You must have missed my comment in post # 127. “I welcome a gov. health program for some ” but I understand high scores on reading comprehension in libs is asking too much.
(edit for above post:enfluence to influence)

Are you done?

You really are unstable, aren’t you? The % of the budget necessary to pay for these things has steadily encreased over the years. The % is encreasing. Understand? Unsustainable!

At least I’m smart enough to know that we pay taxes to fund medicare at a higher rate than would be necessary if it were not for the fraud which THAT PROGRAM ALLOWS! An accountant would charge the fraud and abuse to THE COST OF MEDICARE . If Medicare would change the methods of enrollment, methods of reimbursement, more stringent rules for who submits claims for payment and a decent method to verify claims, it could decrease waste and fraud. What is so hard for you to understand? Who would you charge it to, USPS? Who’s fault is it?
Yes, banks are inefficient BECAUSE or if THEY GET ROBBED. Hell, lets just open the vault doors to the public. It won’t be the banks fault if they get robbed is your attitude. Is a bank not responsible for their own security? If they get robbed, is it not their fault. It’s certainly not mine. Efficiency says a “ounce of prevention is worth an pound of cure”.

EugeneDebs says: “You keep repeating the talking point that they are unsustainable except they have BEEN sustained ”

Typical lib bait and switch. The argument is not that they “have been”.
The CBO just testified that our current level of taxation and expenditures and level of mandated spending is U N S U S T A I N A B L E . Where have you got your head? There is a point where the level of growth in wealth won’t support more burden. We’ve reached that point and are jumping over the cliff.

Europe, Canada, Australia, US, Japan recognize each’s patents. Your patent argument is ludicrous. Durg companies spend on average a little over one billion to bring a drug onto the market. I’m confident they’ll market it wherever they can make a dime. A drug discovered in Japan? Although Flutoprazepam was invented in Japan, I am unable to determine if the Japanese gov. had a role. Some argument, bringing up TWO world shattering examples (not). How many marketable drugs has the National Cancer Institute invented? Maybe 1.
It’s a lie when you imply that the gov. does most or even a lot of the R&D for new drugs. But that’s the lib way.

To believe Russia or China is not a threat is the most assinine thing you’ve written. Tell that to Georgia. Tell that to Taiwan. I’m sure Japan is sleeping well with N. Korea firing missiles over their head and is supported by China. Russia financing Iran and other Arab nations who are infiltrating into Turkey, Pakis…, India, etc, etc, etc. You say there is no threat. What and who do you think is restraining the spread of Russian and Chinese influence toward Europe?

EugeneDebs says: “So did you get that? Just over a quarter of all drugs are invented in the US not MOST DRUGS so we are subsidizing the world.

Were you born that dense? What does where they are invented have to do with how much someone pays?

EugeneDebs says: “You were done long ago. All you had at ANY time were the talking points that some hateradio screechmonkey told you to think or told whoever posted it on some rightwing webite to think. Ya got nothin. Stale talking points being the same as nothing”

As of yet, you’ve not rationally disproved or discounted my ‘talking points’ though I’ve pretty much unravelled your off point, irrational points.

EugeneDebs says: The United States is the origin of over a quarter of all drugs, and these products reach an average of about nine markets. Though many drugs are invented in Japan, they are launched in fewer foreign markets.

What has this to do with ANYTHING????? India is becomming the Drug capital of the world. Do they sell only in India? Do we not honor patents from India?
Your only argument is ‘hateradio, screechmonkey, stale talking points”. Can a talking point not be truth?

EugeneDebs says: “Yes you see a disaster and its so scary and all the other things you have been TOLD to think”

This is one comment you probably didn’t cut and paste because it is so stupid. It has to be your own. I hope noone TOLD you to think it.

EugeneDebs says: “We could lift the cap on SS. We could make a small increase in the tax it wont run out of money for another 40 years you lying sack of shit.”

I think I already revealed what your ‘adjustments’ would be. Why do you think Obama is in such a big hurry to ‘reform’? He knows and has said the economy is collapsing under the burden of DEBT, TAXES, WASTE, FRAUD, ABUSE, GOV. SPENDING. Your solution, more taxes, more spending. He wants the healthcare before the collapse.

EugeneDebs says: ” you lying sack of shit.”.

Thanks for verifying my description of the last ditch tactics of the mentally impaired.

Without Social Security, about 49 percent of the nation’s elderly, and over 50 percent (52.4 percent) of female seniors, would be in poverty. (U.S. Census Bu-reau, “Poverty Status of People

Whatever your aunt thinks the stats are what they are and the poverty level is what it is. If you want to argue we should turn SS into a real pension program fine. Do so. Maybe I could be convinced. I am not IN SS and have a real pension.

Yes yes. You keep repeating the talking point that they are unsustainable except they have BEEN sustained and ARE sustained in Europe and Japan at higher levels than here. What is YOUR solution. Economic Darwinism? I got mine get your or go die quietly and dont bother me with your suffering? That isnt even being a human being.

Yes you see a disaster and its so scary and all the other things you have been TOLD to think. Except the rest of the industrial world has a national healthcare plan and has had since right after WW2 and YES they pay less Your next talking point is outright ludicrous. FIRST who are we protecting Europe and Japan FROM? Russia? On a good day they bake bread. China? With no Navy or Air Force to land an invasion force more than 50 miles from their shore? The guys who got their butts kicked by Vietnam? Please. We keep our military all over the world for OUR purposes we arent protecting ANYBODY and havent been since WW2. The R&D canard is so cute look up Taxol. A whole lot of our economy is public cost turned to private profit. THAT is why we pay so much for the military NOT to protect the world but to do the R&D for our high tech industries. Who do you think did the work to create e the PC? The internet? The satellite technology that is the basis of our telecommunication system. In the same way much of the R&D of new drugs is done by the NIH. Like Taxol and GIVEN to the Pharmacuetical industry already one of the most profitable in American and which pays out more in advertising than they do R&D. Also Europe and Japan do invent and create drugs the idea the dont is ludicrous

Flutoprazepam invented in Japan.
Effient, Japan

In fact to keep their patent right most drugs invented in one country are not sold in other large market countries

http://www.entrepreneur.com/tradejournals/article/162787244.html

This paper examines the influences of market structure, firm, and product characteristics on the launch of new drugs in the largest pharmaceutical markets, the G7 nations. Despite the incentives to amortize large and sunk development costs over many markets, only one-third of the prescription pharmaceuticals sold in one of these countries (the United States, Japan, Germany, France, Italy, the United Kingdom, and Canada) are also marketed in the other six. Economic theory suggests that entry is a function of market size, the level of competition, and the fixed costs associated with product launch. Research in strategic management suggests that firms are heterogeneous: some are better suited to a particular market than others. Joint testing of economic and strategic hypotheses is rare, largely because it requires a setting with a clear set of potential entrants and separate markets. Disentangling these various effects is an empirical challenge, but one for which this setting is ideal. An identical product is launched (or not launched) in different markets, yielding three sources of variance to exploit: variation across countries, variation across therapeutic classes, and changes over time.

The United States is the origin of over a quarter of all drugs, and these products reach an average of about nine markets. Though many drugs are invented in Japan, they are launched in fewer foreign markets

So did you get that? Just over a quarter of all drugs are invented in the US not MOST DRUGS so we are subsidizing the world. I am sure that sounded good when Rush said it but its BS.

You were done long ago. All you had at ANY time were the talking points that some hateradio screechmonkey told you to think or told whoever posted it on some rightwing webite to think. Ya got nothin. Stale talking points being the same as nothing

EugeneDebs says: “If there is fraud on medicare that is a crime. Are banks inefficient because they get robbed? Try to make sense.”

I’ll bet even you can’t believe you said that.
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Why not you MORON? FRAUD IS A CRIME. Just because it blows a hole in your stupid talking point doesnt mean I regret saying it. Dont you just get embarassed at how stupid, clueless and brainwashed you are? Go after the fraud that isnt a problem inherent in the Medicare program that is people doing things that are illegal. What part of this is too complicated for your limited intellect?

What is your point? That I ought to stop pointing out how utterly stupid you are because the other brainwashed wingnuts are stupid too and I have already said so? You are a MORON. That is clear to see. For instance. You said show effieciency. Medicare works efficiently. Fraud is a crime comitted AGAINST MEDICARE YOU MORON. That has nothing to do with efficiency. Are banks inefficient because they get robbed? Just how stupid are you that you cant see that simple point?

More of just how stupid you are. Social programs are unsustainable? Yet we HAVE sustained them for more than 60 years. What is your solution just let people die that have fallen on hard times or have mental challenges or get a bad injury or illness. Not only are you STUPID you arent even human. Europe has sustained a much bigger social program net than the US for at least as long as has Japan. You are stupid. You think just because you say something stupid it will become true.

More STUPID from you. Congressment dont run most social programs either. They are run by other people like the Post office was like the Military was but NONE OF THIS CHANGES THE FACT THE MILITARY IS A GOVERNMENT PROGRAM. Government programs can run well and be good at what they do like the MILITARY YOU MORON.

YOU keep saying unsustainable when it HAS BEEN SUSTAINED WITH ADJUSTMENTS FOR MORE THAN 60 years. That IS SUSTAINED. We could lift the cap on SS. We could make a small increase in the tax it wont run out of money for another 40 years you lying sack of shit.

Upon close examination of your words, you seem to imply that SS has lifted 40% +- out of poverty. Gee, I doubt my aunt agrees. Her SS is $7200/year +- and a good portion of that goes for Medi….Research would probably show that back then (before SS) 30% of everyone died in poverty. That was the period of the ‘dust bowl’, and the ‘great depression’. People are lifted out of poverty by wealth creation.

Finally, I never said Gov doesn’t work. I never said SS, USPS, Medicare do no good. I, like you, acknowledge these entities and social programs have done much good. I said they are not efficient, are unable or unwilling to stop waste and fraud, are not honest, and gov’s social programs will eventually lead to collapse because of Gov (politicians).
Politicians feed on others prosperity. They are bottom feeders all.

I welcome a gov. health program for some but absolutely no confidence they will create one which won’t end in disaster but every confidence they will create one which will kill R&D and new discovery. Gov. could break up the current geographic monopolies but won’t. The bottom feeders are too reliant on payoffs and contributions. They don’t care about us, they care about their cushy jobs.

Your crowd tout stats that show how much more we pay for health than other countries but never acknowledge the fact America subsidizes much of their costs just as we subsidize Europe’s defense and with that, their economies. They only pay drug and medical device companies aprox. half what we do. Other countries tell companies how much they will pay. Therefore, we pay for the profits and R&D expenses which should be shared by all countries but aren’t. Why is this so? Politicians addicted to money and power, DEM and GOP.

I’m done unless you have more.

I’ll bet even you can’t believe you said that.

These are the only tactics left to those of your persuasion. Unable to understand concepts more complicated than 2+2=4, you resort to slander, reckless demonization of others, intolerance, and impatience. Your arguments fall short of rational thought so you resort to insults.

EugeneDebs says: Obviously medicare runs on about 2% overhead. Private insurance on about 30%.

Is that so? So where do we account for the 20%-25% waste, fraud, and abuse? Medicare doesn’t pay for R&D or new discoveries. Private insurance makes a profit which supports good jobs, funds venture capital. Where there is no reward or expectation of profit, there is no increase in or sustainable wealth. THINGS DIE without incentive. No wealth, no SS, Medicare, Medicaid, nada. A hospital in NE US is suing because they are getting reimbursed only 64%. It’s surprising Medicare doesn’t run only 1% overhead at those low reimbursment rates. Heck, soon they’ll be charging hospitals for their business.

EugeneDebs says: “SS has worked for more than 60 years. IT needs an adjustment just like has happened several times since its inception. Medicare will probably also need just such an adjustment. So what?”

Gee, I wonder what that adjustment could be. Let me guess. Rationing, fewer services, higher taxes. Answer: all 3. The point is, social programs are unsustainable in the end. When the beast can’t carry the burden any longer, it collapses. So now we are going to tax the ‘rich’. Fine, lets take the wealth which funds venture capital. Lets take the wealth which creates jobs. Yeah, that’s the ticket. Lets make everyone poor. Lets destroy the engine which creates wealth.

EugeneDebs says: “sure but then to you wingnuts being stupid is a badge of honor too”

Back at ya.

EugeneDebs says: You are even stupider than I thought. The military is a GOVERNMENT PROGRAM.

I recognize it’s difficult for you to understand and apply context. The military, and VA are run by the military, not by bureaucrats as are most other gov entities. They have discipline. The other intities are run by political winds blowing this way or that and are ripe fields for corruption and cronyism. Don’t even suggest the military functions like SS or USPS.

EugeneDebs says: Before SS half of all seniors died in poverty and today less than 10% do. That is working to me.

And we are about to come full circle. Haven’t heard the CBO warnings lately? UNSUSTAINABLE! We’re broke, busted, done.

sure but then to you wingnuts being stupid is a badge of honor too

You are a moron. I cant believe how STUPID you wingnuts are. IF the place you work goes out of business I am guessing you will GET ANOTHER JOB. IF that job has a healthplan you will enter IT not be forced into any Gov plan. Do you have a single functioning braincell left or have you turned them all over to the screechmonkey that does your thinking for you?

SS has worked for more than 60 years. IT needs an adjustment just like has happened several times since its inception. Medicare will probably also need just such an adjustment. So what? They have BOTH served retired Americans for DECADES that isnt a joke. Before SS half of all seniors died in poverty and today less than 10% do. That is working to me.

You are even stupider than I thought. The military is a GOVERNMENT PROGRAM. So was rural electrification. If there is fraud on medicare that is a crime. Are banks inefficient because they get robbed? Try to make sense. Spewing the propaganda you have been instructed to believe is just pathetic

My GOD you are not only stupid you are brainwashed. Obviously medicare runs on about 2% overhead. Private insurance on about 30%. I know it sounded cool when Rush said it but really your talking point isnt just old and cliched its stupid. The post office was run by the government for decades and was very efficient. I could go on but it most likely would bounce off your cinderblock head.

“Except as provided in this paragraph, the individual health insurance issuer offering such coverage does not enroll any individual in such coverage if the first effective date of coverage is on or after the first day” of the year the legislation becomes law.

Shelly appears to be correct in her assesment
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No, she isnt. Were she to be correct it would be her first time. Did you see the word INDIVIDUALS in there? The group insurances would still be intact. That is the employer based insurances. So say you got a job with your local edison or city. Whatever healthcare they had would sign you to their group insurance therefore when she said

it says whatever health care you have now, it’s going to be gone within five years. So your current health care plan, you’re not going to have in five years.

It was patently false because she is too stupid to read simple English.

I agree that her particular illness is manipulable to further political ends, but I think the best answer to all of these nutjobs maybe to let them slide back into obscurity.

That’s (usually) where they were when some version of the progressive press got all incensed and splashed them around the media and net.

Truth is, the American Public is way more progressive about healthcare than most progressive Democratic lawmakers. Opinion Polls demonstrate that Public Option is fine with them and taxing the rich to pay for it, fine too.

I sometimes think the right way to deal with this nutcase provacateur is to refuse to dignify her comments with a response. Think of the time we could save to explore real solutions to genuine problems if we did not take the bait and try to talk this madwoman off the ledge. Let her jump.

Bachmann either misread the bill or is willfully misrepresenting it.

Don’t call Bachmann dumb. She is deliberately and willfully misrepresenting the bill. Anyone watching closely knows that there is a secret Republican agenda to undermine any meaningful health care reform, in particular a strong public option.
So, Bachmann, in line with this agenda, knowing full well that a certain percentage of the public doesn’t follow legislation closely other than, maybe, the evening news once a day, throws out her seemingly batty statements knowing that planting doubt about Obama and the Democrats is part of her role and responsibility in the party of No.

They like to convince those who are thoughtful that it’s “battiness,” but it’s not. Bachmann is just one of the point persons in a well planned effort. Don’t be naive and think otherwise.