Torture By Mexican Government In Drug War Highlights U.S. Loss of Credibility On Human Rights
Torture By Mexican Government In Drug War Highlights U.S. Loss of Credibility On Human Rights
The Washington Post reports today that the Mexican government has employed numerous torture techniques to extract confessions from suspected drug traffickers. The techniques included beatings, suffocation with plastic bags, electric shocks, the insertion of needles under suspects’ finger nails, water torture, and other abuses.
Under what’s known as the Mérida Initiative, the U.S. government agreed in 2007 to provide Mexico with $1.4 billion in funding to fight the war on drugs, but 15 percent (or $90.7 million) of the original funding and $24 million authorized under the Obama administration will be released only after the “secretary of state reports that Mexico has made progress on human rights.”
The reports of torture put that money’s release in jeopardy. As a result, Mexican human rights workers are accusing the U.S. of hypocrisy when it comes to human rights abuses, citing the mistreatment of suspected terrorists under President Bush. The Post explains:
Many Mexican human rights activists do not support the [human rights] conditions, noting that they were imposed by a U.S government widely accused of torturing prisoners in Iraq, Afghanistan and at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
“It really takes a lot of cynicism, a lot of hypocrisy, for the United States to say, ‘We will give you money to fight drug trafficking as long as you respect human rights,’” said José Raymundo Díaz Taboada, director of the Acapulco office of the Collective Against Torture and Impunity, which documents abuses in Guerrero.
The accusations of hypocrisy highlight one of the hard-to-quantify costs of the Bush administration’s use of torture against suspected terrorists to extract unreliable intelligence: the loss of credibility as a champion of human rights. In recent months and years, in fact, a growing number of nations have rejected calls from the U.S. to end human rights abuses, citing the Bush administration’s actions:
China: In response to the State Department’s annual human rights report critical of the Chinese government, a government spokesman said the report “exposed the double standards and downright hypocrisy of the United States on the human rights issue, and inevitably impaired its international image.” [3/12/2008]
Iran: The L.A. Times reported on Iran’s latest response to the State Department’s latest human rights report, writing, “Iranian officials regularly accuse the West of hypocrisy in zeroing in on Iran’s human rights record, citing prisoner abuse allegations in the prison facility at Guantanamo Bay. [3/11/09]
Russia: In response to criticism from former Vice President Dick Cheney regarding Russia’s human rights abuses, then-Russian President Vladimir Putin asked, “Where is all this pathos about protecting human rights and democracy when it comes to the need to pursue their own interests?” [5/11/06. Similar remarks: 3/27/08]
Venezuela: The Venezuelan government responded to a recent State Department report on Human Trafficking, saying, “It is scandalous that a country…where torture has been practiced and terrorists are protected, pretends to prop itself up as a judge of human rights in the world.” [6/19/09]
As Matt Yglesias recently explained, the abuses that go on in Iran, China, North Korea, and other nations are perpetrated on a much wider scale and have gone on far longer than those that occurred in U.S. detention centers in Iraq, Afghanistan and Cuba. But the fact remains that “whenever you read about these kind of techniques being applied in Iran or North Korea, it’s immediately apparent to everyone that it’s torture, it’s cruel, it’s inhumane, and it’s wrong.” Indeed, it was immediately apparent to the world that the U.S. abuses were torture as well. Now, Obama must work to rebuild the credibility that his predecessor squandered.
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Thanks alot Bush, you simpleton.
July 9th, 2009 at 1:31 pmTo quote the Everly Brothers
“Our reputation is shot…”
July 9th, 2009 at 1:31 pmThe shockwaves of BushCo’s crimes, and the lack of investigation and prosecution of those crimes, will be heard ’round the world for years to come.
So much for that “moral highground” bullshit argument. The U.S. is no longer in a position to talk human rights with any nation.
PEACE
July 9th, 2009 at 1:32 pmGee, all this human pain and stupidity and suffering could easily be ended by decriminalizing drugs. If all plant-based drugs were made legal, then drugs such as pot would become mere agricultural commodities, and sell for such a low price, that there would be no criminal activity possible. Portugal decriminalized drug possession and drug use back in 2001 or 2002 and by 2007 the levels of drug use dropped in half. So about half of drug use is by kids trying to rebel. If drugs are not illegal, then taking drugs will not be a method of rebellion. But in psycho-fascist America, we have to have drugs illegal, so that we can make movies about drug crimes and so MSNBC will have something to fill their weekend airwaves…
July 9th, 2009 at 1:33 pmYou wanna rebuild America’s credibility? Arrest George W. Bush, Richard Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Alberto Gonsalez, Karl Rove and the rest of the Bush Crime Family and charge them, rightly, with war crimes and treason against the United States. Use that overwhelming volume of evidence that you collected that is now gathering dust in the back of some White House closet, get a copy of the Red Cross’s report, get your AG on the phone and get the effing ball rolling allready! It’s not for lack of evidence or a consensus of a majority of the people…politics is standing in the way of restoring our reputation with the rest of the world. I’m not asking for a kangaroo court just the use of our current laws applied indiscriminately to the members of the former Administration. The facts will stand on their own.
July 9th, 2009 at 1:35 pmIt is real hard for the fox to condemn the weasel when it is spitting feathers.
July 9th, 2009 at 1:36 pmUS GOVERNMENT ; DO AS I SAY NOT AS I DO.
WORLD; FU** YOU HYPOCRITE!!!
GOOD!!! THE CHICKENS HAVE COME HOME TO ROOST!!!
The only way to become a leader is to absolve your mistakes by bringing the criminals to trial!!!!
USH…GOD BLESS THE UNITED STATES OF HYPOCROCY.
July 9th, 2009 at 1:36 pmHoodathunktick Says:
Okay, that’s exactly what I was trying to say, but you have the knack for turning a phrase!
PEACE
July 9th, 2009 at 1:39 pmThanks, Bushie – heckuva job.
July 9th, 2009 at 1:40 pmThe chickens come home to roost.
I believe that is the vernacular.
This is thanks ENTIRELY to Bush and the modern republican torture apologists.
America no longer holds the ‘morl high ground’, and no longer holds ANY respect in the world. America is now, thanks to Bush and his enablers (that’s YOU, republicans), and his ‘war on terror”, and all that has entialed, worse that “bottom of the barrel”. America is now the great land of hypocrisy and self-righteousness.
Osama Bin Laden is quite proud of how well Bush and his republican “base” have manged to destroy America and all that she once was.
July 9th, 2009 at 1:43 pmOh, FOR THE LOVE OF…. I am late again with my response!!!!
O.k. Y’all win. Lunch is over, anyway.
I’ll go back to the shallow end of the gene pool, and sulk…..
July 9th, 2009 at 1:45 pmBefore anyone gets too carried away with blaming BushCo, we are over 6 months into a Presidency that promised change. So far the policies we have seen have done nothing but reinforce the program.
Unless something changes radically soon we just exchanged one fox for another. The honor of the US isn’t a chess game. Right now it is a turd circling the bowl.
July 9th, 2009 at 1:46 pmCagey, reinforcement is never wasted.
July 9th, 2009 at 1:47 pmThis is the first time i’m saying this…..FUC* YOU OBAMA….DO YOUR FU**EN JOB AS PER THE CONSITUTION AND TREATIES THAT THE US HAS SIGNED!!!
WHO’S ASS HAVE YOU BEEN KISSING.
KUCINICH 2012….ENOUGH!!!
July 9th, 2009 at 1:49 pmAs we have all said, “This will come back to bite us.”, and it has…
…of course our scum sucking conservative trolls will say…
…”What other countries think of us doesn’t matter.”
Which shows just how little they understand anything outside of their trailer parks.
July 9th, 2009 at 1:49 pm“I call on all governments to join with the United States and the community of law-abiding nations in prohibiting, investigating, and prosecuting all acts of torture … ”
George W. Bush
Don’t blame George, even he is demanding action. Are you listening Mr. President?!
July 9th, 2009 at 1:54 pmThe message that the rest of the world gets is this:
It’s not torture when Americans do it.
It’s no wonder they refuse to take any lectures on Human Rights from any administration while abuses (at Guantanamo and other places) continue under the pretense of “fighting terrorism”.
July 9th, 2009 at 1:55 pmNow, Obama must work to rebuild the credibility that his predecessor squandered.
Ironic, considering Obama is not only perpetuating bush’s policies about detainees, but instituting more extreme policies including indefinite detention of acquitted prisoners and the insane ‘preventative detention.’
I don’t know if you’re being willfully ignorant, TP, or just plain disingenuous. Obama is actively doubling down on bush’s insanity and pissing away his credibility too. The fact that TP takes pains to avoid Obama’s already documented culpability strains their own credibility.
Read Greenwald, McClatchy, or any of several places where they post the truth. Apparently TP hasn’t been keeping up and prefers to limit bald civil rights violations to the bush administration while unconscionable policies continue and are defended under Obama.
Your bias is showing, Faiz.
July 9th, 2009 at 1:56 pmI have to say, as important as fixing the economy, DADT repeal, etc is (are?), returning to the rule of law and rejoining the civilized nations of this world is the most important task on President Obama’s desk. If he procuecutes bush officals and winds up having that used against him in 2012 and becomes a one term President, well I can live with that, it’s the right thing to do, for the good of the country.
July 9th, 2009 at 1:58 pmCome on now. We can’t be too upset when we have an administration telling the rest of the world to be vegetarians while he sits down to a roast beast dinner.
Makes perfect sense.
July 9th, 2009 at 1:59 pmhanshiro the reactionary says crap that aint so.
We no longer torture. That is the topic of the thread.
July 9th, 2009 at 1:59 pmThe U.S. lost it’s moral high ground with the first death of an Iraqi civilian.
We invaded a country that nothing to do with the killing of innocent civilians on our soil and killed tens of thousands of their innocent civilians on their soil.
And now we’re doing the same in Pakistan. I’d say the chickens have come home to roost but the chickens are the neocons who beat the war drums whilst tucked away, safe from harm’s way.
PEACE
July 9th, 2009 at 1:59 pm.
Well, you know how that saying goes…
… If you can’t join ‘em, beat ‘em.
Oh, that’s not the way it goes?
.
July 9th, 2009 at 2:00 pmYour article speaks of failed nations governed by failed politicians.
July 9th, 2009 at 2:02 pmO.k. before I go… Thanks Hoodathunktick. (humbled) you are correct about reinforcement.
I must, however, reitterate that I do not think that we should hold a politician to a campaign slogan. Even as a “idea”, it is (really) a bit weak. What we should hold EVERY politician to is doing the right thing, regardless of the carreer political consequences. THOSE are the politicians who are doing what they are supposed to be doing.
Do what is right because it is the right thing to do. And we don’t see much of that at all, now do we?
I am still giving the president room to get his priorities straight. I gave Bush almost 2 years to show his colors, and I don’t see why not allowing the same space to Obama. I’m not suggesting not putting pressure on him to do the right things (as much as we can do that), but I do not think that this is enough time to conclusively cvall him a failure in all regards, nor enough time to conclusively claim that he is just a Bush-lite.
However, he is (and anyone would have been) walking on a razor of approval: he must show some positive actions or I will be actively against all democrats as well as republicans. Obama has his term to accomplish at least a few major things (healthcare being one at the top of my list, closely followed by a laundry list of others). For myself, Obama is the face of the Democratic party, and I will judge them based on what he can accomplish. Odds are I will be looking into the green party (The libertarians seem too… similar …to what we have now. Kind of like “corporate player wannabe’s”, but that is just my impression, and not an educated impression at all).
July 9th, 2009 at 2:02 pmSigh. I’m of two minds regarding this issue.
On one hand, we in Mexico don’t like it when our Army tortures suspects, and those cases should be (and hopefully, are starting to be) properly investigated.
On the other hand, releasing that money would surely help us in the current war against drug traffic, which has been getting uglier these past 6 or 7 years.
July 9th, 2009 at 2:03 pmCouldn’t agree w/you more, Bob. At least it would be for doing the right thing. Better that than being a Gerald Ford and having signed a pardon on a criminal president to shadow your meager time in office.
July 9th, 2009 at 2:03 pmthe abuses that go on in Iran, China, North Korea, and other nations are perpetrated on a much wider scale and have gone on far longer than those that occurred in U.S. detention centers in Iraq, Afghanistan and Cuba.
True as that might be, fact remains that Human Rights violations were invariably deemed, and accepted as being both wrong and illegal.
Even the most egregious abusers tried to conceal their practices and/or denied they ever happened. Torture was always something done under the cover of secrecy.
What the Bush administration did is make torture an acceptable part of political discourse and pretend it was just another tool they could use in their “War on Terror”. They even went as far as to try to redefine what torture actually is.
I think the “those guys have done it longer than we have” is a poor attempt at ridding America’s conscience of guilt on this issue.
July 9th, 2009 at 2:06 pm20.Fred Says: hanshiro the reactionary says crap that aint so. We no longer torture. That is the topic of the thread.
Uh huh. I’ve got a bridge in Brooklyn I can let you have…cheap…
Please challenge me on this topic. Pleeeeeze….
July 9th, 2009 at 2:06 pmThe SHIT has indeed hit the FAN!!
July 9th, 2009 at 2:07 pmThe highest priority for this administration is to restore American law and ideals. In doing so, it can advance the solutions for all of the waste and ruin of the past 30 years.
1) Restore the US as a nation of law and honor and shut the manipulators down.
2) Restore the US honor as a nation that provides health care for all of its citizens at the level of Congressional representatives.
Do those two and we will not only survive but thrive.
July 9th, 2009 at 2:07 pmHoodathunktick Says:
1) Restore the US as a nation of law and honor and shut the manipulators down.
2) Restore the US honor as a nation that provides health care for all of its citizens at the level of Congressional representatives.
3) Please stop importing so many drugs because they’re helping fuel a lot of crime in the rest of the world.
July 9th, 2009 at 2:12 pmTorture by Mexican Government
Gee, I wonder just WHERE they got THAT idea from?
snark
July 9th, 2009 at 2:15 pmThe only way to regain our moral standing is to Prosecute!
July 9th, 2009 at 2:15 pmLuis Chapulin M Says: 3) Please stop importing so many drugs because they’re helping fuel a lot of crime in the rest of the world.
With a little luck, if we can achieve the fantasy dream of the first two, we might know how to do that.
July 9th, 2009 at 2:16 pmGregor Samsa Says:
I think the “those guys have done it longer than we have” is a poor attempt at ridding America’s conscience of guilt on this issue.
Good post.
Note that this exact argument is what “moral relativism” is. I have seen this bandied about (seemingly from the trolls) on occasion, rather recklessly, and inappropriately.
The moral relativist says that something is not immoral if most people do it.
Thus, to argue that, “those other countries have done it, for longer, and more often, so our little bit shouldn’t matter,” is to argue for moral relativism: that the morals of the issue are NOT set matters, and if a large enough sample of people (or, in this case, nations) break the accepted moral, then the moral is nullified.
Moral relativism has a few arguments in its favor, but it fails in the end, and real and believable examples can be brought forward to prove its failure, when we speak of MORALS as opposed to societal laws.
Torture is immoral. Even moral relativists tend to agree with that comment…. and then go right on to justify torture through relativism.
The torture apologists are, in the main, moral relativists and many do not even realize it. Trolls, that includes you.
MUST go… later, gators…
July 9th, 2009 at 2:16 pm.
Bush/Cheney Broke World
.
July 9th, 2009 at 2:19 pmIn a way, I can understand the President’s reluctance to prosecute. The hounds are snapping at his heels.
But the best way to deal with unruly hounds is to put them in their kennels.
July 9th, 2009 at 2:19 pmspencers mom says:
Sorry mom, I don’t think the US had any moral ground to lose.
Think about the following:
-Vietnam
-Agent Orange
-Iran-Contra
-mining Nicaragua’s harbors
-repeatedly sending in the marines to prop up client dictaors in banana republics over the decades
-Grenada
-supplying Saddam Hussein with his WMD
-Spanish-American war
-Mexican war
-slavery
-swindling/exterminating Native Americans
longer list but you get the idea
July 9th, 2009 at 2:22 pmWell, what can you say? All the torturing tyrants around the world look to the US and say “Hey, we may be torturers, but at least we’re not hypocrites!”
And then Bush can look at Obama and say “Hey, we were for indefinite detention without trial, but at least we weren’t hypocrites!”
July 9th, 2009 at 2:23 pmWill the circle of torture be unbroken, bye and bye Lord, bye and bye, O will you torture us way up yonder, in the sky Lord in the sky? All together now….
July 9th, 2009 at 2:24 pmBut I hear they have great health care. :-)
July 9th, 2009 at 2:24 pmIs it reasonable to assume that Mexico could have learned some of their enhanced interrogation techniques (including how to weasel word around them) by either:
a) watching us -or-
July 9th, 2009 at 2:26 pmb) active schooling at the School of the Americas and similar USA initiatives ?
1.4 billion only to Mexico for a war on drugs?
That’s more important than healthcare?
Kind of takes your heart out of paying taxes, es verdad?
July 9th, 2009 at 2:28 pm44.okie dokie Says: 1.4 billion only to Mexico for a war on drugs? That’s more important than healthcare? Kind of takes your heart out of paying taxes, es verdad?
‘Bush’s Folly’ costs $720 Million a day.
Imagine what we coulda done with that….
July 9th, 2009 at 2:33 pmMapleStreet Says:
Is it reasonable to assume that Mexico could have learned some of their enhanced interrogation techniques (including how to weasel word around them) by either:
a) watching us -or-
b) active schooling at the School of the Americas and similar USA initiatives ?
Sadly, no. We’ve a long history of torture by police forces, going all the way back to the 70s. Of course, we do have some original tortures, like Mineral water with tabasco sauce sprayed into the torturee’s nose…
/not proud at all of _that_ part of Mexican culture.
July 9th, 2009 at 2:36 pmokie dokie Says:
1.4 billion only to Mexico for a war on drugs?
That’s more important than healthcare?
Kind of takes your heart out of paying taxes, es verdad?
That’s about half the price of one B2 bomber.
July 9th, 2009 at 2:39 pmUncle Ho says:
Sorry mom, I don’t think the US had any moral ground to lose.
Think about the following:
-Vietnam
-Agent Orange
-Iran-Contra
-mining Nicaragua’s harbors
-repeatedly sending in the marines to prop up client dictaors in banana republics over the decades
-Grenada
-supplying Saddam Hussein with his WMD
-Spanish-American war
-Mexican war
-slavery
-swindling/exterminating Native Americans
longer list but you get the idea
i’m with uncle ho on this… we had no ground to stand on when it came to human rights anyways.
to add to the list
chile
colombia- the “drug war”
indonesia
phillipines
cuba
israel
south africa
in fact in latin america there is a direct correlation between US interaction and poverty rates… the more the US is involved in a latin american nation the higher the poverty rates and the more likely they are to have an abysmal human rights records
its just the facts
we’ve committed human rights violations all over the planet in the name of democracy… but really in the name of top down capitalism
July 9th, 2009 at 2:42 pmhanshiro the antlion Says:
——————————————————————————–
20.Fred Says: hanshiro the reactionary says crap that aint so. We no longer torture. That is the topic of the thread.
Uh huh. I’ve got a bridge in Brooklyn I can let you have…cheap…
Please challenge me on this topic. Pleeeeeze….
Fred stated that the thread is about torture. You have conflated that with the topic of forced rendition, which is a separate issue. You seem to have a reading comprehension problem, since you do this with other topics as well, most notably your erroneous conflation of senate democrats in the healthcare debate, to be representative of the democrats in both houses, when that is not the case. Your seeming arrogance at trying to show up Fred’s ignorance on the subject is misplaced, since you can’t even get the issue being debated correct.
July 9th, 2009 at 2:45 pmAnd hanshiro, check your link to Greenwald. Not once in the whole article (I checked) does he mention the issue of torture. Glenn’s talking about forced rendition, so using him to rebut Fred on the issue of TORTURE misses the mark.
July 9th, 2009 at 2:48 pmNow WTF are we going to do?
July 9th, 2009 at 2:49 pmWhen the US can say we no longer detain people without full due process of our law, then we can claim high moral ground.
The fact that the statement has to include ‘no longer’ is a huge blot of shame on every American.
July 9th, 2009 at 2:49 pmApe-Man Says:
Now WTF are we going to do?
Choice time. Own up to our crap and take the hit and try to be better
Or continue to make believe we are better than the rest of the world while they laugh at us.
July 9th, 2009 at 2:52 pmI guess this can only mean Congress will be jumping on the DOJ to prosecute the Bush cabal. Then the DOJ can make the new administration play ball. something like that…
July 9th, 2009 at 2:55 pm49.barfly Says:
Apparently I command my own retinue who run to their keyboards to assist me…
Fred stated that the thread is about torture. You have conflated that with the topic of forced rendition, which is a separate issue. You seem to have a reading…heehaw…heehaw…
No barf-ly. Both you and Fred completely missed the point. I took full issue with the final sentence of the thread wherein TP inferred that Obama held credibility over his predecessor on this issue. I pointed out where this was not the case. (Oh, and the title refers to human rights which, at last check, includes detention without trial as well as rendition.)
Interesting that both you and fred never address the substance or veracity of a post, preferring instead to attack and impugn a poster personally. Revealing, really, and still as ineffective as before.
I am flattered that you are such devotees, however.
July 9th, 2009 at 2:58 pm50.barfly Says: And hanshiro, check your link to Greenwald. Not once in the whole article (I checked) does he mention the issue of torture. Glenn’s talking about forced rendition, so using him to rebut Fred on the issue of TORTURE misses the mark.
Ah, so devoted, yet such a waste of time.
barf-ly, read the last highlighted excerpt from the Greenwald post on #29. It says that the Bagram detainees are accorded no rights of any kind. That indicates no Geneva Conventions protection.
Apparently I have to chew your intellectual food for you. Keep trying though; Maybe you can catch some semantic error to salvage your ego…
I really am flattered. Really.
July 9th, 2009 at 3:04 pmGeez louise, are you two at it again?
July 9th, 2009 at 3:06 pmcalavzma says:
I had to stop my list where it was, had to go back to work.
July 9th, 2009 at 3:09 pmThere is a reason why the Republicans have been able to frgo march their agenda as long as they have.
Dems and Progressives ONLY SEEM TO WANT TO FIGHT WITH EQUALS.
July 9th, 2009 at 3:13 pmSorry, Uncle Ho, I should have said “so-called moral high ground.” You’re right again, of course.
PEACE
July 9th, 2009 at 3:14 pmthat was frog march.
July 9th, 2009 at 3:14 pmU.S. corporate owned defense and security contractors have no
problem detaining and torturing private citizens in other
countries. Blackwater, GEO Group, Wackenhut, ect….
All bff’s of Cheney/Haliburton. Old school Iran/Contra stuff.
The “Merida Initiative” is just a pretty name for more government sanctioned, taxpayer subsidized, corporate terrorism. Just like the middle east and South America,
July 9th, 2009 at 3:50 pmonly next door.
Uncle Ho Says:
calavzma says:
I had to stop my list where it was, had to go back to work.
its all good
i was just adding to the list to make a point of just how many violations there are
if we were to make a complete list we’d need to do some research (at least i know i would) and it’d be on hell of a long list.
July 9th, 2009 at 3:52 pmFred stated that the thread is about torture. You have conflated that with the topic of forced rendition, which is a separate issue.
i’m with hanshiro on this one
i think the topic is our credibility on human rights more so than it is torture.
forced rendition has a great deal to do with our credibility on human rights.
so i don’t think he misses the point
if you honestly think saying something to the tune of “america no longer tortures” is sufficient you’re denying decades of history in which we have tortured… that is if you honestly think a statement like that is enough. I’m not convinced that we won’t continue to torture and violate human rights under obama…. its hard to think of a single president who’s administration was not guilty of one or the other.
as far as credibility on human rights go… our government has very little.
July 9th, 2009 at 4:07 pmRepublicans also think some accusations are too serious, such as the CIA lying and deceiving, to investigate. Dysfunctional.
July 9th, 2009 at 5:20 pmEither Obama will restore the rule of law the America or he will not. If the prosecutions of Bush/Cheney are postponed so long that these criminals die before they ever see justice, then America will never regain it’s “good guy” standing in the world.
I personally feel no ethical compulsion to obey any American law until that law applies to Bush and Cheney first.
Has the crime rate been going up lately?
July 9th, 2009 at 5:26 pmi’m with hanshiro on this one
i think the topic is our credibility on human rights more so than it is torture.
forced rendition has a great deal to do with our credibility on human rights.
so i don’t think he misses the point
Well, give ‘ol “barf-ly” a chance to show you the error.
Rendition has been around since the Reagan administration, and from then until the Clinton administration, it was used to bring known terrorists to justice. Extraordinary rendition was started during the Bush years, chiefly to avoid American laws against torture of prisoners. There was nothing wrong with past usages of rendition, because it wasn’t used to get around torture, and our international reputation suffered very little from these instances. it wasn’t until Bush started using rendition to put detainees under torture, that the program became controversial, and caused us to be viewed as a human-rights violator, in the world community. It wasn’t rendition that gave us the black eye, it was torture, so hanshiro’s linkage to Greenwald conflates the two issues, when as the thread states:
Torture By Mexican Government In Drug War Highlights U.S. Loss of Credibility On Human Rights
There was no rendition in the Mexican case, and the article the thread references makes no mention of our lost credibility because of rendition, only torture. So hanshiro’s attempt at conflation fails miserably, much as his previous attempt at smearing house democrats to make a bogus point about the single-payer healthcare option.
July 9th, 2009 at 5:53 pmif you honestly think saying something to the tune of “america no longer tortures” is sufficient you’re denying decades of history in which we have tortured… that is if you honestly think a statement like that is enough. I’m not convinced that we won’t continue to torture and violate human rights under obama…. its hard to think of a single president who’s administration was not guilty of one or the other.
Try Jimmy Carter.
July 9th, 2009 at 5:55 pm67.barfly Says: Well, give ‘ol “barf-ly” a chance to show you the error. Rendition has been around since the Reagan administration, and from then until the Clinton administration, it was used to bring known terrorists to justice. ..heehaw…heehaw…
Epic fail, barf…ly.
You completely ignored the context of my post. Notwithstanding your repeatedly tired attempt to impose a truly off topic reference to single payer, one you also lost and also has no bearing on this thread, twice.
Your purpose is clear: Not to engage, not to expand, but to target, attempt to smear and mis-characterize; thus is the domain of trolls and sore losers.
..and you suck at it. Still, I guess one can’t pick and choose ones’ own
July 9th, 2009 at 6:26 pmstalkersgroupies…barfly Says:
if you honestly think saying something to the tune of “america no longer tortures” is sufficient you’re denying decades of history in which we have tortured… that is if you honestly think a statement like that is enough. I’m not convinced that we won’t continue to torture and violate human rights under obama…. its hard to think of a single president who’s administration was not guilty of one or the other.
Try Jimmy Carter.
i did try jimmy carter….
i didn’t look very long, but its pretty clear that we were actively supporting and training death squads in el salvador during jimmy carter’s administration.
its not like it was new to his administration, but it surely didn’t stop under his administration and it continued after it.
so no…. carter’s administration is not free of human rights violations
unless funding and training members of death squads doesnt count.
and i think hanshiro’s point on forced rendition is that its also a violation of human rights, just like torture is
therefore it is also relevant to our credibility on human rights
just as torture is.
the fact that we practice forced rendition and torture puts us in violation on multiple counts. (i know, i know, we said we won’t do it again)
thus hurting our credibility… i don’t see how forced rendition is not relevant to our credibility on human rights.
July 9th, 2009 at 6:29 pmLuis Chapulin M Says:
On the other hand, releasing that money would surely help us in the current war against drug traffic, which has been getting uglier these past 6 or 7 years.
Sorry…what? Help who? The government, yeah. They are expecting that money with foam on the mouth, but we, the people, couldn’t have worse news. The money will buy guns that will be put in the hands of future drugdealers’ agents. Guns won’t stop nothing, far from it, it will arm more people that will seek more money and the big money is in drugdealers’ hands.
Felipe Calderón put the military right after his “victory” in Michoacán, for example. And what happened? We have had the worst assassination records ever. The Mérdia Plan is exactly the Condor PLan from Clinton’s days in Colombia. Result? Paramilitaries killing thousands of peasants.
July 9th, 2009 at 6:30 pmTry Jimmy Carter.
Sorry, barfly. Carter flew Somoza out of NIcaragua (on a Red Cross plane, by the way, violating international law) and continue to fund death squads in Central America, besides protecting a ruthless dictator.
July 9th, 2009 at 6:32 pmThanks
July 9th, 2009 at 7:32 pmJuan C. Says:
Felipe Calderón put the military right after his “victory” in Michoacán, for example. And what happened? We have had the worst assassination records ever. The Mérdia Plan is exactly the Condor PLan from Clinton’s days in Colombia. Result? Paramilitaries killing thousands of peasants.
Well, all I can speak of is from my own experience, the drug cartels have infiltrated my city and state (and sometimes even federal agencies). From what I’ve seen, the military forces have been the ones doing the best work against the drug dealers.
July 10th, 2009 at 11:13 amYour purpose is clear: Not to engage, not to expand, but to target, attempt to smear and mis-characterize; thus is the domain of trolls and sore losers
That rich, and quite ironic, coming from the guy who failed epically at smearing house dems. You really aren’t too good at debate, just over-the top hyperbole. And if you’ll note, I’ve never resorted to ad hominems, which is the sure sign of a losing argument, like yours.
July 10th, 2009 at 11:56 amAnd while Pres. Obama is rebuilding US credibility in the matter of Human Rights, he would do well to take a look at what goes on inside Israeli secret prisons which have been in business for decades.
I certainly haven’t voted to have my taxs dollars go to torturing Palestinians or building Israeli nuclear weapons!
July 11th, 2009 at 2:08 am