Obama considering an executive order allowing indefinite detention.
Obama considering an executive order allowing indefinite detention.
The Washington Post reports today that Obama administration officials are possibly “crafting language for an executive order that would reassert presidential authority to incarcerate terrorism suspects indefinitely.” Impetus for the executive order comes from officials being “increasingly worried that reaching quick agreement with Congress on a new detention system may be impossible.” Additionally, such an order “could be rescinded and would not block later efforts to write legislation.” Over on The Wonk Room, CAP’s Ken Gude explains that while there are still concerns over the emerging policy, “it would be a significant improvement over the Bush administration and would go a long way towards cleaning up the mess at Guantanamo”:
After Congress’ pathetic performance during consideration of Guantanamo funding in the supplemental appropriations bill, it is now evident that no matter how well-intentioned the president and some responsible members are, Congress is not a reliable partner. Whatever would emerge from the sausage grinder risks being far worse than even the already unacceptable status quo. [...]
[Obama's order] would be a significant shift from the Bush administration’s policy that swept into U.S. military detention virtually anyone suspected of terrorist activity captured anywhere in the world. It would restore the bright line between criminal and military detention, a crucial distinction to preserve not just in the United States, but also in other countries that look to or use the U.S. as an example.
There are still ambiguities about whether or not there actually is a draft executive order, as Time’s Michael Scherer notes. Spencer Ackerman spoke to Kate Martin of the Center for National Security Policy, who also said that if Obama “issues an executive order like the one [the Washington Post story describes], it’ll be a major victory.” However, Glenn Greenwald, Digby, the ACLU, and the Center for Constitutional Rights still have significant concerns about the possible order. Steve Benen has more here.
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If this is true, he has lost me as a supporter. We do not need another Bush, we needed change.
June 27th, 2009 at 5:32 pmLooks like we need to start working on a viable 3rd party, since it looks like the Democrats are now too far right of center and the Republicans are so far right they have slipped into the area of f-king nutz…
Lets face reality here, there is no “progressive” party, both parties are owned by the oligarchy and no longer representative of the people in the mainstream.
June 27th, 2009 at 5:42 pmReally? If he has the same policies, what does it matter if he’s smarter than the “high functioning moron?”
June 27th, 2009 at 5:45 pmThis flip-flop will surely assuage the “minority” right wing….and guess what else folks, the CIA is letting off bombs in Iraq now, blaming it on AL QUIDA so that the Iraqi “government” (IE. the US) can decide that they really don’t want us to go away.
June 27th, 2009 at 5:54 pmNothing has changed. The Surge is still surging, and will be for years to come.
…..and why does Obama need an executive order, I thought indefinite detention was already on the books?
June 27th, 2009 at 5:57 pmI’m trying to imagine a situation where even a closed-door “closed to the public” highly guarded trial with “Nation Security” protections in place were not an option, thus forcing us to detain someone without charge or trial indefinitely.
I think Obama likes to examine his options, but I just can’t picture a situation where he agrees this is the best we can do.
June 27th, 2009 at 5:58 pm.
Q U E S T I O N:
If the U.S. thinks it can detain ANYONE for life, WITHOUT CHARGES and a TRIAL, for petty reasons dressed up in scary words, then who can they NOT detain similarly so?
.
June 27th, 2009 at 6:02 pm.
Q U E S T I O N:
When Great Britain did this, it was call TYRANNY, and America was born…
… Now that America wants to be like Mother England, what shall this new “HOMELAND” be called?
.
June 27th, 2009 at 6:03 pmI’ve never really had anything positive to say about George W. Bush, but I’ll tip my hat to him in this regard:
June 27th, 2009 at 6:03 pmHE NEVER LOST HIS BASE
(listen up Obama)
.
Nameplates, underwear, and the White House dog…
… “CHANGE” completed!
.
June 27th, 2009 at 6:03 pm.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ip1zsUIosoA
.
June 27th, 2009 at 6:04 pmWelcome to the Third World, courtesy of rabid Republicans, corporate interests and an invertebrate.
Excuse me, Mr. President but if you are going to sell out, at least have the decency to include the terrorists in your own country. There are many talking heads right here who are guilty of things much worse than some of the poor b*stards you are talking about confining indefinitely.
June 27th, 2009 at 6:05 pmI really don’t care if the President is a master chess player. These moves are not forward.
Hanshiro, keep up the good work.
June 27th, 2009 at 6:10 pmI was so excited on election day voting for Obama. I actually thought that we would finally see a politician keep his campaign promises. I think we are very fortunate that mcaine/palin didnt win. Im just a little discouraged with Obama right now.
June 27th, 2009 at 6:11 pmPresident Obama seems to be trying out the Royal Clothing of the Tyrant Bush and finding out, that hey, these Royal Rags aren’t so bad after all… Hey, you can fool most of the liberals most of the time, they have hardly even noticed that I want to turn the human rights clock back some eight hundred years or so… Hey, I’m still murdering Pakistanis with drones and missiles: war crimes, with hardly a peep out of the peanut gallery. I am still imperially occupying Afghanistan and Iran and folks still approve of me…
June 27th, 2009 at 6:12 pm.
F_CK THE SAUSAGE GRINDER…
… THAT’S WHERE WE GET SCREWED!
THROW OPEN THE DOORS, PULL BACK THE CURTAINS…
… LET THE LIGHT OF JUSTICE DO SOME CLEANING!
.
June 27th, 2009 at 6:13 pmI often tell my conservative friends that it is too soon to judge the successes or failures of recently implemented policies. But I must admit I am disappointed at the Obama administration’s lackadaisical approach on issues I consider pressing, and apparent bait and switch on so many others. I’ll give it some time, but am starting to get the sinking feeling that I’ve been had.
June 27th, 2009 at 6:14 pmsscncturn64,
Keep promises?
REALLY?
Was this before he promised to hold telecoms accountable, or after he voted for their immunity?
Come on people…
… Do you really wear THAT MUCH WOOL that it falls in your eyes?
.
June 27th, 2009 at 6:17 pmAfter 6 months into the process, the President should be laying his stamp on policy and direction. Particularly with the mandate he had and the weakness of the opposition.
I believe the polls will begin reflecting the support of his ‘base’. soon.
June 27th, 2009 at 6:18 pmGive these detainees there day in court “now” and not just a military kangroo court. A human being deserves justice now not later. This goverment is hiding something, hiding something, what? The American people do not torture people. Somehow the goverment has been infiltrated with perverts from the right. This is a goverment of criminal bullshiters, and confidence men. This goverment is all about bullshit, the majority of the people can not make an intellegent decision anymore and there elected officials know this, and feed on this, and the main stream media outlets reinforce this. What has the most powerful nation to fear from one of these detainees nothing, other than to confirme its lawlessness to the world.
June 27th, 2009 at 6:21 pmSo what happens to suspected terrorists who have ALL the Evidence thrown out because of
bush’s Illegal Methods???
Turn them loose???? Like in the GOP ads???
Guilty Criminals have had their charges dismissed because of Bungling Prosecutors and rules of evidence right here in
America.
I don’t envy Obama’s situation, but I hope he doesn’t choose political suicide as an option.
June 27th, 2009 at 6:22 pmIn the last election, I held my nose and voted for Obama even though I knew he was a right of center politician. I felt that he was slightly better than McSame and Caribou Barbie.
However, he let his Justice Department file a brief that was HIGHLY insulting to gays and lesbians, he has not done anything about DADT, and continued the same corporate welfare policies that GWB did in bailing out the banks.
Now he is considering breaking the constitution the same way that Bush did with this executive order. Sorry Obama, you have lost my vote.
The next to lose will be the rest of the Democratic politicians that run in my area. There is a race in Missouri for the Senate in 2010, and it could be a close race. Democrats – are you listening?
June 27th, 2009 at 6:23 pm.
Freedom can be attained when one dissolves the chains of Party that bind!
.
June 27th, 2009 at 6:27 pmThe Bush unitary executive overreached. President Obama has given up none of the power. He wants people to believe he’ll wield it for good:
Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely
Obama’s indefinite detention policy is a Bush suit. Obama wears it proudly.
June 27th, 2009 at 6:40 pm.
Fat elephant in room says:
Dennis Kucinich votes against climate change bill
Published: June 26, 2009
http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/06/26/dennis-kucinich-votes-against-climate-change-bill/
.
June 27th, 2009 at 6:47 pmTough question time.
Name any action or policy of the Bush Administration that has been effectively set aside by the Obama administration.
Name one campaign promise of the Obama administration that has been implemented that is not a continuation of the previous administrations policy.
Name one campaign promise the President has kept to date.
Someone please come up with a positive answer.
June 27th, 2009 at 6:56 pmEmbryonic Stem Cell Research Funding.
The Gag Rule for Foreign Family Planning services.
Federal involvement against State Mandated Medical Marijuana Policies.
June 27th, 2009 at 7:03 pmAnother campaign promise gone. Gone to where they all go. Some never land, into the ether. The President listens to the wrong people. People that have made the mistakes possible. Now we are back again to the same place. Back to a no man’s land where there are no firm decisions. Where the administration feels more comfortable keeping to Bush’s status quo.
The kind of decision to do nothing that requires no real thought. It is easier to do nothing. Shame. As a Constitutional lawyer that he used to be, it should be a no brainer.
June 27th, 2009 at 7:04 pmHoodathunktick,
Awe… come on now.
It’s only been five months.
/snark
p.s.
What’s five months when Goldman Sacs has had their hands on Congress for ages, anyway?
“Suck on Our Yachts”: Goldman Sachs Issues Non-Apology for Destroying the World Economy
http://www.alternet.org/workplace/140806/%22suck_on_our_yachts%22:_goldman_sachs_issues_non-apology_for_destroying_the_world_economy/?page=entire
By Matt Taibbi, True/Slant.
Posted June 22, 2009.
===========================================
Better yet, the entire Rolling Stone Magazine article…
The Great American Bubble Machine
http://zerohedge.blogspot.com/2009/06/goldman-sachs-engineering-every-major.html
By Matt Taibbi
Rolling Stone, July,2009
.
June 27th, 2009 at 7:10 pmanonymous sources = wishful thinking. hold your fire until the purported policy is announced, if there actually is a policy seriously being considered.
June 27th, 2009 at 7:12 pmWow, Max, that makes me feel so much better. /snark
June 27th, 2009 at 7:12 pmHoodathunktick,
I’m just being empathetic for the believers that still linger…
.
June 27th, 2009 at 7:16 pmDisgusting. I think I am going to go on another news fast now.
[signs off]
June 27th, 2009 at 7:20 pmSooooooooo… how’s that Obama thing workin for ya?
hahahahahahahahahahaha
June 27th, 2009 at 7:21 pmThe election of Ronnie Rayguns in 1980 was the death knell of the US Presidency. It was proof positive that it did not matter who was elected. Bill Clinton was almost a contradiction except his entire presidency was haunted by persecution. It is amazing he actually got anything accomplished.
The truth is, we could elect Bill Grogan’s goat as President. It has become a decorative office. GW had no power, he just made a good puppet. Obama is well on his way.
June 27th, 2009 at 7:24 pm#26 Hoodathunkit, Obama promised change, He has changed the decor in the whitehouse. I really hope we get to see the changes that we voted for,soon.
June 27th, 2009 at 7:26 pmThe Administration and my support therefore are rapidly speeding towards opposite poles!
June 27th, 2009 at 7:27 pmLefty Liberal,
Either you simply do not know who Obama really is or you have a VERY skewed sense of left-center-right to make a statement like that!
Obama is a statist, an idealogue who has much more in common with rulers like Hugo Chavez, etc., than any U.S. President in HISTORY.
Obama is actually VERY far from the center, my friend, and it isn’t towards the right.
June 27th, 2009 at 7:28 pm.
Dear Tim,
It isn’t “How’s that workin’ for ya”…
… Instead, it’s, “How’s your support for it workin’ for ya?”
NO?
.
June 27th, 2009 at 7:29 pmBill Clinton WAS Bill Grogan’s Goat UNTIL the Economy began to soar. Then even Monica couldn’t sink Him.
I’m sure Obama has studied ALL of Bill Clinton’s Mistakes and Successes.
I’m thinking Obama is playing it WAY TOO cautiously. His advisors must be telling him that the Left can be ignored.
Prove them Wrong!
And Tim…do you think Obama is acting like a responsible Socialist?
June 27th, 2009 at 7:31 pmTim Vaculik Said:
Sooooooooo… how’s that Obama thing workin for ya?
hahahahahahahahahahaha
Much better than weathervane John would have done, but still disappointing.
June 27th, 2009 at 7:31 pmsscncturn64 Says:
#26 Hoodathunkit, Obama promised change, He has changed the decor in the whitehouse. I really hope we get to see the changes that we voted for,soon.
The only way we will see that is if the average person on the street decides to stand up and demand it. We need to make the Iranian protests look like a teeny little tea party if we want our country back.
June 27th, 2009 at 7:31 pmjimspice.
June 27th, 2009 at 7:32 pm
Doc Rock,
Sorry, but I can’t help but gloat just a little because with each passing day more and more people who voted for him are WAKING UP to who Obama really is and what he has in store for us all.
If only more people would have seen him for what he truly is BEFORE the election!
June 27th, 2009 at 7:35 pmTimmeh, you were had over 8 years ago so quit laughing. You got bought back then and you still haven’t realized it.
June 27th, 2009 at 7:35 pmHoodathunktick, do you think Obama even realizes that the people who voted for him aren`t very happy with his “change” so far?
June 27th, 2009 at 7:37 pmTimmeh, you are gloating over a change that isn’t a change which means you like the idea that rich folks have porked you for so many years.
Dipstick, telling people they have been fooled like you is a really sad thing.
June 27th, 2009 at 7:38 pmMy Dad voted for him and we’ve had some very interesting conversations of late.
He is HORRIFIED now that he sees what Obama intends to do. I tried to warn him before the election, but he had bought into the hate machine with regards to President Bush.
I suspect many people were blinded by that hatred and couldn’t think calmly and logically. Hence the apparently significant number of otherwise independents that voted for Obama.
June 27th, 2009 at 7:39 pmsscncturn64 Says:
Hoodathunktick, do you think Obama even realizes that the people who voted for him aren`t very happy with his “change” so far?
Only time will tell. Polls tend to be fickle but they do eventually catch up.
June 27th, 2009 at 7:40 pmHoodathunktick,
Your line of reasoning (if we can be charitable and call it that) is really convoluted.
It seems you will cling to any excuse to continue supporting Obama just so YOU won’t have to admit you made a horrible mistake.
June 27th, 2009 at 7:41 pmTimmeh, you are selling the same dead cow the Republicans have been selling for too many years.
June 27th, 2009 at 7:42 pmTimmy, bonehead, I am not supporting Obama. I am saying he is buying into the same dead cow crap you have been selling. Because your masters are selling it.
Wake up, bonehead.
June 27th, 2009 at 7:44 pmAnd Timmeh, the only mistake President Obama has made is listening to the fear and crap spewed by people like you rather than the hope and belief of the people who supported and elected him.
Feel proud, sissy boy, you and your type have convinced a decent man that pimping his sister means more than what he said he believed in.
June 27th, 2009 at 7:50 pmHoodathunktick,
Geez, it’s hard to argue with such brilliant logic. I just stand in awe of your verbal prowess …(gag)
June 27th, 2009 at 7:53 pmFeel free to choke yourself, Timmeh. I’d call 911 if it mattered.
June 27th, 2009 at 7:55 pmOn second thought, no I wouldn’t.
June 27th, 2009 at 8:00 pmTim Vaculik
You have your head so far up the Republican Party’s a$$ you wouldn’t know left from right if poured out of its colon and down your throat.
June 27th, 2009 at 8:01 pm.
Fat elephants speak out!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2Xr_f5u3Xk
.
June 27th, 2009 at 8:10 pmI like President Obama and think he’s doing the best job he can under very difficult circumstances.
It’s possible that he’s selling out on these issues for nefarious reasons.
I don’t think that is the case.
What’s more likely is that Bush administration policies that have been criticized, were simply the best answers they had at the time.
It seems plausible to me that those policies that Bush initiated and Obama now continues, must have some merit.
June 27th, 2009 at 8:11 pmbackup, does the tooth fairy come and make you feel happy at night?
June 27th, 2009 at 8:12 pmTim Vaculik Says:
Hi Tim
June 27th, 2009 at 8:14 pmI’m sorry but dbadass isn’t here to abuse you and you may have to find your humiliation someplace else.
Hoodathunktick Says:
It’s a different fairy that gives BU aka CAPTAIN MANTASTIC his pleasure.
June 27th, 2009 at 8:15 pmEven though I give Obama the benefit of the doubt, I don’t think the average participant here will buy the positive spin of this development attempted in the narrative.
June 27th, 2009 at 8:17 pmThe key word here is “considering.”
According to Steve Benen at Washington Monthly, there is no EO drafted.
I am absolutely opposed to holding anyone without charge, and have written to President Obama telling him so. I don’t know what to do with the people they want to hold, but just locking people away forever is not why we started this country. It’s against everything we stand for, and Obama knows it.
June 27th, 2009 at 8:18 pmbackup Says:
Even though I give Obama the benefit of the doubt, I don’t think the average participant here will buy the positive spin of this development attempted in the narrative.
Have you been talking to kkkkarl recently?
There is no positive ’spin’ here. And the President will have to answer for it. He chose to make Bush speak and there will be lots of people who are going to say WTF?
June 27th, 2009 at 8:19 pmWe should try and organize a third party, it’s obvious now that Democrats are just moderate Republicans. Whatever happened to the Constitution?
June 27th, 2009 at 8:20 pmZooey, you are a wonderful person and so gullible. President Obama has made repeated statements that some people just need to be detained forever with no reason.
June 27th, 2009 at 8:22 pmCome on. It seems like there are a few ways to react to this story. Fake positive spin that Obama’s indefinite detention is smarter and better than Bush’s indefinite detention. Or you can attack Obama as O-same-a (same as Bush). Or you can pretend the story doesn’t exist (”Look over there”).
Or you can concede that some of the Bush policies (ie. the policies that Obama has elected to continue) made some sense.
June 27th, 2009 at 8:23 pmOf course, on the surface when I first read it this morning my heart sank – but in reading the full details, after following this for weeks, I came to realize that closing Guantanamo is proving to be much more difficult than we expected for legal and practical reasons, to the Republicans and how they have poisoned the minds of Americans.
If liberal experts say that this move is an improvement over the Bush directive, and important if we expect solid legislation, then I will hold my breath on this and hope that the people who know better actually know better.
June 27th, 2009 at 8:23 pmBefore we obsess too much about a Washington Post article, we should read the damn thing. Here’s the problem Obama inherited:
They cannot be charged because they were tortured. They (presumably) cannot be released because there is too great a likelihood that they will, upon release, kill Americans. (maybe because they were tortured?) Maybe some of them truly are bad guys, but Bush made it impossible to prosecute them because he tortured them.
For example:
Here’s the fine line the Obama Administration is trying to walk:
And that’s a tough line. Indefinite detention runs counter to U.S. and International law.
The real hard fact of the matter is, it is likely that, under the law, these 90 people will have to be released. If they are as bad as the Administration believes, they will likely try to kill again. And we must be prepared for that.
June 27th, 2009 at 8:26 pm.
Dear backedup,
If your narrative is to be correct(policies must have some merit) then you’re saying that you support the continued violation of basic human Rights?
.
June 27th, 2009 at 8:26 pmOr you can concede that some of the Bush policies (ie. the policies that Obama has elected to continue) made some sense.
For a third world, tinpot dictatorship, I will concede your point and logic, backup.
Are you willing to concede the US has become such?
June 27th, 2009 at 8:27 pmBnF, sucks to be us, doesn’t it?
June 27th, 2009 at 8:29 pmMax. No. I posted before that I believe the detainees should get a fair and speedy trial.
But, apparently, that is easier said than done.
I don’t support the violation of human rights. I assume that President Obama feels the same way.
But, if the situation were that simple, I also assume that President Obama would and could readily correct it.
The reality is that the issue is most likely not that black and white.
June 27th, 2009 at 8:32 pmbackup, the problem is that it is that black and white and the US can’t accept/acknowledge it acted like a despot.
Face is everything in politics.
June 27th, 2009 at 8:35 pm.
Sorry backedup,
I though you cheered on Herr Bush’s policies…
… especially the policies of TWAT that brought us the policies of detention, TORTURE, and rendition, to name a few.
My bad :)
.
June 27th, 2009 at 8:37 pm68. backup Says: Or you can concede that some of the Bush policies (ie. the policies that Obama has elected to continue) made some sense.
This is absolute, unmitigated crap.
(via Greenwald:)
Obama is out of his fcuking mind!
June 27th, 2009 at 8:39 pmBriseadh na Firefly Says:
——————————————————————————–
The real hard fact of the matter is, it is likely that, under the law, these 90 people will have to be released. If they are as bad as the Administration believes, they will likely try to kill again. And we must be prepared for that.
June 27th, 2009 at 8:26 pm
It’s the only solution, and I think President Obama knows it. He just needs to make the decision, rather than dithering around with indefinite detention — and tell the American people in no uncertain terms that the reason why these dangerous people are being released, even though we know they are dangerous, is because the Bush administration tortured them and ruined any chance for bringing them to trial. He has to get on national television and say it clearly and directly to the people.
There will be fallout, MASSIVE fallout, but he must be clear that the torture policy of the George W. Bush administration left him no other choice.
June 27th, 2009 at 8:39 pmHoodathunktick Says:
——————————————————————————–
Zooey, you are a wonderful person and so gullible. President Obama has made repeated statements that some people just need to be detained forever with no reason.
June 27th, 2009 at 8:22 pm
He’s wrong. Once again, someone has to clean up a stinking mess left by George W. Bush.
Sometimes I wonder if that’s why the Rs ran McCain for president — to throw the election so a Dem would be in this impossible position.
June 27th, 2009 at 8:41 pmHoodathunk. I think it’s less about saving face and more about difficulty in classifying the detainees as crime suspects or as prisoners of war.
June 27th, 2009 at 8:43 pm13. Hoodathunktick Says: I really don’t care if the President is a master chess player. These moves are not forward.
Hanshiro, keep up the good work.
Thank you for that.
June 27th, 2009 at 8:44 pmhanshiro. Okay. I’ll listen to you.
If my explanation is hollow, what is it that you think motivates Obama to do this?
June 27th, 2009 at 8:47 pmExcuse me, Mr. President but as an American citizen I feel more threatened by people like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Bill O’Reilly, Glenn Beck, Michelle Malkin, Ann Coulter, Savage Weiner and their ilk than I do by people from overseas of less than white color who may have been involved in anti-American activities that can’t be proved. Especially when you can’t prosecute them because you really have no case against them while these others are supplying a continual case.
If you are going to violate the Constitution, could you please keep it closer to home and leave the ethnic crap out of it?
June 27th, 2009 at 8:50 pmbackup Says:Hoodathunk. I think it’s less about saving face and more about difficulty in classifying the detainees as crime suspects or as prisoners of war.
Make sure you clap for Tinkerbelle when asked.
June 27th, 2009 at 8:51 pmLefty Liberal,
I’m not a Republican.
I’m a CONSERVATIVE.
June 27th, 2009 at 8:54 pmTimmeh, nice to see you slink back. But you aren’t a conservative, you are a bought and paid for coward.
Go lay by your dish.
June 27th, 2009 at 8:54 pmTimmy boy, you still have your head somewhere dark and smelly.
June 27th, 2009 at 9:01 pmHoodathunk. you’re pretty cocky for a former cheerleader of the guy that’s now propping up Bush policies.
June 27th, 2009 at 9:02 pmbackup, you are pretty cocky for someone who advocated the pissant policies in the first place.
June 27th, 2009 at 9:05 pmHoodathunktick Says:
——————————————————————————–
backup, you are pretty cocky for someone who advocated the pissant policies in the first place.
June 27th, 2009 at 9:05 pm
SMACK!!
June 27th, 2009 at 9:07 pmAnd backup. I cheerlead America. Not political parties. You want a party, move to Martinique. There is work to be done here.
June 27th, 2009 at 9:10 pmTim Vaculik Says:
Lefty Liberal,
“In the last election, I held my nose and voted for Obama even though I knew he was a right of center politician.”
Either you simply do not know who Obama really is or you have a VERY skewed sense of left-center-right to make a statement like that!
Obama is a statist, an idealogue who has much more in common with rulers like Hugo Chavez, etc., than any U.S. President in HISTORY.
Obama is actually VERY far from the center, my friend, and it isn’t towards the right.
You are so far to the right that anyone to the left of you is socialist…You probably don’t even know what socialism is, besides what you hear from Rush or the other talking heads…
June 27th, 2009 at 9:39 pm83. backup Says:hanshiro. Okay. I’ll listen to you. If my explanation is hollow, what is it that you think motivates Obama to do this?
Obama’s motivations are irrelevant. The Constitution and his sworn oath are clear. Detention without trial is unconstitutional, however much first bush, and now Obama wants to dither, rationalize and double-talk his way around it.
Habeas Corpus.
The American people voted for Obama based on his promise to change the very policies he is now embracing; Not to mention restoring the rule of law. If he cannot handle it, he needs to step down, and not ratchet-up the insanity…
June 27th, 2009 at 9:48 pmGive em hell Han.
June 27th, 2009 at 9:50 pmperhaps there is a good reason for it that we don’t understand.
Obama was supposedly elected to rectify this situation. It would make sense that he would if it was the best thing for us to do.
June 27th, 2009 at 9:52 pmbackup, are you really that simple? Obama was elected because people were getting tired of the Republican gimme gimme I need credo. You have been reading too many Robin Hood stories.
June 27th, 2009 at 9:55 pmThe American people voted for Obama based on his promise to change the very policies he is now embracing; Not to mention restoring the rule of law.
What goes around, comes around. President Obama has basked in some nice approval numbers so far. A few more Friday night nasties, a few more ‘yeah I said that on the campaign trail but’ things and folks won’t be impressed if he spends money to make the tennis court over to a b-ball court.
June 27th, 2009 at 10:03 pmWe elect leaders to the white house every four years. It’s safe to say we are not privy to all the information that they are. There is an element of trust.
I gave Bush the benefit of the doubt. I now give Obama the benefit of the doubt.
These aren’t evil people that are just jacking with the Constitution or the system just because they can.
Regardless of whether I give them the benefit of the doubt, the regulars here should consider this:
These policies are now progressive policies. The holdovers from the Bush administration that Obama will continue, the indefinite detention, the surge in Afghanistan and push into Pakistan, the showdown with Korea, no impeachment hearings, Iranian relations, economic trends going forward, and so on.
Progressives successfully convinced the American people to entrust them with leadership. Significant majorities in both houses and a progressive in the white house.
Blame it on Bush used to work pretty good. More and more, it sounds like a desperate diversion.
I suggest toning down the rhetoric on all our leaders or start calling for more impeachment. Because the fantasy government of progressives you thought would simply right all the wrongs, is just that, a fantasy.
June 27th, 2009 at 10:12 pmI suggest toning down the rhetoric on all our leaders or start calling for more impeachment. Because the fantasy government of progressives you thought would simply right all the wrongs, is just that, a fantasy.
Piss off, backup. The current President is trying to repair the damage from the last administration. There is absolutely no reason for even thinking impeachment if you gave a bye to his predecessor. And the fantasy you pissants talk about for making our country work is only one you can’t imagine. Your fantasy is war and world domination. The rest of us just want America.
Sux to be you.
June 27th, 2009 at 10:22 pmObama will be a one term president if he keeps this up. He has already lost my vote for it because I cannot vote for someone who disregards the rule of law thus undermining the Constitution.
June 27th, 2009 at 10:25 pmIt appears to me that the MSM is Republican and neo-con when it comes to foreign and military affairs. The myth of the liberal media will die hard, and while doing so, the press will do what it can to make sure that Democratic presidents are brought down for not making everybody happy. Obama came into office with the financial world on its knees, a massive economic meltdown, the clusterphuck of Guantanamo in place, two wars in progress, a messed up military, and a divided and frustrated and racist population.
Now, every little thing is scrutinized before he does it, and liberals and progressives are ready to throw up their hands and condemn him completely—six months into his presidency—on the basis of rumors about a single issue concerning a legal nightmare that Congress isn’t helping with.
The man is pushing for a public healthcare option, working toward sane policy in the Middle East, working on nuclear arms reductions and abiding by our nuclear treaties, dealing with the financial crisis, and trying to make lasting changes. Everything he wants to do is a fight. He hasn’t comleted his cabinet, because of all the holds put on his nominees. I’m sure Dawn Johnson would be helpful with this issue. He truly has the long-term in mind and wants as much as possible for issues to be handles lawfully.
Every time he doesn’t act in a way that is both ideal to liberals and imperious, a significant portion of the left throws up it’s hands and says “Bush-Lite”.
I watched Chris Rock’s “Kill the Messenger” last night, and I so hear what he was saying when he talked about the neighborhood he was living in. He was one of four blacks in his neighborhood. One was a great R and B singer, one a great rapper, one Eddie Murphy, and him. The white guy next door was a dentist. It definitely looks to me like a black president has to be a great president or he’s Bush league.
June 27th, 2009 at 10:25 pmnicely said, rhf.
June 27th, 2009 at 10:40 pmrepublicans hate facts:
That being said, yes we should hold him accountable, we should put pressure on the administration from WITHIN THE PARTY as this post does. He won’t reverse course until he feels like he’s losing his base.
I’m not sure I can even support him from within the party. The Democratic Party is really nothing more than the Republican Party without the bible-thumping (well, more or less).
If Obama doesn’t create the “Change we can believe in” that he said during the election, then I can’t, and won’t, vote for him again.
I did so in the last election, but only because I thought he would be slightly better than McCain because he is more intelligent and I thought he wouldn’t make as many stupid moves. At least he seems to be handling Iran somewhat OK for now. I guess that is one thing in his favor. I’m afraid McCain would be invading by now.
June 27th, 2009 at 10:44 pmi get that low down disgusted pissed off feeling when i think about mcDOLT & co. running their mouths off about how obama should be handling the iran situation, and i see headlines like these:
Iran’s President Rebukes Obama; Candidates Reject Election Review
Washington Post – Thomas Erdbrink, William Branigin – ?4 hours ago?
TEHRAN, June 27 — President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad added new fuel to an intensifying spat with President Obama on Saturday, denouncing what he called “insulting” comments about a crackdown on protesters, …
Ahmadinejad accuses Obama of interfering in election CNN
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad regime plots purge after Iran election protests Times Online
neoCON bastrds don’t even want to have peace… much less give it a chance…
and afghanistan election coming soon…
June 27th, 2009 at 11:01 pmgee, i wonder what kind of trouble they can stir up there…
Anyone surprised by this was hoodwinked to the max!
June 27th, 2009 at 11:12 pmkaty:
I’m just worried that Obama will follow his recent history and start listening to the Republican right wing and stir things up in the middle east, rather than listen to the left and work on trying to repair the damage that has been caused by Bushco.
Afghanistan is yet another problem. As long as Hamid Karzai is in power, he and the rest of that government will be viewed as puppets of the US. If Obama keeps propping that government up, and not let the people determine their own fate, we will constantly have problems.
As my dad is always telling me “cheer up, things will get worse”. Yeah, that’s what I’m afraid of…
June 27th, 2009 at 11:15 pmPiss off, backup. The current President is trying to repair the damage from the last administration.
“Obama considering an executive order allowing indefinite detention.”
LOL!
June 27th, 2009 at 11:20 pmI guess we are going to wait around for North Korea to get a missile capable of hitting the United States, make threats to attack us, do the dirty deed, then we will go the U.N. and ask for permission to respond. I live in the Los Angeles area. I pray that North Korea doesn’t throw a nuclear tipped missile at us. All I can do is pray. It is obvious our government is not going to do anything to stop it from happening prior to the fact.
June 27th, 2009 at 11:25 pmSo who is the Progressive candidate that is going to win the next election and when did the U.S. population become predominately Progressive and stop thinking that “liberal” is an epitaph?
It seems to me that if Progressives want a Progressive president that will satisfy them, then the challenge is to convince the American people that that’s what they want and find progressive leaders who can win elections. Since we don’t want a king to make everything the way we want it, that means Progressives at every level of government, and in the mainstream media.
Right now, the MSM calls anything left of center “Socialism”. The meme that the Third Reich was liberal goes relatively unchallenged. Reaganomic policies that have failed spectacularly are being shouted from the rooftops. Congress is a bizarre spectacle and an argument for lithium. The wacky right still has a strong-hold on the public’s worldview. There really isn’t a sufficiently strong liberal voice in the MSM, much less a consistently Progressive voice.
Whatever you think of Obama, he is working within a system that was dominated by neocons six months ago. McCain could be president now, and a large part of the American population wanted him to be president. Most Americans don’t expect President Obama to be Progressive, and if they want him to be, they aren’t aware of it.
If you want a Progressive presidency and a representative democracy, you have to change more than one mind. The 18% are a waste of time as is evidenced by threads here that are knee deep in troll-piss and the continuing re-arguing that there is, in fact, a scientific consensus on global warming.
How many Americans know what Progressivism is? How many Progressive members of Congress are there, and how often do we hear from them? If we want to be an effective political movement, we’ve got a hell of a lot more work to do than being disappointed with President Obama—who was always a pragmatist and never promised a Progressive revolution.
Right now, I’m beginning to worry that the next president will be Republican. I’ll take an imperfect Democrat.
June 27th, 2009 at 11:43 pmPresident Barack Obama(aka Hiram Milquetoast) has the smoothness of elevator music but without the need for contemplation of its’ deeper meaning in our lives. As with the life and death of Sweet Micheal; President Obama’s work on behalf of Democrats seems “to fade to white ” like the exterior paint found on private country clubs all over this wonderful country of ours.
June 27th, 2009 at 11:57 pm
June 27th, 2009 at 11:58 pmRaw Story
Well said, wiley. :)
June 28th, 2009 at 12:15 amI don’t get the sense he’s considering this EO because he thinks Bush wasn’t so bad after all gee golly, but that it’s a strategy to summon movement from congress. Even at least one civil liberties group stated that while they don’t like indefinite detentions, they’d like to see it in EO form if it’s to be. If congress would get off its ass as keep up with this president, we’d be right on track with closing gitmo.
Instead, they worry they’re that the big terrorist will be moving into their backyards. GOP smoke-and-mirrors the dems fall and roll over for is the reason we’re six months in and President Obama’s vision is still “hope” and not real legislation.
When’s the next vacation, congress? Don’t strain yourselves.
June 28th, 2009 at 12:32 amrepublicans hate facts:
I have read your posts long enough that I wouldn’t take what you said as offense.
Obama isn’t a liberal and those that weren’t paying attention to that during the primaries are upset as one would expect. If the change you were hoping for was that he be a liberal, he never promised that. In fact he promised the opposite.
If you have read any of my previous posts, you would know that I only voted for Obama simply because I felt he would make smarter decisions than McCain, not because I thought he was liberal/progressive. On the contrary, I knew he was right-of-center. My disappointment is with the fact that he is reversing his campaign promises. There were a number of more progressive ideas that he presented. I was hoping for a little better out of him.
That’s why I fought so hard for candidates that were as far left as I could during the primaries. That’s the only place you can make any real difference.
Agreed. Unfortunately, there doesn’t seem to be a candidate that can get past the MSM without them making the candidate look like a loon. Corporate America at work yet again.
June 28th, 2009 at 12:51 amrepublicans hate facts Says:
That being said, yes we should hold him accountable, we should put pressure on the administration from WITHIN THE PARTY as this post does. He won’t reverse course until he feels like he’s losing his base.
Hmmm…I said he has lost my vote for reelection at this point. Losing votes wouldn’t make Obama feel like he is losing his base? Also, you don’t know the reasons I voting for Obama, so assuming I did because he was liberal is a bit presumptious of you. How do you propose we put pressure on him then and not also consider it “whining” as you put it?
June 28th, 2009 at 1:22 amAnd WE DISAGREE WITH HIM.
Yet still defend him tooth and nail?
June 28th, 2009 at 2:00 amhttp://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=14194910&ch=4226714&src=news
Anybody want to go to patsy’s house?
June 28th, 2009 at 2:21 amBriseadh na Firefly,
Great summation!
http://tpzoo.wordpress.com/2009/06/27/the-ethics-of-indefinite-detention-101/#comments
I know…
… My heart did the computations.
90 TORTURED!
90 RECRUITS!
.
June 28th, 2009 at 2:34 amI don’t know why my post won’t post, so I apologize for repeated posts if they appear. I don’t usually post long screeds, but I’m genuinely concerned right now about the direction our country is moving. That’s not to say that my primary concern is the direction the president is moving.
Is this not the same country we were in during the election campaigns? Is there any reason to believe that the nation has moved to a Progressive world view and that the president should act accordingly?
Is there any reason to think that the U.S. is concerned about justice and adhering to our ideals to such a degree that people are actually willing to do what it takes to rectify injustice? Isn’t the illegal invasion, destruction, and violent occupation of Iraq the most evil phucking thing you’ve ever seen your government do? Unjust as the situation of the Guantanamo prisoners is, does it not pale in the light of an entire nation destroyed and poisoned? We are still responsible for that, as Americans.
And the world is still reeling from a global financial crisis, the likes of which has never been seen, which our government can take a credit for.
The people of the United States haven’t even begun to think of what it means to make reparations to the people of Iraq.
Now it appears that a considerable part of the U.S. population believes that the people imprisoned at Guantanamo is of the super-terrorist variety that pulled off 9/11, and these people are even afraid to have these prisoners transferred into U.S. super-max prisons.
Is there a Progressive movement manifest in the U.S. that is convincing the majority that this is fallacious thinking? Nevermind the 18%, they need treatment. But have we really paid our dues as Progressives to the degree that we can honestly say that we are deserving of a Progressive government?
June 28th, 2009 at 2:36 amRemember, these prisoners are victims of the WOT, and an attempt to demonstrate to Americans that there was a tie between Saddam Hussein and 9/11 to justify the invasion of Iraq. There wasn’t. Yet there lies Iraq, raped and bleeding, and we are not in the habit of hearing from their government, much less the people of Iraq.
Isn’t that an eerie absence? The voices of the people we claim to have saved from despotism? Seems to me we, as a nation, will look at anything else, but.
June 28th, 2009 at 2:50 amAttention!
June 28th, 2009 at 8:13 amAll trolls,weak-minded,whiny,NIMBISTIC followers of Rush,Hannity,Beck,O’Lielly…School of Thought, who attend the Chickenlittle Church of FOX NEWS “We’ll Tell You What to Think!” Convicted terrorists are all ready in the Homeland!!
That’s right, 355 of the worst of the worst,are in our prisons across the Motherland!
Killers like Zacarias Moussaoui, the Sept 11 planner,
Terry Reid the attempted Shoe-Bomber,
the bombers of the ‘93 WTC,
Terry Nichols the homegrown OK City bomber,
Ted Krazinski(SP)the Unabomber
and soon to be the abortion Dr killer!
That’s right lemmings, the abortion DR. killer is a domestic terrorist!
How come your not “Up in Arms” about these killers jailed across the country?
Oh that’s right,it doesn’t fit the Fox News agenda of keeping the “FEAR Factor” ratched up arse-hole tight!
It’s no wonder this nation voted for Bush twice, it’s full of mindless,faux-christian Chickenlittles!
NOT the Change We worked so hard to elect.
SIGN THE PETITION & Forward our website to all
http://ANGRYVOTERS.ORG
God bless
NOTE: We are helping progressive groups cause prosecution of the torturers simply by doing the commenting we normally do on related news articles and blogs. It really Works! Takes no more time than you already devote to commenting.
How do we do that. Simply by adding the text below after our daily comments on news articles and blogs.
SIGN THE PETITION
To Prosecute Those who Tortured In Our Name at ANGRYVOTERS.ORG
http://ANGRYVOTERS.ORG
————————————-
It Really Is THAT SIMPLE.
Do this yourself on related articles and you will reach readers who are sympathetic to prosecution of those who conspired to torture.
Just One of our commenters causes over 5,000 new petition signers to go to the petitions each month. With only a few comments a day!
If you were to help by just adding our Url to the bottom of a half dozen of your daily comments you too could help add 5,000 signatures a month to the Petitions to Indict and Prosecute Bush, Cheney and staffers who conspired to Torture in our Name.
.
June 28th, 2009 at 9:06 amThat sounds good. Done. Now I’ll get my friend next to me to sign it.
June 28th, 2009 at 9:27 amwiley. and others.
You do a wonderful job of articulating half the story. I trust Obama. He is sitting at the center of a mass of information that we are probably not aware of.
I believe that he would do the right thing. If that right thing is to doggedly communicate to the people over the heads of Congress (which is Democratically controlled) to change the situation, he would do that.
The problem is, you consider only half the story. I’m not sure the world is as peaceful or enlightened as you take it to be.
Here’s from Iran:
http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20090625/ML.Iran.Election/
Obama has done a wonderful job of respecting their sovereignty. Although this tactic seems the most enlightened in theory, maybe it just doesn’t work in reality.
Maybe we have to make a choice. A choice to defend our interests and the interests of who we believe are those that support freedom. Maybe if we choose not to do that, our altruistic attempts to compromise will only enable those that threaten our interests and limit our ideal of liberty.
In short, do we defend our interests or cede them in the name of unreciprocated compromise?
June 28th, 2009 at 12:05 pmbackup,
Good points.
For enlightenment on how a TRUE American leader would act in the same situation, go listen to President Reagan’s speech during the Polish crisis when Lech Walensa and the Solidarity movement were facing the tyranny of their communist overlords!
Now Reagan was a President that stood on American and need I say universal principles of Freedom and justice.
June 28th, 2009 at 12:24 pmThe Bush policies and practices have made it impossible to deal with this. His policies were not right and therefore Obama continues them — it’s because his policies were so wrong that it is impossible NOT to continue them while something can be figured out.
June 28th, 2009 at 12:49 pm134.backup Says: You do a wonderful job of articulating half the story. I trust Obama. He is sitting at the center of a mass of information that we are probably not aware of.
I believe that he would do the right thing. If that right thing is to doggedly communicate to the people over the heads of Congress (which is Democratically controlled) to change the situation, he would do that.
And you doggedly push the “Just trust them” meme for some unfathomable reason.
That is not what Obama ran on.
That is not what Obama promised.
That is not what the American people deserve.
That is bullsh¡t secrecy and cloaking government business under the auspices of surrendering our government and our rights to “those who know better, don’t worry your little heads.”
When (another) truly addled nutjob manages to cheat his way into the WH, will you then claim that his secrecy is okay? He will use Obama’s rationale and justifications to basically tell you to bugger off about what the hell he’s doing with your government….just like Obama is now.
Your naive defense of the indefensible is at the least sadly ignorant and at most tantamount to handing hundreds of years of fledgling democracy to a KGB-style or autocratic regime after securing, with your witless assent, all your Constitutionally mandated responsibility to protect your country from interior rot and corruption.
It’s asinine, nothing less.
June 28th, 2009 at 1:12 pmThis is my first post here. You can grill me later if you want. I’m pretty sure I will not be well liked here, but I aim for at least some respect.
(Opinion)
Really, Obama is in a darned if you do, darned if you don’t situation here with this issue.
Most of you and I agree that the Constitution is clear on this issue: that we cannot hold anyone without due process of law. Even the worst elements of society get it. Therefore, the progressive base (you) and even a few moderates (me) get really angry at him breaking a promise.
However, if he prosecutes these people, any sensible jury will release them because of the illegal evidence gained by torture, etc. That would be political suicide for his re-election campaign in ‘12, and regardless of his stances, he will always remain just another politician who is risk averse, even IF it is the right thing to do.
Obama won with an uneasy coalition in ‘08, and many factors (strong youth vote like me) are traditionally unreliable. If he is seen as releasing these people, he can kiss states like CO, NV, and VA goodbye, let alone traditionally conservative states like IN and NC.
The more I look at it, the more I think Obama is a one-term president. It’s sad, considering I thought he held so much promise when I voted for him.
June 28th, 2009 at 7:27 pmThat’s the thing… we’re pretty far down the wrong path here thanks to the Bush Administration and you can’t just “undo” Gitmo and torture with the stroke of a pen.
They’ve got prisoners in Gitmo, many of whom are undoubtedly very dangerous, who they can’t simply turn loose, and who can’t be easily charged and tried because of torture-tainted evidence.
We need to close Gitmo and we need to begin to wash the stains of torture from our reputation and we need to charge and try the accused in the respectable and honorable manner we once knew.
Hopefully we’re moving forward here.
June 28th, 2009 at 7:33 pm