Rove digs in: Obama trying ‘to avoid oversight’ by appointing czars.
Rove digs in: Obama trying ‘to avoid oversight’ by appointing czars.
Yesterday, ThinkProgress reported that former Bush adviser Karl Rove made his critical views of President Obama’s various “czars” known on Twitter. Rove called them a “giant expansion of presidential power.” Rove, though, was actually the “domestic policy czar” in the Bush White House, serving as just one of many czars in that administration. In response to various messages from other Twitter users, Rove has been digging in today, saying that Obama is trying to skirt “oversight” and “transparency” by appointing the czars:
Of course, Rove was never actually approved by the Senate either. As Steve Benen points out, Bush had so many czars that “it quickly became the butt of jokes. Newsweek satirist Andy Borowitz suggested in 2007 that the White House needed a ‘lying czar’ to ‘oversee all distortions and misrepresentations.’”
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I seem to remember Bush appointing several “czars” during his tenure, including the perennial “drug czar”, the aforementioned “domestic policy czar” and (iirc) a “reconstruction czar” for Iraq (to name a few).
July 11th, 2009 at 10:57 amObama IS TRYING TO AVOID OVERSIGHT
But its not through “czars” – its by:
1. Refusing to hold the previous administration and the CIA accountable for ANYTHING
2. Continuing to issue signing statements and maintaining cheney & chimpy’s cloak of secrecy.
Sure, its hypocracy for rove to go on TV and make these proclaimations, but he is now a largely marginalized pundit doing his job at faux news.
Its a BIGGER issue when obama and the dems run on YES WE CAN and then in the first 100 days show us “NO WE CAN’T”
I am still willing to give obama a chance – especially for the economic stimulus to work and for health care reform.
But I cannot overlook the many areas where he has already thrown a huge portion of his base under the bus.
July 11th, 2009 at 11:01 amOBAMA ADMIN. REFUSES PROBE OF CIA-BACKED, MASS AFGHAN SLAUGHTER
July 11th, 2009 at 11:02 am
Rove on Twitter reminds me of a gossipy, back-stabbing junior high mean girl…
But not quite as cute or charming.
July 11th, 2009 at 11:05 amOh – and I forgot to mention the ILLEGAL SPYING that we are now finding out was much more widespread than acknowledged.
Again – nothing from the white house even though when obama was an unknown candidate begging for money, he promised to block retro immunity and the FISA reforms.
Yes, he threw us under the bus then.
In the fall he ran on “American Values” and restoring the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Now he is threatening to veto a bill demanding more accountability of the CIA and we have to assume the escalated illegal spying is still going on.
July 11th, 2009 at 11:05 amA quick Google search turns up:
“Three Generals reject Bush offer of War Czar.”
“Bush Appoints Drug Czar.”
“Bush Appoints Car Czar.”
“Bush Backs Creation of Intelligence Czar.”
Antitrust Czar
“As intelligence czar choice, diplomat faces toughest test.”
“Bush proposes Job Czar.”
Do I need to go on? That certainly seems like plenty of “abdication of responsibility” to me.
July 11th, 2009 at 11:07 amOh good, I’m sure he’ll sleep better tonight.
July 11th, 2009 at 11:07 amRove knows his followers are too stupid to check up on the lies he tells them. He understands his base too bad they don’t know how much he disrespects them.
July 11th, 2009 at 11:09 amGood posts Joe, thank you..I don’t agree on us geting a good working health insurance plan for all though..Take a hard look at who President Obama picked for his health person…Thank’s to rham and his tiff with Dr. Dean we lost our best chance of getting a champion for us..
Read from a site that wanted my vote this morning to get senators to go for the health bill that Kerry was one of the highest paid by health lobbiests…Sad new’s come’s across my puter daily..
Oh well, I still have a dog to walk and veggie garden to tend…Blessings.
July 11th, 2009 at 11:10 amDoodlebug Shayne Says:
Another Joe Says:
I am still willing to give obama a chance
Oh good, I’m sure he’ll sleep better tonight.
I know I will. I’ve been tossing and turning, turning and tossing, tossing and turning all night!
July 11th, 2009 at 11:12 amrove also understands that mocking him falls right into the repug playbook.
The obama administration is setting itself up for failure by not clearly differentiating itself on many of these issues.
The mainstream media will “catapult” rove’s propaganda. The echo chamber will resonate with his lies.
And obama is capitulating to the same lying liars on many issues, fracturing his base. Progressive can and should hold the administration accountable for their rhetoric.
If, in 2010 and 2012, the economy is still an issue, the repugs are back in the game.
We can’t control what the repugs/neocons do, but the dems and obama could follow up on their rhetoric from last fall, clearly outlining the differences.
July 11th, 2009 at 11:13 amSomeone needs to tell carl Rove that people are watching his twittering.
July 11th, 2009 at 11:15 amwitch, I have concerns about the direction, and believe we need universal coverage, single payor just like all of our politicians get.
I am willing to give him a chance on issues that are pending or not his top priority – I say this because I voted for him and want to continue to work for and support democratic candidates.
Don’t really give a damn how any of ‘em sleep at night as long as they don’t become lying liars to cover the same criminal cabal behind dur chimpfurher.
July 11th, 2009 at 11:16 amAt least Rove panders to his base. Obama lies and throws his base under the bus and then acts like it’s nothing. That’s cold.
July 11th, 2009 at 11:17 amSssssshhhhhhhhhhhush. :)
July 11th, 2009 at 11:20 amOr how about this one:
Lawmaker won’t deny secret CIA program was ‘Cheney assassination ring’
This is US sponsored terrorist. It is a violation of international law. It’s an act of war. It’s a war crime and the resulting slaughter are crimes against humanity.
Here we have a dem saying, “yup, they did it.”
And then the whole lot of them gives these criminals a FREE PASS for it!
July 11th, 2009 at 11:21 am(via Greenwald:)
Obama turns out to be just a patronizing, lying, sh¡t politician covering bush’s crimes and continuing bush’s policy insanity.
July 11th, 2009 at 11:28 amMost Americans are totally unaware that we just had the LARGEST ENVIRONMENTAL DISASTER in US History.
This coal-ash “spill” is 100 times bigger than the exxon-valdez. Outside of this report, there is virtual no coverage.
Oversight should be provided by TVA, a federally owned corporation in the United States created by congressional charter in May 1933 to provide navigation, flood control, electricity generation, fertilizer manufacturing, and economic development in the Tennessee Valley.
HERE’S a video report that features Erin Brockovich.
Needs to be some “oversight” here…
July 11th, 2009 at 11:32 amMr. Cobb Says:
At least Rove panders to his base. Obama lies and throws his base under the bus and then acts like it’s nothing. That’s cold.
=========
Poppycock!!
Rove is the biggest lier of them all along with the rest of Bush’s Torture Adminastration. Where is “Lying” Liz these days, I see her mouth has been shut and I wonder why?
July 11th, 2009 at 11:32 amranus69 – sure, but WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR HOLDING THESE CRIMINALS ACCOUNTABLE AND WHAT ARE THEY DOING?!?!?!?!?!?!
July 11th, 2009 at 11:36 amYesterday, ThinkProgress reported that former Bush adviser Karl Rove made his critical views of President Obama’s various “czars” known on Twitter. Rove called them a “giant expansion of presidential power.” Rove, though, was actually the “domestic policy czar” in the Bush White House, serving as just one of many czars in that administration. In response to various messages from other Twitter users, Rove has been digging in today, saying that Obama is trying to skirt “oversight” and “transparency” by appointing the czars:
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{
Mr. Rove, Cheney/Bush and the Republican congress spent 6 years running this government without oversight or transparency. Your brillent observations are dishonest and I think you have lost grip on reality.
July 11th, 2009 at 11:36 am19.ranus69 Says: Rove is the biggest lier of them all along with the rest of Bush’s Torture Adminastration.
…and Obama knows many of the secret truths and is actively covering for him and bush’s administration.
Who’s the bigger monster here?
July 11th, 2009 at 11:36 amThe best defense for war crimes is subcontract the work offshore, at least regarding the Afghan War.
http://arisfreedomswitch.blogspot.com/2009/07/obama-no-grounds-to-probe-afghan-war.html
It should be investigated and sent to someone with jurisdiction, the UN or the ICC (of which the U.S. is not a signatory).
July 11th, 2009 at 11:40 amHey, let’s not jump to conclusions. perhaps KKKarl was praising President Obama.
After all, given KKKarl’s record and behavior, one must conclude that he thinks expanding presidential power and avoiding Congressional oversight are good things.
July 11th, 2009 at 11:42 amAs for torture and widespread spying and Obama;s role in supressing investigations and evidence (pictures) consider his visit to the battlefields of WWII:
The world held trials, turned torture/death camps into museum’s, etc. Obama wants none of the above.
Hiding the truth of injustice isn’t the American way…
http://arisfreedomswitch.blogspot.com/2009/06/obama-at-wwii-sites.html
July 11th, 2009 at 11:42 amhanshiro the antlion – IMHO, the “bigger monster” are the criminals that commit these acts.
BUT the politicians that ran on slogans like “accountability” and “yes we can” are the ones that we need to talk about.
Each and every thread here about lying liars from the previous criminal cabal is really about how our current leaders have failed to hold them accountable and stop the crimes, despite using these as their salient issue in the 2006 and 2008 elections.
The folks that continue the same crimes and cover up previous ones are “news” and worthy of discussion because holding them accountable will create progressive change.
Anything less just plays into the repug/neocon playbook.
July 11th, 2009 at 11:43 amIt is possible that President Obama and his Justice Department are conduction all kinds of investigations they’re not telling the public about. Federal prosecutions are usually completely tied up before charges are filed. But it’s probably more fun to just assume the worst of President Obama.
July 11th, 2009 at 11:45 amAm I the only one that has a problem with the use of the word “Czar” to describe an appointment of office under a government that is supposed to be a democracy?
July 11th, 2009 at 11:46 amThere are lots of right wing bash Obama sites out there. I just didn’t think TP was going to be one of them.
July 11th, 2009 at 11:48 amWay to go faux progressives, you’re making Proud happy.
July 11th, 2009 at 11:48 amdoodlebug – it’s possible that they have created a super-ray that will convert all the criminal repugs into peace-lovin’ hippies.
The endless speculation the, “its because of….” all based on thin error are not helpful.
Even if what you say it true, they need to know the public is attuned to the issues.
Holding politicians on BOTH sides accountable is what makes things happen.
Making up excuses and expecting them them to silence or replace a robust dialog is pretty stooooooooooopid – so don’t be surprised if we don’t all jump on board and proclaim your baseless speculation as “wisdom”.
July 11th, 2009 at 11:50 amThye faux progressives are the ones that play into repug/neocons playbooks by trying to silence a meaningful dialog.
Obama is now saying the stimulus won’t “kick on” until next year. Biden and most economists doubt it will even happen then.
He needs to cover his @ss and protect his base by providing meaningful leadership, working for change, in all the areas posted here.
Faux progressives are the ones that deny that America’s progressive movement has a proud tradition and heritage of action. Its always been about more than cheerleading.
It has never been about “shut up and do what I say”.
July 11th, 2009 at 11:53 amI could accept the obama and the dems working towards holding the previous criminal cabal accountable and legitimately finding that they can’t do it – the crimes may have been too well hidden and responsibility cannot be proved beyond a reasonable doubt.
I will not accept throwing us under the bus and declaring that accountability cannot happen.
July 11th, 2009 at 11:55 amvinylspear – spot on. Is that a hold-over from the reagan years? I can’t remember.
Both sides have been “catapulting” that propaganda for so long now, I can’t remember.
July 11th, 2009 at 11:56 am26. Another Joe Says: hanshiro the antlion – IMHO, the “bigger monster” are the criminals that commit these acts. BUT the politicians that ran on slogans like “accountability” and “yes we can” are the ones that we need to talk about.
I disagree.
The idea that a “Constitutional Scholar” can be exposed to the evidence of the most heinous crimes of the last century and not only employ many of the same actors but dismiss any accountability whatsoever is unconscionable.
If the Nuremberg trials were dismissed on the grounds that “we need to look to the future,” there would remain not only a fear of insane war criminals, but the self-professed ‘policemen’ who irrationally decide that accountability and justice are not expedient and need to be cast aside out of convenience.
The case can be made that it’s worse when someone who watches the damage, has read the sacred documents, runs on a platform of accountability and justice, promises a tired and abused nation that it will see restoration of the rule of law..
..then abandons all of that.
A rapist is horrific, but what is the policeman who refuses to apprehend the guilty, telling the woman to forget it and ‘look to the future,’ then starts feeling her up against her will?
Who is the bigger monster here?
July 11th, 2009 at 11:58 amTP Posters aren’t making Proud happy, Obama is.
TP used to report stories about war crime noninvestigations (Pat Tillman). They used to report on Bush’s massive illegal surveillance program. We get Turd Blossom twittering about czars. That’s a big fall from my perspective.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:03 pm37.stateofthedivision Says: TP Posters aren’t making Proud happy, Obama is. TP used to report stories about war crime noninvestigations (Pat Tillman). They used to report on Bush’s massive illegal surveillance program. We get Turd Blossom twittering about czars. That’s a big fall from my perspective.
Yes.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:05 pmUsing the term “Czar” in this country as a semi-official designation is stupid and insulting no matter which administration uses it.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:07 pmI have always been of the mind set if one knows about a crime, do’s nothing for justice and indeed buy’s into it and even go’s so far as abstructing the prosacution of the criminal’s and continues with the criminal deed’s it’s like “acting in concert”…In my mind one is as guilty as the original perps..Silly me, I have an absolute straight forward type of thought process…..P. B. & J
July 11th, 2009 at 12:09 pmAnother Joe, stateofthedivision, and hanshiro the antlion,
Why not team up and start your own blog. I’m sure it will be a blockbuster with the pissing and moaning crowd.
Yeah, we know there are problems. We’re writing and calling our Congress people AND President Obama. It’s taken many, many years to get this country as f ucked up as it is, and it’s going to take a long time to get it fixed.
I know you won’t be satisfied…continue with your assorted tantrums.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:09 pmReading the whining of progressives who are mad that their pet projects and every wrong the president inherited are not fixed yet is like reading the freaking trolls on this board. At least try to imagine why everything wasn’t changed the first six months and then remember that we control both houses and the white house. This is a democracy. Whining is stupid but contacting our representatives is what works. Granted, it doesn’t happen as fast as the internet or video games, but it is the process. Grow up guys.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:10 pmyeah, we never got stories about right-wingers saying stupid stuff back in the good ol’ days…
Good point.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:11 pmRove is a war criminal. Why isn’t he facing prosecution?
Everything out of that man’s mouth is unadulterated repiggie slime.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:12 pmhanshiro the antlion
I respectfully disagree and am not going to proclaim you are wrong and am going to welcome a robust dialog because we agree on the salient issues.
To others I would say, we probably agree on the major issues and work to support the same candidates. Someone does need to hold politicians accountable for their rhetoric.
If you choose not to, that’s up to you.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:13 pmZooey, I’m sure they get more Pop! for their bellyaching here than they would at their own blog. Plus they get to sneer at us for being “fake progressives” because we don’t measure up to their “more progressive than thou” standard.
It’s a win-win for them.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:14 pmralph the wonder locust Says:
Zooey, I’m sure they get more Pop! for their bellyaching here than they would at their own blog. Plus they get to sneer at us for being “fake progressives” because we don’t measure up to their “more progressive than thou” standard.
It’s a win-win for them.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:14 pm
Spot on, ralph.
My Mom used to have a saying about people like that: They’d complain if they were hanged with a new rope.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:16 pm41.Zooey Says: Another Joe, stateofthedivision, and hanshiro the antlion, Why not team up and start your own blog. I’m sure it will be a blockbuster with the pissing and moaning crowd. Yeah, we know there are problems. We’re writing and calling our Congress people AND President Obama. It’s taken many, many years to get this country as f ucked up as it is, and it’s going to take a long time to get it fixed.
If this were a red-state site, and you were handed that apologist bongwater when you complained about bush, would you accept it?
I didn’t think so…
July 11th, 2009 at 12:17 pmAJ, the fact that you’ve decided we’re doing nothing to hold our elected officials accountable simply because we don’t piss and moan on a blog forum says a good bit about your ego. You have no idea how many letters or emails I’ve written to my elected officials, or how many times any of us have contacted our reps.
But you go ahead and fight the courageous fight of leaving comments on a blog. If this nation can preserve its precious freedom , I will give full credit to you and hanshiro and state, because it’s obviously you guys who are holding down the front line of the fight, and no one else.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:17 pmstateofthedivision
SPOT ON – and its especially true when:
1. some want to flame or silence that dialog. It is too funny to read apologists whine that a reasonable dialog is whining! LOL
2. some deny that “progressive politics” has a proud tradition of a robust dialog and working for change.
3. others think they can silence a meaningful dialog by making baseless speculating that “this is all some grand strategy to bide time until the magic carpet gets here!
July 11th, 2009 at 12:18 pmummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm…
ralph – the point is the wingnuts saying stupid things are largely marginalized now.
The folks that could actually do something about this “stupid stuff” are too busy saying hypocritical, stupid stuff.
You can choose which of the 2 groups should be frontpaged, but don’t expect everyone to agree that you made a wise choice.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:19 pm49.ralph the wonder locust Says:
AJ, the fact that you’ve decided we’re doing nothing to hold our elected officials accountable simply because we don’t piss and moan on a blog forum says a good bit about your ego. You have no idea how many letters or emails I’ve written to my elected officials, or how many times any of us have contacted our reps.
But you go ahead and fight the courageous fight of leaving comments on a blog. If this nation can preserve its precious freedom , I will give full credit to you and hanshiro and state, because it’s obviously you guys who are holding down the front line of the fight, and no one else.
See if you can spot the bald irony…..anyone?
July 11th, 2009 at 12:20 pmevangenital Says:
Rove is a war criminal. Why isn’t he facing prosecution?
Because the people that could do it are standing down and, as you can see, a few prolific posters would shout down any dialog about it.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:21 pmhanshiro the antlion Says:
If this were a red-state site, and you were handed that apologist bongwater when you complained about bush, would you accept it?
I didn’t think so…
July 11th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
Of course not, hanshiro. What are you DOING other than b!tching and moaning? Anything? Maybe you think your Senator and Rep read TP?
You all are becoming spamming concern trolls. Well done.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:23 pmThe “more progressive than thou” folks are the ones that would silence a robust dialog because some think we need to talk about the folks that actually could exert some muscle to do something about the wrongs virtually everyone here recognizes.
Some of us do have other blogs and post on different sites, perhaps with different anonymous identities – if we don’t post links and endless promote ourselves (LOL – like the TP clique blog!!!) that’s because we don’t need to share bandwidth with the folks that flame reasonable dialog about who is now accountable for unpunished and continuing crimes of the previous administration.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:24 pmI’ll give it a try… you probably think it’s ironic because I’m belittling people making comments on a blog in a comment on a blog.
Am I close?
See, the thing is, hanshiro, I am under no illusion that I’m fighting some good fight. I know I’m just making snide comments among a community of people who mostly share the same values as I do.
But by all means, charge ahead. Save the world from the wicked Obama. It’s all up to you, man.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:24 pm49.ralph the wonder locust Says:
Anyone spot the irony yet? Ralph, perhaps you can provide the answer?
July 11th, 2009 at 12:25 pmhanshiro the antlion a small group will endless post patently ridiculous crap, whining that others are “whiners” and flaming and trying to silence a robust dialog in the name of freedom.
They have learned their lessons from rove and company well.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:25 pmLOL – zooey just proves my point!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
July 11th, 2009 at 12:26 pmCan anyone spot the bald irony… anyone?
July 11th, 2009 at 12:27 pmTeam up? I thought they were all one person.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:27 pmBut same small group will endless jump on rove for the same type of “rovarian” crap.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:27 pmWow. AJ just lifted Technique number 7 from the Troll Central Playbook.
Nicely done.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:27 pmAnother Joe show…
July 11th, 2009 at 12:28 pmWhat’s up toaday? Same stuff as yesterday? I’ll be passing through Emmaus/Emaus shortly…
Well, look’s like the progressives here want silence from those of us that are writing our rep’s, calling and emailing the white house and working hard for the change we were promised and is not coming…Work’s for me…P. B. & J
July 11th, 2009 at 12:28 pmAnother Joe Says:
The “more progressive than thou” folks are the ones that would silence a robust dialog…
July 11th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
Pure, unadulterated projection. Hilarious!
By clogging every single thread with off topic pissing and moaning, you and your friends are shutting down any possible robust dialog, and drawing attention to your temper tantrums.
Got your own blog? Take it there.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:28 pm58.Another Joe Says: hanshiro the antlion a small group will endless post patently ridiculous crap, whining that others are “whiners” and flaming and trying to silence a robust dialog in the name of freedom. They have learned their lessons from rove and company well.
It’s an old blogging tradition that a small clique of self-appointed sheriffs will steer the ‘consensus’ and expel all the dissent. dKos got slammed for a major purge a few years back for just that reason.
The point they miss is they allow themselves to bellyache over bush, but Obama ist verboten.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:29 pmAnd if a disaster the magnitude of the coal spill, 100 times larger than exxon-valdez had happened under the previous administration, we would all be here screaming about yet another example of incompetence and an inability of the feds to do their job.
And now? [crickets chirping]
July 11th, 2009 at 12:30 pmwhy don’t you take it to your little blog where you are the little goddess?
July 11th, 2009 at 12:30 pmAnother Joe Says:
LOL – zooey just proves my point!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
July 11th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
The pod has completed it’s transformation from human to troll.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:31 pmYou shouldn’t have gone to sleep AJ. We told you not to go to sleep!
What is so annoying is the three holier than thou progressives think they’re the only ones here who read and research other sites and news outlets and they need to keep the rest of us informed because we’re too stupid to do it ourselves. They think we’re as dumb as Rove thinks his followers are. What they don’t know is that many of the points they use to bash President Obama are skewed opinions that have been debunked on other outlets or explained by those more knowledgeable. I’m not saying that’s true on all subjects but on many of them. The problem is they post so much “naysaying” that it’s not worth it to point their error out every time. It’s easier to just tell them we’re not interested but that gives them the illusion of righteousness.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:32 pmyou noticed that too, huh witch?
It would be funny if it wasn’t setting obama up for failure. There are millions that share our concern and are doing what we can to have a dialog.
A few would have you believe it isn’t welcome here, but if you look at the “recommends” each day, you can see otherwise.
No matter what the repugs do now, they are back in the game if the economy is still leaving people hurting, we don’t have universal health care that everyone can afford, and if the previous administration’s crimes are left standing.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:33 pmI thought Rove’s job was to increase executive power. I guess that, like the SCOTUS Bush v Gore decision, only applied to Bush.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:33 pmAnother Joe Says:
why don’t you take it to your little blog where you are the little goddess?
July 11th, 2009 at 12:30 pm
Why don’t you bite me?
July 11th, 2009 at 12:34 pmnope – don’t eat anything that spews vile crap.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:34 pm60.ralph the wonder locust Says: Another Joe Says: hanshiro the antlion a small group will endless post patently ridiculous crap, Can anyone spot the bald irony… anyone?
Ohhh…I know. That a small apologist clique regards legitimate, sourced criticism and justifiable outrage over Obama’s lying as “ridiculous crap?”
That a small apologist clique ad hom attacks the posters and skulks away from answering the ugly truth issues about Obama’s bush redux?
Pick one…
July 11th, 2009 at 12:35 pmLOL – “holier than thou” is talking back to a few that would shout you down, falsely proclaiming that is what EVERY progressive would do!!!!
Post what you want – I won’t say you are wrong, but I will continue the dialog because the sheer stench of your hypocrisy wreaks with every additional flame.
As mom would say, PEACE
July 11th, 2009 at 12:35 pmAnother Joe Says:
nope – don’t eat anything that spews vile crap.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
Thanks for the advice. At least you have some self-awareness.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:36 pmBut the arbiters of all that is progressive think that they should dictate every topic of every thread. And if we choose not to dispute their false assertions in meticulous detail we’re uninformed and trying to shut them down. Hence, we can’t complain about Roves lies until President Obama has them all convicted and sent to prison.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:37 pm74.Zooey Says: Why don’t you bite me?
dbadass stepping in to play “manners advocate” and call out the rudeness in 3….2….1….
*crickets chirping*
July 11th, 2009 at 12:38 pmMaybe she should have told you to STFU a little more often and you wouldn’t be so overbearing.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:38 pmSen. Leahy calls for inquiry; Sen. Feingold slams ‘blatantly illegal and unconstitutional’ abuses
I choose to follow the lead of a national progressive leader like Feingold, but take your marching orders from the “stand down” crowd if you prefer.
But the “holier than thou” attitude are the ones that would should the action of brave leaders like Feingold down!
July 11th, 2009 at 12:39 pmOf course we’re not the ones spamming every thread or getting paid by the RNC to deflect negativity from Rove.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:40 pmThere is no “stand down crowd” you lying sack of cr@p.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:41 pmeverything seems overbearing to mental midgets that think they control the “internets tubes”.
Keep furrowing those brows and squinting your eyes, vainly trying to appear to comprehend while you pound away at the keyboards, turning a reasonable dialog into a flame war and declaring everyone else is a troll for posting anything to challenge your limited world view.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:42 pmOh you’re right AJ, we don’t want justice or convictions of the Bush cabal. What a jerk.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:42 pmJust a question trollies, why are you working so hard to take the heat off of Rove, to see that justice is served?
July 11th, 2009 at 12:42 pmWhen I see you having a reasonable dialogue AJ you’ll be the first to know. Resume your flaming.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:43 pm“stand down” = STFU along with:
1. denials that talk of accountability is how we can work to end the wingnuts hold on the media
2. perpetually pretending to have some meaningful insight into the through process and strategies of our leaders, failing to acknowledge that, even if they had a master plan to quietly solve the issues we blog about, we cover their back by maintaining a robust dialog about why they need to carefully use that strategy in the first place.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:43 pmYou three trolls are no different that the right wing ones. You stifle discussion on the topic and chase people away. The site it all yours until TP bothers to get moderators.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:44 pm71.Doodlebug Shayne Says: What is so annoying is the three holier than thou progressives think they’re the only ones here who read and research other sites and news outlets and they need to keep the rest of us informed because we’re too stupid to do it ourselves.
The fact that one regular poster here didn’t know anything about Obama’s “preventative detention” insanity, thinking instead that it meant letting all the terrorists out of Gitmo, puts the lie to your claim.
The fact is, many links are posted to bring issues to people’s attention who may not otherwise be aware of a particular viewpoint or approach to the issue. Assuming everyone knows all the sources is naive and presumptuous.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:44 pmhanshiro, if posters here felt they needed you to keep them apprised on EVERY issue they’d come to your site wouldn’t they?
July 11th, 2009 at 12:46 pmit is patently absurd to proclaim that holding rove criminally accountable, discussing the need for the current leadership and administration to do so, somehow takes him “off the hook”.
Keep posting, buddy, it’s pretty clear who the flamers are.
Hint: It’s the ones that proclaim everyone else is a troll!
July 11th, 2009 at 12:46 pmOnce again, hanshiro, you and AJ continually misrepresent the criticism directed at you.
it’s not “regarding legitimate, sourced criticism”. It’s regarding the unrelenting, repetitive nature of the criticism, on almost every thread regardless of the topic. It’s the obsessive nature of your spamming, not the criticism yourself.
This distinction has been pointed out dozens of times to you and AJ.
When you distort the valid criticisms against you like this, it makes you sound like a troll.
Besides, it’s kind of ridiculous for three primary critics to demean dozens of other regulars as a “small apologist clique”. I believe The List that was circulating to get AJ to STFU a while back had over forty names affixed to it. that’s a little more than a “small apologist clique”.
But you’ll see what you want to see. And you’ve already made it clear that you think I have nothing to offer the community, so why am I even bothering with you?
It’s a good question, I guess.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:47 pmgreat rovarian politics, buddy…
Proclaiming that others should STFU and that THEY are responsible for stifling!?!?!?!?!?!?!
That is pretty rich even by the standards set by a small group of cohorts here at TP!
July 11th, 2009 at 12:47 pmWhy say 3, 2, 1 and then say crickets chirping? Too nice a day here for fiddly f ucking around… Feel free to stay inside and whine…
July 11th, 2009 at 12:48 pmwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa…
Shorter doodle:
I come to an issues forum and not everyone agrees with me.
And when I flame and insult them for it, they have the audacity to talk back.
Call the WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABULENCE!
July 11th, 2009 at 12:49 pmMany will read this thread and the hypocrisy will be self-evident. Most will choose not to comment, but at least they will now clearly see it.
Thanks all!
July 11th, 2009 at 12:50 pm49.ralph the wonder locust Says:
AJ, the fact that you’ve decided we’re doing nothing to hold our elected officials accountable simply because we don’t piss and moan on a blog forum says a good bit about your ego. You have no idea how many letters or emails I’ve written to my elected officials, or how many times any of us have contacted our reps.
But you go ahead and fight the courageous fight of leaving comments on a blog..
Ralph, You have no idea how many letters or emails I’ve written to my elected officials, or how many times any of us have contacted our reps.
simply because we don’t piss and moan on a blog forum [unless it's about bush.] bushcrimes=bad Obamacrimes=shut up!
I’ve edited down the post to give you a hint. Anyone spot the irony yet?
July 11th, 2009 at 12:52 pmI will match each and every attempt to dishonestly stifle a dialog, at least as long as I am sitting at a computer with TP minimized on my taskbar.
But blame others for the fact that, while many others acknowledge the importance of different perspectives, you would rather we all goose-marched and whistled past the graveyard.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:52 pmralph the wonder locust Says:
Once again, hanshiro, you and AJ continually misrepresent the criticism directed at you.
it’s not “regarding legitimate, sourced criticism”. It’s regarding the unrelenting, repetitive nature of the criticism, on almost every thread regardless of the topic. It’s the obsessive nature of your spamming, not the criticism yourself.
This distinction has been pointed out dozens of times to you and AJ.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:47 p
BINGO.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:54 pmProgressive Block Needed on Clean Energy Legislation in Senate
Perhaps on a more postive note… You see, it’s all about what we DO and not what we PROCLAIM!
July 11th, 2009 at 12:54 pmWell, since this will be my last post for awhile I will attempt to make it a good little one…
I’m not going to get into a flame throwing party with any one, instead I’m going to join up with other Peace, Blessing and Justice type posters else where and a different party…
There can be no dialogue when there is 2 faction’s in the dem party, the wait and see, give a pass bunch and others who are working over time to make President Obama abide by the constitution and stop the war’s..Leaving out all the rest so I don’t use up to much of your band width..
Since I am clearly thought of as a troll may I close with a real old trolls closing..Toodles…..Blessings
July 11th, 2009 at 12:56 pmThe Democrats here (showing clearly that they are not progressives, but instead, are party loyalists) have become the thing they hated. Taking a page from the Ronald Reagan playbook, they refuse to speak ill of other Democrats – even when there is ample evidence that those Democrats are identical in their criminality and lack of moral/ethical principles to the Republicans they rail against.
I voted for Obama, and I’m sorry I did. I should have written in Kucinich.
From his economic policies to his support for government secrecy regarding some of the mot heinous crimes a government can commit, Barack W. Obama has proven himself to be identical to the President he replaced.
To ignore this fact is a stain on TP and the commenters who try to crush dissent through name-calling and invitations to take dissent elsewhere.
So, Zooey – didn’t you start your own blog? If I’m not mistaken, and you did, why do you keep commenting here?
July 11th, 2009 at 12:56 pmAnother Joe Says:
I will match each and every attempt to dishonestly stifle a dialog…
July 11th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
Proceed talking to yourself.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:57 pm92. Doodlebug Shayne Says: hanshiro, if posters here felt they needed you to keep them apprised on EVERY issue they’d come to your site wouldn’t they?
When they launch an ad hom attack at me for posting on the insanity of Obama’s ‘preventative detention’ policy, it would certainly make them look less asinine if they knew what the hell they were commenting on.
Characterizing Obama’s staggering proposed Constitutional violations as something of a minor information oversight only exposes the weakness of your contention; which dovetails perfectly with your practice of attacking the poster, not the substance of the post.
July 11th, 2009 at 12:58 pmMarcus Aurelius Says:
So, Zooey – didn’t you start your own blog? If I’m not mistaken, and you did, why do you keep commenting here?
July 11th, 2009 at 12:56 pm
I wasn’t aware that I was only allowed to comment on my own blog. My bad…
July 11th, 2009 at 12:59 pmJoe, it takes more than one to have a dialog. Your Monologue is Monotonous. Maybe you should migrate to a more progressive site that will agree with everything you say. But the problem with that plan is that you may run into someone who is more progressive than you and they’ll constantly post the same comments and accuse you of appeasing Dennis Kucinicech, or Karl Marx because they’re not progressive enough and you’re not calling for their blindfolded asses to be called in front of the tribunal.
July 11th, 2009 at 1:00 pmI’ve been reading this sight for a few days now, and while some of the comments are interesting, funny, even salient, there seems to be a clique at work here that is more concerned with excluding opposing viewpoints (even from liberals) that aren’t in lock-step with their own. So I registered on TP for one reason, and for one comment – people like the desperately “earnest” Another Joe (another what? Left-wing Joe the Plumber?) do not and will not see the big picture as per this administration and how politics are played in this country. The “teacher-call-on-me-I’m-ever-so-smart” crowd is exactly why the right’s claims of elitism have legs. You can teach without being preachy and overbearing – that’s called persuasion. What your handful of hardasses practices does nothing but alienate people who might otherwise come around to your point of view, if only you weren’t so pompous and self-impressed.
OK, I’m done, feel free to make fun of me now, because I won’t be coming back to this site in this lifetime.
July 11th, 2009 at 1:01 pmHmmm, I didn’t realize TP was “Another Joe’s” personal crusade blog.
It would be nice if some other people could get a word in edgewise, and if we didn’t have every board taken off topic and hijacked. This should be a place for reasonable conversation about the blog post topic.
July 11th, 2009 at 1:04 pmThis spill DID OCCUR DURING THE LAST ADMINISTRATION. On December 22 to be exact. The EPA promises to change the standards for hazardous waste before the end of the year to include these elements. The federal government has now listed 44 sites as hazardous to be watched. And we don’t know what other actions are being undertaken by Justice. It is these false flag attacks that make it so easy to ignore you.
July 11th, 2009 at 1:06 pmMarcus Aurelius Says:
To ignore this fact is a stain on TP and the commenters who try to crush dissent through name-calling and invitations to take dissent elsewhere.
When you follow this point with this comment:
So, Zooey – didn’t you start your own blog? If I’m not mistaken, and you did, why do you keep commenting here?
You kind of undercut your argument….
July 11th, 2009 at 1:06 pmIt must be his blog because he posted 34 of the first 100 comments on this thread.
July 11th, 2009 at 1:06 pmZooey:
You can comment anywhere you damn well please. You did invite someone else to start their own blog and to take their commentary there. I guess that advice doesn’t apply in your case. What’s good for the goose. . .
July 11th, 2009 at 1:10 pmTenacious-D, sorry you’re leaving so soon. What some die hard progressives forget is that President Obama got elected with the help of many independents. If he were to act progressive enough to keep those of us here happy 24/7 he’d be disenfranchising many of the people who voted for him. It seems like progressives have the egos of small children at times.
July 11th, 2009 at 1:13 pmBobwurst:
I asked a question pertinent to my comment.
July 11th, 2009 at 1:14 pmMarcus Aurelius Says:
Zooey:
You can comment anywhere you damn well please. You did invite someone else to start their own blog and to take their commentary there. I guess that advice doesn’t apply in your case. What’s good for the goose. . .
You miss the point completely. You’ll notice that Zooey is not commenting OT on every thread here and complaining that the threads are not to her liking. She’s also not asserting that others are not “real progressives” because they don’t agree with her and because they try to stay on subject.
When Zooey and others were unhappy with the direction TP had taken (at the time, mostly a complete lack of control over trolls), we started our own blog where we could handle that problem and post on what we thought was important. We didn’t sit here all day, day after day, whining about the content.
Big difference.
July 11th, 2009 at 1:15 pmDoodlebug Shayne:
Exactly.
July 11th, 2009 at 1:15 pmZooey doesn’t come here and make 30 off topic posts and complain when posters ARE discussing the topic that they’re not paying attention to what she feels is important. Capiche?
July 11th, 2009 at 1:16 pmLet’s take these at a fair clip, shall we?
94.ralph the wonder locust Says:
Once again, hanshiro, you and AJ continually misrepresent the criticism directed at you.
Obviously not since the same approach is utilized-attack the poster, not the post.
it’s not “regarding legitimate, sourced criticism”. It’s regarding the unrelenting, repetitive nature of the criticism, on almost every thread regardless of the topic. It’s the obsessive nature of your spamming, not the criticism yourself.
When bush was doing the exact same things, there was no call from you or others to stop, in fact there was outrage that it was continuing, and the nature of it continuing was reason enough to post updates and elaboration. I had no idea that I required your permission to post anything here, Ralph, nor of your title as ersatz blog sheriff.
This distinction has been pointed out dozens of times to you and AJ.
Only via the same policy: attack the poster, not the post.
When you distort the valid criticisms against you like this, it makes you sound like a troll.
They are not ‘valid criticisms,’ but ad hom attacks. I posted no differently when bush was pulling this crap, but you object when it’s Obama. A double standard.
Besides, it’s kind of ridiculous for three primary critics to demean dozens of other regulars as a “small apologist clique”. I believe The List that was circulating to get AJ to STFU a while back had over forty names affixed to it. that’s a little more than a “small apologist clique”.
Representing yourself (selves) as some sort of authoritative majority has been dispelled by both post and recommends. Bullying on a blog is nothing new.
But you’ll see what you want to see. And you’ve already made it clear that you think I have nothing to offer the community, so why am I even bothering with you? It’s a good question, I guess.
I have made it clear you have nothing to offer me. The community can make up its’ own mind. I don’t need to start some list of posters, ala petulant middle school antics, to make up anyone else’s mind. The strength of the posts and their sources and validity will do the talking.
July 11th, 2009 at 1:19 pmMarcus Aurelius Says:
July 11th, 2009 at 1:10 pm
A group of us were not happy with TP, so we started the Zoo. I’m suggesting that the people who are clogging every single thread with off topic news they deem more important (and they may be right, but this is not their blog) might be happier starting a blog of their own. That does not preclude them from commenting anywhere else, nor have I made any such demand.
I apologize for my previous snarky comment. We’ve been friends for a long time, and it was uncalled for.
July 11th, 2009 at 1:20 pmI don’t understand the whole Twitter thing. If I understand it correctly, you have a very limited amount of space to say practically nothing. It fits Rove and Palin’s intellect, but shouldn’t thinking people focus on something more substantive than high-tech jingoism? I pray that Twittering, which seems to be by and for twits, is just another mood ring …
July 11th, 2009 at 1:22 pmI see Another Joe hasn’t bothered to comment on the fact that he blamed President Obama for the spill that happened in 2008. Although if it had the regulations and oversight necessary to change conditions that led up to this problem are not likely to happen overnight. If Senator McCain had been elected he would be working on getting nuclear plants built and nuclear waste would be stockpiled on location until there was a waste water disaster that make this coal sludge spill seem unimportant. Priorities.
July 11th, 2009 at 1:24 pmThe Moderate Squad, Twittering is for Twits.
July 11th, 2009 at 1:25 pmAnother Joe, about the coal sludge spill?
July 11th, 2009 at 1:26 pmThat’s the way it looks to me Doodlebug Shayne, but I have a history of resisting technology, so I might be missing something. I still have a ton of cassette tapes and a VCR, for God’s sake…
July 11th, 2009 at 1:28 pm121.Zooey Says: A group of us were not happy with TP, so we started the Zoo. I’m suggesting that the people who are clogging every single thread with off topic news they deem more important (and they may be right, but this is not their blog) might be happier starting a blog of their own.
I had no idea that I required your permission to post anything here, Zooey, nor of your title as ersatz blog sheriff.
July 11th, 2009 at 1:29 pmhanshiro the antlion Says:
I had no idea that I required your permission to post anything here, Zooey, nor of your title as ersatz blog sheriff.
July 11th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
Maybe you can do me the honor of pointing out where I demand that you ask my permission to post comments? Thanks.
July 11th, 2009 at 1:31 pmThe Moderate Squad Says:
While I agree that twittering seems to be a fad (and a rather self-centered egotistical one at that), I have to say that it’s been very useful to the Iranian protesters who have gotten information to the outside world through twittering and the internets. So far, that seems to be the only good use for it, IMHO.
July 11th, 2009 at 1:35 pmPoint taken Jane, I forgot about that…
July 11th, 2009 at 1:35 pmRove can’t be saying that stuff with a straight face.
There were few feeble attempts at oversight during the Bush/Rove years. When Amb. Wilson attempted oversight on Bush’s WMD claims for war against Iraq Rove’s answer was to compromise America’s top expert on Iran’s nuclear ambitions. We are still paying a steep price for that criminal endeavor.
Oh, and you can be sure that Rove was up to his eyebrows in the domestic spying scandal that has recently gotten new life. With his track record it just boggles my mind on why anybody even listens to a thing Rove has to say. It is nothing more than irritating background noise.
July 11th, 2009 at 1:36 pmI guess we’re supposed to do this every time AJ messes up.
Wikipedia
July 11th, 2009 at 1:37 pm
128.Zooey Says: Maybe you can do me the honor of pointing out where I demand that you ask my permission to post comments? Thanks.
Whining criticism that attacks the poster, not the post:
You are, in no uncertain terms, telling posters they are unwelcome based on your preferences. Stop being so disingenuous.
July 11th, 2009 at 1:43 pmI’m a progressive and occasional commenter. I have also been a Democrat for a long, long, long time– which hasn’t been easy to do in some of the places that I have lived. I appreciate information, but I don’t like anyone on the right or the left telling me what I should or should not care about or be concerned about.
I am just as concerned as many of the other commenters about many of the same things that you are, I call my congressman and my Senators (although they are both entrenched Repubs) and am active in my local precinct.
But when one harps on the the same note over and over again, it gets old. Like an old record needle getting stuck in a groove. Or a skipping CD.
I quit reading your comments. Skip right over them. (Except for today — I have read the whole flame war.) Yep, I’ve seen you on other sites as well, your writing style gives you away. I get it. You want justice. You want Bush to be held accountable and you don’t want Obama to continue down the same path. I don’t think any progressive here wants anything different either. I applaud your passion.
And it’s not that you don’t make good points. You do. But I can’t get through them anymore because of the tone of your comments. And occasionally, I just like to poke a little fun at the wingnuts instead of being “oh so serious” all of the time. That chip on your shoulder must get pretty heavy at times.
If you took the time to maybe put a little humor into your posts, perhaps I would enjoy reading your comments. Despite the problems that we have in this country, it is still a great country. I love my country and the fact that I have this forum available to make whatever comments I want to make. But just like the street preachers that hang around Hollywood Blvd. or many other public places/events, I’m just not that into you.
Peace.
July 11th, 2009 at 1:50 pmcan someone explain to me how criticizing repetitive OT posts is an “ad hom” attack?
As I understand it, ad hominem refers to attacking the the other personally while ignoring the nature and content of the argument.
It seems to me that in pointing out the nature of a series of obsessive comments is hardly ignoring the argument itself. Sure, hanshiro and AJ would like us to focus on each and every point they bring up, but they are blind to the effect their commenting habits have on others, even though that effect has been brought to their attention dozens of times, in several different ways.
Although, to be truthful, it can’t be said that they ignore our criticisms; they simply bundle them up as “fake progressive apologist” crap and toss them back over the fence. And then they complain about people “shutting down dialogue”.
Go figure.
July 11th, 2009 at 1:52 pmhanshiro the antlion Says:
You are, in no uncertain terms, telling posters they are unwelcome based on your preferences. Stop being so disingenuous.
July 11th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
Wrong. I am inviting those of you who are unhappy with TP to find an alternative. That way, if you have a pertinent post, you can post a link to your brilliance on many different blogs and many people will swarm to your blog in order to read your wisdom. No one has a problem with on topic blog-whoring.
BTW, thanks for handing me all your power. I see my “preferences” are a powerful influence in your life.
July 11th, 2009 at 1:55 pm**eyes rolling**
No, she is telling you that you are making yourself unwelcome based on the expressed preferences of dozens of regulars — the “apologist clique” as you like to refer to us.
To make the claim that it is simply Zooey’s preference is what is disingenuous. I don’t expect you to see it, though.
July 11th, 2009 at 1:55 pmSomething must be happening to my brain today. When I ready “skirt” “oversight” and “transparency”, I thought it was Rove was worried about his overweight skirt being transparent.
Too much speedreading.
July 11th, 2009 at 1:56 pmAnother Joe gets busted and he leaves the posting to hanshiro. I still think they’re all the same poster.
July 11th, 2009 at 1:59 pmWow I have read many of the posts here today and it has been quite interesting. It seems there is a definate split between those still loyal to Obama and those are are now seeing cracks in what Obama projected himself to be. I think Marcus Aurelius summed it up best in an earlier post when he said that some of the Dems and progressives have become blind loyalists which was the very thing they grew to hate under Bush.
July 11th, 2009 at 2:00 pmFor folks that come to TP for “a forum that advances progressive ideas and policies” (from http://thinkprogress.org/about/ – hat tip, katy),
Empowering A Progressive Movement-A Web-Based Tool For Bottom-Up Self-Organizing
As always, people that come her for other purposes or to further different agendas are free to keep scrollin’ on by.
July 11th, 2009 at 2:01 pmdoodle – look at all the recommends – you are not actually speaking for anyone but your own little clique
July 11th, 2009 at 2:02 pmAnother Joe, the recommends, and the prevailing attitude, seems to be on DShayne’s side, so maybe you should get an abacus. And you still haven’t responded to his point about the coal disaster…
July 11th, 2009 at 2:04 pmCP – spot on, but I would add, it is the MERE MENTIONING of concerns that some use to launch a flame-war. If they just posted responses based on issues, we would not have a thread of 137+ comments where most seem to proclaim the one above is a troll!
Because the sheer brashness and hypocracy of the crowd that claims: DIALOG = SILENCING and SHOUTING DOWN AND LIMITING DIALOG = FREEDOM crowd, some of us, from time to time, do allow these folks to let their ignorance and intolerance shine.
I am not “holier than thou”, but I will challenge anyone that flames others that work for progressive issues as not having a perspective “worthy enough” to have a voice in the dialog.
July 11th, 2009 at 2:06 pmAnother Joe, did you read post 134 by LibertyLover that has 4 recommends?
July 11th, 2009 at 2:07 pm135.ralph the wonder locust Says: can someone explain to me how criticizing repetitive OT posts is an “ad hom” attack?
I’ll type slower for you, Ralph, since you’re determined to misrepresent what I said. You don’t address the post, you attack the poster.
Posting to open up dialogue or bring news to people’s attention is the idea. Having a faction of Obama supporters tell you it’s “unproductive” or “whining” to post and be outraged that the ‘change’ you were promised is based on bullsh¡t puts a dent in the claim of ‘progressive.’ Further, it strains TP’s credibility when Obama is doing exactly what bush did, but the similar threads of Constitutional violations are curiously absent in favor of ‘Rove twittering.’
As I said, my posting style has changed little since I was posting on bush, but suddenly, it’s ‘repetitive’ and ‘OT’ when it’s addressing Obama, despite the fact that it’s not changed, nor has OT been a problem during the bush administration.
Double standard.
July 11th, 2009 at 2:08 pmCP Says:
Wow I have read many of the posts here today and it has been quite interesting. It seems there is a definate split between those still loyal to Obama and those are are now seeing cracks in what Obama projected himself to be.
In what Obama project himself to be, or what we all projected onto him? Big difference. I had no illusions that Obama would be the “savior.”
But I’ve been around a long time and have seen the political world before and after Reagan. He’s only one man, the rest of it is up to us to push him in the right direction.
July 11th, 2009 at 2:08 pmThere are posts here with more – you remind me of the guy that walks in front of the marching band, sweeping up the crap from the horses in the flag line, and telling himself he is leading the whole show.
July 11th, 2009 at 2:08 pmAs opposed to the wealth of double-digit recommends your posts receive?
Oh that’s right — it’s just you and hanshiro.
It’s really funny how AJ continues to call those calling him on his shit a ‘little clique” when the only ones agreeing with him are the same ones as always — hanshiro and stateofthedivision.
How’s that wealth of crowd support going for ya, AJ? You should have a clique so large.
July 11th, 2009 at 2:09 pmLiberty – if I understand you, the point is important. Regardless of what obama and dem leadership does, we should be able to talk about it.
Rational people won’t see him as our “savior”, but understand that if we are silent, we have no voice.
If the voices don’t all agree – it is much less important than at least they had an opportunity to be heard.
To be successful, this administration does need the feedback from his base that some here would flame or ban.
July 11th, 2009 at 2:10 pm137. ralph the wonder locust Says: No, she is telling you that you are making yourself unwelcome based on the expressed preferences of dozens of regulars — the “apologist clique” as you like to refer to us.
July 11th, 2009 at 2:10 pmBoohoo. Previous recommends would appear to make you a liar, Ralph.
I don’t believe anybody here is a “blind Obama loyalist”. Most of us didn’t even support him in the primaries we were supporters of somebody more progressive like Dennis Kucinich or John Edwards. That is just propaganda spread by our uber progressive trolls in the fashion that Karl Rove himself would be proud of.
July 11th, 2009 at 2:12 pmhanshiro the antlion – no surprise, rounding of wagons and throwing crap from behind the horses is a strategy of losers.
July 11th, 2009 at 2:12 pmAnd KKKarl and the Bush Administration avoided oversight by ELIMINATING every local or federal department that performed oversight and effectively getting rid of anyone (i.e.Don Siegelman) who might not agree with them and put up resistence to or blow the whistle on their unlawful schemes. Good job, KKKarl.
July 11th, 2009 at 2:13 pm136.Zooey Says: Wrong. I am inviting those of you who are unhappy with TP to find an alternative.
Your own ‘alternative’ apparently isn’t sufficient. You need to come here and try to dictate whose opinions are valid or welcome.
So now you have two places where you aren’t listened to…
July 11th, 2009 at 2:13 pmDoodlebug Shayne
JUST TOO FULL OF YOURSELF!
You would flame and ban THE EXACT SAME STATEMENTS AND POINTS KUCINICH CURRENTLY MAKES when someone else posts them here!!!!!!
I don’t feed many trolls, but when they repeatedly flash their anus, revealing a deeper and deeper look into their colons with each lowering of their drawers, it’s kind of hard to admit.
Gotcha, buddy….
KUCINICH SAYS IT = GOOD
POST IT AT TP = BAD
How can you argue with that “logic”!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
July 11th, 2009 at 2:15 pmAnother Joe, not answering the questions about your erroneous postings would seem to be more the mark of a loser. And scroll up to 109 – that guy has a lot of recommends and seems to have pegged you perfectly.
July 11th, 2009 at 2:16 pmYeah, it was me – blush
July 11th, 2009 at 2:17 pmhanshiro the antlion Says:
So now you have two places where you aren’t listened to…
July 11th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
As soon as you have a blog which has received over a million views (not including any of our own views), I’ll give your comment some weight.
July 11th, 2009 at 2:17 pm149.ralph the wonder locust Says: As opposed to the wealth of double-digit recommends your posts receive? Oh that’s right — it’s just you and hanshiro.
Heavens, you might be pushed into another middle-school antic like starting another ‘gang-up’ list against posters you don’t agree with. Tres progressive…
July 11th, 2009 at 2:17 pm158.Zooey Says: As soon as you have a blog which has received over a million views (not including any of our own views), I’ll give your comment some weight.
Lots of people watch “American Idol,” too. That doesn’t make them geniuses.
July 11th, 2009 at 2:18 pmJust my opinion but Idon’t believe hanshiro and AJ are progressives at all. They’re too tenacious. Witch1 IS A TRUE PROGRESSIVE and speaks from her heart. I think the RNC sends these fake progressive to so discontent among Democrats. We all blame President Obama for those issues he is failing to rectify. But these guys misrepresent the facts to make their point. There is no profit to an actual progressive to misconstrue facts.
July 11th, 2009 at 2:18 pmWow, I’m still trying to catch up. And with all this going on I’m not sure of my comment, but per usual I’ve got to put my two cents in.
I voted for Obama and have been a lifelong dem. I don’t like the fact there aren’t any prosecutions.
However, if by the time the next election comes up his admin. has passed health care (single payer or public option) or has begun prosecutions in the Bush Crime Regime.
Then I’ll happily vote for him again.
Off topic about Rove though.
July 11th, 2009 at 2:18 pmThanks for typing slower. It helps.
Um, no, I didn’t address the poster until it became clear that the poster had no intention of paying any attention to the critique.
The critique was (once again — should I type slower so you’ll get it this time?) that your posts, while generally containing good information, become so repetitive and predictable as to be unpalatable for most of us.
That is a comment on the posts themselves, not an irrelevant personal attack. I can see why you’d have a difficult time telling the difference, because you can’t even tell the difference between our problems with you and AJ, and our unwillingness to follow your anti-Obama charge. You think they’re one and the same, but they’re not.
An ad hominem attack would be to claim that you’re a degenerate reprobate, and thus any argument you make should be ignored.
That would be fine. It happens here on most threads every day. But what you and AJ do is far beyond that innocuous-sounding description, and lots of people have made this point, over and over. But you still insist that any disagreement with you is “apologist” crap and directed at you personally. Then you go on to disparage those who you see as “stifling disagreement”.
It’s a winning combination, I’ll say that.
July 11th, 2009 at 2:19 pmso doodle – did you chase KUCINICH away from here too for posting the comments that you supported him for in the primary?
July 11th, 2009 at 2:19 pm162.Doodlebug Shayne Says: Just my opinion but Idon’t believe hanshiro and AJ are progressives at all. They’re too tenacious.
Translation: I can’t deny their posts, so I’ll lapse into ad hom.
Attack the poster, not the post…
July 11th, 2009 at 2:19 pmLOL, ralphie wiggems, “I know you are, but what am I? I know you are, but what am I? I know you are, but what am I? I know you are, but what am I? I know you are, but what am I? I know you are, but what am I? I know you are, but what am I? I know you are, but what am I? I know you are, but what am I? I know you are, but what am I? I know you are, but what am I? I know you are, but what am I? I know you are, but what am I? I know you are, but what am I? I know you are, but what am I? I know you are, but what am I? I know you are, but what am I? I know you are, but what am I? I know you are, but what am I? I know you are, but what am I? I know you are, but what am I? I know you are, but what am I? I know you are, but what am I? I know you are, but what am I?”
July 11th, 2009 at 2:21 pmhanshiro the antlion – do you think anyone objective reader that scrolls through this thread will see how plainly is was this moron that started the “holier than thou” crap here.
And now wants to proclaim who is “with us and who is against us”.
I know they don’t get it – but this is just too much fun to walk away!
July 11th, 2009 at 2:22 pmBALD FACE LIAR AND A POMPOUS ASS.
July 11th, 2009 at 2:22 pmThat there’s funny I don’t care who ya are!
Glad you came back.
July 11th, 2009 at 2:24 pm164.ralph the wonder locust Says: The critique was (once again — should I type slower so you’ll get it this time?) that your posts, while generally containing good information, become so repetitive and predictable as to be unpalatable for most of us.
Who the fcuk are you? Since when do you speak for everyone else?
Oh, and since when did I need your approval, permission, or existence to post and dialogue on Obama’s bushlike behavior?
You don’t like it, scroll past. You won’t be missed.
July 11th, 2009 at 2:24 pmjimmcdosh – for the record, I have to state that criticizing a new president for meeting with foreign leaders during a period in the summer when his presence in the white house would probably not matter is pretty lame.
Especially when the PREVIOUS pResident took more vacation days than any in US history – snortin’ coke and binge drinkin’ on a faux “ranch.”
But I will respect your right to post it.
July 11th, 2009 at 2:25 pmYou obviously missed this little bit of context: I was responding to a silly post by AJ, in which he used the “recommend” count to demonstrate her lack of influence among people here.
Perhaps I should have made my point more prosaically: using the same yardstick by which AJ measures Zooey’s isolation does not reflect well on AJ’s own level of influence.
Is that a little clearer for you?
careful, though, you don’t want to go “ad hominem” do ya? That would be “tres progressive”, no?
July 11th, 2009 at 2:25 pmI don’t answer some questions because:
1. not your monkey
2. scroll by a certain set of monikers anyhow
You are welcome to do the same.
July 11th, 2009 at 2:26 pmTenacious-D Says:
Yeah, it was me – blush
July 11th, 2009 at 2:17 pm
I like your style. :D
July 11th, 2009 at 2:27 pmI was a John Edwards supporter but he had dropped out before they got to my state. While I preferred Kucinich I don’t believe he was electable because of all the moderates needed to win the general election. Frankly I’d have voted for Ralph Nadar before John McCain and would have done anything to keep him and Palin from the office. And since it’s likely that the next Republican will be Romney, Palin or Jeb Bush I’m pretty sure I’ll be supporting President Obama. I’m not the liar around here.
July 11th, 2009 at 2:27 pmhanshiro the antlion Says:
Lots of people watch “American Idol,” too. That doesn’t make them geniuses.
July 11th, 2009 at 2:18 pm
Strawman. *sigh*
What’s the name of your blog? I’d love to give you your first view.
**crickets chirping**
July 11th, 2009 at 2:29 pmIt seems “bushlike” when you’re fed talking points by the RNC instead of researching facts by yourselves. You’re just like Watchdog, you just repeat what your told.
July 11th, 2009 at 2:30 pm174.ralph the wonder locust Says:
You obviously missed this little bit of context: I was responding to a silly post by AJ, in which he used the “recommend” count to demonstrate her lack of influence among people here.
Oh. Why, that makes your little list antic appear so much more mature and dialogue-producing; since you attacked the poster, not the post.
July 11th, 2009 at 2:30 pmAll I know is you guys sure work hard to block any criticism of Karl Rove. Are you typing from under his desk?
July 11th, 2009 at 2:31 pmZooey, remember stateofthedivision has three blogs. I’m sure that keeps all three of HIM quite busy.
July 11th, 2009 at 2:31 pm178.Zooey Says: What’s the name of your blog? I’d love to give you your first view.
I don’t need a blog for validation, honey bunny. Some do, tho…
July 11th, 2009 at 2:31 pmjimmcdosh, can you take your self promotion somewhere else?
July 11th, 2009 at 2:33 pmMaybe hanshiro/AJ/state is really Jeff Gannon.
July 11th, 2009 at 2:33 pmUm… I think you know who the fcuk I am, at least as far as my contributions to this community go, and I think you know that in the comment you quoted, I was speaking for myself, but yes, including the people who have repeatedly echoed my own criticisms of your antics.
This is a favorite line of attack for you, isn’t it? You used it on Zooey earlier, I think. At least you’re into recycling.
What made you think I ever imagined I’d be missed? Please don’t project your own ego onto me, okay? Do me that favor.
AsI said at the start of this melee, I know that all I’m doing is posting comments on a blog. It’s not that big a deal. If what I write affects someone, great. If not, oh well.
July 11th, 2009 at 2:33 pmReal progressive calling a female poster “honey bunny”. See I knew you weren’t a real progressive you condescending pr#ck.
July 11th, 2009 at 2:34 pmUsing the standards by which you’ve judged me, you are every bit as guilty of “ad hominem” as I am.
I somehow doubt that you’re willing to apply the same standards universally, however.
July 11th, 2009 at 2:35 pmYet you don’t scroll by posts by the same person when you can keep the flame going? And if you were my monkey, you’d be involved in medical experiments by now. That way your life might have some meaning…
July 11th, 2009 at 2:36 pmLooks like the flame war chased everyone else away! And now we banter in cyber-silence!!!!!!!!!!!!!
All because some expressed concerns that accountability should be a 2 way street.
But the funny thing is, a small clique here seems to see this as a “victory”!
July 11th, 2009 at 2:39 pmAnother Joe Says:
Liberty – if I understand you, the point is important. Regardless of what obama and dem leadership does, we should be able to talk about it.Rational people won’t see him as our “savior”, but understand that if we are silent, we have no voice.If the voices don’t all agree – it is much less important than at least they had an opportunity to be heard.To be successful, this administration does need the feedback from his base that some here would flame or ban.
Sure, hon, we the people need to push him in the right direction, but do you really think that Obama and his admin are reading TP? Pushing Obama in the right direction might be best done by calling your congressperson, not preaching to the choir. I’ll bet you dollars to donuts that those you think would flame or ban you actually agree with you.
This is/was a post/thread about Karl Rove. Lot’s of your early posts are OT. And this thread is no longer about his twiteriffic stupidity.
I think that “Think Fast” is the Open Comment thread. Would that not be a better forum for your comments? Just asking.
July 11th, 2009 at 2:39 pmOh, and man, you gotta lighten up. It’s a joy to be alive!
To anyone reading this thread down to this point – please count the number of different handles you see about half way down!
July 11th, 2009 at 2:40 pmAnd an even smaller clique supports you(s), Another Joe the Plumber. You are a majority of one. A few more pounds and an Oxy habit and you be Rush….
July 11th, 2009 at 2:42 pmLibertyLover
We all know that obama and the leadership doesn’t stop by and read this crap.
But that is all the more reason that a diversity of opinion should be welcomed and not flamed.
We really aren’t that important, its what we do AFTER WE SIGN OUT that is important.
Just like it is the ACTION and not the RHETORIC that brings about progressive change and ideals.
(note: please see ABOUT US link before you post that TP is not about that type of dialog – tip of the hat to katy)
July 11th, 2009 at 2:43 pmCounting the different handles and then looking at the balance of recommends says otherwise, moderate squad.
But I am happy to disagree with you.
July 11th, 2009 at 2:43 pmTenacious-D, I had to laugh when I scrolled up to 109 – too funny!
July 11th, 2009 at 2:44 pmWhy is Contempt of Congress Rove not arrested? These criminals amaze me how they are out there still trying to repair their nonsense party of NO.
And guess what? I heard some of the younger generation today upset that Obama has not fixed the economy for them…. apparently without a thought it took years to get here and Obama has only been in office 5 months.
Obama needs to get out there and explain that only 10% of the stimulus money has been released… keep in touch to counter these criminals still allowed to be free.
July 11th, 2009 at 2:46 pm186. ralph the wonder locust Says: Um… I think you know who the fcuk I am, at least as far as my contributions to this community go, and I think you know that in the comment you quoted, I was speaking for myself, but yes, including the people who have repeatedly echoed my own criticisms of your antics.
No, I don’t know who the fcuk you think you are. Your ‘contributions’ to this community seem to be limited to attacking those with valid, yet opposing viewpoints.
Your ‘contributions’ to this community seem to be an ardent wish to preserve the status quo when it comes to justifiable criticism of Obama.
Your ‘contributions’ to this community seem to be to play online blog sheriff and attack the poster, not the post while rallying cohorts to play high-school exclusion games and be a divisive element.
Your ‘contributions’ to this community appear to require citing some faux majority (the domain of cowards) to shore up your personal peccadilloes and to lend it an air of authority instead of speaking for yourself and having the confidence of your position rather than pretend you speak for a whole group.
July 11th, 2009 at 2:46 pmI would happily never comment on another’s viewpoints, other than to post my own. I usually don’t until a small subset of posters start attacking.
But when a small clique takes it on themselves to flame and bait others that support the same larger goals, I will be as snarky and responsive as my sense of humor allows that day.
And when I am done, I will sign off and none of this matters. We did not change a thing, but we do appear to have driven some away from the site, perhaps forever.
July 11th, 2009 at 2:49 pm187. Doodlebug Shayne Says: Real progressive calling a female poster “honey bunny”. See I knew you weren’t a real progressive you condescending pr#ck.
I’ve used that honorific for both sexes, stinkbug. Don’t you ever get tired of being stupid?
July 11th, 2009 at 2:49 pmPeace to all!
July 11th, 2009 at 2:49 pmdamn – hanshiro the antlion
There’s that “holier than thou” crap that he is so quick to dump on others.
My favorite from the week is from another commenter that believed it was “progressive” to slander all African Americans as “homophobit” because the written life experience of one African American said it was so!!!!!!!!!
July 11th, 2009 at 2:51 pm199.Another Joe Says: I would happily never comment on another’s viewpoints, other than to post my own. I usually don’t until a small subset of posters start attacking. But when a small clique takes it on themselves to flame and bait others that support the same larger goals, I will be as snarky and responsive as my sense of humor allows that day.
Ralph’s strategy is to call ‘hypocrite’ by proclaiming, “But he hit me back first…”
July 11th, 2009 at 2:53 pmAnother Joe Says:
I didn’t expect him to be able to correct all the ills that were already in place along with all the financial woes of the world in the fist six months either. Good thing we elected him for four years. Hopefully he will be able to get all of his appointments in place to help him soon. Cheers.
July 11th, 2009 at 2:54 pmJeffboste – Damn, 100 percent said YES! I did not take the poll.
Obama is trying to skirt ‘oversight’ & ‘transparency’ by appointing czars?
No, he is doing it by threatening to veto reform of the CIA, by hiding information about torture, and, increasingly it appears that he is not being direct about doing something about the illegal spying…
He doesn’t need czars to do it…
July 11th, 2009 at 2:55 pmkasinca – I did not criticize anthing he was yet to address…
but stonewalling us repeatedly on the torture, not intervening during the largest environmental disaster in US history, continuing the cheney/chimpy secrecy, and issuing signing statements even though he flatly stated he would not during the campaign…
those things I have opinions on…
July 11th, 2009 at 2:58 pmCzaz? Schaarr. The Goofy Obstructionist Partisans are always carrying around a newspaper full of dead red herrings. Anything to distract the American people from GOP crimes, 8 years of torture, treason and tyranny, Republican lies, $96,000 paid by Ensign’s mommy and daddy to shut his msrried girlfriend up…
O/T: Faux Noise gleefully quoted Mrs. SP (R – Moose) as saying that Federal spending to help the American people out of the Bush recession was “immoral.” Jest call me Herbert Hoover’s great-grand-daughter.
Check out the Book Title Contest on Mudflats (in Alaska) Blog, the winner: Sarah Palin Vain and Simple.
To me, Palin = Bush-in-a-skirt.
July 11th, 2009 at 3:00 pmGotta love TP. Warts and all. It’s part politics, part sociology experiment.
July 11th, 2009 at 3:01 pm(note: please see ABOUT US link before you post that TP is not about that type of dialog – tip of the hat to katy)
First of all, I don’t post. I comment. The post is at the top of the thread.
And second, I’m going back to lurking with only the occasional comment. What you engage in is not dialog. It’s a monolog and monotonous.
And I’ve been coming here a long time; I would actually welcome more dialog without being lectured to.
Peace
July 11th, 2009 at 3:06 pmhanshiro the antlion Says:
I don’t need a blog for validation, honey bunny. Some do, tho…
July 11th, 2009 at 2:31 pm
How very “progressive.”
Dismissed.
July 11th, 2009 at 3:06 pmBeing “lectured” at is in the eyes of the beholder. Perhaps when you are given a set of ideas that you are free to scroll past and disagree with, you perceive that as a “lecture”.
But that’s just the way you choose to view it, the was actually no magical power in the string of text.
Did you have bad experiences in school (maybe you still are in school)?
Eventually, folks realize that they are who controls what ideas they let into their heads. Some of us choose to fight the flame wars by a small clique because we know we can and that they really don’t stand for anything that matters.
Sorry if you feel caught up in that mess – just another version of “collateral damage?”
I hope you get over it.
July 11th, 2009 at 3:10 pmAnother joe, 53 comments on 211 count post?
July 11th, 2009 at 3:10 pmAre you in Antarctica with boatload of time on your hands?
You are why I lurk. I do not engage in bickering.
You are bickering.
Sorry, Amanda. My part in trashing this post is over.
July 11th, 2009 at 3:10 pmMake that 54 out of 214
July 11th, 2009 at 3:11 pmdoubt is zooey, but you did leave a stench that will hang here for a long time.
PEACE!
July 11th, 2009 at 3:12 pmyup – I’m multi-tasking and able to take the regular flamers to task!
Why don’t you count how many time the same clique members that “police” these threads post?
Are the numbers too high? Will your head explode?
July 11th, 2009 at 3:13 pm…(maybe you still are in school)?
I left formal education and authoritarianism a long time ago, although I still consider myself a student of life.
And you?
Got things to do, people to see and places to go this fine Saturday.. I’ll leave this to the rest of you.
July 11th, 2009 at 3:19 pmOh, and as far as Ralph’s whining about repetition and OT posting, let’s look at the thread titles at TP for the past coupla days:
So where exactly is the thread warning us about Obama’s ongoing reluctance to prosecute bush? About his blocking investigations? About his continuing to perpetuate bush policies regarding detainees? About Obama’s failed promises on DOMA and DADT?
In other words, where would those pressing issues not be OT since TP has a pronounced reluctance to putting up threads about them, notwithstanding the progressive view that perpetrated by dem or republican, it is just as wrong?
And a damn sight more pressing than Palin’s tweets!
July 11th, 2009 at 3:21 pmI wasn’t going to get involved in today’s argument, which is now apparently the sole topic of this Rove thread, but after this, I have to comment:
hanshiro the antlion Says:
186. ralph the wonder locust Says: Um… I think you know who the fcuk I am, at least as far as my contributions to this community go, and I think you know that in the comment you quoted, I was speaking for myself, but yes, including the people who have repeatedly echoed my own criticisms of your antics.
No, I don’t know who the fcuk you think you are. Your ‘contributions’ to this community seem to be limited to attacking those with valid, yet opposing viewpoints.
Your ‘contributions’ to this community seem to be an ardent wish to preserve the status quo when it comes to justifiable criticism of Obama.
Your ‘contributions’ to this community seem to be to play online blog sheriff and attack the poster, not the post while rallying cohorts to play high-school exclusion games and be a divisive element.
Your ‘contributions’ to this community appear to require citing some faux majority (the domain of cowards) to shore up your personal peccadilloes and to lend it an air of authority instead of speaking for yourself and having the confidence of your position rather than pretend you speak for a whole group.
July 11th, 2009 at 2:46 pm
Hanshiro, apparently you are completely and deliberately ignoring all of ralph’s comments on hundreds, if not thousands, of other threads here over several years. You are also completely ignoring the comments of many other posters (including me) over the past several weeks/months, wherein posters have agreed with your points about the deficiencies of the Obama administration, but find your (and Joe’s) constant harping on every thread more off-putting than welcoming of discussion. The fact that this has now dissolved into the flame wars we see today, amongst people who basically agree with each other when it comes down to it, is truly pathetic.
Both sides of today’s argument bear some responsibility for this divisiveness, and I sincerely urge people to abandon the prevailing “you’re either with us or against us” Bushian attitude.
But then again, I’m just a Zoo Critter, so I guess that my opinion doesn’t really count. ;)
July 11th, 2009 at 3:24 pmLibertyLover,
I enjoyed your posting. Humor and a good wit are always in good taste.
I have been following the thread today and what I see is healthy and productive. Frank discussion and dialog are always needed. The Progressive movement is one of many constituents that President Obama has at the table. The transition of Democrats from the minority to the majority party has added to the strain of policy formulation. The appearance of disharmony or even betrayal is understandable. The Republicans are very much aware of this and are playing it hard, politics.
I truly believe that the previous administration was criminally inept at governance (this could turn out to be historic in its own right). The Obama Administration has to clean up and start at the same time. There are serious issues that require immediate attention, some issues that have to but on hold and some that will just be dropped. Pragmatism appears to be the rule of the day.
I won’t and don’t assume that Obama is an extension of Cheney/Bush, and will take issue with that.
I don’t expect Obama to put a dinner on the table while he’s still cleaning the shyt off the floor.
Obama has to prioritize, and it is well to remember this point. The Progressive issues are legitimate and belong at the table. How the issues are addressed, and when issues are addressed is the prerogative of Obama. This is what he was elected to do. I believe Obama has earned our respect (America’s present financial crisis, the dysfunctional government he was handed and only 7 months into his presidency) and the benefit of the doubt.
It does the President a great service to remind him of those issues on the table. In addressing this President, a little respect would go along way.
There is a vast difference between Obama and Bush, and we would do well to remember this point.
definitely pontificating, flight
July 11th, 2009 at 3:26 pmOK last one. Promise.
Another Joe Says:
And when I am done, I will sign off and none of this matters. We did not change a thing, but we do appear to have driven some away from the site, perhaps forever.
Gotta wonder sometimes if that isn’t your actual intent.
July 11th, 2009 at 3:26 pm220. Jane E. Schneider Says: Hanshiro, apparently you are completely and deliberately ignoring all of ralph’s comments on hundreds, if not thousands, of other threads here over several years.
No, I am not, nor does that give him validation to smear, mischaracterize and lie.
You are also completely ignoring the comments of many other posters (including me) over the past several weeks/months, wherein posters have agreed with your points about the deficiencies of the Obama administration, but find your (and Joe’s) constant harping on every thread more off-putting than welcoming of discussion.
There are still others who agree with the urgency and sources and continue to agree over the posted information. You are discounting them. I also, unless it’s for clarification, do not post the same article twice. Get off the repetition canard.
If others post things I’ve posted, that’s a consequence of a blog with visitors, however, not once have I ever been attacked for anything I posted about bush. Funny how with Obama, doing the exact same things bush is doing, suddenly it’s “repetition.”
I find that disingenuous.
If you don’t like a post I put up, scroll right past, but this one-sided bullsh¡t attack on dissenters is every bit as obvious as any red-state behavior. The collective is always the last to clue in.
July 11th, 2009 at 3:33 pmI am not the one that started the flame wars, I have the mental ability and time (between other tasks today) to keep it up as long as a dwindling clique of small-minded folks chooses.
Funny how some proclaim themselves as “lovers of liberty” but will slam another for exercising it.
You proclaimed you are “done”, I doubt it. For the record, I will proclaim I am NOT done (but I wouldn’t waste my time with certain identities either which you are all free to do as well).
Starting flame wars is about limiting the liberties of sharing ideas here, not about creating a dialog.
July 11th, 2009 at 3:56 pm“If you don’t like a post I put up, scroll right past, but this one-sided bullsh¡t attack on dissenters is every bit as obvious as any red-state behavior.”
And if you choose to ignore the fact that I said that both sides in this argument are at fault, I guess that’s up to you. If you also choose to interpret “constant harping” as ‘posting the same article twice’, there’s certainly nothing I can do about that. I DID actually say that “posters have agreed with your points” (including me), and, FYI, I have in fact ‘recommended’ more than a few of your comments (yes, I DO read them.) But I’m not going to waste any more of my time rebutting the rest of your response to my comment. Enjoy the rest of the afternoon, I’m going to try to.
BTW, if you’re NOT ignoring ralph’s past contributions on this site, then perhaps you should rewrite your comment which quite obviously counts only ralph’s comments regarding you and another joe from today as ralphs sole “contributions to this community.”
July 11th, 2009 at 3:58 pmgreat job, hanshiro the antlion #219
I had to copy, paste, and save that one for future references.
Isn’t it funny that, upstairs, without a couple members of the clique, there is no flaming.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm…
July 11th, 2009 at 4:00 pm#218 – knew she was lying…
Probably back in this thread flaming again!
July 11th, 2009 at 4:02 pmJane E. Schneider – oh yeah, ralphie wiggem’s “contributions”…
He is part of a small clique that loves to flame – yeah, thanks and sorry if I did not show proper “deference”. But I could not find a way to email him a turd.
July 11th, 2009 at 4:07 pm“Isn’t it funny that, upstairs, without a couple members of the clique, there is no flaming.”
I think that you got your wish and drove most of the regulars away.
July 11th, 2009 at 4:11 pmNo – but they can’t bully me and neither can you. But upstairs, its a rational dialog and many people are posting the same issues that were flamed down here.
You figure out what the difference is, smarty.
July 11th, 2009 at 4:12 pmOkay, I give up: FU, Joe. Congratulations, you’ve turned into the troll Jay.
July 11th, 2009 at 4:13 pmAnother Joe, you’re Bartlebee aren’t you? That explains a lot. And we are not a small clique and we don’t love to flame. Some of us just like the way TP runs this blog and don’t feel the need to complain about it every day.
July 11th, 2009 at 4:13 pmOh look – it appears paul rosenberg must have stopped by this morning!
Kossack Broderism: It’s NOT The Certainty, Stupid!
by: Paul Rosenberg
O
July 11th, 2009 at 4:14 pm
ummmmm…..
doodle…..
If you can count, you can see its small, but then perhaps you are using only your tiny clique as the “population” (denoted N) instead of the “sample” (denoted n).
July 11th, 2009 at 4:15 pmYou figure out what the difference is, smarty.
They’re on topic?
July 11th, 2009 at 4:16 pmI believe the intent is to drive progressives away from this site and the Democratic party. It’s the only way the Republicans can ever gain control again, pursuade people to squander their votes on pipe dreams.
July 11th, 2009 at 4:16 pmrational dialog without flames upstairs though, doodle, and many of the points are exactly the isses and opinions expressed down here.
How come its not a 230+ baiting and flaming?
Must be because you haven’t soiled it yet.
July 11th, 2009 at 4:17 pmLast resort of those with nothing to contribute, proclaiming someone has another identity.
Keep showing what you are made of, doodle…
July 11th, 2009 at 4:19 pmSecond that Jane #233.
July 11th, 2009 at 4:20 pmHundreds of people post here and we don’t all agree. There are only a few that incur any wrath at all. Most of them are admitted Republicans and then there is your group. You’re actually part of the small clique not us.
July 11th, 2009 at 4:20 pmnot part of your clique, which does not reflect a general consensus here, but keep flamin’ away.
This thread can be the “flypaper for stoooooooooooopid people”, letting the adults to post upstairs.
Funny – we seem to all be in agreement there, it is respectful, and much of what is posted you endlessly flamed here.
And the only difference is, your small clique isn’t posting.
Imagine that – same stuff being said…
July 11th, 2009 at 4:25 pmI think accusing Obama of “failing to prosecute” is premature. I know that puts me in the “wait and see” progressive camp, but there is good reason to be patient.
Obama is a very good politician. The question we should be asking ourselves is why hasn’t Obama chosen to prosecute yet? If Obama were to begin the torture/spying trials now, less would be gained than if he just waits a bit longer.
Assuming Obama does intend on having some accountability in his administration, he should be using this time to gather evidence and build ironclad cases. The smart time to begin the prosecutions is right before the 2010 mid term elections.
If he times it correctly, the Republicans will lose in 2010 because of the scandal of the beginning of the prosecutions, and by 2012, enough dirt will have been exposed that even more, new prosecutions will be in order.
This is a golden opportunity for the Democratic Party, and Obama knows it. The Republican Party can be so utterly wiped out in 2010 and 2012 that failing to be patient is just foolish.
July 11th, 2009 at 4:27 pmNo one really cares if there is a clique or not. No one really cares about your disagreement either.
This TP place has some of the best commenters, and even some pretty good articles exposing Republican hypocrisy and treason.
Let’s not kill each other in our efforts to prevent Republicans from ever regaining political power.
July 11th, 2009 at 4:32 pmShouldn’t you be playing with your kids or making some eco jewelery or jamming on a guitar or something…
July 11th, 2009 at 4:32 pmcome on, doodle, join the adults upstairs and see what your trash talk gets ya.
I take breaks to play guitar – have to practice ya know. Gave up the ying-yang stuff, focusin’ on jazz – much more complex chord forms and harmonies that I need to woodchuck.
Figure when I get older and am tucked away in the senior center, they won’t let me bring the les paul and marshall stack. Besides, that guitar was designed by a jazzman anyhow.
Not into the eco jewelry, kids are outside enjoying the great weather like all kids should (at least if they are fortunate enough to grow up in safe neighborhoods).
July 11th, 2009 at 4:47 pm227.Jane E. Schneider Says:
And if you choose to ignore the fact that I said that both sides in this argument are at fault, I guess that’s up to you.
Yet, as is painfully obvious, you chose to admonish the dissent rather than any of those who began this descent into incivility. look to Doodlebug on #31 and Zooey on #41 and Ralph on #46 to witness the genesis, baiting and namecalling of this slapfight. Attacked the posters, not the posts. Even when Joe and I disagreed, we remained civil, Ralph, et. al. could learn from that example…
If you’re going to presume to step in and reprimand, at least have the intellectual honesty to go after the culprits, not those who defend against them.
I’ll not hold my breath for you to call those fauxgressives on the carpet. Your wrath is both misdirected and apparently biased.
July 11th, 2009 at 4:47 pm244. Levi the Dungbeetle Says: I think accusing Obama of “failing to prosecute” is premature. I know that puts me in the “wait and see” progressive camp, but there is good reason to be patient.
The biggest problem with “wait and see” is that Obama has already signalled his disinclination to pursue investigations and criminal prosecutions of bush’s administration, including blocking lawsuits to recover bush’s emails.
If we “wait and see,” I suspect we’ll be left behind and never know.
July 11th, 2009 at 4:49 pmplaying arch-tops now, not the kind with f-holes and large “sustain blocks” like a 335.
Not judging any genres or players, just saying its a beautiful resonant tone that doesn’t need the overdrive and big amps to enchant.
It does demand precision in tuning and technique though – those floating bridges are a b!tch if you have played solid-bodies for years and aren’t careful with your picking hand.
July 11th, 2009 at 4:50 pmShould I be playing with myself? Well I suppose I could. Still maybe later. You are all so kooky. It is amusing to me…
July 11th, 2009 at 4:51 pmhanshiro the antlion – thanks for documenting that, not that it matters, but I may have to copy, paste and save that end of the thread for future references.
They dont’ have the balls to pull this crap upstairs today, but you know they will again in the future.
July 11th, 2009 at 4:53 pm254.Another Joe Says: hanshiro the antlion – thanks for documenting that, not that it matters, but I may have to copy, paste and save that end of the thread for future references.
It took me all of 45 seconds to track who started smarting off and mis-characterizing other posters; yet Jane couldn’t be bothered. Ralph even went so far as to invent an insult on #46 and attribute it to get the ball rolling.
Cowardly behavior.
July 11th, 2009 at 5:05 pmMore “holier than thou” crap from the clique, this time from a cow!
Who made a bovine the “decider” now?
July 11th, 2009 at 5:06 pm#258 – thanks for update, will add for future reference.
If you want to take the time to document any more of the dishonest rhetoric in this thread, I will save and use the permalink here (and your comments) next time said clique is creating flame wars.
July 11th, 2009 at 5:07 pmLOL
the cliquish cow in this thread wants to play the left/right paradigm, but upstairs he is posting:
This is just too funny
July 11th, 2009 at 5:09 pmNot into the eco jewelry,
July 11th, 2009 at 5:13 pm—-
I thought that was your bread and butter. You know the stores in PA and Jersey. The business name in Virginia. The business owner that never heard of you. Those many galleries scattered across the west that carry yout stuff. That big time San Fran cyber start up….
Time to bring Rove and his ilk to the bar of Justice!!!
July 11th, 2009 at 5:35 pmJeebus, I SAID that BOTH SIDES were at fault. Simply because I didn’t point out every freaking comment from both sides doesn’t mean that I agree completely with all of Zooey’s, Shayne, ralph’s, or any other comments that insulted Hanshiro or another joe. I don’t give a flying fu(k who started today’s argument, and, as I said, I wasn’t even intending to get involved. The only reason I did was due to Hanshiro’s post complaining that ralph’s only contributions at the TP site were insults aimed at Hanshiro and another joe. That’s it. Now you two can go fu(k yourselves, or each other, because I just don’t care anymore.
And Santo, apparently you have MUCH better hearing than I do.
July 11th, 2009 at 5:40 pm266.Jane E. Schneider Says: Jeebus, I SAID that BOTH SIDES were at fault. Simply because I didn’t point out every freaking comment from both sides doesn’t mean that I agree completely with all of Zooey’s, Shayne, ralph’s, or any other comments that insulted Hanshiro or another joe.
No Jane. There’s a vast difference among agreeing with comments, pointing out every comment, and determining who is responsible for fomenting a flame war. Maybe I extended you too much intellectual credit.
Zooey, Ralph and DS clearly started egging on an element of incivity, mischaracterizing and even citing a false insult; basically acting as an attack/divisive little feedback clique.
I don’t give a flying fu(k who started today’s argument, and, as I said, I wasn’t even intending to get involved.
It is clear you don’t care to hold those people responsible for the decline of what was, before their involvement, a civil discussion. Your resistance to hold them accountable for their divisive and insulting behavior is compelling; not the least your coming to the defense of those responsible for the initial disruptive behavior.
That’s it. Now you two can go fu(k yourselves, or each other, because I just don’t care anymore.
Your bias is obvious. Your phony rationale is obvious. Your allegiance to your disruptive zoo buddies is obvious.
Busted.
July 11th, 2009 at 5:53 pmNow who was it that started that 3,2,1 crickets thing on such a fine day for being outside…
July 11th, 2009 at 6:01 pmdown on Bourbon Street… Set up like a….
July 11th, 2009 at 6:05 pm268. dbadass Says: Now who was it that started that 3,2,1 crickets thing on such a fine day for being outside…
That was after your #64 where you were well on your way to ad hom attacks…no post substance addressed, just attack the poster and attempt to disrupt the thread.
You suck at “gotcha” DB…
July 11th, 2009 at 6:16 pmWell on my way? What you talkin’ bout? Seems you have been had. Ever been to Emaus/Emmaus?
July 11th, 2009 at 6:21 pm251 hanshiro the antlion said,
Obama has “signaled his disinclination” because, in my opinion, this is not the right time. As for his blocking email messages from being recovered, it may be because the Federal government already has those emails and needs them for its case.
If we wait and see, and Obama does not pursue this, we won’t be left behind and never know because we already know enough. The truth is out and you can’t put that genie back in the bottle.
If we wait and see, and Obama does pursue this, it will be at a time of his choosing. I think Obama is a crafty enough politician to recognize that now is not the time.
I could very well be wrong, and Obama could let us all down. If so, we shouldn’t be surprised, the government of the United States is the laughing stock of the world. Our leaders are a disgrace and, although it might be seen as unpatriotic, we deserve it.
July 11th, 2009 at 6:42 pmWow. Still at it… these guys got some stamina, I’ll give ‘em that.
Really? Here’s what our friend AJ said at 11:50:
(emphasis mine)
He followed it up with this at 11:53:
Here’s my only comment to that point, at 11:42:
Here is Zooey’s only comment to that point, at 11:05:
.
Here was Shayne’s first comment, after AJ had posted three of the first six:
Sarcastic? Absolutely. “An element of incivility”? Sure, if you’ve got an easily bruised ego.
Here is Shayne’s comment immediately preceding AJ’s post that I noted above:
hanshiro can certainly place some blame on Shayne for setting off AJ this morning. Her sarcasm clearly struck a nerve that has been rubbed raw before — mainly because this is a familiar dynamic the last month or so.
But “egging on an element of incivility”? And how exactly did Zooey and I start that ball rolling?
Whatever. We all will see what we see. Lotsa time and energy got dumped into one more schoolyard brawl. “You’re a clique!” — “No, you’re a clique!” Great stuff. We should all be proud.
July 11th, 2009 at 7:08 pmThanks Ralph, I’ve got to admit I was confused about the whole thing.
July 11th, 2009 at 7:14 pm273.ralph the wonder locust Says: But “egging on an element of incivility”? And how exactly did Zooey and I start that ball rolling?
You’re a disingenuous prick, Ralph. Go crawl back to your little zoo buddies. The thread was civil until your little clique vomited onto the scene.
Switch to decaf, @sshole.
July 11th, 2009 at 7:18 pm273.ralph the wonder locust Says: Really? Here’s what our friend AJ said at 11:50:
Ooops, like Fox, you left out the salient three goading comments that your ‘zoo’ buddy threw at joe at # 27, #30, and #31. You really are a disingenuous, lying prick, Ralph.
July 11th, 2009 at 7:25 pmWow, therapy session is thick today. I don’t want to stop any of your conversations here but I have one question. Did anyone here look up to see how many czars both President’s Obama and Bush have/had?
July 11th, 2009 at 7:28 pmThis from a man who received regular “debriefings” from his own personal smegma czar (AKA Jeff Gannon).
July 11th, 2009 at 11:27 pmsuperid Says:
This from a man who received regular “debriefings” from his own personal smegma czar (AKA Jeff Gannon).
July 11th, 2009 at 11:27 pm
Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!!!!
July 11th, 2009 at 11:37 pmAmazing that Rove still goes out in public after the drumming he and his President have gone through. And still, Rove is so arrogant that he even refuses to talk about his and his boss’s malfeasance. But alas, it will come out and that is beginning to happen with no assistance from the Bush crowd. But even their most sophisticated stonewalling is not enough to stop the flow of investigations that have been, are now and those that will be part of the news cycle for years.
July 12th, 2009 at 2:08 amKKKarl thinks God appointed him the brainwashing czar.
But I don’t think that’s who he’s working for.
July 12th, 2009 at 2:25 amDoodlebug Shayne Says:
——————————————————————————–
What is so annoying is the three holier than thou progressives think they’re the only ones here who read and research other sites and news outlets and they need to keep the rest of us informed because we’re too stupid to do it ourselves. They think we’re as dumb as Rove thinks his followers are. What they don’t know is that many of the points they use to bash President Obama are skewed opinions that have been debunked on other outlets or explained by those more knowledgeable. I’m not saying that’s true on all subjects but on many of them. The problem is they post so much “naysaying” that it’s not worth it to point their error out every time. It’s easier to just tell them we’re not interested but that gives them the illusion of righteousness.
I noticed that too, particularly the bolded parts. I’d argue they *do* know their points are biased though, given the “sources” they’re “citing”.
July 12th, 2009 at 3:06 amWow. Wasn’t that fun yesterday? Hopefully we all got to our anger management classes on time and are all in a better place now.
Here’s a link for all of us…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QyYaPWasos
Viewer discretion advised.
July 12th, 2009 at 10:24 amShayne and the rest of the TP enforcers,
Please ignore all 4 of my posts on this thread. Thank you.
July 12th, 2009 at 4:56 pmFor another hoiler than thou progressive:
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07102009/watch2.html
He mentionons the wife of John Podesta as big health care lobbyist
July 12th, 2009 at 6:05 pmMy apologies, Heather Podesta is the wife of Anthony, not John. But all are lobbyists in one big blue family…
July 12th, 2009 at 6:25 pmMugsy has poor memory or reads into articles. He linked fox news as evidence for Bush starting the czars, citing that the idea for a car czar was introduced in 2008, before Obama took office. If he read the article closely, it was Pelosi pushing the idea in order to retool these manufacturing facilies to produce “green” cars. But, yes, lets blame Bush. He makes the perfect scapegoat with that silly Texan accent.
We can still make the People believe that this poor economy was Bush’s and the conservative Republican’s fault even though we own it!! The People are gullible and sheeples anyway.
July 13th, 2009 at 4:05 amMugsy has poor memory or reads into articles. He linked fox news as evidence for Bush starting the czars, citing that the idea for a car czar was introduced in 2008, before Obama took office. If he read the article closely, it was Pelosi pushing the idea in order to retool these manufacturing facilies to produce “green” cars. But, yes, lets blame Bush. He makes the perfect scapegoat with that silly Texan accent.
July 13th, 2009 at 9:01 pmWe can still make the People believe that this poor economy was Bush’s and the conservative Republican’s fault even though we own it!! The People are gullible and sheeples anyway.
WOW!!! KKKarl Rove: A TWAT on TWITTER!!! FATASS NASTY HYPOCRITE AKA, REPUBLICAN/CHRISTIAN/CONSERTIVE!
July 14th, 2009 at 7:36 am