism, Mercantilism, Corporatism, Imperialism, Feudalism, Fascism and every other organizational belief structure in history.
The only way to avoid a belief system being used to justify oppression and murder is for nobody to believe in anything. Mind you, we’d still have oppression and murder, we’d just spend less time talking about why.
.
abayden Says:
In some ways I agree with these politicians. As a Christian I feel am I living in the Pagan States of America.
Right, if your belief system doesn’t have absolute authority, then you figure someone else’s does. If you don’t understand the United States Constitution, why do you even bother living here? We’ve had separation of church and state since the founding of America. It’s not a new thing.
.
WAYNEBRO Says:
If God is brought back there, students will be told to ask the Creator for things like tolerance toward homosexuals.
Stop defending intolerance or claiming that it comes from God. You are committing blasphemy.
.
abayden Says:
Another problem is saying that the the USA appeared as God’s beacon in a revolt of Christians against bad guys. Was King George a pagan or an atheist? The Revolutionary War was one group of Christians breaking away from another group of Christians. Some other revolutions were different. For example, the Greek Revolution of 1820. On the feast of Annunciation Greeks put their weapons on the alter. A bishop blessed them, and they went off to fight their Muslim rulers. When Cyprus broke off the British Empire in the 1950s, Cypriots were led by their Metropolitan. When Romanians overthrew the communist regime in 1989, they were chanting “Our Father” in the streets. America was never a City on the Hill. It was simply one of many Christian nations.
I’m pulling this section out to thumbs-up it separately. I disagree with your aims, but I appreciate that you seem to have an accurate grasp on history.
The situation that the Pilgrims faced that caused them to move here illustrates what the real problem with having state religion – the correct, or allowable, form of religion that the state permits to be practice inevitably narrows over time, excluding more and more denominations of that religion. Inevitably when you get religion in the state, you wind up getting the state in your religion too.
June 7th, 2009 at 11:09 pmThat reminds me of that Reese’s commercial. Two people bump into each other ‘hey you got your religion in my state!’ ‘no you got your state in my religion!’ Only the results are not quite as delicious.
June 8th, 2009 at 12:47 amRacist is Gingrich middle name and hypocrite is his last
June 8th, 2009 at 3:40 amSesli Sohbet
June 8th, 2009 at 3:43 amSesli Chat
Görüntülü chat
SesliSohbet lets go okey tnks
you need to go preach to all those in the closet Republicans
June 8th, 2009 at 3:53 amNo, there’s another way.
At least with regards to the oppression part.
Keep religion and atheism out of government.
And as for nobody believing in anything, we’re back to oppression. How would you institute such a thing? The only way to do that is to outlaw beliefs, and not only would that constitute oppression on a massive scale, it wouldn’t work.
We can tell people what to believe but we can’t make them.
Nor should we want to.
The only solution therefore is what I said days ago, i.e. keep belief systems, whether atheist or theist, out of government. Beyond facilitating the free practice thereof and ensuring compliance with the laws of the land, government should have no role in the peoples belief systems.
That’s how we avoid that sort of oppression.
Fail to do that, and you end up with things like the crusades, or the murder of the religious under Hoxha, and Stalin.
Just keep it out of government, and you’ve got the foundation for a government that can work.
June 8th, 2009 at 5:19 amI got a better idea.
How about you stop taking OTHER PEOPLES POSTS, and PUTTING MY NAME ON THEM.
:|
How about that?
June 8th, 2009 at 5:22 amI have enough trouble without you taking OTHER PEOPLES COMMENTS, and attributing them to me.
:|
Now I’ll have to spend 6 hours and 300 comments explaining to inbred morons like RHF and Fred that I never said that, and that you just put my name on it.
June 8th, 2009 at 5:24 amSomeone named “abayden” said it.
Not me.
Please post a correction so I don’t have to deal with the idiot squad.
June 8th, 2009 at 5:27 amWhen did Gingrich find religion? He never talked religion when he was in Congress. What a jerk.
June 8th, 2009 at 7:39 amSo, first we’re GODLESS… now we have too many Gods (Pagans!) :-0 They need to make up their frigging, so called, minds!
June 8th, 2009 at 10:00 amWAYNEBRO Says:
And as for nobody believing in anything, we’re back to oppression. How would you institute such a thing? The only way to do that is to outlaw beliefs, and not only would that constitute oppression on a massive scale, it wouldn’t work.
For some reason, the thought of totalitarian agnosticism makes me giggle.
.
WAYNEBRO Says:
How about you stop taking OTHER PEOPLES POSTS, and PUTTING MY NAME ON THEM.
Whoops, sorry. My bad.
June 8th, 2009 at 10:25 amInteresting comment for by all appearances, the GOP worships money and power. Sounds very pagan to me.
June 8th, 2009 at 11:41 amBe careful be very very careful I still need some eye of Newt for my stew.
June 8th, 2009 at 1:25 pmWell it shouldn’t. It’s not like we’re somehow insulated from the same emotions and capabilities that everyone else is. We’re all human, and we all share the same emotions, capabilities and nature, to a greater or lesser degree, and based on circumstance.
Picture a day when years and years of mocking religious beliefs in the public light has hardened most of our children to the point of intolerance for any sort of belief system, and in the same light, atheism has been drawn under the same microscope, condemning it’s belief that religious belief is wrong. Those children grow, turn into politicians and national leaders, Senators and Presidents and Supreme Court justices, and ultimately we find ourselves as a nation, intolerant over any sort of belief.
The state issues the proclamation that all belief systems are inherently divisive and therefore are to be shunned. This over time grows into real and enforceable laws, first at the state level, then onto a national level, until ultimately, the freedom to openly express belief or the practice thereof, in anything other than proven science, becomes outlawed, in the interest of national security.
Sounds bizarre I know, but the US is a new country, and our Constitution unfortunately is not binding in the minds of many of our leaders, not to mention many of our citizens.
Over time, given the right circumstances, such a nightmare could evolve, take root and become the law of the land. It’s all about tolerance and intolerance, and it’s all about the mingling of belief systems such as religion, atheism, or any other form of “anti-belief system”, such as some forms of agnosticism. The US is a majority rule republic ultimately, and our democracy teeters on the common sense and good judgment of the people, and the electorate we stand up to elect our leaders. Over time, we can see changes we never thought possible, on a national level.
For example, in my half century on the planet, I grew up thinking I’d never see the day when the US Government spied on all of its citizens openly and wantonly. We read about such nightmares from Orwell and Bradbury. We thought because we read such things, and even saw movies about them, that we were somehow aloof to such nonsense and anti-American activities, and thus insulated from it ever occurring in our country.
But alas, we see how that worked out, as we watched George W Bush, and now even President Obama, dismantle our 4th Amendment protections right before our very eyes.
And now we have no free democracy left. Every word spoken over a communications device. Every email, blog, web page entry, tweety twit, instant message, even our postal mail, is now subject to “inspection by the state”. Our homes are peered into by keyhole satellites, and thermal imaging.
Our monetary transactions and medical records, all subject to “monitoring” at both the state and federal level.
We have no more right to privacy, and hence no privacy, and hence no 4th Amendment. It’s dead. Dead and buried, and we get up every morning kidding ourselves, that there’s still a semblance of freedom left in America. But it’s just the death rattle of the 4th Amendment quaking in the minds of those of us who still remember it. Soon, in a generation or two, it will be a distant memory as our children grow up knowing and accepting that their parents sheepishly handed over their 4th Amendment freedoms for an ounce of “safety” offered by greased palm charlatans who neither wish to or can provide it.
And that happened in our lifetimes.
So don’t kid yourself. Given time, and given the mood of the fickle mob that makes up the voting block of this nation, anything is possible. Which is why we should be on guard for it and avoid any mingling whatsoever of religion, atheism, and any form of thought pattern that involves belief, or the lack thereof.
The only role government should ever play in the beliefs or lack thereof of its people, is in ensuring the freedom to do so as ones own conscience dictates.
June 8th, 2009 at 2:59 pmNo problem. I just didn’t want to spend another 300 comments explaining to the moron brigade that I didn’t make the comments, and that it was a mistake.
Thanks for correcting that.
June 8th, 2009 at 3:07 pmThis is why Newt is unelectable, I wonder if he thought about how this looks if he is planning a run for president?
June 8th, 2009 at 10:50 pmWAYNEBRO Says:
Picture a day when years and years of mocking religious beliefs in the public light has hardened most of our children…
No, I said totalitarian agnosticism, not totalitarian atheism. We already have strong agnosticism enshrined in law.
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Xisithrus Says:
This is why Newt is unelectable, I wonder if he thought about how this looks if he is planning a run for president?
The punchline is, he thinks it’s a great idea. Everybody’s positioning themselves to be the Huckabee of the 2012 primaries. Never mind that Huckabee lost the 2008 primaries, and never mind that a thrice-married known corrupt ex-pol can’t win the nomination…
June 8th, 2009 at 10:58 pmWell if you cherry pick it and leave the rest of the sentence out then I guess you can twist it to mean atheism, and imply I’m so stupid I don’t know the f#$king difference.
If you want to be dishonest that is.
Hell at that point you might as well go back to posting other peoples statements and appending my name to them.
Both are equally wrong and not honest.
Or you can complete that statement, where it clearly states atheism is included in that factor.
Here Bruce. Here’s the ACTUAL statement, since you clearly have a difficult time quoting me honestly.
There. There’s the ACTUAL statement.
Which dismisses your straw argument response that you invented by misquoting me.
June 9th, 2009 at 2:09 amAnd before you decide to boast fake umbrage, note that a “comma” was the punctuation mark, not a period.
Which means you didn’t even bother to finish the sentence.
Instead you purposely left out the remainder of the sentence which would instantly refute your spin on my words had you chose to include it.
So don’t even bother.
June 9th, 2009 at 4:13 amI wonder if ol’ Newt knows that Christianity is based on Paganism. So in a weird way, he is right. They are surrounded by Paganism. It is actually Newt himself and all others Christians who have Paganism in their religion. It is just that they twisted Paganism. He is just such a loser. I can’t believe he’s back and getting so much air- time. And yet they complain about a liberal bias. Jerks!
June 9th, 2009 at 11:47 amThis is a group of quotes from Jimmy Carter that need no further explanation or comment from me:
Fundamentalists have become increasingly influential in both religion and government, and have managed to change the nuances and subtleties of historic debate into black-and-white rigidities and the personal derogation of those who dare to disagree.
I define fundamentalism as a group of invariably male leaders who consider themselves superior to other believers. The fundamentalists believe they have a special relationship with God. Therefore their beliefs are inherently correct, being those of God, and anyone who disagrees with them are first of all wrong, and second inferior, and in extreme cases even subhuman. Also, fundamentalists don’t relish any challenge to their positions … It makes a great exhibition of rigidity and superiority and exclusion.
There is an element of fundamentalism involved, which involves the belief on the part of a human being that his own concept of God is the proper one. And since he the proper concept of God, he particularly blessed and singled out for special consideration above and beyond those who disagree with him.
Secondly, anyone who does disagree with him, since he harnessed to God in a unique way, then, by definition, must be wrong. And the second step is if you are in disagreement with his concept of the way to worship, even among the Christian community, is that you are inferior to him. And then the ultimate progression of that is that you’re not only different and wrong and inferior but in some ways you are subhuman. So there’s a loss of concern even for the death of those who disagree. And this takes fundamentalism to the extreme. This is an element of the fundamentalist cause in this country. If you are a wealthy white man, then you are naturally inclined to think that the poor are inferior and don’t deserve your first consideration. If you are a wealthy white man, then you also take on the proposition that women are inherently inferior. This builds up a sense of prejudice and alienation that permeates the Christian right during these days.
And, of course, fundamentalists don’t believe they can make mistakes, so when we permit the torture of prisoners in Guantanamo or Abu Ghraib, it’s just impossible for a fundamentalist to admit that a mistake was made.
June 9th, 2009 at 1:53 pmfelinetta if your talking about wicca it’s little more than the 20th century English version of scientology.
I feel sorry for anyone dumb enough to fall for the crap.
June 9th, 2009 at 8:45 pmI’ve been reading all the comments with great fascination. I think that both sides have missed the real point;it is not religion or politics that are the cause of all our problems. It is FANATICISM that is the true creator of virtually every problem we tend to have in society.The blind, hardcore belief ,that you and you alone know the truth, and that you alone have the solution if only everyone else would simply believe as you do then everything would be fine.Trust me on this, a Christian fanatic is just as dangerous as a Islamic fanatic, and a Democratic liberal fanatic is just as dangerous as a Republican conservative fanatic.Only when we learn the meaning of tolerance ,both for our selves and others will we be able to have a reasoned and intelligent debate on any subject. Sadly,though,people are always willing to receive tolerance and less willing to give it.
June 10th, 2009 at 4:07 amWhat does he have against Santa Claus.
Oh no Newt; don’t tell me you are turning into a J.W.?
Free People
June 10th, 2009 at 2:21 pm