White House Staffers Concede ‘Frustration’ Over Administration’s Slow Action On Gay Rights
White House Staffers Concede ‘Frustration’ Over Administration’s Slow Action On Gay Rights
Last night, Center for American Progress President and CEO John Podesta moderated a panel at the American Constitution Society convention that included Lisa Brown, the White House staff secretary, and Ron Klain, chief of staff to Vice President Biden.
Podesta asked the panelists about the concern that President Obama is not doing enough on gay rights, to which the crowd offered hearty applause. Podesta referenced a recent legal brief filed by the Obama administration which argued in favor of the Defense of Marriage Act, a law that Obama has said he would like to overturn.
Brown responded that the DOMA brief was “an awful lot better than the brief that was written in the Bush administration.” But, offering the disclaimer that she was merely giving her personal opinion, Brown continued:
There’s no question, personal statement, that there were some cites in there that should not have been in there. … They were trying to…essentially eliminate arguments actually that the Bush administration has made.
Brown conceded that the administration is “moving slowly” on gay rights. “Nobody thinks it’s fast enough right now, but I know the President cares about this. … It’s going in the right direction, if not quickly enough.” Klain agreed with Brown. “I understand the frustration,” he said, adding:
I hope next year when we have this conference and that question gets asked, it doesn’t elicit the same kind of applause that it elicited this time — because I hope we have more progress, more things to show for. And I hope the kind of applause it elicits a year from now is applause about the accomplishments we’ve made and the progress we’ve made in the ensuing year.
The crowd applauded, and Podesta said, “I hope you’re right.” Watch it:
AmericaBlog’s John Aravosis has argued that the Obama administration’s legal brief filed in the DOMA case is “despicable, and gratuitously homophobic.” Human Right Campaign’s Joe Solmonese penned a letter to Obama, stating that, “reading the brief, one is told again and again that same-sex couples are so unlike different-sex couples that unequal treatment makes sense.”
After initially criticizing the administration, Rep. Barney Frank (D-MA) sounded a more positive note. “I believe that the administration made a conscientious and largely successful effort to avoid inappropriate rhetoric,” he said.
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With the economy, multiple wars and health care, there’s so much for the Administration to concentrate on first.
BUT.
Here’s two things that are both quick AND easy to do in the name of rightful progress for gay rights.
Dismantle Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell
Strike down DOMA and pretend it never existed.
There you go! Two easy “first-step” things that offer across-the-board hope to one of the few true second-class social groups in America. Ball’s in your court, Obama. You can do it!
June 20th, 2009 at 10:51 pmDismantle Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell
Strike down DOMA and pretend it never existed.
It would be nice if it were so simple. But Congress has to get involved, and Obama can change neither on his own.
June 20th, 2009 at 11:11 pmIt’s up to Congress to change laws not the President. I’m just waiting for more whining from hanshiro now.
June 20th, 2009 at 11:12 pmI’d also like to know why everyone is putting this on Obama when the DoJ is the one that did it. Direct the anger properly.
June 20th, 2009 at 11:20 pmIt’s good pressure. We should be advocating for our agendas. I would rather see more focus on health care in the MSM right now. Better active than not.
June 20th, 2009 at 11:36 pmI’m glad he also decided to meet with LGBT leaders. I hope they come up with a strategy to urge Congress to address these laws.
June 20th, 2009 at 11:55 pmOT: I brought this up earlier, but I am amazed and saddend that a site that calls itself a progressive site has not had one post on what is going on in Iran today. People have died today for asking for the right to free elections. There was nothing that happened today that came close to the importance of the Iranian people protesting for their freedom to have a fair election. Shame on TP, they dropped the ball today.
June 21st, 2009 at 12:26 amWTF?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
A post on a real issue? An issue that obama and the dems have let many progressives and liberals down over?
What happened to the all backwash all the time? All the irrelevant nonsense that tries to paint the nations biggest problems on the unpopular goons that have no meaningful power or even credibility across the neocon/repug spectrum.
Surely this is posted in error – there hasn’t been anything posted here for DAYS that actually addressed an issue where the democrats aren’t either lallygagging around or selling out core constituents.
Did someone hit an UPLOAD button instead of DELETE?
June 21st, 2009 at 12:28 amangels81 – in case you haven’t noticed, any number of issues have been neglected here for quite a while, and if you even question what the dems or obama is doing, some will wag their finger and explain in the most condescending way how its all “calculated” instead of a capitulation.
Around here, it’s been 24/7 coverage of the most irrelevant people on the political scene – as if that somehow mattered.
People are dying in Iraq too and right here at home because they have no access to healthcare. Perhaps if the US elections had any credibility around the world, leaders here could do something.
Of course, the wholesale theft of US elections is not covered here either, but that is another issue.
Curious though – have you expressed the same outrage here about the stolen elections of 2000 and 2004 the led to the war crimes and crimes against humanity that are being committed in your name in Iraq?
June 21st, 2009 at 12:33 amThe Senate has a case of legislative indigestion that’s frustrating the House and gravitating people like me to expect Executive action to remedy this mess. Save the president some time so he can enforce the laws and streamline the government. Make some damn laws, Congress–give the gays their 1,200 rights!
June 21st, 2009 at 12:43 amThere is very little reporting on the Iranian situation even on Al Jazeera. What exactly are we supposed to say?
June 21st, 2009 at 12:43 amAnother joe, Yes I have expressed my outrage about the war and the stolen elections in 2000 and 2004. What the hell would make you think I haven’t? If you have ever read any of my posts on this site, that should be perfectly clear.
June 21st, 2009 at 12:43 amwiley, I guess you just aren’t interested if you think there is no info out there. Try Huffpo, Andrew Sullivans blog, CNN, BBC, Taylor Marshes blog and the list goes on. This is supposed to be a progressive blog, and I would have thought that progressives on this site may have some insight and opinions about what is happening in a country that is important to this country.
June 21st, 2009 at 12:48 amMeanwhile there is a complete mess at the US Commission on Civil Rights. To circumvent the rules, two additional Republicans were added to the commission by having them affiliate as “independents.” One works for the damned Heritage Foundation. The commission is now creating additional problems for the gay community:
http://www.tips-q.com/1045688-gop-holdovers-making-mischief-us-comm-civil-rights
June 21st, 2009 at 1:05 amWhat would it take, for now, to write an EO to discontinue the terminations of those because of orientation and make it retroactive? There have been some very talented folks let go only because of orientation.
As it stands now,the military has strict standards of show of affection, so what is there to worry and think about?
June 21st, 2009 at 1:11 amOn DOMA that is correct. However, DADT can be repealed by executive order which is how Truman integrated the military. At a minimum, Obama could stop the firings – today if he really wanted to.
While I think that a number of people in the gay community have gone off (you’ll excuse the expression) half cocked on DOMA, the lack of action on DADT is inexplicable and spectacularly frustrating.
June 21st, 2009 at 1:13 amThat isn’t even the point. What I want, what many gay citizens want, is for the teens in our community not to feel like second class citizens. I don’t know if you have seen this video but this brave kid just wants to be able to have a schmaltzy wedding:
http://www.tips-q.com/content/video-gay-teens-emotional-testimony-vermont-over-same-sex-marriage32109
Our youth deserve a kinder and more accepting country than many of us experienced.
June 21st, 2009 at 1:22 amwiley Says:
There is very little reporting on the Iranian situation even on Al Jazeera. What exactly are we supposed to say?
In less than 3 hours, 1am to 6am pacific, John Rothmann will be on kgoradio.com, a historian, not always progressive enough but constantly talks of Iran. Right now Bill Wattenburg is on and can be a real bastard.
June 21st, 2009 at 1:29 amI looked at CNN and there isn’t really much information there. There are riots. The government is cracking down, somewhat. There certainly isn’t any new information there about the political situation.
We can say what we want about it, it’s still Iran’s fight. I wish the protesters well, and hope our government does not intervene to make things worse. As far as relations go between the U.S. and Iran, I’m not convinced that Moussavi would be substantially different from Ahmanidejad (sp?)—and it’s not our choice to make, anyway.
June 21st, 2009 at 2:05 amBarack Obama believes that marriage is between a man and a woman.
He does believe in civil unions. From Nov 3rd 2008:
But the President doesn’t support gay marriage.
June 21st, 2009 at 2:14 amSort of on topic but I thought I would add this into the conversation:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/20/210-census-will-count-sam_n_218489.html
I’m glad to see another step in the right direction.
June 21st, 2009 at 2:14 amThat’s right, David, we have to tweak the national spirit. Ideologically, I think I couldn’t cover more ground in terms of making society as comfortable place for gays as enjoyed by straights. But part of the solution is testing my own hidden prejudices; I still flinch slightly when I see two people of the same sex kissing–is that a sign of other subtle prejudices that would make it tough for me to settle into my own beliefs?
June 21st, 2009 at 2:22 amGay rights is a wedge issue. As such, it’s dangerous. The ignorant savages are incapable of dealing with it on an intellectual level.
June 21st, 2009 at 2:32 ammarwick Says:
Barack Obama believes that marriage is between a man and a woman.
He does believe in civil unions. From Nov 3rd 2008:
The Democratic presidential nominee voiced strong support for civil unions between same-sex couples “that provide legal rights to same-sex couples (so) that they can visit each other in the hospital if they get sick, (so) they can transfer property to each other. If they’ve got benefits, they can make sure those benefits apply to their partners.”
But the President doesn’t support gay marriage.
You provided quoted text that backs the president’s support for civil unions–the bulk purpose of a “marriage.” The non-quoted text are your words. We don’t pull taffy out of our behinds at TP.
But “marriage” as separate from “civil unions” is a religious construct, so that is irrelevant. The laws have power, and President Obama is not leading us into a theocracy, the last time I checked.
June 21st, 2009 at 2:32 amrhf, nobody cares that you hold a grudge against anybody. You are useless. Check your dosage WEEKLY. Adjust accordingly.
June 21st, 2009 at 2:43 amOne of my favorite people is a dyke (her word). She didn’t realize that before she had kids. One day she was out of town and her daughter had a appendicitis. Her partner took the girl to the hospital.
The poor girl needed emergency surgery but, they couldn’t find a “responsible” adult to approve surgery. It took the hospital about six hours to find someone to sign the form. That innocent child went through agony and faced death because the law didn’t allow for the responsible adult present to approve her treatment. It doesn’t get much more shitty than that.
I recall the exact moment I turned into a unqualified supporter of gay rights. My dear friend related this story about how her daughter was forced to suffer because of the hang-ups of the sheeple. That’s just plain wrong.
June 21st, 2009 at 2:45 amI am no homophobe. A personal quirk is not akin to foul treatment of anybody. All you’re here to do is pick off someone’s humble admission of a minor weakness and parade it in front of the crowd to fulfill your attention-seeking issues, rhf.
June 21st, 2009 at 2:51 amAnd the issue here is not whether one likes gay marriage — that’s not expected. It’s making a logical deduction that freedom means freedom for all, and under the rule of law gays and lesbians are entitled to a society to live, learn, work & prosper irrespective of someone’s personal views. It’s about the ability to see that the rule of law should not work against any particular group.
June 21st, 2009 at 2:57 amYou’re blowing up someone’s words into a propped-up incident. Gays should be free to marry and enjoy the laws (aka civil union) that make up the meat of a marriage. I never said it should’t. I’ve never come across any real substantiation that Obama doesn’t approve of gay marriage, but any contention of that, if true, would be seen through the prism of his own faith. It doesn’t factor into his agenda for the nation.
June 21st, 2009 at 3:00 amIf there’s one personality type I’ve never liked, it isn’t being gay, it’s the drama queen. You, rhf, know how to take your status as a drama queen to every medium.
June 21st, 2009 at 3:04 amI think you have the wrong word tagged — “homophobic” is not it. Maybe I’m simply straight, hence the twitch remark. And as I’ve tried to explain to your feeble mind, my personal preferences have no bearing on which laws to pass and rights to confer. Hate crimes legislation — I support it. A respect full tone and check on vile rhetoric — I support it.
But you’re eager to electrocute yourself in front of the crowd as to make a scene.
It’s 3 in the morning. It’s time to call it wraps.
June 21st, 2009 at 3:12 amObama kept Bush’s Faith Based Initiative; what else should one expect?
June 21st, 2009 at 5:32 amen son videolar
June 21st, 2009 at 5:43 amen son videolar
I spent the primaries trying to demonstrate to my fellow progressives that Barack Obama was the corporate candidate, not Hillary Clinton.
I was not myself a Hillary suporter, but I can tell a Democrat from a neocon.
I pointed out that Obama voted for the Cheney energy bill, which no Democrat would do.
I pointed out that Hillary has sky-high ratings from progressive organizations, which would not be the case if she were a corporate Democrat.
Methought these facts were painfully obvious. But the progs didn’t listen.
In fact, they cussed me out–calling me, my family, and everyone I knew a racist. They called every female Hillary supporter I know the C word. They peppered me with old right-wing smears against the Clintons.
In short, they acted worse than any Democrats I have ever seen. They had their hopes up, and were not going to let a woman stand in their way.
That’s when I realized the Democratic Party had gone bad.
Rupert Murdoch in Pain:
June 21st, 2009 at 6:06 amhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5L3XD8oKmY
Don’t ask Don’t tell is not appropriately named. If it were, when the military asked the soldier if they were gay, so they could fire them, the soldier would be able to say that this is a question you cannot ask and I will not answer.
The policy should be named, “If we find out your gay, you are canned, regardless of your years of service and valor that brought you numerous medals that most heterosexuals will never earn.”
A shorter version would be “Hunt the gays down and terminate them.”
June 21st, 2009 at 6:13 amThe real question should be asked…”Why in HELL do our politicians bring up their religious views when they say they’re against gay marriage but for civil unions?” That is a bulls**t cowardly answer to the question about this new civil rights battle.
June 21st, 2009 at 6:35 am(via Greenwald, Nov. 2008:)
Digby pounds the point I was making from the recent thread slapfight:
Let me repeat that: “but things move fast in politics and there’s no time to waste.” This from Nov. 2008 as well.
Is our posters learning yet?
June 21st, 2009 at 8:29 amSounds loke someone with assumed superiority wishes to indoctrinate. That really isn’t learning…
June 21st, 2009 at 8:40 am53.dbadass Says: Sounds loke someone with assumed superiority wishes to indoctrinate. That really isn’t learning…
Sounds like someone with an inferiority complex wishes to discredit. That isn’t really surprising….
June 21st, 2009 at 8:51 amwhy would someone have an inferiority complex? What is there to discredit? Before discrediting can occur credit has to be confirmed… Influencing others is best accomplished by treating them with dignity…
June 21st, 2009 at 8:56 amI viewed the video of Neda dying during the Iranian protests last night and wish I hadn’t. I try to avoid images like that, that are now seared into my brain forever. She was wearing western style clothing and that’s probably one of the main reasons she was targeted. They knew when they went to protest they could possibly be killed. When a people are willing to die for what they believe in, they can’t be stopped. So far, progress for the gay community hasn’t got to that point yet as long as there is movement in the right direction although that movement seems glacial.
June 21st, 2009 at 8:58 amchat sohbet
Sohbet
June 21st, 2009 at 9:16 am55.dbadass Says: why would someone have an inferiority complex? What is there to discredit? Before discrediting can occur credit has to be confirmed… Influencing others is best accomplished by treating them with dignity…
You tried this line of ‘manners advocate’ bongwater before and all you did was reveal yourself to be a selective hypocrite, or do you need reminding?
Yes, those misogynist leanings are coming back to haunt you…Mr. “Manners Advocate….”
Fold up that tattered tent, dumbass, it doesn’t fly any more now than it did then….
June 21st, 2009 at 9:18 amAt least obama turning his back on gay supporters is consistent with what he said during the campaign. He never said he would support gay marriage.
Now in healthcare, that’s an area that obama and the dems are in full retreat. Most recent polls show repugs are more unpopular than ever.
So what to the lying liars do – they capitulate to them (familiar story anyone?) and cave in to the insurance companies. Reports (never covered here) indicate that BOTH universal coverage and a public option are being taken off the table.
This despite current poll that says 72 percent of Americans support the public option!
Today, the lying liars with “d’s” after their name are a much bigger problem than the lying liars with “r’s” after their name.
June 21st, 2009 at 9:48 amFold up that tattered tent, dumbass, it doesn’t fly any more now than it did then….
– I believe I already noted that I don’t take orders. I think I also told you at some point that I will do whatever the hell I please. Catch you in a bit as there is a rope which wishes to be jumped…
June 21st, 2009 at 9:49 am61.dbadass Says: I believe I already noted that I don’t take orders
..but are all too sanctimoniously eager to dictate them to others. You’ve not transcended my reply(s) since then either:
June 21st, 2009 at 10:06 am
Another Joe Says:
——————————————————————————–
At least obama turning his back on gay supporters is consistent with what he said during the campaign. He never said he would support gay marriage.
Now in healthcare, that’s an area that obama and the dems are in full retreat. Most recent polls show repugs are more unpopular than ever.
So what to the lying liars do – they capitulate to them (familiar story anyone?) and cave in to the insurance companies. Reports (never covered here) indicate that BOTH universal coverage and a public option are being taken off the table.
This despite current poll that says 72 percent of Americans support the public option!
Today, the lying liars with “d’s” after their name are a much bigger problem than the lying liars with “r’s” after their name.
————————————–
From Huffpo:
The Democratic Party showed on Friday what it’s capable of when led by the majority of its members rather than its conservative wing. In stark contrast to Senate Democrats, who spent the week backpedaling on reform, unified House Democrats unveiled a draft health care overhaul bill jointly endorsed by three powerful committee chairmen.
Henry Waxman, Charlie Rangel and George Miller, chairs of the Energy & Commerce, Ways & Means and Education & Labor Committees, announced the result of six months of negotiations. The sight of three united committee chairmen in the turf-conscious House is a historically rare one.
Where the Senate Finance Committee’s outline of a bill didn’t include a public health insurance option for people to buy into, the House version includes a robust public plan that would operate nationally and compete with private insurers on a level playing field to keep them honest.
So, it would seem another Joe is just pushing a defeatist meme. Senate democrats are the problem, and tarring the whole party is just factually inaccurate.
June 21st, 2009 at 10:11 amI am fine with my words and actions.I also rarely make declaritive commands to others.Instead I offered you advise the endless uber progressive deal hadn’t been winning you many converts. Now as to the manners issue if you wish to selectively search comments which is sort of weird to begin with fine but you are skipping over the ones that don’t suit your premise and instead reinforce my reputation as being a manners driven person. I could care less as I will stand upon my reputation but still. Of course I say silly shit to those that are clearly unreal and insincere but does that really count?
I’ll critique as I wish thanks just the same… Look around my friend. Nobody is reading you as some sort of annointed one to announce some progressive lockstep….
June 21st, 2009 at 10:15 amI think Obama realizes that the country is in trouble right now and needs fundamental changes in health care, financial regulations, etc, etc. To get these changes done requires political capitol…capital he doesn’t want to spend on pushing gay rights issues right now. They don’t want to repeat the mistakes Clinton made with “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” and I agree with them. I’m all for increasing the rights of LGBT Americans but we have many more pressing issues that must be dealt with now. There’s a right time and place for everything and fights over LGBT rights now is not the right time imho.
June 21st, 2009 at 10:20 am64. dbadass Says: I’ll critique as I wish thanks just the same… Look around my friend. Nobody is reading you as some sort of annointed one to announce some progressive lockstep….
Posting the truth, particularly ahead of the curve rarely garners welcome, much less “converts,” which apparently is your mark of success or validation. Mine is rather getting the truth out there, based and sourced from credible directions: ACLU, CREW, Greenwald, and others.
You only wish to cast those who roil your illusions as trolls, provocateurs, and troublemakers, nevermind that the information is valid and pressing.
Your double standard behavior and sanctimonious and unsolicited advice, coupled with your attempt at populist validation as benchmark to credibility is so filled with fallacy as to be laughable.
But no matter, as the fact that you, uninterrupted by fact or insight, continue to be you, is a far worse blight than any malediction that I could summon for your tiresomely ignorant hypocrisy.
June 21st, 2009 at 10:33 amwell, this thread is a Concern Troll’s heaven
no need to try to convince them of anything, they are here to foment division, nothing else
best to ignore and flag
June 21st, 2009 at 10:35 amSo despite many words of far more thoughtful folks through the ages we got ourselves a knowing of “truth”. Wow how lucky we are. Im my experience the “truth”is nothing more than the interpretations of events to suit a predetermined agenda…
June 21st, 2009 at 10:40 amI suppose next we will be offered the meaning of beauty and justice as decided by the one…
Hi Ranting Tommy:
June 21st, 2009 at 10:40 amOT but whatever. For real next time in Pittsbug check out the Altar Bar. It is in an old church. I had fun there… It is sort of sacrilicious…
Posting the truth, particularly ahead of the curve rarely garners welcome, much less “converts,” which apparently is your mark of success or validation.
Isn’t that called democracy? How else does one gather others to a political candidacy, or cause? Soapbox stands rarely become successful political agendas.
June 21st, 2009 at 10:42 amdbadass, hanshiro is not interested in anything but whining about Obama. He whines as much as the right wing trolls.
Those of us who had our eyes and ears open during the campaign know that we voted for a center-left candidate who is pragmatic and will do things in an intelligent, metered way.
The impatient uber-libs and the troglodyte right wingers will just have to deal with it.
June 21st, 2009 at 10:43 amI’d also like to know why everyone is putting this on Obama when the DoJ is the one that did it. Direct the anger properly.
Oh, I dunno…mebbe cuz it’s OBAMA’S department of Justice (?), Holder’s his guy, shit like that?
June 21st, 2009 at 10:45 amI will. I was only there for an hour or so and wanted to spend the whole time on the bike. Next time I travel up there I’ll get to it.
I’m headed to Manhattan sometime this fall on the bike. 900 miles, should be fun.
June 21st, 2009 at 10:45 amOr is Hanshiro our John, the baptist? Doomed to preach in the wastelands of progressives?
June 21st, 2009 at 10:45 amwell, this thread is a Concern Troll’s heaven
no need to try to convince them of anything, they are here to foment division, nothing else
best to ignore and flag
June 21st, 2009 at 10:35 am
Be careful not to drown in the root-beer, tommy!
June 21st, 2009 at 10:46 amRanting Tommy
June 21st, 2009 at 10:47 amDo you ever do the whole NH Lakes region gig? The rain is sort of bumming it out this year. Luckily no deaths reported yet
If so, he’ll have to wrestle Tokin for the position.
June 21st, 2009 at 10:47 amI don’t drink root-beer
June 21st, 2009 at 10:48 amWhat did you think of George Bush’s attempt to update & change our current healthcare system? And were you happy with the way he handled the gay issue? Let us know.
June 21st, 2009 at 10:49 amok, too much whining on this thread
I’m off to enjoy my day, knowing that Obama is a thoughtful, pragmatic leader, and not a knee-jerk crowd pleaser like our sad little whiners wish he was
peace
June 21st, 2009 at 10:50 amdbadass, I’m a little surprised that you’ve chosen to engage our friend hanshiro this morning. I’d have thought his agenda was made clear yesterday and, despite your best efforts at dialogue (which are considerable, to be sure) not likely to alter its course.
His critiques of your approach seem vaguely similar to those he launched in my direction yesterday. But at least he didn’t accuse you of spinning a “miasma of verbiage”, a metaphor that I found particularly ironic, given the flowery nature of the phrase itself.
Best to let our friend cry out from the wilderness, and surely, eventualy the rest of us will see the light. I’m certain our friend can identify with Butch Cassidy who said, “I got vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals”.
June 21st, 2009 at 10:55 amDammit, barfly! I was just workin’ on that very same metaphor and you stole my thunder.
June 21st, 2009 at 10:57 amMaybe it’s because only 21% of the nation really care that queers get their way? I mean…that leaves the other 79% of the nation who think he needs to leave them in the closet!
June 21st, 2009 at 10:57 amGeorge Bush was the leader in healthcare reform and for gay rights! Doesn’t everybody understand this? Jees.
June 21st, 2009 at 10:58 amEvery speech George Bush made never included 9/11 or Iraq, because he was so damn focused on reforming healthcare in our country and making sure the gays in our country were not treated like 2nd class citizens! Jees. You people are so ungrateful for what George Bush did for our nation over 8 years.
June 21st, 2009 at 11:05 amRealityCheck, please prove to everyone here how George Bush was the leader on healthcare and the gay issue and how it’s President Obama who is ignoring both. Thanks pal!
June 21st, 2009 at 11:06 amHi Reality Check:
June 21st, 2009 at 11:08 amSo what exactly is your beef with homosexuals? Oh and where did you come up with those numbers?
Hi Ralph:
June 21st, 2009 at 11:11 amI am in and out with the dad day thing. Mostly out jumping rope and riding bike in between showers but anyway best to you. I assume you will tell of great weather west of here. The thing is that the dude does have a reasonable value system. The problem is the presentation and presumption…
By the way, I am being snarky on #84, 85, & 86!
June 21st, 2009 at 11:11 amKay, I’m probably not telling you anything you don’t know but Alternate-RealityCheck is not one of our brighter trolls.
Given the appalling level of performance of our standard troll, this should tell you something quite revealing about Alternate-RealityCheck. So trying to get a sensible answer from him is like trying to refine gasoline from grape juice.
June 21st, 2009 at 11:12 amHappy Dad’s Day to you, dbadass. I agree that our friend is operating from a good value system. The thing I have a problem with is his impatient dismissal of any opinion that doesn’t match his own. The presumption doesn’t help, of course.
June 21st, 2009 at 11:15 amWhat pussies hanshiro the antlion and another joe are to hide behind thier anonomity in a blog just to behave in exactly the same way we have come to expect from any rabid right wing ditto head.
If they were really progressives they would detest their own behavior, I know I do.
June 21st, 2009 at 11:26 amTP – you should do Lisa Brown a HUGE favor and
find a better screen shot…
think, ‘golden rule’ here…?
June 21st, 2009 at 11:49 amYoungSloshee Says:
Dismantle Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell
Strike down DOMA and pretend it never existed
The only way President Obama could do these things without congress passing legislation would be by Executive Order. And if you don’t think that would bring howls of protest from the right, I have a bridge to sell you. Personally I think that Obama should give them the finger and tell them to go suck lemons, but that’s not how our current President operates.
I have to say that I am getting somewhat irritated at the gay activists that think these issues should be number one on Obama’s plate. I think these issues will cause less harm left on the back burner than if Obama put saving our economy and health care reform on the back burner. Those two issues affect the entire country and should be his first priorities.
June 21st, 2009 at 12:28 pmwiley Says:
I looked at CNN and there isn’t really much information there. There are riots. The government is cracking down, somewhat. There certainly isn’t any new information there about the political situation.
Go to Huffington Post. They are live blogging the situation in Iran and have the most up-to-date information.
Perhaps the reason why TP isn’t covering this is because HP is doing such a good job of it. If TP were to post a blog entry on Iran, it would only be linking to the HP coverage.
June 21st, 2009 at 12:34 pmLMAO Ralph!
June 21st, 2009 at 12:38 pmThe gay community has been quite patient with the administration and fully understands the need to address the big issues facing the president and the nation. However if you are going to compare my relationship to incest, polygamy, and pedophilia as in that DOMA brief then this gays gloves are coming off. There is no excuse for such hate filled language especially from people who claim to be on our side. Now they need to pony up and show they really meant what they promised during the campaign. Too bad if it wasn’t on their schedule yet. They shouldn’t have used such horribly insulting language for whatever they were trying to do.
June 21st, 2009 at 1:09 pmgoing slow is one thing, but that DOMA brief actually took us ***BACKWARDS***.
i’ve been part of the TP community for many years now, but the weird reaction (its considered “whining” to mention our civil rights) here has made me feel like very unwelcome.
June 21st, 2009 at 1:15 pmLets be honest here. John Aravosis of Americablog, is a whiny, little arrogant piss ant. He doesn’t care about anybody else but himself.
In the past he has went on self centered rants at his blog whining because others were getting government rebate checks but he who makes over $75,000.00 a year running a blog, wasn’t getting one.
Before that he went on a self righteous rant throwing the transgendered under the bus because he wanted his rights as a gay man but that if giving transgenders the same rights was holding up any rights for gays well good old Johnny A said that the transgenders should have to wait for theirs rights. John is all about John.
June 21st, 2009 at 1:16 pmtokin librul Says:
I’d also like to know why everyone is putting this on Obama when the DoJ is the one that did it. Direct the anger properly.
Oh, I dunno…mebbe cuz it’s OBAMA’S department of Justice (?), Holder’s his guy, shit like that?
Or try that that this isn’t the Bush admin and unless he actually wrote the brief, he has no control over the DoJ. I had posted something at 22 going into more detail but apparently it’s awaiting moderation.
The President’s response, along with some remarks from Keith an a guest but sums up a productive response nicely.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/#31416031
Enjoy. Regardless of how repugnant the law is the DoJ has to uphold it. Obviously the language should have been changed. I’ve expressed that anger to people who can actually do something.
Just ignore the concern trolls. Same old whining, no solutions. OFnF :)
June 21st, 2009 at 1:30 pmAnd Happy Father’s Day to all our wondering TP dads! Yes, even the trolls if they are dads too :)
June 21st, 2009 at 1:33 pmOkay, that’s weird. I was responding to Ralph at #96 after he wrote this:
LOL Still laughing Ralph!
*waving to Uncle Fester Lurks* :-)
June 21st, 2009 at 1:38 pmJust finished the lemon meringue pie for my Dad. He and my mother will be coming by @ 3:30pm. This is my first attempt at making this kind of pie so cross your fingers it tastes good when the time comes. :-) I know I am. LOL
June 21st, 2009 at 1:39 pmOh well here’s what I posted at 22. I was responding to someone. Hope I don’t get in trouble but I’ll leave out the links on the bottom until the post gets approved:
On DOMA that is correct. However, DADT can be repealed by executive order which is how Truman integrated the military. At a minimum, Obama could stop the firings – today if he really wanted to.
While I think that a number of people in the gay community have gone off (you’ll excuse the expression) half cocked on DOMA, the lack of action on DADT is inexplicable and spectacularly frustrating.
I’m afraid you are wrong. The UCMJ would still have laws on the books that make sodomy illegal. Their definition of sodomy is quite broad and has been used before DADT to discharge gay soldiers. I’ll mention a link below that illustrates that point. Obama could repeal it through an excutive order yes but without dealing with the underlying laws it’ll be open season on anyone suspected to be gay whether they say so or not.
Also, he is not the Legislature in Chief. It is not his job to repeal laws, that is for Congress to do. It wasn’t okay when Bush did it and it isn’t okay for Obama to do it. Suddenly having a Dem in office doesn’t make it okay for Obama to repeat his mistakes. I often find that point being made yet the contradiction is still there.
Obama has the power to stop discharges on an individual level. I’m sorry but I’m sure most reasonable people would have him trying to get healthcare and the economy dealt with rather than litigate every single discharge.
Also, you are wrong about how DADT was enacted. Truman has nothing to do with it.
“Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell”
Currently, a civilian law passed by the United States Congress, commonly known as “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell,” is the most powerful restraint on gay men and lesbians in the military. Passed in 1993, it continues the long-standing United States military tradition of prohibiting homosexuality, even as it attempts to appear more tolerant. The reality is that as of 2000, the annual number of gay and lesbian discharges has risen to roughly 1200, considerably more than was the case before the adoption of “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell.”
http://www.glbtq.com/social-sciences/military_law_us,2.html
June 21st, 2009 at 1:40 pm2nd part w/o links:
While I find the idea that anyone should have to hide their sexuality when they are bravely serving their country repugnant there has been entirely too much misinformation on this topic. It isn’t as easy and one would hope.
It is the job of Congress to deal with laws. It is the job of the courts and the DoJ to interpret existing laws despite how ridiculous you and I probably think it is.
If you’re really concerned, might I suggest writing to your state’s senators and reps and urge them to bring the issue up? There are also plenty of pro LGBT political action committees who I’m sure would love your help in dealing with these matters. I’m part of one here in California that is opposing Prop 8. It helps to get out and spread correct information and debunk people’s myths (not refering to you, mearly the misinformed regarding the LGBT community.
I feel for the situation the LGBT community faces. I truly hope this is dealt with in a productive manner.
Here are some more links for information regarding the UCMJ and to better illustrate my points:
June 21st, 2009 at 1:41 pmgrover, I think you’ve misconstrued the complaints of “whining”.
It’s not “mentioning our civil rights”; it’s the obsessive and repetitive harping on the most uncharitable and gloomy interpretation of the steps of the Obama administration from a certain few of our regulars that is being called “whining”.
Those particular posters don’t help their case, either, when they insist that anyone who doesn’t buy the same view that they embrace are “morons”, “cowards”, “tragically uninformed” and so on.
In short, it’s not the message so much as the style of delivery that is called “whining”.
June 21st, 2009 at 1:46 pmAsking the question and self-realization are the most important steps that one can take.
Interestingly, there are many gays who are embarrassed by some of our more flamboyant citizens. I am a caricature of straight – sort of a sawed-off, cigar smoking Jew. I enjoy the diversity of our community. It represents people being themselves, comfortable with who they are. The religious right would assert that such people are somehow harmful to children. Their claim seems to be based on the contagion theory of sexual orientation. With such erudition, I find it remarkable that we haven’t yet succeeded at blowing up the planet. That, folks, is a work in progress ;-)
Check this out: http://www.tips-q.com/1049191-church-exorcises-gay-video
June 21st, 2009 at 2:01 pmHey Kay! :)
June 21st, 2009 at 2:07 pmHi Uncle! ;-)
June 21st, 2009 at 2:15 pmCouldn’t have said it better myself, Uncle! He’s very hypocritical isn’t he? And to think he was a Hillary supporter, then an Obama supporter, described you and I as being a bunch of ‘nuts’ for supporting Dennis Kucinich, and is now on his typical ‘we hate Barack Obama!’ rant because he feels HIS rights are trampled on. Of course, this will haunt him in the future when President Obama does manage to find the time to tackle DOMA & DADT! He’ll look like a fool as usual.
June 21st, 2009 at 2:18 pm106.ralph the wonder locust Says: Those particular posters don’t help their case, either, when they insist that anyone who doesn’t buy the same view that they embrace are “morons”, “cowards”, “tragically uninformed” and so on.
Let’s understand, Ralph; you want to characterize people based on how they respond to your unwarranted attacks. On the slapfight thread, your first response to me was provocative sarcasm. Not to engage in a discussion of the posted issues.
I agreed with an earlier post at #113 which was confined to the issues.
You can sling all the smears you want, but you fired the first salvo at me rather than engage me or even the subject of my post. Same with stinkbug. In fact, it was the same with kdgamergirl, who refers to people as whiny brats and morons first, but oddly, she doesn’t get “the treatment.” You well earned any hostility you received as a direct result of your first reply to me.
You own the acrimony you started, Ralph, and the fact that you try to disingenuously characterize and smear those who simply give better than they get does qualify you as a no-balls coward.
Anythime you want to go toe-to-toe in a debate…and you grow the cojones, I’ll be happy to oblige you, but your lying about the course of events is blatantly craven.
June 21st, 2009 at 2:36 pmOk, we’re five months out, and it’s fair to assess Obama’s progress so far. (Anyone with others, feel free to add to the list.) Perhaps this would be a better way of reconciling the two factions that have arisen in the last election:
Positive decisions/acts:
1. Promised to close Gitmo – is in process of transferring prisoners out;
2. Transitioning troops from Iraq – is moving troops out at a moderated pace;
3. Healthcare reform that includes a public option is still being pushed by the administration, and with the backing of democrats in the House;
4. Enacts plan to save struggling homeowners, with limited success;
5. Pushes congress to increase unemployment benefits, congress complies.
Negative decisions/acts:
1. Promised to end FISA abuses – Fisa abuses given retroactive immunity;
2. Promised to hold accountable those who approved of torture, later backtracked;
3. DODT still in force;
4. Doma still defended by Obama DOJ;
5. Continues Bush era faith-based initiatives;
6. AIG bailout, complete with executive bonuses intact;
This is just the starter, to get others to contribute, and in no way represents the results in total.
June 21st, 2009 at 2:44 pmHere is a great article about you’re President B.O….no need to thank me for posting it guys and wanna be guys…and it’s from one of your own news rags too…
cah2k Says:
The gay community has been quite patient with the administration and fully understands the need to address the big issues facing the president and the nation.
what choice do they have? It’s not like more than the 21% hard corp liberals give a damn about them anyways. They should go back and hide under the rocks they crawled out from under.
June 21st, 2009 at 2:49 pmNegative decisions/acts:
Not following through with transparency promise.
Obama blocked access to visitor logs.
Invoked state secrets to foil lawsuits.
Voted for telecom immunity.
Blocked access to torture photos.
Expressed little interest in pursuing bush crimes. (this is not redundant; his view is integral to the direction his administration takes.)
Not restored Habeas Corpus.
Bagram.
The insanity of “preventative detention.”
Blocked recovery of bush emails first full day in office.
Of course, these do not occupy the same urgency, but there are some issues that I believe directly relate to America’s soul and to delay addressing them conclusively or authoritatively doesn’t bode well for the perception or the viability of the course of the new administration.
Again, the people whose information I trust: CREW, ACLU, Greenwald, etc., most of whom have public policy experience, have to a greater or lesser degree issued concern and red flags based on the caliber of attention many of these issues has received.
June 21st, 2009 at 2:58 pmhanshiro the antlion Says:
Ok, now for an impartiality exercise, can you also add to the positive list, and prove you’re not simply biased?
June 21st, 2009 at 3:03 pmInvoked state secrets to foil lawsuits.
Blocked recovery of bush emails first full day in office.
Isn’t this the same one?
June 21st, 2009 at 3:06 pmThanks for the encouraging response, David.
To the TP crowd, sorry that my post @ June 21st, 2009 at 2:22 am (#25) caused a racket. It was an admission of weakness of mine that I consider to be minor and doesn’t subtract from my fullest support of gay/lesbian rights in society. The point I was trying to put across was that regardless of one’s personal views and preferences, there is no right to make a good people feel unwelcome. The rule of law is the common denominator, not popularity contests or one group’s mood toward another. No disadvantaged group should rely on hopes that the “social free market” will sort itself out before having an equitable society to live.
And while I don’t expect that anyone take sides, if I were a first time poster making that comment, I would get the impression that the TP community doesn’t support open dialog because of one puny, ever arrogant, grudge-holding poster in RHF.
Thankfully, I’ve been around long enough to know that TP is the king of robust debate, able to absorb the small ticks.
June 21st, 2009 at 3:06 pmAnd the little puny shithead makes his return, his arrogance so deep and welted, he believes he can read minds and color a rainbow with black-and-white markers.
June 21st, 2009 at 3:12 pmSometimes I do want to characterize people that way, when their behavior here justifies it. And “unwarranted attacks”? Geez… sounds almost like you’re playing the victim card. But you wouldn’t do that… you’ve got too much cojones, eh?
Fine. Why do you suppose that my response was sarcasm?
I know it suits your purpose to assume that it’s because I didn’t want to “engage in a discussion of the posted issues” but I think most people here recognize I don’t shy away from such discussions. In truth, my response was a sarcastic take on what I saw as your overheated rhetoric. At the point I joined the discussion, it really didn’t seem like the issues were going to be discussed in a reasonable manner. Yet someone who truly wanted to discuss the issues, rather than simply insist that he was right and everyone else was wrong, might have been able to absorb the cutting blow of sarcasm and rise above it.
Yet your rhetoric routinely included such name-calling and demonization as I described above. I was hardly the only one who disagreed with you, nor was I the only one to be so denigrated. It quickly became part of your standard approach.
Huh. You agreed with the other poster who was saying the exact same thing as you. Wow. I had no idea you were THAT open to reasonable debate. I stand corrected.
(That was sarcasm, again. Sorry. I know now how much it upsets you.)
Well, you can call them “smears” if you want, but you really can’t deny your habit of name-calling in service of your argument. But obviously you feel like you CAN blame your name-calling on me. So, I guess it’s my fault entirely.
I have no idea why Shayne doesn’t take your arguments seriously. You certainly treat her, and all of us, with plenty of respect.
Once again, your behavior is our fault. Got it.
And a third time — our fault.
You do like to state and re-state your points, don’t you? I notice you like to re-use your go-to insults too. I guess it works for you, or you wouldn’t stay with that tactic. huh?
And… hanshiro concludes his argument by claiming some sort of victory based entirely on his assessment of my character, reinforced by yet one more accusation of cowardice — but since it’s been established that my own behavior forced hanshiro to resort to such tactics, no worries for hanshiro.
You’ve really done yourself proud, hanshiro.
June 21st, 2009 at 3:13 pm116. barfly Says:
Invoked state secrets to foil lawsuits.
Blocked recovery of bush emails first full day in office.
Isn’t this the same one?
No. Obama has invoked the state secrets for the emails and rendition and more I believe as well (via Greenwald):
June 21st, 2009 at 3:15 pm
Positive decisions/acts:
1. Promised to close Gitmo – is in process of transferring prisoners out;
2. Transitioning troops from Iraq – is moving troops out at a moderated pace;
3. Healthcare reform that includes a public option is still being pushed by the administration, and with the backing of democrats in the House;
4. Enacts plan to save struggling homeowners, with limited success;
5. Pushes congress to increase unemployment benefits, congress complies.
6. Orders DOJ to de-emphasise marijuana prosecutions, in states with medical marijuana laws.
Negative decisions/acts:
1. Promised to end FISA abuses – Fisa abuses given retroactive immunity;
2. Promised to hold accountable those who approved of torture, later backtracked;
3. DODT still in force;
4. Doma still defended by Obama DOJ;
5. Continues Bush era faith-based initiatives;
6. AIG bailout, complete with executive bonuses intact;
7. Promises to restore habeus corpus – habeus still not restored;
8. Invokes state secrets in ways that defeat his claims to transparency; (I’ve combined a few that were of the same logical grouping.)
9. Continues with Bush-era “preventative detentions;” (Although to be fair, he is slowly moving out the detainees.)
June 21st, 2009 at 3:17 pmA drama queen keeps firing even after the cease-fire has been issued. That’s a person you know enjoys conflict.
June 21st, 2009 at 3:18 pmEh Ralph it’s not worth the time. Just more whining. You’re too good for that.
June 21st, 2009 at 3:20 pmNo. Obama has invoked the state secrets for the emails and rendition and more I believe as well (via Greenwald):
Not what I meant. “Invoked state secrets to foil lawsuits.” Should be the overarching charge, with the others such as rendition as subheadings to the overarching charge.
And you still haven’t listed a positive, one that I haven’t already listed. You wouldn’t want us to think you’re so blinded by rancor that you can’t find one, do you?
June 21st, 2009 at 3:22 pm122.ralph the wonder locust Says: Fine. Why do you suppose that my response was sarcasm?
Doesn’t matter why you decided to be a sarcastic prick. You opened that door then cried when you got slapped around. You started it Ralph, and in typical cowardly fashion, you write a windy post to try to exonerate yourself rather than admit the damning evidence.
I posted issues, you decided to be a petulant dou(hebag based on nothing.
I know it suits your purpose to assume that it’s because I didn’t want to “engage in a discussion of the posted issues” but I think most people here recognize I don’t shy away from such discussions.
Again, you didn’t attempt to engage to find out, you acted on an asinine presumption, indulged your weakness and rancor, then try to make some lame-ass case that it’s somehow my fault that you acted like a sarcastic prick.
In truth, my response was a sarcastic take on what I saw as your overheated rhetoric. At the point I joined the discussion, it really didn’t seem like the issues were going to be discussed in a reasonable manner.
So, you’re at fault. Doesn’t matter whether you believed the discussion was going to be reasonable or not, you jumped in, started antagonizing, along with stinkbug and whats-her-name, and then tried to blame me for fully and deservedly slapping you around.
You really are a coward.
June 21st, 2009 at 3:26 pmPositive decisions/acts:
1. Promised to close Gitmo – is in process of transferring prisoners out;
2. Transitioning troops from Iraq – is moving troops out at a moderated pace;
3. Healthcare reform that includes a public option is still being pushed by the administration, and with the backing of democrats in the House;
4. Enacts plan to save struggling homeowners, with limited success;
5. Pushes congress to increase unemployment benefits, congress complies.
6. Orders DOJ to de-emphasise marijuana prosecutions, in states with medical marijuana laws.
Negative decisions/acts:
1. Promised to end FISA abuses – Fisa abuses given retroactive immunity;
2. Promised to hold accountable those who approved of torture, later backtracked;
3. DODT still in force;
4. Doma still defended by Obama DOJ;
5. Continues Bush era faith-based initiatives;
6. AIG bailout, complete with executive bonuses intact;
7. Promises to restore habeus corpus – habeus still not restored;
8. Invokes state secrets in ways that defeat his claims to transparency; (I’ve combined a few that were of the same logical grouping.): a. rendition; b. torture photos; c. …
9. Continues with Bush-era “preventative detentions;” (Although to be fair, he is slowly moving out the detainees.)
I’ve changed negative 8, to reflect the subheading change.
June 21st, 2009 at 3:28 pmC’mon guys, if this is an Obama piss fight, let’s see who gets wettest! List any positives or negatives that I’ve missed (with a number affixed, as in the previous examples) and we’ll see in sharp detail which side has the longest squirter. i don’t really have a dog in this, I’m just curious to objectively see, at this point, if Obama has been charting well, or badly, with our little band of castaways, by the numbers.
June 21st, 2009 at 3:33 pmI can understand how this might seem like homework to some, but this argumentation has been going back and forth, with many egregious charges and counter-charges, and say what you will (and many do) about Hanshiro, at least he took a swing at defending his assertion, even if he ran away from listing an Obama positive, and showing he’s more issues oriented than personality-driven. Can no one put forth any positives, for their chosen president?
June 21st, 2009 at 3:39 pm127.barfly Says:
Not what I meant. “Invoked state secrets to foil lawsuits.” Should be the overarching charge, with the others such as rendition as subheadings to the overarching charge.
Not necessarily. The issues I bring to the fore also involve his choice of cases to defend. He invoked state secrets to block the bush emails lawsuit and again to foil the rendition lawsuits. Yes, I’m doing this from memory so semantics is not my chief concern, but the variety and choice of blocks due to state secrets is a big issue; particularly in light of the specific but fading promise of “transparency.”
And you still haven’t listed a positive, one that I haven’t already listed. You wouldn’t want us to think you’re so blinded by rancor that you can’t find one, do you?
barfly, I can list more than you can, so quit being a patronizing @sshole. I’ve had to babysit Ralph the Wonder Liar. Knock off the condescension.
Positives:
Credit Card Bill of Rights
Loan Programs for small business
SCHIP
Cuba rights
Women’s pay discrimination
Get his kids a puppy
Stem cell research restrictions.
June 21st, 2009 at 3:39 pm132.barfly Says: I can understand how this might seem like homework to some, but this argumentation has been going back and forth, with many egregious charges and counter-charges, and say what you will (and many do) about Hanshiro, at least he took a swing at defending his assertion, even if he ran away from listing an Obama positive, and showing he’s more issues oriented than personality-driven.
I’ll take that retraction now….not holding breath here either…
June 21st, 2009 at 3:45 pmWell, I’ll look in from time to time, and add to both lists (see, I’m not afraid to do that), as things occur to me. But it would be a truly sad statement, if regulars, who read these news items every day, and have no excuse for their ignorance, were to duck this challenge I have issued to both Obama supporters and detractors.
June 21st, 2009 at 3:45 pmKnock off the condescension.
Oh ho, that’s rich.
Your long worded reply was beat by my posting if you’ll notice the timestamp, so at the time, you hadn’t responded, so no apology necessary.
But thanks for adding to the list. I’m going out for a bit, but I’ll update what I have, with what you’ve provided, shortly. Thanks for at least making the attempt.
June 21st, 2009 at 3:51 pm136.barfly Says: Your long worded reply was beat by my posting if you’ll notice the timestamp, so at the time, you hadn’t responded, so no apology necessary.
Yeah, it is since your post was condescending, provocative and presumptuous. The ‘rancor’ bit was meant to be patronizing.
There was more than ‘attempt,’ I listed several. It doesn’t seem to occur to the ‘Ralph clique’ and his fauxgressives that if you start throwing sh¡t and being a condescending prick you should expect to get slapped around.
June 21st, 2009 at 3:58 pmIt is sort of humorous in a sad sort of way…
June 21st, 2009 at 4:00 pm136.barfly Says: Your long worded reply was beat by my posting if you’ll notice the timestamp, so at the time, you hadn’t responded, so no apology necessary.
Not to mention the fact that I was also busy answering your other question of clarification on state secrets.
June 21st, 2009 at 4:04 pmralph as a clique?
June 21st, 2009 at 4:05 pmIs our posters learning yet?
—
June 21st, 2009 at 4:07 pm8:29AM….
141.dbadass Says: Is our posters learning yet?
Prognosis negative…
(guess all the emnity from the slapfight thread after my last post there doesn’t count, eh? Funny how that works, Mr. ‘Manners Advocate.’)
June 21st, 2009 at 4:12 pmI think they might find the self appointed instructor lacking in some ways based on the feedback…
June 21st, 2009 at 4:17 pmyou are *all* bein’ a bunch of damn babies!
June 21st, 2009 at 4:54 pmThank you..
Sesli Chat
June 22nd, 2009 at 2:21 amSesli Sohbet
Sesli Chat
Sesli Sohbet
Seslikent
SesliChat
SesliSohbet
The frustration is not for slow motion, but for apparent lack of any motion at all.
June 22nd, 2009 at 10:44 amMcWars – I too had to “get used to it.” Anyone bashing you just hasn’t thought about the fact that upbringing is strong, and one has to “relearn” things. I find your honesty very refreshing.
And, honestly, I can’t believe anyone still reads RHF. I think I started scrolling by my first day here, over a year ago.
June 22nd, 2009 at 12:24 pmSesli Chat
Sesli sohbet
Thanks
June 27th, 2009 at 4:22 pm