OMB advises veto of defense authorization if it contains F-22 funding.
OMB advises veto of defense authorization if it contains F-22 funding.
Last week, the House Armed Services Committee reinstated funding for the F-22, over the objections of the Pentagon and the White House, by eliminating funding for nuclear waste cleanup. (Rep. Barney Frank [D-MA] has introduced an amendment eliminating the money for the F-22.) Today, the Office of Management and Budget issued a Statement of Administrative Policy recommending a veto if the bill contains the F-22 funding:
F-22 Advance Procurement: The Administration strongly objects to the provisions in the bill authorizing $369 million in advanced procurement funds for F-22s in FY 2011. The collective judgment of the Service Chiefs and Secretaries of the military departments suggests that a final program of record of 187 F-22s is sufficient to meet operational requirements. If the final bill presented to the President contains this provision, the President’s senior advisors would recommend a veto.
This afternoon on MSNBC, VoteVets Chairman Jon Soltz debated Rep. Phil Gingrey (R-GA), who proclaimed, “We absolutely need 381 of these planes, and not 187.” Soltz called the claim “ridiculous,” and argued that military funds should be spent on troops on the ground:
It’s about how we spend our money. The Congressman cares about the Lockheed Martin stock price, and I care about the men and women who fight on the ground. And this weapon system does nothing for us.
Watch it:
Topic Cloud
ArchivesBlog Roll
We have great soldiers on our side. (Thanks Soltz for speaking truth one more time in the face of the right wing morons!)
June 24th, 2009 at 6:07 pmThat Soltz is a badger who knows how the work the 3-minute segment like no one else.
June 24th, 2009 at 6:07 pmI bet FreeMarketLiberal is a fake and a fraud. Anyone agree? He’s just using a screenname like that in the hopes that if he hangs out here long enough using that name, we’ll all believe that there are liberals out there who grab ahold of the Capitalist Pig’s policies!
June 24th, 2009 at 6:08 pmyes – there is other news, so thanks for posting.
Here’s another important one:
North Korea threatens to wipe out US ‘once and for all’
That should open a few eyes and jaws. And please, remember, it was the repug/neocon/chimpy failed policies that brought them into the nuclear age to begin with!
June 24th, 2009 at 6:09 pmFML: The fecal matter that are your words of wisdom are absolute rubbish and worthless. Your juvenile points and gradeschool rants fit nicely with the Beck/Limbaugh/Oreilly crowd, but not amongst an informed and educated crowd of thoughtful bloggers. You don’t belong here. You belong posting on forums which don’t know history or current events (Redstate?). The world is on fire due to fools such as yourself – preening around appearing as though you have any valid answers for any GOP created disaster. You have none. Your party has none. Your future has none – but still you show up to illustrate exactly why your party is the smallish, regional cult it has become. I understand pride manifests itself through many indications, but for you to express any modicum of glee for the many failures of the conservative movement is astounding. But here you are.
June 24th, 2009 at 6:12 pmDid Rush Limbaugh serve in Vietnam? Oh wait! He’s just like all the right wingers! He had a medical issue (ass boil) and apparently couldn’t hold a gun!
More examples of right wing frauds…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JX5cqG4iJQY
June 24th, 2009 at 6:13 pmYou should go hide in your basement like you did when George Bush told you that Saddam Hussein was going to attack us in 45 minutes in the form of a mushroom cloud.
June 24th, 2009 at 6:13 pmwe need 500 of them. this cutting in national airpower is monumentally unacceptable.
June 24th, 2009 at 6:13 pmSo, you know more than the Pentagon does on these planes? If so, please provide a power point show detailing why spending money on this is more important than spending it on our soldiers. Thanks pal. (Oh wait, did I say ‘pal’? I meant to say, “Thanks All Knowing Neocon”!) Spit.
June 24th, 2009 at 6:15 pmkayinmaine = weak on national security.
June 24th, 2009 at 6:17 pmIf Gingrey wanted to save jobs in GA, he should have voted for the stimulus. His wanting to save the production of jobs to build a plane we don’t need is @$$-backward behavior.
June 24th, 2009 at 6:17 pmThe congressman and his buddies will financially profit from building this useless thing. In the meantime, they will assume their perches of righteousness to deliver God’s displeasure with the public option in health care.
Repiggies are amazing creatures to behold – utterly shameless and fiercely stupid.
June 24th, 2009 at 6:17 pmI ***STILL*** don’t get it.
The military doesn’t want it
The OMB doesn’t want it
The President doesn’t want it
So other than the people who are gonna build it and the people that have taken money from them, who wants it ?
June 24th, 2009 at 6:17 pmTypical…even the pentagon says they don’t need any more…not mentioning that the diverted nuclear clean up funds are going to dissappear…but the rethugs just gotta have em….
June 24th, 2009 at 6:17 pmObama – VETO the darn thing!
June 24th, 2009 at 6:19 pmThere seems to be no money for the people, but there is always money for obsolete warcraft! Just say NO!
the pentagon didn’t say anything on the matter. the obama nerd running OMB made the request.
June 24th, 2009 at 6:19 pma liberal will never know what the pentagon needs. it’s laughable they even claim to know. they’re all a bunch of pretenders.
June 24th, 2009 at 6:20 pmYes, they did GOPsy –
June 24th, 2009 at 6:20 pm….objections of the Pentagon. Read, and look it up if you don’t believe TP.
Apparently the trolls know more than the Pentagon — or at least they think they do — that’s what happens when one listens to Fox, Lintball et al. one gets to believing that they’re omniscient.
June 24th, 2009 at 6:21 pmTrolls know everything — just ask them.
It’s about how we spend our money. The Congressman cares about the Lockheed Martin stock price, and I care about the men and women who fight on the ground. And this weapon system does nothing for us.
Good on Solz and Frank! My goodness! GOPer hypocrisy at work again! All that jabber about wasteful spending and now they want 369 million dollars wasted on F-22s that are not being used?! OH HELL NO!
Go get them Barney Frank – block them at every turn! Marginalize the damn GOP! Until they grow a brain and some integrity decrease their power!
June 24th, 2009 at 6:22 pmI bet you’ve got a crap load of plastic and duct tape in your basement after Rumsfeld told you to be scared of the biological boogeyman.
“Thanks to George Bush the next 9/11 attack won’t be a surprise” ~ my favorite protest sign seen near the Bush Compound in Kennebunkport, Maine
June 24th, 2009 at 6:22 pmOh wow, we were just saying the same thing about one of your neck drooling buddies up thread! He said we need 500 of these planes and the Pentagon says they don’t want to spend one red cent on them.
NEOCONS ARE IDIOTS.
June 24th, 2009 at 6:24 pmpull all the quotes out of your ass you want. you’re still weak on national security.
June 24th, 2009 at 6:24 pmIt’s time to invite the neocons down to Jonestown. What do you say my fellow liberals? We’ll make it green koolaid this time!
June 24th, 2009 at 6:25 pmThis is at the heart of the matter and at the heart of most of the troubles with our government. This is why I say that all members of Congress should be banned from participating in ANY financial transactions while in office, including real estate, stocks, bonds, everything.
All current holdings are confiscated, liquidated, and transferred to the US Treasury. Your current bills, which would be severely limited since you live in a barracks or dormitory with all other congress people, would be paid by your small salary. And when you leave office, your given a small severance to restart your private life, during which you will be monitored to make sure you do not profit from any legislation you drafted or supported.
June 24th, 2009 at 6:25 pmno katyinmaine, can’t take your advise – afraid I will bump my head or something and, because of dem inaction, won’t be able to get any healthcare.
Say how’s that ol’ geezer fred anyhow?
June 24th, 2009 at 6:26 pmyou’re worried about them not being used? use them to destruct the regimes of north korea and iran. bomb the government buildings and ahmedinejad’s cave. stop being doves with our precious defense resources.
June 24th, 2009 at 6:27 pmKayInMaine Says:
——————————————————————————–
It’s time to invite the neocons down to Jonestown. What do you say my fellow liberals? We’ll make it green koolaid this time
Yes green koolaid indeed!
June 24th, 2009 at 6:27 pmIt’s not obsolete. It’s state of the art and obscenely expensive.
June 24th, 2009 at 6:27 pmWhat happened to the prime directive (per the GOP) that we must “listen to the generals on the ground”???
June 24th, 2009 at 6:28 pmAwwww, you’re just embarrassed by the fact that you’d rather spend $369 MILLION on planes against the wishes of the Pentagon, because you don’t want that money to be spent on the kids of our soldiers. Spending money on kids makes you break out in a rash and you start stabbing yourselves in the stomach with butter knives, huh troll!!!!
And you wonder why there’s on 20% registered republicans in our nation at the moment. They’re running from ya!!!!!
June 24th, 2009 at 6:29 pmFreeMarketLiberal Says:
StreetRat-
your obvious partisan comment just proves that you are so far Jonestown left that I dont think the koolade will ever wear off from your cemented linear thinking brain. I guess polls showing that Independents are running from your “Chicago Thug in Chief” doesnt matter.
You don’t matter. Your words don’t matter. Your thoughts don’t matter. You don’t belong in any forum which requires an IQ above 60. I am trying to be as clear as I can.
I simply wanted to educate you on the many ways you discount your ‘thoughtful’ commentary. You discount it with your dismal logic and your flimsy patriotism. You discount it with your many redundant and disconnected posts. If you are trying to inform us as to your beliefs and hope in America – you fail miserably. On the other hand, if your goal is to show us what the right side is capable of – Mission Accomplished! We never expect anything valid from you, and up to now, none of us has been disappointed. Why stay where your thoughts and words are made fun of? Is it the thuggish GOP mentality – to stay where you are not wanted?
June 24th, 2009 at 6:31 pmHow many planes does our military currently have and is that number more than the amount of bombs we currently have? You’re an expert on these things, so look forward to your expertise.
June 24th, 2009 at 6:32 pmthe great GOPsby Says:
If you want to disagree, get your facts straight. Robert Gates cut the program back in April when he submitted his 2010 budget.
The F-22 is an air to air combat plane, not a bomber, idiot. It has not been used since 1991. Good Grief.
June 24th, 2009 at 6:34 pmWhere was the Bush Regime on national security when 9/11 happened? And where were they when Fort Detrick at the command of Dick Cheney sent anthrax out to our fellow citizens? Huh? Anyone know what these experts did or were doing?
And by the way, what was Dick Cheney doing when the Saudi royals were cutting checks to “al-Qaida” (means ‘The Base’. TRANSLATION: BASE OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY)? Depositing them or was he holding hands with the King at the time?…
http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/24/the-delicate-balancing-act-of-war-crimes/
June 24th, 2009 at 6:35 pmthe great GOPsby Says:
pull all the quotes out of your ass you want. you’re still weak on national security.
You’re right. We need more GROUND FORCES.
Why don’t you enlist and do something useful?
June 24th, 2009 at 6:37 pmHave the neocons explained to us why our nation will fold like a deck of cards if we don’t have these planes? *scanning thread* Nope. Figures. *rolling eyes*
June 24th, 2009 at 6:40 pmthe great GOPsby Says:
Trajan, please explain to us why you’re a chicken-hawk and are too cowardly to serve your country?
Why do you want to start wars that you are afraid to fight?
June 24th, 2009 at 6:40 pmliberals would learn a real thing about productivity if they enlist. i’m tired of them bumming around.
June 24th, 2009 at 6:42 pmwe would think higher of you if you did something worthy for your country. you can win our hearts by enlisting. go to the nearest office. do it now.
June 24th, 2009 at 6:44 pmstart ww iii i don’t give a shit. liberals can make themselve useful and fight for my country.
June 24th, 2009 at 6:45 pmthe great GOPsby Says:
Trajan, you didn’t answer my question @42
June 24th, 2009 at 6:48 pmliberal, go enlist. and maybe you’ll learn to appreciate the necessity of an ongoing operation. i already do.
June 24th, 2009 at 6:52 pmKay in Maine
Republican American’s have a God-given right to their own F-22’s to personally protect them against North Korea and Darwinists.
Why can’t you see the slippery slope that canceling the wonderful F-22 will lead us all down? Anyone with any sense knows that if Dick Cheney hadn’t halted the B-2 then Uighurs wouldn’t be vacationing in Bermuda eight now!
How is Sarah Palin going to protect her daughter from rooskies without an F-22?
See, you have to THINK THINGS THROUGH and CONNECT THE DOTS!
June 24th, 2009 at 6:52 pmCut out our bloated “Dept. of Imperialism” budget in half.
O/T: “Happy Argentinian trails to you, until we meet again…”
June 24th, 2009 at 6:53 pmi’m ordering all of you to stop recommending posts that address me in a condecsending tone.
June 24th, 2009 at 6:53 pmGOPsby is too young to enlist. He’ll only be coming around at night when school starts.
June 24th, 2009 at 6:54 pmCut out our bloated “Dept. of Imperialism” budget in half.
————————————————————
NO!
June 24th, 2009 at 6:58 pmface it, imperialism creates jobs, buys luxury condos and single family homes in exclusive communities and provides for a thriving stock market and national defense. it is the most holistic form of economy.
June 24th, 2009 at 7:00 pmBig news that can’t be overshadowed today:
Public health plan could save money faster: policy group
Don’t let dems or repugs get away with the lie “we can’t afford meaningful change”
Fact is, as a nation, we cannot afford to NOT have meaningful change.
June 24th, 2009 at 7:00 pmit is the most holistic form of economy.
No, it is the main reason why the United States is 11 trillion dollars in debt.
June 24th, 2009 at 7:02 pmFrankly I’m disappointed that the great GOPsby insists on trashing the F-15E Eagle and other fine comabt aircraft in the USAF inventory.
I really don’t think it is fair on the pilots who CAN and DO fly combat missions in their F-15s and F-16s, whilst the F-22’s get all of GOPsby’s attention even though they aren’t ALLOWED to fly in a hot zone, even when they CAN get off the ground after maintenance periods several times longer than F-15s.
June 24th, 2009 at 7:04 pmif the obama opposes it, anything, i mean anything, will get a big no from me.
please don’t ask why, doing so only emboldens the terrorists.
June 24th, 2009 at 7:08 pmGlad to see someone from MD is in the spotlight for doing something decent. I feel a little better now.
Also seems another joe has quit his complaining for a while. I appreciate that.
June 24th, 2009 at 7:09 pmthe great GOPsby Says:
“i’m ordering all of you to stop recommending posts that address me in a condecsending tone.”
yessir, GOPsbeyotch
June 24th, 2009 at 7:11 pmtoo bad the great POOPsby is here in yet another form.
June 24th, 2009 at 7:11 pm“Also seems another joe has quit his complaining for a while. I appreciate that.”
No kidding, and he’s even provided some thoughtful posts.
Who hi-jacked his alias?
June 24th, 2009 at 7:13 pmShadowBoxer Says:
too bad the great POOPsby is here in yet another form.
———————–
don’t you address me in that tone of voice young man. here in south carolina, where parental liberty reigns supreme, we smack the yellow off the unruly’s teeth.
June 24th, 2009 at 7:14 pmKayInMaine @ # 8 that’s the funniest shyt I’ve read all day. I’m in tears with laughter.
June 24th, 2009 at 7:17 pmShadowBoxer Says:
too bad the great POOPsby is here in yet another form.
———————–
don’t you address me in that tone of voice young man. here in south carolina, where parental liberty reigns supreme, we smack the yellow off the unruly’s teeth.
WTF, dude? You make no sense, for a change. But, I could use a free teeth whitening. My insurance provider won’t cover it.
And, sorry to burst your fantasy bubble of tapping at me in an airport restroom, I’m not a young man….
June 24th, 2009 at 7:18 pmBozo The Neoclown Says:
the great GOPsby Says:
“i’m ordering all of you to stop recommending posts that address me in a condecsending tone.”
yessir, GOPsbeyotch
I highly recommend this post.
June 24th, 2009 at 7:18 pmAnother Joe,
Sorry, you have your information all WRONG. You can thank a DEMOCRAT for that, my friend!
June 24th, 2009 at 7:18 pmthe great GOPsby Says:
if the obama opposes it, anything, i mean anything, will get a big no from me.
please don’t ask why, doing so only emboldens the terrorists.
June 24th, 2009 at 7:19 pm==========
Great that means anything Obama is for you will agree?
“Also seems another joe has quit his complaining for a while. I appreciate that.”
No kidding, and he’s even provided some thoughtful posts.
Who hi-jacked his alias?
Perhaps he adjusted his meds. Or, more hopefully, he has realized he was wrong about his views of us. I won’t expect him to admit any such thing, but will re-state the fact that I appreciate it. Sincerely, AJ, if you’re around still.
June 24th, 2009 at 7:20 pmTim Vaculik Says:
Sorry, you have your information all WRONG. You can thank a DEMOCRAT for that, my friend!
June 24th, 2009 at 7:18 pm
———————————-
i second that! how dare the democrat commander-in-chief from texas destabilize the middle east during the eight years he was in office!
June 24th, 2009 at 7:25 pmthe great GOPsby Says:
pull all the quotes out of your ass you want. you’re still weak on national security.
June 24th, 2009 at 7:27 pm===============
I see Rush is been up there digging around your a$$ again?
“Marginalize the damn GOP! Until they grow a brain and some integrity decrease their power!”
But, but, that would mean that evolution is real!
June 24th, 2009 at 7:27 pmIf only America had some F-22’s on 9/11.
Or at Oklahoma City.
Or in Iraq yesterday.
June 24th, 2009 at 7:30 pmThis procurement of F-22 funding is a direct assault on Obama from McCain. VoteVets Chairman Jon Soltz you get mucho kudos from me and your absolutely correct our troops need to be better protected on the ground vs. the air since most extremist Muslim countries are ground forces vs. air.
June 24th, 2009 at 7:32 pmthe great GOPsby Says:
pull all the quotes out of your ass you want.
June 24th, 2009 at 6:24 pm
“Last week, the House Armed Services Committee reinstated funding for the F-22, over the objections of the Pentagon…”
The Great GOBspit thinks the Pentagon is located in Kay’s ass?
June 24th, 2009 at 7:37 pmJane E. Schneider
What is wrong with the NY State legislature?
June 24th, 2009 at 7:38 pmCould the F-22 frenzy by repubs be in light of the fact that there may be “war” with N. Korea? I read that there is no threat from them and that it’s being trumped up by the U.S. McCain has called for boarding the Kang Nam reguardless of whether we have permission.
Thank. Jezzis. He’s. Not. President.
June 24th, 2009 at 7:40 pmthe great GOPsby Says:
we would think higher of you if you did something worthy for your country. you can win our hearts by enlisting. go to the nearest office. do it now.
June 24th, 2009 at 7:41 pm=========
And we would think highly of you if you STFU and leave.
Ranus, although we’ve had plenty of Democratic Governors, the NY State legislature has historically been overwhelmingly (and corruptly) Republican.
Why do you ask, did I miss something?
June 24th, 2009 at 7:43 pmTim Vaculik Says:
Sorry, you have your information all WRONG. You can thank a DEMOCRAT for that, my friend!
June 24th, 2009 at 7:43 pm=========
How so?
Gopsby, Oh boy, here’s another tough guy. Hey tough guy! who did you serve with and when? What was your MOS, service#, unit and were did you serve? I’m betting you can’t answer any of those questions.
June 24th, 2009 at 7:45 pmAngels81, let me answer for POOPsby.
“I am employee number 0214, and I served on the burger flipping unit, until I was promoted to drive thru. This was in a rough area that can’t be disclosed, but it was in a building with large arches, in the bible belt. Thanks for asking.”
June 24th, 2009 at 7:51 pmthe great GOPsby Says:
face it, imperialism creates jobs, buys luxury condos and single family homes in exclusive communities and provides for a thriving stock market and national defense. it is the most holistic form of economy.
June 24th, 2009 at 7:00 pm
The Great GOBspit is batshit insane.
Flag and move on.
June 24th, 2009 at 7:52 pmAnd I mean not to mock anyone’s REAL service. My family is serving/has served.
June 24th, 2009 at 7:52 pmHasn’t Lockheed and Martin made enough gizzions? The troops deserve more. They should have proper medical care and armor. Period.
June 24th, 2009 at 7:53 pmShadowBoxer, thanks for the laugh.
June 24th, 2009 at 7:54 pmDo I have to Jane? I haven’t even belittled them yet. Eh, it is not really worth wasting my gift…
June 24th, 2009 at 7:54 pmdbadass, have at him, then. I’ve been working on it, but I don’t have your ‘gift.’
June 24th, 2009 at 8:00 pm“I am employee number 0214, and I served on the burger flipping unit, until I was promoted to drive thru. This was in a rough area that can’t be disclosed, but it was in a building with large arches, in the bible belt. Thanks for asking.”
————————
you’re just jealous that you can’t get a job with our wonder defense industry. that’s why you use projection.
June 24th, 2009 at 8:02 pmGopsby, Oh boy, here’s another tough guy. Hey tough guy! who did you serve with and when? What was your MOS, service#, unit and were did you serve? I’m betting you can’t answer any of those questions.
————————–
you need to appreciate a national defense like i do. therefore it is imperative that you enlist so you can demonstrate that you’re a appreciative american to me and other established great americans.
June 24th, 2009 at 8:05 pmHi the great GOPsby.
June 24th, 2009 at 8:07 pmMy name is dbadass and I will be owning you this evening. Can I offer you a drink or shall we move right to the specials I have for you this evening?
gopspy. hey tough guy, I served my country. RA 169-75-774, 25th infantry Div, 2nd of the 27th wolfhounds, Cu Chi- 67-68, MOS 11 bravo. How about you tough guy?
June 24th, 2009 at 8:10 pmyou’re just jealous that you can’t get a job with our wonder defense industry. that’s why you use projection.
No POOPsboy,
I don’t hunger for making things designed to kill people.
Speaking of hungry, if it was making WONDER bread for the defense industry, maybe I’d be jealous and project.
Speaking of projects, that wonder bread would go great with the burgers you’ve been flippin’.
Shall we team up?
June 24th, 2009 at 8:11 pmI see you are still deciding. Might I suggest the whine special this evening? We have a lovely Argentinian malbec which is especially suited to frauds and posers. Lame ass attention seekers seem to really enjoy it as well. It starts out fruitty and finishes distinct nutty…
June 24th, 2009 at 8:14 pmdbadass,
I have a suspicion that the self-styled great GOPsbyis none other than Michelle Bachmann in blog form—the patterns of emphatic baseless flash-card inspired argument and random irrelevant counterpoint are remarkably similar in form to the utterances of the aforementioned Minnesota Representative.
June 24th, 2009 at 8:17 pmthis is america. liberals say “off limits! i’m guaranteed that luxury, and you can’t have it!, and conservatives say, “i like your ambition! this is the land of opportunity and you can be anything you want to be!”
liberals clearly should be deported to their fitting country. from there they’ll be more comfortable telling america how they really feel about her, and drawing the ire of our advanced military.
June 24th, 2009 at 8:18 pmthe defense industry pays $3K+ a month mortgages. lib industries can’t do that.
June 24th, 2009 at 8:18 pmdbadass:
Are you aware that GOPsby and one of his henchman were outed in real life by Charles Johnson at Little Green Footballs?
Trajan is so deranged he now accuses LGF of being a far left-wing marxist blog. The meth has pretty much messed up the last two functioning brain cells.
June 24th, 2009 at 8:19 pmgopsby, tough guy, you such a pussy you can’t answer my questions? I told you who I served with, your a big red white and blue guy, so who and when did you serve this great country?
June 24th, 2009 at 8:21 pmReggie:
June 24th, 2009 at 8:23 pmI know bits and pieces of that situation but that is about all. Would you like to share the details.I am sure they would enjoy the humilation….
Yep Jane. I got it right here….*slapping my butt*. Bah hahahahahaha!
June 24th, 2009 at 8:25 pmthe great GOPsby
June 24th, 2009 at 8:27 pmSir we do have other guests. If your tastes are a little how shall I say provincial perhaps you might feel more comfortable at Applebee’s
what’s wrong with applebees?
June 24th, 2009 at 8:33 pmdbadass Says:
It would be my pleasure, are you familiar with TPWW?
When you go the the blog, there is a list of recent comments titled Commentiffity.
June 24th, 2009 at 8:34 pmClick on my name and it will link directly to the thread where Johnson outed the two dimwits.
http://tpwatchwatch.wordpress.com/
reggie – too much time on your hands.
June 24th, 2009 at 8:35 pmSir you definately no not cuisine. I really think you might be happy at a cyrovac reheat facility plus I really would not wish to waste culture on your undoubtedly poor tip…
June 24th, 2009 at 8:36 pmthe great GOPsby
June 24th, 2009 at 8:38 pmSo hereis the deal. I am stepping out for a few oysters and a touch of wine. Please stick around we have much to speak of… So did you get her a little dental work or not?
Give me like 40 minutes. K?
gopsby, I knew you were just a gutless punk. who attacks other people, but when it comes to telling us what you’ve done and served with, you can’t, because your a phony who has never done anything for this country.
June 24th, 2009 at 8:39 pmNo one seems to remember that the F-22 program was cut four times during the Chimpy Administration. The goal of 381 was back in ‘01.
Plus, an additional $389 million would, barely, buy two more. However, if it’s meant to finish those already in production? I don’t have much of a problem with it.
June 24th, 2009 at 8:53 pmthe great GOPsby Says:
kayinmaine = weak on national security.
etothep says
the great GOPsby = weak on intellect
June 24th, 2009 at 9:16 pm(((((HUGGING THE TP POTATO BUG)))))
June 24th, 2009 at 9:17 pmI guess the poser didn’t want to stick around… Island Creek Oysters rock…
June 24th, 2009 at 9:27 pmThe F-22 should be a dead program. It was a good aircraft for the cold war when you needed to constantly develop newer and higher performance aircraft to take on an enemy also attempting to out tech the US. That is simply not the case today. The Joint Strike Fighter will off better technology within a reasonable period of time to meet our next greatest enemy (China.)
We need to skip the F-22 and develop our aircraft along two separate lines: First, the high tech superiority fighter (JSF 35) and second, a lower tech, mass produced fighter for ground support and the kind of fighting that we can expect in low intensity warfare.
The GreatGopsby likes to flap his mouth. However, it is fairly clear that he has little or no experience in air warfare. I was in the Air Force and had experience with fighter aircraft. There is a reason that the Pentagon does not want the F-22. It is a waste of scarce resources that would be better spent on developing the next generation fighter and supporting our troops on the ground.
June 24th, 2009 at 9:36 pm::hugs back::
and after dbadass has completed your schooling gopsby, how will we be paying for these third of a trillion dollar planes tonight, sir?
June 24th, 2009 at 9:38 pm“Yep Jane. I got it right here….*slapping my butt*.”
Kay, how do you find jeans that fit a pentagram? ;)
June 24th, 2009 at 9:43 pmWell I couldn’t disagree with the President more on this decision.
Yet, I still support him in his job.
:|
Go figger.
June 24th, 2009 at 9:43 pmWrong.
First, the F22 was developed long after the end of the Cold War.
Second, if China is our next greatest enemy (someone better tell them that so they can stop lending us money then) then China along with Russia are building their own 5th Generation fighters designed to take on the F22 head to head.
And if they are our next enemy (Russia and China are a package deal these days) then we’re going to need all the F22’s we can get our hands on.
That is if we don’t want our pilots killed at a ratio of about 200 to 1.
June 24th, 2009 at 9:45 pmThe real upcoming threat is mostly likely North Korea (and possibly China by proxy) so perhaps 187 F22’s will be sufficient given their limited numbers of fighters and the F22’s unbeatable 200 to 1 kill ratio for their Mig29 type fighters. But it’s possible China could replenish their numbers, and over time we could find ourselves wishing we had more of them, or better put, our pilots could.
I say build a few hundred more.
Spend the money. Keep the jobs, keep American’s working.
2 Billion these days is a drop in the bucket given the trillions we’re handing to US businesses to keep them solvent.
At least this way we’re getting something for our money.
June 24th, 2009 at 9:50 pmThe F-22 started development during the cold war. It entered prototype and production after the cold war. Actually, Air Force studies leading to the F-22 began in the late 1970’s to develop a new aircraft to counter the Russian Fulcrum and Flanker (please note the similarity in the Fulcrum to the F-15) The Air Force set forth the program in AFI 10-601 Mission Needs and and Operational Requirements. The Soviet collapse began in 1985 with the fall of Soviet client states with the actual Soviet collapse in 1992. Please note that the initial program funding was in 1985.
Your views on China are at best naive and at worst dangerous. We do not enjoy the same friendship with China that we enjoy with the UK, Germany or others. They are exerting increased influence in Asia and could well become a potential enemy. They are increasing their military capability.
By the way, why would I want all the F-22’s that I can get my hands on when the JSF program offers lower observability, better engine technology and a vastly superior electronic suite.
June 24th, 2009 at 9:59 pmWaynebro: Do tend to like your thinking more. I agree with you concerning North Korea. However, I doubt that there would be a great deal of air warfare. Frankly, you will either have to go with nuclear response or heavy ground support. China really does not have a lot of desire to support the North Koreans.
I think that we are looking to the long term when China will be the a countervailing super power to the US.
I am always suspicious of 200 to 1 kill ratios. We thought that of all of our aircraft. Red Flag exercises always indicated that the ratios were a lot lower than thought.
June 24th, 2009 at 10:06 pmNo, the bidding phase which included test and initial design phase to decided who would build the plane began in the cold war, but the award wasn’t given to Lockheed until 1991, the year the cold war ended.
And thus the development of the plane didn’t actually begin until after 1991 when Lockheed started actually developing the F22 and not a pre award prototype.
And it wasn’t until January 2003 until the first F22 plane was actually delivered and even then it wasn’t until October of 03 that the actual Operational Test and Evaluation program began by the Air Force.
So 2003, when the actual plane was first sent to the military for testing and evaluation, was a long time after the end of the cold war.
So I was correct in saying the F22 wasn’t even around in the Cold War. The idea of an advanced fighter was, but the actual plane was many years off.
June 24th, 2009 at 10:14 pmThe real upcoming threat is mostly likely North Korea
June 24th, 2009 at 10:18 pm—
How so? A starving isolated nation. Current events are about posturing and should be treated as such. What does North Korea have to gain by actually attacking anyone?
Well, being I’ve been around for half a century, and have been writing in this blog for 5 years on the threat of the Russo\Sino alliance, I would say nothing about my views on China are “naive”, much less dangerous.
I’ve been one of the only people writing about the rise of the Peoples Army, and wrote extensively about the new Chinese Russian military alliance the same month they performed the first ever joint tactical war games.
I’ve written extensively about the Chinese 5th Gen fighter projects like the J-12, and the Russian similar projects like the 1.44. I’ve been a strong advocate for maintaining technological superiority over China\Russia, as a means of avoiding confrontation, not encouraging it.
That being said I don’t see an immediate threat from them, given our current technological superiority. North Korea and China via proxy is a much more urgent threat.
But given China and Russia are rapidly advancing military technology, then my argument to keep the F22 program, and even advance it, carries even more weight.
The F22 is superior to anything out there.
So we should have a 1000 of them.
June 24th, 2009 at 10:20 pm—
NKorea threatens US as world anticipates missile
By HYUNG-JIN KIM, Associated Press Writer Hyung-jin Kim, Associated Press Writer – 51 mins ago
SEOUL, South Korea – North Korea accused Washington of seeking to “provoke a second Korean War” as the regime prepared to hold maritime military exercises off the eastern coast. U.S. and regional authorities were watching closely for signs that North Korea might fire short- or mid-range missiles during the June 25 to July 10 timeframe cited in a no-sail ban for military drills sent to Japan’s Coast Guard.
June 24th, 2009 at 10:22 pmAnd you believe that? It is about posturing. What do they stand to gain?
June 24th, 2009 at 10:24 pmA starving isolated nation with an army over 1 MILLION strong with 4.7 MILLION in reserve, backed by massive artillery and offensive missiles, and enough fissile material for 2 to 9 nuclear weapons, all staring down 38,500 US troops on the DMZ.
That’s how so.
June 24th, 2009 at 10:25 pm2 to 9 compares how to ours? Can we be serious? What do they stand to gain?
June 24th, 2009 at 10:26 pmReunification with South Korea and the accumulation of all its wealth and resources, backed by the Chinese\Russian alliance.
:|
Of course, a better question is still, what do they have to lose?
June 24th, 2009 at 10:26 pmwhat do they have to lose?
June 24th, 2009 at 10:27 pm—existance…
There existence isn’t much now, as you pointed out.
Desperate people often take desperate measures.
And besides, there’s nothing to believe.
The CIA and the US Air Force already confirmed that North Korea HAS built, and detonated Nuclear weapons.
Whether or not they choose to attack, well, I’m sure you’re calm about it from your cube at TP. But I have a good friend serving on the DMZ who isn’t as calm as you are about it.
:|
No one ever thinks war will break out, until it does.
June 24th, 2009 at 10:29 pmthat is always such a stupid question…
June 24th, 2009 at 10:29 pmYea, and it’s stupid to sit in a cube and think nothing will ever happen when you’re not the one who’s ass is on the line.
IF war does break out, the F22 will give our pilots a huge advantage.
Hopefully it won’t. And I’m not going to “wish” it would just to be right over you.
I’ll be happy if you’re right and it doesn’t.
But the POSSIBILITY is there, and it’s a strong one at the moment. Just ask anyone actually working in the Pentagon on the North Korean issue.
What’s stupid is acting like you can predict the future, even in the face of information that contrasts your “opinion”.
June 24th, 2009 at 10:32 pmAnd as for stupid questions, what do they have to gain is a stupid question, if you don’t bother to look at the answers.
June 24th, 2009 at 10:33 pmCute try and play the you only know people serving card…It is still absurd. If you wanna be all weirded out go ahead but this is as likely of Iran making a weapon and immediately using it. Deterrance and leverage is what we are talking bout not any actual threat.
June 24th, 2009 at 10:34 pmwhy do you think your answers are the correct ones?
June 24th, 2009 at 10:35 pmIraq was an existential threat as well I suppose. It is all such bs sold to the machismos…
June 24th, 2009 at 10:36 pmWaynbro: I see where you are coming from. However, my point is simply that the F-22 encompasses old technology geared towards a Cold War threat that simply does not exist. That does not change with when the plane went into production. However, you seem to think that development only starts with production. Wrong! I have been in the aerospace defense industry to see the development of the F-15, F-16 (F-39 – an interesting odd ball), F-22 and JSF. They all started long before initial production. You seem unable to comprehend my statement “The F-22 started development during the cold war.” That is a true statement. You stated that the F-22 was not. Your exact words were: “First, the F22 was developed long after the end of the Cold War.” I agree as to the production dates since I am currently working on programs supporting both the F-22 and JSF.
The award of the contract has a lot less to do with the operational concept, capabilities and technological approach which are to a very large extent determined by the original program documents. Operational testing and evaluation is the end of the process and merely determines whether the aircraft meets the original operational mission statement. That is a document that I am familiar with and it still reflects a cold war environment. I would love to say that the military was more nimble at adapting to technological change and to the change in operational requirements. It is not.
The F-22 program continued for a number of reasons: (1) We had little idea of how the collapse of the Soviet Union would ultimately impact their military capability, (2) The F-22 had great technology at the time and would have made a lot of sense had the threat level been higher after the collapse, (3) Over time there has been a built in momentum of contractors wanting the program to continue (4) Being tough on defense came to signify pushing programs that should have been axed. (Strangely enough – one of the very, very, very few instances in which I would ever agree with Rummy.)
I simply believe that we take the money and use it on better programs. The JSF is supported by the same production facilities and provides a superior product.
Enjoy discussing the issue with you and appreciate your knowledge of the aircraft.
June 24th, 2009 at 10:38 pmWhy do you try and paint me into your position of pretending to predict the future like you?
I just got through saying I don’t predict the future, and hope you’re right. But the signs are there. And all I’m doing is looking at the actual signs. And so is the Pentagon, and the military.
You on the other hand appear to be simply towing the party line over a measly 2 billion dollars (measly by federal standards), while depriving our pilots of the best plane out there at the moment.
June 24th, 2009 at 10:39 pmNo what’s cute is your parroting party lines while inventing nonsense like this post.
I never “played a card”. I have a good friend who is currently serving on the DMZ in an important role. He’s been there for years, is an expert on the area and is Korean by descent himself.
And his concerns do not support your cavalier attitude.
June 24th, 2009 at 10:41 pmWhat Chinese/Russian allience. Proxy wars are so old school. China can shut this whole placedown in a heartbeat. They know it and we know it.Hence the maintanence of the status quo…
June 24th, 2009 at 10:42 pmI never “played a card”.
then explain this…
“well, I’m sure you’re calm about it from your cube at TP.”
June 24th, 2009 at 10:45 pmNo, that’s just not true.
Because the F22 is first and foremost a fighter. And in EXTENSIVE combat simulation tests the F22 has showed unfettered air dominance over contemporary air craft, even in vastly superior numbers.
June 24th, 2009 at 10:46 pm
It’s called an observation, and a correct one.
June 24th, 2009 at 10:47 pmWhat Chinese\Russian alliance?
Don’t they have access to the news there at TP?
It’s been in all the papers, and the Pentagon has had briefs on it since 2003 when they conducted the first ever joint tactical war games in world history.
Do I really have to explain this to you?
June 24th, 2009 at 10:50 pmSince our best brokers with North Korea are China and Russia, perhaps it’s better not to be in a fevered pitch over weapons to defeat Russia and China, at this time, if you’re really worried about North Korea.
June 24th, 2009 at 10:50 pmIt’s called an observation, and a correct one.
–See this discounts anything reasonable that you might have to say as it makes no sense and is beyond provable. Try to be logical and consistent please. Where you that weird kid in middle schoolthat drew pictures of fighter jets shooting it up and bombs dropping on stick figures?
June 24th, 2009 at 10:56 pmDo I really have to explain this to you?
– No but it seems you might need a little assistance. Often entire continents and other regions coordinate strategies and defenses…
June 24th, 2009 at 10:58 pmHere. Since you aren’t up at current affairs over there.
Maybe these will get you started.
June 24th, 2009 at 11:01 pm
WAYNEBRO: I understand the Red Flag results. However, I am not interested in the contemporary threats. We have a sufficient number of F-22’s to deal with the most likely scenarios that we currently face along with existing combat aircraft. The F-22 gives you air superiority as would other fighters in current inventory (although with more vulnerability.) The contemporary aircraft that we face were also based on cold war threats. The real issue will be, as you noted, the development of fifth generation aircraft by the Russians and Chinese. They are attempting to leap frog the technology. We already have aircraft in development that would block and exceed their planned aircraft. We need to press that advantage. Why do you think that the Russians and Chinese are cooperating? They know that neither has the infrastructure and resources to field an aircraft alone.
June 24th, 2009 at 11:04 pmWAYNEBRO
June 24th, 2009 at 11:04 pmWhy do you try to insult? You are free to interpret world events however you wish but it doesn’tmake those interpretations correct. I smell military indoctrination. Would you not agree that it would be logical for Russia and China to collaborate on common interests as all nations do? It doesn’t follow that collaboration leads to some master plan…
Their military alliance has been happening for at least four years now. Why, pray tell, is it alarming all of a sudden?
June 24th, 2009 at 11:06 pmWhat are you talking about?
Do you read your own nonsense?
You called my statement “stupid”, something I had not said to you.
June 24th, 2009 at 11:06 pmuhhh, had you read my comments prior to sticking your two cents worth in you’d see that there is no “all of a sudden” and I said it started back in 03 and that I’ve been writing about it ever since.
Please.
I have enough straw arguments to deal with without yours.
June 24th, 2009 at 11:09 pmIs this your blog now, Waynebro? Go piss up a rope.
June 24th, 2009 at 11:09 pmI believ I called the statement stupid not the individual who made it.Still if you are sensitive about that I apologize. The point is that “what do they have to lose” implies irrationality which is hardly the case. If they were so irrational they would not be perplexing the US for solong now would they?
June 24th, 2009 at 11:12 pmCommon interests are not what we’re talking about here.
If you knew anything about it you’d know that.
We’re talking about a a massive military ALLIANCE, meaning the combining of military forces between Russia and China for the first time in modern history.
And in 2003 AP reported the FIRST EVER JOINT TACTICAL WAR GAMES carried out by the Chinese and Russians, and they were MASSIVE.
It was a beachhead assault that the Chinese Defense Minister said equaled US forces and was designed to “stabilize an occupied nation”, (i.e. Iraq).
Just because I’ve paid attention to this and you haven’t, doesn’t mean I’m “indoctrinated”. It means I know the subject I’m writing on.
June 24th, 2009 at 11:12 pmStill crazy after all these years
June 24th, 2009 at 11:13 pm/
Really?
So you think Kim Jong Ill is “rational”?
:|
Who knew?
June 24th, 2009 at 11:14 pmHow is it my blog when I’m responding to your nonsense?
Don’t like my responses?
Then don’t make stupid straw arguments about things no one said anything about.
June 24th, 2009 at 11:15 pmSo you think Kim Jong Ill is “rational”?
– I know how to play chess and so does he.Do you?
June 24th, 2009 at 11:16 pmLets just say DB, if you think Kim Jong Ill is rational, then I’m glad there are smarter people than you working at the Pentagon.
June 24th, 2009 at 11:17 pmAnd playing is not detonating Nuclear Weapons in violation of international law.
Like I said, no one ever thinks war will break out, until it does.
June 24th, 2009 at 11:17 pmIf you knew anything about it you’d know that.
June 24th, 2009 at 11:17 pm—
Tell me again where you expertise arises from that you can make such confident statements.
Which part of I READ the press releases on it fails your comprehension?
It’s called reading comprehension.
A skill most people obtain by fourth grade.
June 24th, 2009 at 11:18 pmThe world is driven by economic warfare these days not blindly ideological children being slaughtered on battlefields…
June 24th, 2009 at 11:20 pmJune 24th, 2009 at 11:21 pm
It’s called reading comprehension.
A skill most people obtain by fourth grade.
– everheard of information literacy. I have read that man never stepped on the moon but still I was able to weigh those words in a larger context and critical think about the implications…
June 24th, 2009 at 11:21 pmSo anyway do you know how to play chess?
June 24th, 2009 at 11:23 pmJune 24th, 2009 at 11:24 pm
Joint Russian-Chinese war games: a reaction to aggressive US policies
—- Interesting title…. Sort of funny isn’t it in light of your concerns about an aggressive advesary…
June 24th, 2009 at 11:25 pmPeace out…
June 24th, 2009 at 11:25 pmJune 24th, 2009 at 11:27 pm
There was a time I thought a military alliance between Russia and China would be the worst of all possible worlds. Then the Bush administration happened. He withdrew from the ABM and kicked off a new generation of the nuclear arms race. We’re pulling back now. I expect other nations to calm down accordingly, in time.
Kim Jong Il is a nut, but a lot of people have experience dealing with this nut, and have dealt with him successfully in the past. No matter how you want to paint N.K. as a threat, you have to admit that it’s the U.S. that has been invading nations and touting “regime change” as a noble pursuit.
June 24th, 2009 at 11:28 pmJune 24th, 2009 at 11:29 pm
June 24th, 2009 at 11:31 pm
Joint Russian-Chinese war games: a reaction to aggressive US policies
June 24th, 2009 at 11:33 pm–This one still amuses me…
Peace-
June 24th, 2009 at 11:34 pm
Maybe it is that reading comphrehension thing…
June 24th, 2009 at 11:34 pmWhen they had their first joint naval exercises, China wanted to have them off the coast of Taiwan, but the Russian brass talked them into having them further north.
June 24th, 2009 at 11:34 pmI think this one, is more amusing.
June 24th, 2009 at 11:35 pmAnalysts say the two sides are signaling they are prepared to counter US dominance in international affairs.
June 24th, 2009 at 11:35 pm— seem reasonable enough to me…
If it seems so reasonable to you, then why’d you ask this?
June 24th, 2009 at 11:36 pm
What Chinese/Russian allience
June 24th, 2009 at 11:37 pm—
Well it is true asthere is no such word is there? Anyway the point wass that no real offense threat exists from this regional collaboration.
And???
They’ve had massive exercises since, and shared technology for a strike fighter designed to take on the US F-22 Raptor.
It’s amazing I make a clear point, and you deny it, until I post 300 news articles proving your ignorance of the point, and then I hear nothing but straw arguments and diversions.
You asked “what Russian\Chinese alliance.
Well, now you know.
June 24th, 2009 at 11:39 pmYou asked “what Russian\Chinese alliance.
– That was me not wiley. Shall I announce your ignorance now?
June 24th, 2009 at 11:40 pmactual proclaimmight be a better word…
June 24th, 2009 at 11:42 pmMistaking the words of others usually indicates a certain edginess…
Well, there’s no such word as “allience”.
You might try “alliance”.
As for the threat, given your ignorance of the events themselves, I’ll prefer to listen to the experts at the Pentagon who think it does present a threat when it comes to our presence in their region.
Take Taiwan for example. North Korea. Afghanistan. Iraq.
It’s not a threat to the homeland.
But it is a threat to our troops there.
Especially given we’re stopping our 5th Generation fighter program, and they’re advancing theirs, and combining technologies, resources and manpower.
June 24th, 2009 at 11:42 pm300 news articles
June 24th, 2009 at 11:44 pmin less than 200 posts.. Well done. Well done…
Proclaimmight I’m not sure is a word.
As for the “edginess”, that’s just another of your cheap straw men you pull out to paint others with when you’ve been shown to not know what you’re talking about.
June 24th, 2009 at 11:44 pmWell that’s called a euphemism, but you’d have to be literate (or reasonable) to know that.
June 24th, 2009 at 11:45 pmSo a much less costly approach might be to ask why our troops might in what you have called “their” region…
June 24th, 2009 at 11:47 pmYou can claimall you want that I am ignorant of events but it only shows you to be a little defensive about your alledged “knowledge”…
So for real your were that kid drawing those pictures weren’t you. Did you also make the ones with bloody swords and daggers. What about paper throwing stars were you way into those? Shoot lots of birds with that bb gun did ya?
June 24th, 2009 at 11:49 pmThis is typical fare for you.
You say “What Chinese/Russian allience” and imply there isn’t one.
Then I show you a numerous news articles including the BBC and the New York Times that openly talk about it and you now act like you never did.
This is what I’ve come to expect from you. Honestly I don’t even know why I respond.
June 24th, 2009 at 11:55 pmI like this approach
Diplomacy.
Our relations with Russia and China are dynamic. We are not locked in a metaphysical, eternal enmity.
June 24th, 2009 at 11:55 pmIn my experience those that endlessly fall back on claims that others are ignorant are insecure at best and unwise at least.
June 24th, 2009 at 11:55 pmFor real I have to get. Early wake up… Keep ‘fraid my friend…
A minute ago you said this.
And here you are painting me as some sort of right wing nutjob because I am willing to look at the North Korean threat with open eyes, as well as the Chines\Russian alliance and the potential threat to our military in the region.
All those things you spend countless hours accusing others of in here, are simply things you do yourself.
June 24th, 2009 at 11:57 pmIn my experience the partisan hacks such as yourself who endlessly fall back on calling someones valid observations being “afraid” are insecure themselves at best, and unwise to be sure.
Idiots like you are why the right wing constantly drags out Neville Chamberlain.
Because like him, you prefer to bury your head in the sand rather than dealing with real issues, and dealing with them in a calm, reasonable manner.
Keeping the F-22 program alive is not being “afraid”. It’s respecting the men and women of our air force who have to confront real world threats in the air, and who will have to fight them, should war ever break out.
June 25th, 2009 at 12:01 amNot at all.I just played with you in response to your arrogance. My stuff always comes afterwards…
June 25th, 2009 at 12:01 amNot to mention your incessant need to twist my words into predictions of impending conflict.
I’ve said repeatedly that I can’t predict the future.
You on the other hand, insist that I do, and that you can.
June 25th, 2009 at 12:03 amMy arrogance? I made a statement about the Russian\Chinese alliance. You implied there wasn’t one.
Then when you had no where else to turn after being showed there was one, turned to insults and painting me as a right wing warmonger.
The only thing you played was yourself.
June 25th, 2009 at 12:04 amThe OMB and plenty of others within the military think otherwise. Do you discount the power of the military/industrial complex to mislead necessity?
June 25th, 2009 at 12:05 amWaynebro, dbadass:
We really do not need to determine whether there is a secret, dark collusion between Russia and China to exercise regional domination to take their threat seriously. Read the articles that Waynebro cites. They do point to a military challenge that will require countering by the United States. My take is a little different than Waynebro, however, my conclusion will be similar:
1. We were the last super power after the Cold War. We could have played the game two different ways. One, we could have simply worked with Russia for a smooth transition to a free market economy and democracy. Two we could be idiots and utilize a shock doctrine approach with great suffering to the Russian people. We chose the second and upped it with public humiliation with extending NATO membership for defensive purposes with former Soviet satellites. The result was a less democratic form of government and increased nationalism.
2. We could have signaled a moderate and cooperative international presence. The first Gulf War was an excellent example of building a coalition and responding in a reasonable manner. The response to 9/11 and the founding of an imperial presence on the international stage undermined us. Remember the Axis of evil? Well N. Korea responded with nuclear weapons and Iran (who had a moderate president and street demonstrations stating that we are all Americans) went back to its radical leaders.
3. Russia and China are not stupid and they have reacted accordingly. Now we do have legitimate relations with S. Korea and Taiwan that require the presence of our troops. S. Korea and the North were indeed pursuing closer relations when Bush disregarded the Clinton agreements and joined them into the axis of evil. (Yes, they had a secret nuclear program that really gave them expertise but no production capability until they went wild.) One could only imagine that we would not be facing such a military alliance had there not been cowboy diplomacy.
4. Now everyone in the game is arming up and creating new weapon systems. Great, we cannot ignore it and it will take many a year to turn the situation around. However, we will be forced to continue 5th generation aircraft and move more aggressively to develop the 6th generation.
Stupidity that we will all have to live with.
June 25th, 2009 at 12:06 amI don’t remember saying anything about wings.. Are you seeing what you need to? Do I really need to point out again that I simply said any regional alliance does not equate to an offensive existential threat? Let’s pick it up another day shall we? I look forward to it.Especially if you can drop the ignorance gambit…
June 25th, 2009 at 12:07 amcheers-
Great.
More straw arguments.
Well chief, since I made it unmistakably clear that this story was in all the NEWSPAPERS, your strawman about me ever referring to some “secret dark collision” falls flat as a pancake.
Please don’t invent more straw men for you to argue with yourself over.
June 25th, 2009 at 12:15 amWell since you were the first to call someones position “stupid”, and then implied there was no Russian\Chinese military alliance, then shifted your tune when I proved there was, and wound up whining about me being “arrogant”, I think its you who’s going to need to drop the “gambits”.
Better yet, just drop the ignorance, and we’ll see what we can do.
June 25th, 2009 at 12:17 amOh and as for the “arrogance” accusations used to back fill your faltering opinions?
I can think of many words to describe you my friend.
“Humble” is not one of them.
June 25th, 2009 at 12:19 amBy the way JHMOR, as for the rest of your comment, I concur with much of what you say.
But please don’t label me with this “secret dark collusion” stuff.
I made it clear it was in all the papers.
If my tonality was off, forgive me.
Dealing with “dbadass” and all…
June 25th, 2009 at 12:21 amWaynebro:
I am not saying that you believed in a secret conspiracy. Dbadass and Wiley have implied that the cooperation between Russia and China is justified because they have a rational geopolitical interest in the area, have justified fears of US intentions because of Bush actions and that in some instances we really have no reason to have a presence in certain areas. I am merely stating that such motivations are irrelevant in determining our military position. In other words, it is not necessary to judge their motivation. It is just simply enough to note that we have national interests in the area and that an alliance/cooperation has formed. Hopefully, we can work over the next few years to turn the situation around.
June 25th, 2009 at 12:25 amAnd I agree an arms race is a necessary evil. Stupid, perhaps. But it’s been that way since the dawn of time between opposing forces and principalities.
Russia and China don’t want open war with the US, and I never suggested they did. They do want to move forward as a super power however, and after seeing the US struggling in Iraq, and war in which we get kicked off the Korean Peninsula would do their image no harm. Especially if they backed the right horse.
North Korea is doing more than saber rattling. They’re detonating Nuclear Weapons in direct opposition to treaty and law. And worse, they sell these weapons to terrorist factions in the middle east. We know this. We’ve repeatedly caught technology being sent to the Middle East from NK, and this is a problem that has to be addressed.
I don’t “think” war will break out. But it could. Its a distinct possibility. So being prepared is not foolish or warmongering. It’s just being prepared.
And the F-22 is the plane we’d use against the Peoples Air Force, and their MIG29 fighters (and whatever else China ships them).
And whats more, a large number of F-22’s would not only save US lives, it would help keep Russia and or China from directly intervening, as a deterrent factor.
It’s a no brainer in my book.
2 Billion isn’t that much in the big picture. We spend trillions.
2 Billion to give our pilots the best aircraft on the market today is in my book, a wise and prudent move.
Not to mention the US jobs it will save\create.
June 25th, 2009 at 12:29 amIt took me a long time to decide to chime in here. This is one of my favorite subjects and it’s a shame that tempers take the better of us. I’m certainly as guilty of that as anyone. People get pissed off. Big deal.
So? I’m not here to participate in, or break up, a dispute.
I’m in full agreement, WAYNEBRO, that the F-22 should be funded through the planed production program ending in 2011. I still haven’t seen a breakdown of what this “additional funding” is actually for. I’m still not sure what, exactly the flap is about. If anyone has a breakdown I’d sure appreciate a link.
I suspect that it’s for modifications, maintenance, spare parts, and all the little things that active service demands. All those “little things” are what makes a successful weapon system. We have the F-22 in service and abandoning it to scrimping at this point would be a waste. Not to mention our pilots who may face an advanced opponent in any of dozens of nations deserve the best edge we can give them.
Right now that edge is represented by the F-22. The F-35, as a multirole aircraft, will never match the alleged performance of the F-22 in air to air combat. And it’s not yet in service. If the F-35 proves to be a better bet? Then they can mothball the F-22s in the hopes they are never needed.
Back in the late ’50s it was assumed that missiles and radar would make dogfights an anachronism. Vietnam and the wars of Israel, among others, proved that assumption wrong. And it cost many hundreds of lives to relearn the lesson that, aside from training, the plane that can dictate terms wins.
There are lots of places I would like to see military spending cut but I really don’t think the F-22 is the best place to start. It really comes down to spending dollars to save lives. The F-22 is capable of doing just that in thousands of scenarios no one can even imagine. But the fact that is hasn’t been needed is not a strike against it.
The F-22 is a strategic asset that’s currently unmatched. And it’s expected to remain unmatched for the foreseeable future. It’s entirely possible that it will be the last manned U.S. fighter. And I can’t think of a better use than as a deterrent to some madman that gets his hands on the latest U.S., European Union, Russian, Chinese, or even Indian weapons. And we’ve already paid for it.
June 25th, 2009 at 1:21 amI pretty much agree with that. I’ve done the comparisons on the two from everything available that I could fine and the F-35 is certainly a contender. It’s been pitted against the Sukhoi in combat sims and has done well. It’s kill to loss ratio while impressive, is however much less than the F-22. They say the helmet mounted system will make it comparable or superior, but looking at the performance statistics its hard to believe.
The F-22 is faster, (Mach 2.25 for the F-22 to Mach 1.6 for the F-35) and can fly significantly further and higher. 5000 feet higher actually. Of course improvements to the F-35 could change that I suppose, but for now it seems the F-22 is superior on most points.
And I can’t help but consider something you said the other day on this issue. The F-22 is not permitted to be exported.
This restriction is not included on the F-35 which is being purchased by several UN countries.
June 25th, 2009 at 1:37 amWell since I’m in my 50’s I’m confident it’s you who are the junior.
Your posts certainly attest to that fact.
As for my premise, the best deterrent is being bigger, stronger and having superior technology, as history has shown us time and time again.
But why am I telling you this?
:|
Swiss cheese can’t retain knowledge or think.
June 25th, 2009 at 1:41 amWell Pete said it.
So you’re calling him stupid I take it?
June 25th, 2009 at 1:42 amAnd notice your article doesn’t say it’s exporting it dimwit.
It says it’s “prepared to create a VERSION of it”.
Obviously there’s technology they’re not willing to export.
And the fact is they do not currently permit it to be exported, so as usual, it’s your rabid, frothing at the mouth self that is woefully stupid and uninformed.
June 25th, 2009 at 1:44 amWhen dbadass goes to bed out comes his little yapper dog, RHF, to shriek and blather like a little raving idiot, to try and bury any real debate or discussion.
June 25th, 2009 at 1:45 amWell if I’m 12 little worm, that puts you in the negative figures.
June 25th, 2009 at 1:46 amoops, is right pinhead.
“Preparing” means they haven’t done it yet.
Idiot.
June 25th, 2009 at 1:47 amWell then, we’re in agreement.
You’re stupid.
June 25th, 2009 at 1:48 amUhh, the F-22 is in active service moron.
:|
You calling someone juvenile is like your dad dbadass calling someone arrogant.
June 25th, 2009 at 1:50 amWhenever a coherent position for something that defies the will of the board comes out, out comes this blithering idiot, RHF, to rant and rave in all caps, spew profane insults and bury any discussion whatsoever.
I’m fairly confident his day job is greeting people at his local Walmart.
June 25th, 2009 at 1:55 amThe Walmart Greeter said…
I’m fully aware of that. I’m also aware that the PAK-FA fighter is going to come online this year that replaces the mig-29 and your *deterrent* will evaporate. Were you aware of that, 8 year old TWIT?
Uhh, you realize you just made the argument for continuing production as well as research and development, right?
June 25th, 2009 at 1:56 amIt’s like arguing with a chimpanzee.
June 25th, 2009 at 2:01 amHard to believe with you around that we can’t get people to believe in evolution.
June 25th, 2009 at 2:02 amI wear octagon shaped pants, Jane! LOL Fits nicely. No dieting needed. ;-)
June 25th, 2009 at 7:27 am