Bachmann Misreads House Health Bill To Claim ‘Whatever Health Care You Have Now’ Will Be Gone In 5 Years
Bachmann Misreads House Health Bill To Claim ‘Whatever Health Care You Have Now’ Will Be Gone In 5 Years
On Tuesday, three separate House committees — Ways and Means Committee, Energy and Commerce Committee, Education and Labor Committee — released a single health care reform bill, the American Affordable Healthy Choices Act. An analysis by the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office found that the legislation would cost $1 trillion over 10 years and cover 94 percent of Americans (97% if you don’t count undocumented immigrants).
On Dennis Miller’s radio show today, Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-MN) attacked the bill, claiming that it plainly stated that Americans would be forced out of their current health care plans “within five years”:
BACHMANN: Well, what does that mean? That means that politicians are going to substitute their choice for your doctor’s choice for you. That’s exactly what this bill does. Here’s the other thing about that bill. It’s a monstrosity. I have the bill printed out on my desk, it’s over 1,000 pages long. On the 16th page, it says whatever health care you have now, it’s going to be gone within five years. So your current health care plan, you’re not going to have in five years. What you’re going to have is a government plan and a federal bureau is going to decide what you get or if you get anything at all.
Listen here:
Bachmann either misread the bill or is willfully misrepresenting it. In fact, page 16 is the beginning of the section on “Protecting The Choice To Keep Current Coverage.” The section that refers to five years is on page 17, but it’s not about pushing Americans off their current health plans. As the summary on Rep. Pete Stark’s (D-CA) website notes, it simply “provides for a five year grace period for current group health plans to meet specified standards.”
In fact, as the Wonk Room’s Igor Volsky points out, the CBO’s coverage tables “undermine the conservative claim that a public option would eliminate private insurance and erode employer-sponsored coverage”:
The House bill actually increases the number of people who receive coverage through their employer by 2 million (in 2019) and shifts most of the uninsured into private coverage. By 2019, 30 million individuals would also purchase coverage from the Exchange, but only 9-10 million Americans (or approximately 1/3) would enroll in the public option, the rest would enroll in private coverage.
So, in Bachmann’s world, increased private insurance is a government takeover of health care.
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She needs psychiatric help.
Is she purposely acting crazy all the time just to get attention?
Is everything always about her?
July 16th, 2009 at 6:17 pmShelly (Bimbo) Bachmann and Bailin’ Failin’ Palin — separated at birth.
The only difference between the two is that Shelly isn’t thin-skinned enough to resign her office because of all the “abuse” (well-deserved though it is) that she takes.
July 16th, 2009 at 6:23 pmYou know, I actually don’t begrudge Rep. Batshit her healthcare. She clearly needs further evaluation and medication.
Just wish she’d be more willing to share her drugs.
PEACE
July 16th, 2009 at 6:24 pmDennis Miller has a radio show?!
July 16th, 2009 at 6:24 pmEgads!
As a Minnesotan, I couldn’t be more embarrassed by Crazy Shelly.
As a Minnesotan, I couldn’t be more proud of Al Franken.
Quite the gulf between the two, eh?
July 16th, 2009 at 6:24 pmRepublicans such as Representative Michele Bachmann and Governor Sarah Palin seem to be very weak in basic reading comprehension. Maybe they need to go back to junior high school and brush up on reading, writing and arithmetic.
July 16th, 2009 at 6:27 pmIf this woman is re-elected. I vow NEVER to go yo Minnesota. THEY are to blame blame for this train-wreck of a Congresswoman.
July 16th, 2009 at 6:28 pmtom says:
Unfortunately, many of her supporters here in Minnesota don’t realize how nutty she is as the local media almost never reports on Bachmann’s paranoid rantings.
I would love to see the local media “abuse” her more!
July 16th, 2009 at 6:29 pmBachmenn as usual has it all wrong and lied again. We should all know by now anything that comes out of her mouth is completely inept and silly as well as misleading?
No offense to the people of Minnesota but I’m so glad this misleading un-American fringe right-winger is not my Represenative. I talked with a recent colleague of mine that lives in her district, he and others cannot wait to get rid of this “dumb dingbat.”
July 16th, 2009 at 6:32 pmBachmann has obviously read Frank Luntz’s Memo on what phrases to use to defeat health reform. It’s equally clear she hasn’t read the actual health care bill.
http://axisofreason.com/2009/07/16/republicans-real-health-reform-strategy/
July 16th, 2009 at 6:34 pm“medpac” (sp?)
sen. rockefeller on ed just now…
never head ot it before…
medpac – a group of professionals who study and decide how to carry out the plan… or something like that…
anyone?
July 16th, 2009 at 6:36 pmThere are multiple theories out there, botox poisoning-hormonal issues, or the fact that NO Decent hairdresser will work for her.
July 16th, 2009 at 6:36 pmnever heard of it… jeez…
July 16th, 2009 at 6:37 pm” On the 16th page, it says whatever health care you have now, it’s going to be gone within five years. So your current health care plan, you’re not going to have in five years”
Well, Shelly, you’d better hurry up and get into some serious mental health councilling while you still have free choice of doctors. I think that your condition will take at least 5 years of intensive treatment. I hope they fix your brain before you get forced into a governmentally chosen facility. You wouldn’t like the Snake Pit. ( a great movie, starring Olivia De Havilland)
July 16th, 2009 at 6:38 pmShe can’t even understand the census, how can MN trust her with reading the bills that come out of Congress?
July 16th, 2009 at 6:38 pmI don’t know why she’s scared of re-education camps, she obviously doesn’t have an education to begin with that anyone can re-educate….
July 16th, 2009 at 6:41 pmOk, at the risk of being flamed I have a question.
Are they going to be “forcing” coverage?
Either private or this new plan?
What I mean is, the way they’re wording everything, it seems that after this bill passes, every American will need to be under one of these plans, either the govt one, or pick a private one.
Which seems to indicate its going to become law to have health care insurance.
Does anyone have any ideas on this?
July 16th, 2009 at 6:44 pm“I have the bill printed out on my desk, it’s over 1,000 pages long.”… and it has no pictures whatsoever! How can I be expected to understand something with no pictures or cartoon drawings! I just stopped reading after page 16, it was boring.
July 16th, 2009 at 6:47 pmLemme see. Lobbyists are paid by private for profit health insurance through its clients premiums which make insurance more expensive so less can afford it.
Bizarro — people will pay more so they can have less.
July 16th, 2009 at 6:49 pmIt was intentional, she’s a scumbag Republic Fascist Party member and has no ethics or morals and will lie at willfully…
…Republic liars don’t see a problem with lies, it’s what they do.
Fcuk the Republic Fascist Party
July 16th, 2009 at 6:52 pmWhat is this woman on?
July 16th, 2009 at 6:52 pmWAYNEBRO, would it be so wrong to require health insurance if premiums were partially subsidized for those who can’t afford them? One must have car insurance to drive here in Pennsylvania, and part of that expense is to cover uninsured drivers. The same cost-shifting occurs with healthcare for those who have no coverage and don’t pay for services.
There is a provision in the House plan (I think I read it last night on HuffPo) for a 2.5% additional federal tax on those choosing not to purchase healthcare coverage.
I don’t really like the thought of a government mandate, but if it comes along with a good public option, and an increase in the ceiling for qualifying for Medicaid (400% of federal poverty level) I could accept it.
PEACE
July 16th, 2009 at 6:54 pmIt’s difficult to know for sure whether Bachmann (a) hasn’t actually read the bill; (b) can’t comprehend what she’s reading; (c) has no interest in ever reading the bill; or (d) knows what the bill really says and doesn’t care.
I’m leaning toward (e) can’t read or comprehend the bill and doesn’t care because she’s going to make up whatever sh!t she has to make up to get on tv and say nasty things about Democrats and that colored fellow in the White House.
July 16th, 2009 at 6:56 pmI can remember when the knock on Miller was that he was too cerebral. He’s really working hard to put that perception to rest …
July 16th, 2009 at 6:57 pmThe problem with Crazy Shelly is that one can’t tell where the stupidity ends and the insanity begins. And yet, the local media still refuses to expose her as an extremist.
July 16th, 2009 at 7:00 pmSo you’re saying that it will become law?
I’m reading this right and if this law passes, it will become mandatory that everyone purchases health insurance coverage?
That’s what we’re looking at here?
July 16th, 2009 at 7:01 pmYou know what? What are people supposed to do if they have no health care? Die? That is what Ron Christie just said on the ‘Ed Show’ he basically said anyone with a cronic illness should die because it’s to expensive. WTF?
July 16th, 2009 at 7:01 pmAnd no, just because its good for you doesn’t mean its good to make it a law.
July 16th, 2009 at 7:02 pmWhen it comes to healthcare the repugs dont give a sht how many Americans die because they have no insurance.They care about how much it will cost. They also dont want insurance companies to have any competition,that will cut into their profits. For these pathetic repugs it comes down to the almighty dollar. Who the fck do they think they are denying American citizens healthcare. The more people that have access to healthcare the healthier our country will be. That means more people will be able to work wich will make our country more productive wich will lead to more people paying taxes.It seems to be a win,win situation.
July 16th, 2009 at 7:03 pmAutomobile insurance is mandatory in most states and is designed to protect OTHER peoples bodies from the damages caused by your automobile.
A persons health is a private matter, and making a law to compel that they permit some insurance company, any insurance company (which can require physicals, exams, etc for participation and ongoing maintenance) is about the most unAmerican thing I can think of.
I hope I’m wrong and this is not what’s happening here.
Seriously does anyone here know?
If this thing passes, will it become MANDATORY for ALL Americans to join some health insurance program?
July 16th, 2009 at 7:06 pm“Bachmann Misreads House Health Bill To Claim ‘Whatever Health Care You Have Now’ Will Be Gone In 5 Years”
Same psycho talk transmitted from Queen of Planet Wingnuttia. Look forward to Minnesota to come to their senses and not re-elect again this wingnut Congresswoman. Pass the popcorn please.
July 16th, 2009 at 7:06 pmWAYNEBRO,
I’ve only read a part of one summary and have lost my place but, as I read it, it requires that coverage extend to those who can’t afford another plan. It does not, to my inexpert eye, require that anyone purchase a particular plan. I didn’t see anything that indicated it would be like a requirement to show proof of insurance like for one’s car in many states.
I’ll try to find the relevant quote but legal crap makes me sleepy. And angry. Maybe someone else has the relevant part handy?
July 16th, 2009 at 7:10 pmWhy is someone “voting down” my question?
Is all we have anymore is partisan cheerleaders in here or does anyone actually think and speak anymore? I’m asking a question.
A question that is seems no one in here has bothered to deal with yet.
IF this bill passes, will it become MANDATORY for ALL Americans to join some health insurance plan?
Does anyone actually know?
Or care?
July 16th, 2009 at 7:11 pmSo watchpuppy, before you get zapped out of here, whats your take on the topic on hand? Do you think Bachmann is a loon or has a point? When you answer, try staying on point.
July 16th, 2009 at 7:11 pmWAYNEBRO, fixed that for you.
July 16th, 2009 at 7:15 pmI’m trying to answer your question, WAYNEBRO. And I’m not the one voting you down. I’ve had a few down votes myself and wouldn’t think of making it into an issue. Seems like a self-defeating battle.
July 16th, 2009 at 7:17 pmI hope this bachmann btch is lying herself right out of a job.
July 16th, 2009 at 7:18 pmHow can any reasonable person not see right thru the rightwingnut BS. Repugs are all about big business,big oil,and power. They dont care about the middle class, the working poor, and the poor. I for one am so tired of them.
evangenital says:
She needs psychiatric help.
Is she purposely acting crazy all the time just to get attention?
I do believe that she acts this way to get attention. Ever since she kissed President Bush and hung on to him for 15 minutes on his inauguration day she has been addicted to the spotlight. I think she is even more addicted than Sarah Palin.
Unfortunately for her, she comes off as a total nut job. I seriously doubt that she has much chance of re-election as long as the Democrats can come up with a candidate marginally more exciting than the last one who came close to beating her.
July 16th, 2009 at 7:18 pmA. I didn’t say you were the one voting me down.
B. I didn’t make it into an issue I asked a question.
C. You didn’t answer my question. From what you wrote it appears you don’t know for sure yourself either.
All I’m doing is asking a question here.
A question it seems no one either for or against the plan seems to have a solid answer to.
July 16th, 2009 at 7:19 pmI’ll ask again.
Does anyone know whether or not the passage of this bill will introduce new legislation making it mandatory to carry some form of personal health insurance coverage?
From the wording I’ve heard it sounds like it may be mandatory but I could be mistaken. Does anyone actually know?
July 16th, 2009 at 7:22 pmThere have been a few encouraging signs, sscncturn64 and Bilbo. Her national image as a raving lunatic is starting to trickle through into the local media. The potential Democratic candidates are already talking about her.
But, best of all, there should be a ton of money coming in from out of state. Her appearance on Hardball nearly cost her the last election and, between her insanity and the grudge over the blocking of Al Franken, there’s going to be national support for her opponent.
All of this is assuming she isn’t locked in a padded cell before the next election.
July 16th, 2009 at 7:24 pmI don’t know, Waynebro.
There is the government option, but if someone can’t pay anything toward this option, I don’t see how they can make it mandatory. But it also defeats the purpose of reform.
July 16th, 2009 at 7:26 pmWAYNEBRO, I don’t think anyone here has read the bill yet, seeing as the ink is hardly dry yet. This is also just phase one and not the final bill. We have along way to go before we have a bill. I would think that if the house bill was making this mandatory, the repugs would be screaming from the rafters. Also sense the bill does not cover everyone, I don’t see how it caqn be mandatory.
July 16th, 2009 at 7:28 pmAs I said, WAYNEBRO, I haven’t seen anything that says it’s mandatory and haven’t heard a reliable informed source make that claim. Crazy Shelly seems to be the one leading the charge out on the limb and the only others I’ve seen aping her are no more reliable than she is.
July 16th, 2009 at 7:30 pmNo one seems to know. I don’t know either. But from what I can tell by the wording it will be. Look at this quote for example from the article;
They’re talking as if it will be law. “30 million would purchase coverage”. Sounds like they’re talking about the uninsured being compelled to enroll in either the Exchange or go with a private carrier.
I’m not sure how it’d be enforced either but it seems like that’s where this is going.
I know I don’t like the sound of that.
July 16th, 2009 at 7:30 pmSo you don’t know.
July 16th, 2009 at 7:30 pmI don’t know either Pete.
What I’m trying to do is see if someone here actually DOES know.
Telling me you “haven’t seen anything” isn’t answering the question.
I’ve seen things that indicate it might be mandatory which is why I am asking.
July 16th, 2009 at 7:32 pm1. bachmann represents a district saturated with RW media
July 16th, 2009 at 7:33 pm2. receives campaign funding from millionaire evangelicals like mac hammond and his ilk
3. the district is so entrenched in RW crazy, they would follow rush off any cliff anytime
4. she seems to me like an ‘act’, knowing that some people will believe what she says, no matter how insane- and she’s right
5. no, there is no penalty for not having health care- just like vets are not forced to go to the VA- but finally everyone who needs insurance will have it with the eventual ‘pool’ including enough people to hold it’s own with minimal gov subsidy- f e a r is the m i n d – k i l l e r. (’Dune’)
Hey Waynebro, Im thinking along the lines of Zooey. If you cant afford it then i cant see it being mandatory. It would sure be nice to have an option though.
July 16th, 2009 at 7:34 pmWAYNEBRO, what have you seen that might indicate it being mandatory? Also, since it doesn’t cover everyone, how does that make any sense?
July 16th, 2009 at 7:35 pmWell this would be sort of a pivotal detail of the bill, don’t you think? I’ve heard things from the way it’s being sold that leads me to believe it could be mandatory.
If what Spencer’s mom said about there being a tax on individuals opting out, then that would seem to indicate a degree of law and penalty involved.
Like you said, it doesn’t seem like anyone really knows so I think this is a key issue we might want to confirm one way or the other.
July 16th, 2009 at 7:37 pmWAYNEBRO, I’m not sure whether citizens will be required to purchase some form of coverage, was just trying to answer your question based on what I’d read last night on HuffPo. I do know that the bill will bring coveragoe to 97% of Americans (why they can’t cover that last 3% is beyond me…) but whether that’s because coverage is forced or penalized, I don’t know.
And I’m not voting you down… I’ve got a (-1) on my response to you!
Troll shenanigans no doubt.
PEACE
July 16th, 2009 at 7:37 pmLike I just showed you in the quote above from the article. Everything I’m hearing on the news is parroting that language.
And as for the bill not covering everyone, you mean the Exchange won’t cover everyone. It won’t cover those already insured. But will people be compelled to have insurance, or be penalized if they don’t? That’s a key question that I think we’d want answered.
July 16th, 2009 at 7:39 pmHonest to God, Bachmann is the most ridiculous, uninformed, ignorant, racist, stupid, idiotic politician today. As stupid as Palin is, Bachmann overshadows her completely. Can anyone who voted for her before ever, EVER, vote for her again? Sorry, but she has no clue, no patriotism, no understanding, no ethics. Turf her out. She’ll destroy not only your state, but also your party.
July 16th, 2009 at 7:40 pmThe bill provides that employers who do not offer health insurance will pay a tax or can go through the Exchange to find a group health insurance policy that will be affordable for businesses because these small businesses will be able to join together to negotiate for private health insurance. The competition will be that private insurance will have to meet the cost and quality of the public option. If the private insurance companies will not offer reasonable premiums then the public option will allow small businesses to pay the tax and get low cost insurance. There is no take over or mandatory provisions other than everyone is to have insurance and insurance companies can no longer deny coverage for pre-existing conditions.
July 16th, 2009 at 7:41 pmYea I figured those trolls like that new button.
I guess we need to look further into this because the idea of forced or compelled coverage is just way to 1984 for me and I’d hope for the rest of you.
Hopefully that’s not the case but it would be good I think to know.
July 16th, 2009 at 7:41 pmWAYNEBRO, here is the article I read last night over at HuffPo. This blogger is someone I know well and used to work with, and he’s linked in on the latest in the world of healthcare.
PEACE
July 16th, 2009 at 7:43 pmEveryone “IS” to have coverage?
What does that mean?
“IS to have coverage” means “Has to have coverage”?
July 16th, 2009 at 7:44 pmpags2 says:
July 16th, 2009 at 7:41 pm
Thanks for that, pags2.
Do you know anything about coverage for individuals who are self-employed or unemployed?
I’m assuming they would have access to the public option, but would such coverage be mandatory?
July 16th, 2009 at 7:45 pmWAYNEBRO, from what I know, it means anyone with a pre-existing conditions cannot be denied insurance.
July 16th, 2009 at 7:48 pmZooey, go read the blog post I linked to in 59. He speaks about the good and the bad, and the mandate/penalty.
PEACE
July 16th, 2009 at 7:53 pmMom,
I just read it. Ugh…
July 16th, 2009 at 7:54 pmWaynebro, I have seen several articles in which a fine for NOT having health insurance once a public option is made available was discussed, and if that is part of the current plan, then I can’t say I’m for it.
July 16th, 2009 at 7:59 pmThanks for the link, spencers mom. He covers the high points. Although, when reading through the pdf of the bill there’s a whole lot of really confusing stuff about how and when credits would kick in for those eligible to have some or all of their premiums offset.
But it is very clear that Crazy Shelly is totally off base with her claim that one’s insurance will be gone in 5 years. That’s merely the window that employers will have to chose between private and public insurers. There’s definitely no mandate there.
July 16th, 2009 at 8:07 pmZooey says:
Do you know anything about coverage for individuals who are self-employed or unemployed?
I’m assuming they would have access to the public option, but would such coverage be mandatory?
Individuals and business owners will be able to purchase through the public option. There will be various levels of insurance so that everyone can have access to higher levels of coverage. People who do not have a large incomes will have get a subsidy to buy coverage, private or public. The poor will still have Medicaid through welfare. The bill allows hardship exemptions but I cannot think of any reason why someone should not have to have insurance. The working poor and middle class will benefit the most from subsidies and insurance companies will need to compete for that business.
July 16th, 2009 at 8:10 pmfrom page 16…..
“Except as provided in this paragraph, the individual health insurance issuer offering such coverage does not enroll any individual in such coverage if the first effective date of coverage is on or after the first day” of the year the legislation becomes law.
Shelly appears to be correct in her assesment.
July 16th, 2009 at 8:21 pm31 WAYNEBRO
I think this is a valid point and one that ought to be clarified.
Yes. Many states demand car insurance for car owners.
There is a bit of a fiction at work with that scheme.
Hold on a second and we will see how this applies or doesn’t apply to the case of health care. I’m trying to be brief so I may take a few jumps.
Minimum mandatory car insurance applies to damage YOUR car causes upon others, NOT to damage to your car or your injuries.
But let’s suppose you get hit or run over by a non insured driver.
You are sht out of luck.
If you are hit by someone driving a Benz, you’d probably can find a PERSONAL INJURY lawyer willing to do a light foot work and find out if the responsible party has enough dough to go after it.
If you are hit by someone driving a clunker and with no cash,
YOU ARE SHT out of luck.
Your treatment, your financial losses, are YOUR OWN.
The STATE does not come in and compensate you or pay for your bills.
Now let’s take a look at universal care including MANDATORY INSURANCE COVERAGE.
The difficulty there lies in the poor and some negligent individuals that will choose NOT to pay for their HEALTH insurance. In addition, throw in the fact that ANY private institution is looking to make a profit, even if they are just shoving paper around.
Let me offer one example of this system at work.
Social Security Disability.
There are people that are disabled, obviously can’t work, and have onerous prescription expenses like advanced stage diabetes.
They can’t afford private HEALTH insurance, insurance companies won’t cover them any way and they are literally begging at public hospital emergency rooms.
To recap.
As far as MANDATING PRIVATE HEALTH INSURANCE COVERAGE, I think it is a bad idea.
Giving the option of PAYING for PRIVATE HEALTH INSURANCE along with the option of PAYING INTO FEDERAL HEALTH INSURANCE seem like a better option.
In fact, there is a similar measure already built in the current tax code.
July 16th, 2009 at 8:23 pmFor any of you that file a Schedule A, you will see that your “MEDICAL AND DENTAL EXPENSES” are capped. As if anyone would like to spend money in doctor’s fees for fun.
I know.
That’s why I said “Automobile insurance is mandatory in most states and is designed to protect OTHER peoples bodies from the damages caused by your automobile.”
Why are you responding to me as if I said the opposite?
July 16th, 2009 at 8:30 pmI would expect that eventually there will be health care withholding on people’s paychecks so that they will not be able to opt out, but it will be nominal because of the subsidies to the working class poor and middle class. These subsidies will reduce the premiums people will pay. The money for the subsidies will come from the payroll health care tax. In essence, the lowest wage earners will pay nothing for health care so there will be no deductions. As you go up the income levels the subsidy will decrease, but as your income goes up, the more likely your employer will have group insurance.
Everyone will have deductibles and copays that they will need to pay before the insurance kicks in.
July 16th, 2009 at 8:32 pmIt’s looking to me as if this new program is going to be a mandate for most adults to chose between a private insurance company or a “slightly” less expensive govt option.
I don’t know that for sure because as we’ve seen over the past hours since I asked the question no one really seems to know for sure.
I think we need to know more about this program and what it’s really going to give us for all the money it’s going to cost us.
Maybe it’s a good thing. But so far no ones sure of a critical, pivotal detail of the program, so until we are it seems we need to know more before signing on in support of it. As least I know I do.
July 16th, 2009 at 8:34 pmThe problem I have is our current system is broken. Completely. The HMO’s and PPO’s are programs that came from the Nixon administration of all places.
These programs are designed to provide as little care as possible and paper pushers get to decide what treatments you get, not your doctor.
This new program seems to want to “shore up” that program, and offer an option that appears to be modeled after these HMO and PPO programs. This isn’t anything remotely resembling the change we were promised from what I can tell. I was looking for national health care, like Canada or England, where the govt pays the doctors salaries and the doctors treat their patients based on what will cure them, not what some tight ass loser at an insurance company thinks you need.
July 16th, 2009 at 8:40 pmIt isn’t just Bachmann selling this line of misrepresentation, it is all of the republicans in the house and the Senate that are trying to sell that notion.
The thinking people of the nation can not allow them to do that.
July 16th, 2009 at 8:41 pmShe’s lying …again!
July 16th, 2009 at 8:43 pmBachmann needs a reading tutor.
July 16th, 2009 at 8:43 pmI’m hoping I’m wrong and someone will find conclusively that no mandatory coverage will be legislated and that this govt option will not be just another insurance conglomerate with some federal oversight thrown in.
I’m at this point in stasis, waiting to learn more.
July 16th, 2009 at 8:44 pmThe insurance will have to be mandatory. I am less concerned about the poor and the lower middle class not having insurance since they will be subsidized. The unemployed have Medicaid. It is more a problem for people who are not getting a subsidy who may decide to opt out of the employer’s group health and go naked. The rationale for these people will be that they have other bills to pay or the person is young and gambles there will be no health issues.
July 16th, 2009 at 8:51 pm70 WAYNEBRO
Dude, take a chill pill.
I agree with you, trying to explain in simple terms through my words and examples, then you get all puffy.
July 16th, 2009 at 8:51 pmThat’s the whole problem, WAYNEBRO. I don’t think there’s a single answer to your question and “mandate” is a bit ambiguous in this context. Plus, at this stage, it’s still essentially draft legislation and it’s creating new programs and terminology to go with them.
July 16th, 2009 at 8:52 pmThe insurance, public and private, will have varying levels of coverage from the low cost minimal insurance to the highest level which will give greater coverage.
July 16th, 2009 at 8:54 pmHeh! It’s amusing to see how eager we all are to expect the worst from elected officials. With good reason.
It’s good to question our Representatives and Senators but we need to give them time to hash stuff out. And in this case of such a radical piece of legislation there’s going to be problems, amendments, mistakes, and oversights. And that’s before it gets anywhere near the Senate much less the President’s desk.
July 16th, 2009 at 9:07 pmCats r Flyfishn says:
Bachmann needs a reading tutor.
She may need a defense attorney to do an imbecile defense before it is all said and done.
I hear the Bush family knows of some good attorneys and specialists who could help.
July 16th, 2009 at 9:11 pmMichelle Bachmann is half right. For many people, the health care they have now WILL be gone in five years (or sooner). Oh, the health care will still be available — it just will be out of reach for these people.
Bachmann, as well as most other people in bed with the health care industry, is totally oblivious to the ever-accelerating death spiral associated with the health insurance industry today.
Here’s how it works, in simple terms:
Step 1: An uninsured person goes without regular doctor checkups and wellness programs because he can’t pay for these things out of pocket.
Step 2: This uninsured has a major health emergency (like a heart attack that might have been prevented with proper care) and winds up in an emergency room. Naturally, he can’t pay the bill.
Step 3: If enough people receiving emergency care can’t pay their bills, the hospital has to make up the shortfall by charging more from the people who CAN pay — the insured.
Step 4: Insurance company is now paying out more in claims. So they raise the cost of their premiums to protect their profit margin.
Step 5: For many of the insurance company’s policyholders, that last rate increase just busted their budget and they give up their insurance because they can no longer afford it. Furthermore, that last rate increase just caused several employers to cut back on the health insurance benefits they provide to their employees — by either offering plans with less coverage, or by making employees pay more of the premium out of their own pocket. Or they drop health benefits altogether.
Step 6: Another layer of uninsured people has been created. Return to Step 1, but imagine that step with more people now. With each cycle, this entire process accelerates. The whole health care system is being supported by fewer and fewer people, who are paying more and more.
We are now in a death-spiral. If nothing is done, Bachmann will be right — a great many of us won’t have the health care we have today. We’ll all just wait until we get really sick, then report to an emergency room — which will be paid for by the few people who are still paying into the system.
On the other hand, if we apply some meaningful reform to the system, we will not only have the same excellent health care we have today, it will be available to more people and it will be less expensive.
July 16th, 2009 at 10:49 pm. .. ,,,
watchdog,
only one comment?
dog’s palin on us, hasn’t he?
:|
July 16th, 2009 at 11:24 pmWill someone please find a bus willing to run over the esteemed congresswoman from Minnesota. Please.
July 16th, 2009 at 11:42 pmmisscoleopteramolly says:
“On the other hand, if we apply some meaningful reform to the system, we will not only have the same excellent health care we have today, it will be available to more people and it will be less expensive.”
…and so this government, our government, the one responsible for 60 trillion dollars in unfunded liability is going to bring about meaningful reform? Sure, when pigs fly!
July 16th, 2009 at 11:51 pmFollow the money. There’s no easy money floating around or opportunity for waste, fraud, and abuse when government is efficient. Lawmakers have no power where efficiency exists.
So, let’s name efficient government activities. First, there’s …………………………….Oh well. So much for health reform. So much for better and cheaper health care.
She is lying as usual. I don’t understand repugs at all–I really don’t want to either–it’s like talking to a complete idiot.
These fools are going to voice it down no matter what’s in the bill.
Hey, Ms Prissy, people are dying, families are in despaired, you silly woman.
I hate ditsy, especially in an elected official.
What was her response once confronted with the truth?
July 17th, 2009 at 12:02 amWhat the stupid trolls fail to realize is that we aren’t still proceeding under the faulty premise that government can’t work.
Social Security works. Medicare works. VA medical care works. The freakin’ U.S.P.S. and military work.
Are any of them perfect? Of course not. But they are all extraordinarily big government programs that give a tremendous return on the investment. And the millions well served far outstrip the handful of horror stories.
Go peddle your “government can’t do anything” at some site where they’re just waiting for the apocalypse. All you FreePer types liked “big government” just fine when the Chimperror was destroying so much of what made this country great. Now it’s time to see if the other side can actually fix the damage in one generation. I don’t give us very good odds but it’s moronic to not try.
July 17th, 2009 at 12:16 ammisscoleopteramolly says:
Michelle Bachmann is half right.
A stopped clock is right twice a day.
July 17th, 2009 at 1:00 amAnd we can only hope that Michelle Bachmann is gone–long before another five years passes.
July 17th, 2009 at 1:01 amYes, government works. The government estimates 20%-25% waste and fraud in Medicare/Medicaid and USPS runs billions difficits. The military works as does VA. But the military runs them, not government. Congressmen and their families go on 2 or 3 taxpayer junkets each year. They give themselves automatic pay raises. They give themselves each millions of dollars in expenses each year. Government can’t or won’t stop the fraud and now they want a massive new bureaucracy. He**, stopping that fraud alone would finance the health plan. Peddle your “Government is our salvation” malarky somewhere else.
July 17th, 2009 at 1:16 am# 40. 5/21/07 8:39 AM by stickaforkinus
I guess I’ll make my sure my son learns Spanish, he’ll need it to survive in whatever this country becomes. In 30 or 40 years it probably won’t even be in intact. Maybe part of it will remain the United States- but most of it will probably be part of Mexico again.
When a nation surrenders its borders the way we are, how can it survive? I think we’re doomed.
Get the tombstone ready America, let the epitaph read: “America: destroyed by greed, apathy,laziness and weakness.”
Viva la nuevo America!
* * *
crazy fool :|
>… .. .
July 17th, 2009 at 1:30 amHow does one get “all puffy” asking a question?
I just asked you why you were responding to me as if I’d said the opposite of what I had actually said. That’s a perfectly legitimate question. Maybe you should take your own advice.
July 17th, 2009 at 1:35 amWell i can see that the uninformed are at it again.
To help those of you out that can’t read or don’t want to hear the truth here it goes.
THe bill that the democrats want to shove through will drive people off their health care plans they have now for 2 reasons. 1 if you or your employer drops the plan than you have to go on the government plan. 2 if the company that has written your plan goes out of business than you have to go on the government plan. once you stop the plan you have now you can NOT start another private plan you MUST go on the governemt plan.
That being said the liberals on here just make me laugh. This “national health care plan” is a joke. I remember you liberals screaming about Bush raising the debt with his tax cuts and yet i don’t hear a single one of you screaming about the fact that resident obama has raised the debt what 10 times what any former president has ever. He said that unemployment wouldn’t get any higher than 8 percent and now it is at 9.5. The stimuless was going to help right away and they have only spent 7.7% of it and no one has seen it yet.
right and the government is good at making programs work. That is the biggest joke there is.
pete says:
——————————————————————————–
What the stupid trolls fail to realize is that we aren’t still proceeding under the faulty premise that government can’t work.
Social Security works. Medicare works. VA medical care works. The freakin’ U.S.P.S. and military work.
Are any of them perfect? Of course not. But they are all extraordinarily big government programs that give a tremendous return on the investment. And the millions well served far outstrip the handful of horror stories.
Go peddle your “government can’t do anything” at some site where they’re just waiting for the apocalypse. All you FreePer types liked “big government” just fine when the Chimperror was destroying so much of what made this country great. Now it’s time to see if the other side can actually fix the damage in one generation. I don’t give us very good odds but it’s moronic to not try.
Pete once again you are an idiot. You need to read something other than the liberal coolaid ads that they mail you.
Here are some facts for you.
July 17th, 2009 at 1:38 amU.S. Treasury’s 2008 Financial Report of the United States Government reports that the present value of the 75-year Medicare deficit was $36.3 trillion at year-end 2008, just above 2.5 times current GDP. here were about 152 million Americans aged 15-64 as of July, 2007. Using that number, the Medicare debt of $22.5 trillion is equivalent to about $150,000 per working aged adult. Viewed yet another way, 152 million workers would need to pay an average annual amount close to $5,000 over the next 75 years to fund the projected 75-year deficit.
And that is a well run program?
As for Social Security that is a joke. it hasn’t been working since the democrats got rid of the S.S. fund and made it part of the general fund. Once they pay out S.S for the year what ever is left over they pay towards the federal government’s general purpose deficit. Yeah that program is working great to. the only one that might be working at all is the VA plan and it isnt working as good as it should. So once again the coolaid drinking liberals are just sitting there drinking it up.
Mandate means mandate. Will there be some penalty or compulsion to enroll in health care coverage? It’s a simple question. And yes, there is an answer to it.
We have a right to know what this program is about before we start cheering it on. We’re throwing money around and passing laws and no one seems to know what its all about. I’ve been reading quietly for weeks now as everyones been debating for this health care bill. Yet no one seems to know if it will be in any way compulsory or not.
No ones saying it is. No ones saying it isn’t. I don’t know. No one seems to know.
I think we should know.
July 17th, 2009 at 1:40 amSTICKAFORKINUS
SEVERAL POINTS:
1. THE GOVERNMENT DOES AN EXCELLENT JOB IN PROVIDING HEALTH CARE THROUGH MEDICARE, MEDICAID, MILITARY HOSPITALS AND THE VA. THE QUALITY OF CARE AND PATIENT SATISFACTION WITH THESE INSTITUTIONS HAS BEEN HIGHER THAN THAT FOR PATIENTS WITH PRIVATE OR EMPLOYER PROVIDED HEALTH CARE. EVEN WITH THE ESTIMATE OF FRAUD, WASTE AND ABUSE, MEDICARE STILL COMES OUT SLIGHTLY LESS THAN THE PRIVATE INSURANCE (30% PLUS OVERHEAD) OR SUBSIDIZED PRIVATE HMO CARE FOR MEDICARE PATIENTS. MY GUESS IS THAT A LOT OF FRAUD, WASTE AND ABUSE CAN BE ELIMINATED BY PROVIDING MORE OVERSIGHT (REMEMBER THE BIG PUSH TO DE-REGULATE SINCE REGAN) AND THROUGH REDUCING THE IMPACT OF THE HEALTH INDUSTRY LOBBYING TEAMS (ONE WOULD HOPE THAT THE PUBLIC OPTION WOULD FORCE CUT BACKS ON THE PART OF PRIVATE INSURANCE TO REMAIN COMPETITIVE.)
2. JUST HOW STUPID ARE YOU? HAVING BEEN IN THE MILITARY AND HAVING REPRESENTED THE GOVERNMENT IN COURT FOR MANY A YEAR, I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT THE MILITARY IS INDEED PART OF THE GOVERNMENT. MEDICARE AND THE VA BOTH TREAT PATIENT POPULATIONS FOR LESS PER HEAD THAN PRIVATE INSURERS. INTERESTING CONSIDERING THAT BOTH POPULATIONS TEND TO BE THE MOST EXPENSIVE TO TREAT.
3. RIGHT NOW WE HAVE AN OLIGOPOLY IN HEALTH CARE WITH MOST GEOGRAPHIC REGIONS BEING UNDER THE CONTROL OF A FEW INSURANCE COMPANIES. THE DOJ HAS DEEMED THE MARKET TO BE HIGHLY CONCENTRATED IN AN AREA OF THE MARKET WITH INELASTIC DEMAND. THE PUBLIC OPTION WOULD CREATE MORE COMPETITION WITH AN ALTERNATIVE THAT WILL NOT BE DEDICATED TO MAXIMIZING PROFIT THROUGH SUCH TACTICS AS RESCISSION, DUMPING PATIENTS, PRE-EXISTING ILLNESS AND OTHER TACTICS THAT TEND TO DEFEAT THE ACTUAL PURPOSE OF INSURED COMMUNITY POOLING OF RISK. PRIVATE INSURERS WOULD HAVE MUCH MORE INCENTIVE TO STREAMLINE OPERATIONS, UTILIZE COMMUNITY POOLING AND PROVIDE HIGHER QUALITY OF SERVICE. THE TACIT RECOGNITION OF DIVIDING THE MARKET INHERENT IN MOST OLIGOPOLIES WOULD BE LIMITED BECAUSE OF THE PUBLIC OPTION.
July 17th, 2009 at 1:42 amHa ha ha. A down (-) vote in this liberal forum is a badge of honor. Thanks.
Question: When is a law not a law?
July 17th, 2009 at 1:55 amAnswer: When the judge is a liberal.
Outlaw284:
I will just address the SS portion of your argument. The future deficit is based upon several assumptions that just do not hold up. First, it projects the cost of SS to infinity. TOO INFINITY? The US Society of Actuaries has objected to this Republican innovation because it is extremely misleading. Second, the report on SS relies upon the middle estimate of GDP growth which has been extremely inaccurate. The high estimate has been extremely accurate over the past several decades.
This is just a typical Republican strategy to fear monger and to mislead the public.
July 17th, 2009 at 2:09 amspencers mom says:
I do know that the bill will bring coveragoe to 97% of Americans (why they can’t cover that last 3% is beyond me…) but whether that’s because coverage is forced or penalized, I don’t know.
Could the 3% be the filthy rich? If that’s the case then the percentage should be higher, around 10%.
I don’t think the hospital cops will snatched one off the streets, stick a probe up one’s ass and do a full scan without one’s consent. teehee.
July 17th, 2009 at 2:49 amJMOHR says:
1. THE GOVERNMENT DOES AN EXCELLENT JOB IN PROVIDING HEALTH CARE THROUGH MEDICARE, MEDICAID, MILITARY HOSPITALS AND THE VA
That’s why waste and fraud is under control, they do such a good job. If I could afford to waste a lot of money, I could probably afford to buy a better car. A more correct statement would be ‘the gov. provides excellent health care while wasting massive amounts of money.’
JMOHR says:
2. YOU THAT THE MILITARY IS INDEED PART OF THE GOVERNMENT. MEDICARE AND THE VA BOTH TREAT PATIENT POPULATIONS FOR LESS PER HEAD THAN PRIVATE INSURERS. INTERESTING CONSIDERING THAT BOTH POPULATIONS TEND TO BE THE MOST EXPENSIVE TO TREAT.
I was in the military also and I can assure you, the military is governed by the government. The military is disciplined, the government is not. They don’t have to sell their souls to get reelected. Have you ever watched House or Senate hearings when the Chairman, or Joint Chiefs, or generals have to sit looking like whipped puppies as they are insulted by ‘the government’ (Congressmen) ? Internally, the military is not burdened with government bureaucrats. Also, the private sector pays for medical innovation. What are we going to do when the medical industry doesn’t make a profit? The insurance companies don’t profit all the money they take in. Most goes to doctors, nurses, drug companies, for medical appliances, research, etc. Liberals really enjoy demonizing the hands that feed them.
JMOHR says:
3. THE PUBLIC OPTION WOULD CREATE MORE COMPETITION WITH AN ALTERNATIVE THAT WILL NOT BE DEDICATED TO MAXIMIZING PROFIT
I agree with most of your third point except for the above.
If DOJ thinks there is criminal behavior, they should break up the concentration. Without profit, there is no discovery, no innovation, no increase in life expectancy.
I suppose you are aware that typing in all caps font implies screaming.
Liberals claim that half the cost will be paid by the rich, the other half by savings. Sure. The government is good at saving. Barney Frank wants to use TARP repayments to give to community organizations which make up ACORN. Yeah, we’re going to save a lot just like Obama will ’save or create’ 4 million jobs.
July 17th, 2009 at 3:13 amALERT ALERT ALERT
The head of the CBO, in hearings today, said that health care costs under the House plan would increase.
All libs, read these if you dare.
http://www.cqpolitics.com/wmspage.cfm?parm1=5&docID=news-000003168293
http://cboblog.cbo.gov/?p=328
July 17th, 2009 at 4:02 amwhining about the government… Claiming others have to be dared… what sort of bullshit wannabe hardon crap is this…
July 17th, 2009 at 4:41 amAnother brainy lib. I’m not whining; I’m crying, moaning, and wailing. I think you got a bad dose. I didn’t claim others have to be anything. What is a wannabe hardon crap? Do you have to squat?
July 17th, 2009 at 5:26 amOops I must have misread this part “All libs, read these if you dare.” as well as the rest of them. They all sorted blended into one. Anyway please try and compose yourself what with the crying, moaning, wailing and all. If this is indeed the greatest nation how is it possible that the governemt can’t be just dandy as well? Hey why don’t we see if we can cheer you up by wrapping flags around stuff…
July 17th, 2009 at 5:32 ambecause……
July 17th, 2009 at 5:55 amGovernment run social programs are never never never sustainable and will always bring down a society. Why? Politicians are cowards and have no self restraint. They will sell their souls for a vote and take from one to give to another who will vote for him. Some will even empoverish a group to establish dependency. When they run out of peoples money, they borrow from elsewhere. When they can’t borrow any more, the society will colapse and be enslaved to those who financed the debt. By destroying the engine which promotes wealth building, wealth will disappear. How do you finance social programs when you’re broke? We’re almost there. Only a fool will trust government and ask for more.
So I quess I can assume you don’t go in for that greatest nation dealio.Okay well is there another government that you think is better? In what ways? Since the human species is uniquely adapted to live in complex social organizations, who should a fool trust?
July 17th, 2009 at 6:04 amThere may not be a better government. But, on a scale of 1 to 10 with 1 being crap and 10 is ‘becomming crap’, I find it hard to get enthused with ours. Deficit of 1.8 trillion being predicted for this year, and projected another 8 trillion in the next 10 years, you should be wailing too. Who do you think is going to pay that debt? I’ll tell you who. No-one. The US will soon claim bankruptcy or default on the debt and that will percipitate a horrible war with the debtholders.
July 17th, 2009 at 6:20 amHave you considered becoming a freegan? It helps you to chill out on all that self imposed stress about dollars and cents…I highly recommend it…
July 17th, 2009 at 6:34 amDon’t know freegan. This is not about dollars and cents. It’s about freedom and liberty. I won’t have to struggle because of our nations debt but my children and grandchildren will. I guess I could bury my head in the sand. The government will force purchase of health insurance, force using small electric cars, force child education in a failing public system, will force higher and higher taxes for fewer and fewer services. Gee, what have we got to fret about. As long as people, such as you, don’t fret about these things, the more government will impose itself on us. You’re probably not aware that there is a provision in proposed Cap and Trade bills that says you can’t sell your house unless a gov. inspector inspects it and certifies that it meets all green requirements; weather stripping, double vacuum pane windows, insulation, energy star heat and cool systems, and on and on and on. Even the gov. says greenhouse gasses will encrease if the current proposals pass.
July 17th, 2009 at 7:00 amWell I suppose while you fret, I will go live. The sun has come up the world is calling. I am going to go bird watching.
July 17th, 2009 at 7:10 amcheers. Just share with one another and slow down. Most of the shit you think you need you don’t really and when you share everyone benefits….I hope I see a summer tanager but I will be satisfied by whatever I see….Oh and the big bag government can raise my taxes if they want to. All I ask is that it be used to fund social programs
Have you noticed that bird species are disappearing? A couple years ago, I could hardly keep nectar in the hummingbird feeders. Swarms of goldfinches would visit my sunflower seed feeders. Indigo buntings were numerous. Now, all these are very few and far between. Pileated woodpeckers as large as small chickens would prowl my yard.
July 17th, 2009 at 7:19 amMostly I have seen a shift of southern species northward but other stuff too. In particular, red bellied woodpecker. If you find changes in the distribution and abundance of species you should take a look at what is going on in the oceans… I’ll post the bird list later…I really have to get out there by 10 the window will close…
July 17th, 2009 at 7:26 amWell, things are a little slow. Only a dozen species so far. The current bird to beat is a rose breasted grosbeak teed up in a conifer in almost perfect light….
July 17th, 2009 at 9:01 amI had a pair of those for 2 years in a row, but not this year. Gone are the purple finches. They would come in with the goldfinches. I have flowers and a vegetable garden. I can go sometimes 2 days without seeing a honeybee. Odd times these.
July 17th, 2009 at 10:48 amYou have to be educated to ‘misread’ something and we all know this person is completely uneducated when it comes to anything that helps the American people.
July 17th, 2009 at 11:46 amDon’t call Bachmann dumb. She is deliberately and willfully misrepresenting the bill. Anyone watching closely knows that there is a secret Republican agenda to undermine any meaningful health care reform, in particular a strong public option.
So, Bachmann, in line with this agenda, knowing full well that a certain percentage of the public doesn’t follow legislation closely other than, maybe, the evening news once a day, throws out her seemingly batty statements knowing that planting doubt about Obama and the Democrats is part of her role and responsibility in the party of No.
They like to convince those who are thoughtful that it’s “battiness,” but it’s not. Bachmann is just one of the point persons in a well planned effort. Don’t be naive and think otherwise.
July 17th, 2009 at 12:41 pmI think Representative Bachmann is mentally ill.
I agree that her particular illness is manipulable to further political ends, but I think the best answer to all of these nutjobs maybe to let them slide back into obscurity.
That’s (usually) where they were when some version of the progressive press got all incensed and splashed them around the media and net.
Truth is, the American Public is way more progressive about healthcare than most progressive Democratic lawmakers. Opinion Polls demonstrate that Public Option is fine with them and taxing the rich to pay for it, fine too.
I sometimes think the right way to deal with this nutcase provacateur is to refuse to dignify her comments with a response. Think of the time we could save to explore real solutions to genuine problems if we did not take the bait and try to talk this madwoman off the ledge. Let her jump.
July 17th, 2009 at 2:26 pmstickaforkinus says:
“Except as provided in this paragraph, the individual health insurance issuer offering such coverage does not enroll any individual in such coverage if the first effective date of coverage is on or after the first day” of the year the legislation becomes law.
Shelly appears to be correct in her assesment
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
No, she isnt. Were she to be correct it would be her first time. Did you see the word INDIVIDUALS in there? The group insurances would still be intact. That is the employer based insurances. So say you got a job with your local edison or city. Whatever healthcare they had would sign you to their group insurance therefore when she said
it says whatever health care you have now, it’s going to be gone within five years. So your current health care plan, you’re not going to have in five years.
It was patently false because she is too stupid to read simple English.
July 18th, 2009 at 4:14 amstickaforkinus 87
My GOD you are not only stupid you are brainwashed. Obviously medicare runs on about 2% overhead. Private insurance on about 30%. I know it sounded cool when Rush said it but really your talking point isnt just old and cliched its stupid. The post office was run by the government for decades and was very efficient. I could go on but it most likely would bounce off your cinderblock head.
July 18th, 2009 at 4:17 amstickaforkinus says 92
You are even stupider than I thought. The military is a GOVERNMENT PROGRAM. So was rural electrification. If there is fraud on medicare that is a crime. Are banks inefficient because they get robbed? Try to make sense. Spewing the propaganda you have been instructed to believe is just pathetic
July 18th, 2009 at 4:20 amOutlaw284
You are a moron. I cant believe how STUPID you wingnuts are. IF the place you work goes out of business I am guessing you will GET ANOTHER JOB. IF that job has a healthplan you will enter IT not be forced into any Gov plan. Do you have a single functioning braincell left or have you turned them all over to the screechmonkey that does your thinking for you?
SS has worked for more than 60 years. IT needs an adjustment just like has happened several times since its inception. Medicare will probably also need just such an adjustment. So what? They have BOTH served retired Americans for DECADES that isnt a joke. Before SS half of all seniors died in poverty and today less than 10% do. That is working to me.
July 18th, 2009 at 4:25 amstickaforkinus says: 98
sure but then to you wingnuts being stupid is a badge of honor too
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EugeneDebs says: “My GOD you are…. ”
In the first place, I doubt you have a God other than your own ego and it’s displayed for all to see by your limited vocabulary. ex…stupid, brainwashed,cinderblock head, stupider, moron, wingnuts, functioning braincell, screechmonkey.
These are the only tactics left to those of your persuasion. Unable to understand concepts more complicated than 2+2=4, you resort to slander, reckless demonization of others, intolerance, and impatience. Your arguments fall short of rational thought so you resort to insults.
EugeneDebs says: Obviously medicare runs on about 2% overhead. Private insurance on about 30%.
Is that so? So where do we account for the 20%-25% waste, fraud, and abuse? Medicare doesn’t pay for R&D or new discoveries. Private insurance makes a profit which supports good jobs, funds venture capital. Where there is no reward or expectation of profit, there is no increase in or sustainable wealth. THINGS DIE without incentive. No wealth, no SS, Medicare, Medicaid, nada. A hospital in NE US is suing because they are getting reimbursed only 64%. It’s surprising Medicare doesn’t run only 1% overhead at those low reimbursment rates. Heck, soon they’ll be charging hospitals for their business.
EugeneDebs says: “SS has worked for more than 60 years. IT needs an adjustment just like has happened several times since its inception. Medicare will probably also need just such an adjustment. So what?”
Gee, I wonder what that adjustment could be. Let me guess. Rationing, fewer services, higher taxes. Answer: all 3. The point is, social programs are unsustainable in the end. When the beast can’t carry the burden any longer, it collapses. So now we are going to tax the ‘rich’. Fine, lets take the wealth which funds venture capital. Lets take the wealth which creates jobs. Yeah, that’s the ticket. Lets make everyone poor. Lets destroy the engine which creates wealth.
EugeneDebs says: “sure but then to you wingnuts being stupid is a badge of honor too”
Back at ya.
EugeneDebs says: You are even stupider than I thought. The military is a GOVERNMENT PROGRAM.
I recognize it’s difficult for you to understand and apply context. The military, and VA are run by the military, not by bureaucrats as are most other gov entities. They have discipline. The other intities are run by political winds blowing this way or that and are ripe fields for corruption and cronyism. Don’t even suggest the military functions like SS or USPS.
EugeneDebs says: Before SS half of all seniors died in poverty and today less than 10% do. That is working to me.
And we are about to come full circle. Haven’t heard the CBO warnings lately? UNSUSTAINABLE! We’re broke, busted, done.
July 18th, 2009 at 11:26 amEugeneDebs says: “If there is fraud on medicare that is a crime. Are banks inefficient because they get robbed? Try to make sense.”
I’ll bet even you can’t believe you said that.
July 18th, 2009 at 11:31 amEugeneDebs says:Before SS half of all seniors died in poverty and today less than 10% do. That is working to me.
Upon close examination of your words, you seem to imply that SS has lifted 40% +- out of poverty. Gee, I doubt my aunt agrees. Her SS is $7200/year +- and a good portion of that goes for Medi….Research would probably show that back then (before SS) 30% of everyone died in poverty. That was the period of the ‘dust bowl’, and the ‘great depression’. People are lifted out of poverty by wealth creation.
Finally, I never said Gov doesn’t work. I never said SS, USPS, Medicare do no good. I, like you, acknowledge these entities and social programs have done much good. I said they are not efficient, are unable or unwilling to stop waste and fraud, are not honest, and gov’s social programs will eventually lead to collapse because of Gov (politicians).
Politicians feed on others prosperity. They are bottom feeders all.
I welcome a gov. health program for some but absolutely no confidence they will create one which won’t end in disaster but every confidence they will create one which will kill R&D and new discovery. Gov. could break up the current geographic monopolies but won’t. The bottom feeders are too reliant on payoffs and contributions. They don’t care about us, they care about their cushy jobs.
Your crowd tout stats that show how much more we pay for health than other countries but never acknowledge the fact America subsidizes much of their costs just as we subsidize Europe’s defense and with that, their economies. They only pay drug and medical device companies aprox. half what we do. Other countries tell companies how much they will pay. Therefore, we pay for the profits and R&D expenses which should be shared by all countries but aren’t. Why is this so? Politicians addicted to money and power, DEM and GOP.
I’m done unless you have more.
July 18th, 2009 at 1:30 pmstickaforkinus
What is your point? That I ought to stop pointing out how utterly stupid you are because the other brainwashed wingnuts are stupid too and I have already said so? You are a MORON. That is clear to see. For instance. You said show effieciency. Medicare works efficiently. Fraud is a crime comitted AGAINST MEDICARE YOU MORON. That has nothing to do with efficiency. Are banks inefficient because they get robbed? Just how stupid are you that you cant see that simple point?
More of just how stupid you are. Social programs are unsustainable? Yet we HAVE sustained them for more than 60 years. What is your solution just let people die that have fallen on hard times or have mental challenges or get a bad injury or illness. Not only are you STUPID you arent even human. Europe has sustained a much bigger social program net than the US for at least as long as has Japan. You are stupid. You think just because you say something stupid it will become true.
More STUPID from you. Congressment dont run most social programs either. They are run by other people like the Post office was like the Military was but NONE OF THIS CHANGES THE FACT THE MILITARY IS A GOVERNMENT PROGRAM. Government programs can run well and be good at what they do like the MILITARY YOU MORON.
YOU keep saying unsustainable when it HAS BEEN SUSTAINED WITH ADJUSTMENTS FOR MORE THAN 60 years. That IS SUSTAINED. We could lift the cap on SS. We could make a small increase in the tax it wont run out of money for another 40 years you lying sack of shit.
July 18th, 2009 at 3:52 pmstickaforkinus says:
EugeneDebs says: “If there is fraud on medicare that is a crime. Are banks inefficient because they get robbed? Try to make sense.”
I’ll bet even you can’t believe you said that.
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Why not you MORON? FRAUD IS A CRIME. Just because it blows a hole in your stupid talking point doesnt mean I regret saying it. Dont you just get embarassed at how stupid, clueless and brainwashed you are? Go after the fraud that isnt a problem inherent in the Medicare program that is people doing things that are illegal. What part of this is too complicated for your limited intellect?
July 18th, 2009 at 3:55 pmDid you really pull that 30% figure directly out of your ass and say probably….
http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:VPUX_5X_paUJ:stabenow.senate.gov/socialsecurity/dpcwom.pdf+before+SS+half+of+all+seniors+died+in+poverty&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
Without Social Security, about 49 percent of the nation’s elderly, and over 50 percent (52.4 percent) of female seniors, would be in poverty. (U.S. Census Bu-reau, “Poverty Status of People
Whatever your aunt thinks the stats are what they are and the poverty level is what it is. If you want to argue we should turn SS into a real pension program fine. Do so. Maybe I could be convinced. I am not IN SS and have a real pension.
Yes yes. You keep repeating the talking point that they are unsustainable except they have BEEN sustained and ARE sustained in Europe and Japan at higher levels than here. What is YOUR solution. Economic Darwinism? I got mine get your or go die quietly and dont bother me with your suffering? That isnt even being a human being.
Yes you see a disaster and its so scary and all the other things you have been TOLD to think. Except the rest of the industrial world has a national healthcare plan and has had since right after WW2 and YES they pay less Your next talking point is outright ludicrous. FIRST who are we protecting Europe and Japan FROM? Russia? On a good day they bake bread. China? With no Navy or Air Force to land an invasion force more than 50 miles from their shore? The guys who got their butts kicked by Vietnam? Please. We keep our military all over the world for OUR purposes we arent protecting ANYBODY and havent been since WW2. The R&D canard is so cute look up Taxol. A whole lot of our economy is public cost turned to private profit. THAT is why we pay so much for the military NOT to protect the world but to do the R&D for our high tech industries. Who do you think did the work to create e the PC? The internet? The satellite technology that is the basis of our telecommunication system. In the same way much of the R&D of new drugs is done by the NIH. Like Taxol and GIVEN to the Pharmacuetical industry already one of the most profitable in American and which pays out more in advertising than they do R&D. Also Europe and Japan do invent and create drugs the idea the dont is ludicrous
Flutoprazepam invented in Japan.
Effient, Japan
In fact to keep their patent right most drugs invented in one country are not sold in other large market countries
http://www.entrepreneur.com/tradejournals/article/162787244.html
This paper examines the influences of market structure, firm, and product characteristics on the launch of new drugs in the largest pharmaceutical markets, the G7 nations. Despite the incentives to amortize large and sunk development costs over many markets, only one-third of the prescription pharmaceuticals sold in one of these countries (the United States, Japan, Germany, France, Italy, the United Kingdom, and Canada) are also marketed in the other six. Economic theory suggests that entry is a function of market size, the level of competition, and the fixed costs associated with product launch. Research in strategic management suggests that firms are heterogeneous: some are better suited to a particular market than others. Joint testing of economic and strategic hypotheses is rare, largely because it requires a setting with a clear set of potential entrants and separate markets. Disentangling these various effects is an empirical challenge, but one for which this setting is ideal. An identical product is launched (or not launched) in different markets, yielding three sources of variance to exploit: variation across countries, variation across therapeutic classes, and changes over time.
The United States is the origin of over a quarter of all drugs, and these products reach an average of about nine markets. Though many drugs are invented in Japan, they are launched in fewer foreign markets
So did you get that? Just over a quarter of all drugs are invented in the US not MOST DRUGS so we are subsidizing the world. I am sure that sounded good when Rush said it but its BS.
You were done long ago. All you had at ANY time were the talking points that some hateradio screechmonkey told you to think or told whoever posted it on some rightwing webite to think. Ya got nothin. Stale talking points being the same as nothing
July 18th, 2009 at 4:27 pmEugeneDebs says: “Medicare works efficiently. Fraud is a crime comitted AGAINST MEDICARE YOU MORON. That has nothing to do with efficiency. Are banks inefficient because they get robbed? Just how stupid are you that you cant see that simple point?”
At least I’m smart enough to know that we pay taxes to fund medicare at a higher rate than would be necessary if it were not for the fraud which THAT PROGRAM ALLOWS! An accountant would charge the fraud and abuse to THE COST OF MEDICARE . If Medicare would change the methods of enrollment, methods of reimbursement, more stringent rules for who submits claims for payment and a decent method to verify claims, it could decrease waste and fraud. What is so hard for you to understand? Who would you charge it to, USPS? Who’s fault is it?
Yes, banks are inefficient BECAUSE or if THEY GET ROBBED. Hell, lets just open the vault doors to the public. It won’t be the banks fault if they get robbed is your attitude. Is a bank not responsible for their own security? If they get robbed, is it not their fault. It’s certainly not mine. Efficiency says a “ounce of prevention is worth an pound of cure”.
EugeneDebs says: “You keep repeating the talking point that they are unsustainable except they have BEEN sustained ”
Typical lib bait and switch. The argument is not that they “have been”.
The CBO just testified that our current level of taxation and expenditures and level of mandated spending is U N S U S T A I N A B L E . Where have you got your head? There is a point where the level of growth in wealth won’t support more burden. We’ve reached that point and are jumping over the cliff.
Europe, Canada, Australia, US, Japan recognize each’s patents. Your patent argument is ludicrous. Durg companies spend on average a little over one billion to bring a drug onto the market. I’m confident they’ll market it wherever they can make a dime. A drug discovered in Japan? Although Flutoprazepam was invented in Japan, I am unable to determine if the Japanese gov. had a role. Some argument, bringing up TWO world shattering examples (not). How many marketable drugs has the National Cancer Institute invented? Maybe 1.
It’s a lie when you imply that the gov. does most or even a lot of the R&D for new drugs. But that’s the lib way.
To believe Russia or China is not a threat is the most assinine thing you’ve written. Tell that to Georgia. Tell that to Taiwan. I’m sure Japan is sleeping well with N. Korea firing missiles over their head and is supported by China. Russia financing Iran and other Arab nations who are infiltrating into Turkey, Pakis…, India, etc, etc, etc. You say there is no threat. What and who do you think is restraining the spread of Russian and Chinese influence toward Europe?
EugeneDebs says: “So did you get that? Just over a quarter of all drugs are invented in the US not MOST DRUGS so we are subsidizing the world.
Were you born that dense? What does where they are invented have to do with how much someone pays?
EugeneDebs says: “You were done long ago. All you had at ANY time were the talking points that some hateradio screechmonkey told you to think or told whoever posted it on some rightwing webite to think. Ya got nothin. Stale talking points being the same as nothing”
As of yet, you’ve not rationally disproved or discounted my ‘talking points’ though I’ve pretty much unravelled your off point, irrational points.
EugeneDebs says: The United States is the origin of over a quarter of all drugs, and these products reach an average of about nine markets. Though many drugs are invented in Japan, they are launched in fewer foreign markets.
What has this to do with ANYTHING????? India is becomming the Drug capital of the world. Do they sell only in India? Do we not honor patents from India?
Your only argument is ‘hateradio, screechmonkey, stale talking points”. Can a talking point not be truth?
EugeneDebs says: “Yes you see a disaster and its so scary and all the other things you have been TOLD to think”
This is one comment you probably didn’t cut and paste because it is so stupid. It has to be your own. I hope noone TOLD you to think it.
EugeneDebs says: “We could lift the cap on SS. We could make a small increase in the tax it wont run out of money for another 40 years you lying sack of shit.”
I think I already revealed what your ‘adjustments’ would be. Why do you think Obama is in such a big hurry to ‘reform’? He knows and has said the economy is collapsing under the burden of DEBT, TAXES, WASTE, FRAUD, ABUSE, GOV. SPENDING. Your solution, more taxes, more spending. He wants the healthcare before the collapse.
EugeneDebs says: ” you lying sack of shit.”.
Thanks for verifying my description of the last ditch tactics of the mentally impaired.
July 18th, 2009 at 10:45 pmEugeneDebs says:More of just how stupid you are. Social programs are unsustainable? Yet we HAVE sustained them for more than 60 years. What is your solution just let people die that have fallen on hard times or have mental challenges or get a bad injury or illness. Not only are you STUPID you arent even human. Europe has sustained a much bigger social program net than the US for at least as long as has Japan. You are stupid. You think just because you say something stupid it will become true.
You really are unstable, aren’t you? The % of the budget necessary to pay for these things has steadily encreased over the years. The % is encreasing. Understand? Unsustainable!
July 18th, 2009 at 10:58 pmEugeneDebs
July 18th, 2009 at 11:12 pmRussia and China are in a frenzied race for enfluence and control in Africa, S. America, Arab nations, Korean penninsula, Indonesia, and European border countries. You should watch the news sometime.
EugeneDebs says: “What is your solution just let people die that have fallen on hard times or have mental challenges or get a bad injury or illness. Not only are you STUPID you arent even human”
You must have missed my comment in post # 127. “I welcome a gov. health program for some ” but I understand high scores on reading comprehension in libs is asking too much.
(edit for above post:enfluence to influence)
Are you done?
July 18th, 2009 at 11:28 pmI guess everyone has abandoned this topic. I’m not getting any more down votes.
July 18th, 2009 at 11:31 pmAnyone who would wants Socialized medicine are COMPLETE IDIOTS.
July 20th, 2009 at 10:48 pmIf you do not have health Insurance under the Barry plan you will be fined. This plan will cover illegal aliens, however, if they choose not to have health insurance they will not have to pay the fine. Explain your way out of this one you liberal nuts. The whole point of passing Barry’s healthcare agenda is so the Government can control you. Liberals want people to think they are so “compassionate” in wanting everyone to have healthcare, meanwhile, they want to pick and choose who they believe deserves to live and who should die. This is the real agenda of overhauling healthcare.