RNC memo: ‘[E]ngage in every activity we can to slow down’ health care.
RNC memo: ‘[E]ngage in every activity we can to slow down’ health care.
After following GOP pollster Frank Luntz’s advice to demonize President Obama’s health care plan by distorting it, many conservatives have recently embraced a new obstructionist tactic: delay any reform measure going through Congress for as long as possible. The Republican National Committee is giving the strategy its official stamp of approval. In a 12-page memo obtained by the Huffington Post, the RNC urges Republicans to “engage in every activity we can to slow down” health care reform:
In particular, the 12-page memo makes the case that it is a Republican priority to slow down the consideration of health care reform before it can become codified.
“The Republican National Committee will engage in every activity we can to slow down this mad rush while promoting sensible alternatives that address health care costs and preserve quality,” the memo affirmatively declares.
The memo also encourages members to organize town halls, write op-eds, and even engage in “street theater” protests outside Democratic events. “And in a bit of irony,” Huffington Post notes, “the memo’s authors encourage readers to frame the president as the one acting out of political motivations.” Indeed, one section of the memo reads, “Yes the party of change is up to the same old political tricks.”
Read more on the right wing’s delay and kill tactics on health care in today’s Progress Report.
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This is repulsive. There are people out there who are dying and all the Repugs want to do is quash ant reform of any kind. This is more than un-American, it is inhumane and treasonist.
July 21st, 2009 at 12:44 pm“We are not the party of NO! NO, we are not! NO, NO, NO!
Can you find evidence that we’re the party of NO? NO!”
Just keep putting the brakes on, GNOPers. See where you sit come November 2010.
PEACE
July 21st, 2009 at 12:46 pmLet’s see how much exposure the networks will give to this. My guess is very little!
Sometimes I get frustrated as to which group I despise the most…right-wing-nuts or the media with their selective reporting.
July 21st, 2009 at 12:48 pmI can’t believe this. This is insane. These Repugs know that we need reform. There are people dying, and they offer no solution, no ideas, no nothing. I will never, NEVER vote Republican again. As a former Independant (I swiched in 2004) I always voted for whom I thought best for the Country and my district, But now, I will never vote for someone with a R next to his or her name. I don’t care if they were going up against Caligulia.
July 21st, 2009 at 12:53 pmThe hope for the GOP is that Obama will be “broken” by trying to push health care reform, and will be unable as president to push any further agenda items through.
July 21st, 2009 at 12:55 pmThe Republican National Committee will engage in every activity we can to slow down this mad rush
I have an idea, resign from your comfortable medical coverage that you get from your position and then get sick
July 21st, 2009 at 12:57 pmtexasrick@3. Even Chuck Tood from MSNBC mentioned that this was a media frenzy. Big Business will quash this at any length. All of the networks are doing their damnest to put a bad spin on this, this is like the run-up to the Iraq War. The bias MSM is giving the Repugs is disgraceful. The People want reform. And damn it, we better get it.
July 21st, 2009 at 12:57 pm“The Republican National Committee will engage in every activity we can to slow down this mad rush while promoting sensible alternatives
– - Like doses of dead baby juice, perhaps?
July 21st, 2009 at 12:59 pm“slow down this mad rush while promoting sensible alternatives that address health care costs and preserve quality”
okay….and exactly HOW are you going to bring down health care costs? and HOW are you going to preserve quality?
They can’t just keep saying that’s what they’re trying to do and never say how they’d do it!
July 21st, 2009 at 1:00 pmSteele isn’t worried about voter backlash from slowing down the move to health care reform. The uninsured people who die in the meantime won’t be voting.
July 21st, 2009 at 1:03 pmGreat…I guess this is the Republican party trying to control our lives again…this time they do not realize that 47 million people and a few million that needs medical attention but is rejected claims by the insurance co’s lives are in their hands…and yet they chose to ignore our lives again.
July 21st, 2009 at 1:04 pmThis is all about bringing the uppity black man who dared occupy the white house down. This is a full court press to stop anything Obama tries to do. These pig repugs in the senate have just put a hold on Sotomayor that will last 4 or 5 days, just to slow the process down. They don’t give a shit about this country, people or anything else, except bringing down the black man who dared to be President.
July 21st, 2009 at 1:08 pmHaven’t you seen the Republican plan? They want to keep health care costs down by keeping those sick uninsured people out of the hospitals.
July 21st, 2009 at 1:09 pmThe Republicans only want us to rush into things if it is their idea. Like war and bailouts and such. Just like we are supposed to be terrified about what this health care stuff is going to cost. If we are blowing up other countries and giving money away to big companies, that’s cool.
If we are trying to save our country, not so cool.
July 21st, 2009 at 1:10 pmRepublicans don’t care if people die.
Republicans don’t care if people go broke.
Republicans just don’t care. At all. About anyone but themselves and their own pocketbooks. Until they need healthcare, and then they become Democrats.
July 21st, 2009 at 1:13 pm.
LIE-CHEAT-STEELE
The “NEW” G(no)P
.
July 21st, 2009 at 1:14 pmI want every Republican Senator and Congressman who is against public healthcare to give up their, the hypocrites. Better yet, they should jest resign, since thy don’t believe in government.
Morons.
July 21st, 2009 at 1:14 pmSlow down, don’t move too fast
July 21st, 2009 at 1:18 pmWe gotta make the opposition last
Kick the problems down the road
Lookin’ for votes and feelin’ goofy
This guy really is crazy.
Really.
July 21st, 2009 at 1:19 pmOne country which has socialized national health care is Iraq. For years Iraq’s socialist health care system was paid for by U.S. taxpayers, many of whom cannot get health care themselves.
July 21st, 2009 at 1:19 pmIt seems odd that the focus of the debate has shifted from the “supermajority” in the Senate to what the Republican game book says about defeating healthcare. Progressives need to pound on 4-6 Senators to get the public option passed thru reconciliation. We have the votes in the House. With Biden we can still get 53-55 votes. Then the Progressives and the Obama adm. can punish those who tried to stop reform thru the Finance and Appropriations Committees. Screw the bipartisianship part of the effort: the stick must be used against Senate Dems who are trying to be Obama’s Co-President.
July 21st, 2009 at 1:19 pmHow can anyone support the repug party. Its obvious that they dont care about most Americans. Their agenda is to try and stop Obama no matter what. Their a fcking disgrace.
July 21st, 2009 at 1:20 pmThe real “rush” is the GOP’s stampede to healthcare lobby money.
What a feeding frenzy!
July 21st, 2009 at 1:21 pmI have called my Republican congressman’s office for the 5th time in two weeks urging him to support health care reform. They’re polite, but I know it will lead nowhere. It’s so discouraging and frustrating.
July 21st, 2009 at 1:22 pmDaddy-O says:
This guy really is crazy.
Really.
He’s got that shiny look in his eyes that makes me nervous. Plus he spouts total nonsense constantly and doesn’t seem to be very well-grounded in reality. Not sure how he got as far as he has.
July 21st, 2009 at 1:23 pmWhat’s the problem? Just give him $100,000 to change his vote.
July 21st, 2009 at 1:24 pmBreaking News: The latest GOP talking point to kill health care:
The government is going to make private coverage illegal.
See for yourself.
http://progressnotcongress.org/?p=2233
July 21st, 2009 at 1:28 pmThank you RNC
I will vote No at every election for everyone of you on the GOP ticket…………
July 21st, 2009 at 1:29 pmWish they had a “Hell NO” button to push !!
joeyramonesmom says:
I have called my Republican congressman’s office for the 5th time in two weeks urging him to support health care reform. They’re polite, but I know it will lead nowhere. It’s so discouraging and frustrating.
I commend your perseverance. My understanding is that each call you make carries the weight of many constituents who may feel just as you do but don’t bother. In other words, it does count and you never know, it could provide the tipping point one way or another. Thank you for bothering.
July 21st, 2009 at 1:30 pmSo now that the cat is out of the bag we can expect the MSM to hold up the 12 page memo and question Repubs about their motives when they come on to spew their talking points right?! Nah, they’ll just let them rant on with their lies and distortions, never calling them on following their playbook for political purposes like ALWAYS! Never a follow up question, never a dissenting view, never citing facts. Just a follow up e-mail kissing their @sses, inviting them back for another “friendly” interview.
July 21st, 2009 at 1:30 pmYes, I heard that the other day, and read that part of the bill. The a$$holes leave out the paragraphs preceeding that section. It does not make private insurance illegal at all. It makes sh!tty, rip off insurance illegal by setting standards for future private insurance policies.
July 21st, 2009 at 1:38 pmProud says:
Speaking for the 260 million Americans who have health insurance, we are doing just fine. A big thank you to the fine Insurance companies that are doing a great job for us Americans that actually work for a living. Obamas socialism will fail, just face it already. In 4 years he can head out with that vile traitor Jimmy Carter and make speeches bashing Israel and the US.
Nice for you, Proud, that you have insurance, and we really appreciate your concern for all of the Americans working hard and not getting any health insurance.
By the way, I still haven’t seen your comment trashing Col Peters for the nasty remarks he made about the American soldier being held by the Taliban.
July 21st, 2009 at 1:40 pmMessage to STEELE:
July 21st, 2009 at 1:42 pmLead, contribute…or get the hell out of the way.
As usual Proud has no idea what he is talking about. Millions of Americans who do have insurance cannot use it, because the deductables are too high on the crappy policies, which are the only ones they can afford.
July 21st, 2009 at 1:44 pmObama: “Let’s have proposals and discuss.”
GOP: “Enough of your Blitzkrieg! This is Waterloo, Sparta, Nagasaki, and Endor moon all rolled into one! Your ruthless Harry Reid must relent!”
“Okay maybe 10 months after Nov 4th, just for a bill to be signed, is too rapid, let alone actually implementing it.
We can delay.”
“Coward! Have you no fortitude or principles? We can’t vote for a weakling.”
July 21st, 2009 at 1:45 pmraynman says:The Republican National Committee will engage in every activity we can to slow down this mad rush
I have an idea, resign from your comfortable medical coverage that you get from your position and then get sick
——————————–
Dems might get reform passed if they’d get rid of their health care plan exemption for themselves and staffs.
By the way, why not slow the rush? They screwed up TARP, stimulus 1 and 2 by rushing.
Traitorous? Come now.
Repubs have offered alternatives but have been shut. “Rohm and Reed have said ’screw’ the Repubs. We’ll do it ourselves.”
July 21st, 2009 at 1:45 pmIn White House discuccion of reform, the Repubs aren’t even invited.
mary lacewing says:
I commend your perseverance. My understanding is that each call you make carries the weight of many constituents who may feel just as you do but don’t bother. In other words, it does count and you never know, it could provide the tipping point one way or another. Thank you for bothering.
I really appreciate your encouragement. I always hang up feeling like I’ve wasted my breath. But based on what you’ve said, I’ll keep trying. I leave my phone number every time and say that I’d be happy to talk to the Congressman or a staffer. Who knows? Maybe if I keep calling, they’ll finally talk to me just to shut me up!
July 21st, 2009 at 1:46 pmWow, you speak for 260 million people? Is that a hive mind? Does it hurt when necessary care is DENIED and someone DIES with their precious insurance (or just go on living sick as a dog)?
July 21st, 2009 at 1:48 pmAllowing the uninsured to die, in order to reduce the excess population is not a very good alternative.
July 21st, 2009 at 1:49 pmThe Republican Party.
America’s speed bump.
or Stone Wall.
July 21st, 2009 at 1:50 pmLet them eat cake.
July 21st, 2009 at 1:54 pmNo work needed on health insurance, nope.
Why’d they ever pave roads, anyway, dirt or gravel is still a road. And weren’t muskets enough for our troops? Easier to make, I say.
July 21st, 2009 at 1:54 pmDid all of you get a letter “signed” by President Obama asking us to call all of our Congressman about supporting the health care reform?
Joeyramonesmom, you are doing exactly what the President wants.
July 21st, 2009 at 1:57 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
I see you are just as stupid as the other troll. Many people have crappy policies because they can’t afford a decent one. They pay the premiums but don’t go to the doctor unless it is a catastrophic illness you dumb sh!t.
If you don’t know what you are talking about, STFU.
July 21st, 2009 at 2:07 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
“The Republican National Committee will engage in every activity we can to slow down this mad rush while promoting sensible alternatives that address health care costs and preserve quality,”
Alright, I’ll bite. What are your “sensible alternatives”?
I’m waiting. (queue crickets chirping)
July 21st, 2009 at 2:08 pmSo the Party of No’s fallback plan is to be the Party of Slo-Mo?
July 21st, 2009 at 2:12 pmStickaforkinyou:
Private insurance carriers ration service worse than Medicare.
July 21st, 2009 at 2:13 pmOh do I now? The things you mentioned in #48 wouldn’t insure one more person, and you would understand that if you weren’t such a dumbass.
July 21st, 2009 at 2:13 pmstickaforkinus says:
shoeless says: As usual Proud has no idea what he is talking about. Millions of Americans who do have insurance cannot use it, because the deductables are too high on the crappy policies, which are the only ones they can afford.
If they can’t pay the deductible, what idiot will pay the premium????
Uhhh, I think they get the care and are sent a bill for the deductible. Really? millions do this? They must be Dems.
You don’t get out much, apparently. Lots of people have insurance for which their employer has paid part or all of the premium — and the employer can only afford to do so because the deductible is so high.
July 21st, 2009 at 2:16 pmThe GOP auto-buggy is going down hill fast, and its brakes are smoking from trying to slow it down. GOP crackup just ahead. GOP RIP.
July 21st, 2009 at 2:21 pmstickaforkinus says:
You’ve got it all wrong. Dems own all 3 branches of gov. Can’t get it done? sorry. Call your Congressman. Tell him to add tort reform. Tell him to drop the exemption from his plan for himself and his staff. Tell him to create a bill which won’t eventually eliminate private coverage. Tell him to create a bill which will guarantee care will not require rationing.
No one is planning on eliminating private coverage, nitwit. And “rationing” is exactly what private insurers do all the time.
July 21st, 2009 at 2:25 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
stickaforkinus says:
Actually, the rest of the industrialized world already does a pretty decent job of insuring its people.
It’s only the United States who can’t seem to wrap its collective head around universal coverage.
Maybe that’s because people like you have yours up your collective something else…
July 21st, 2009 at 2:32 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
Once you or a family develop a “pre-existing condition”, you are literally held hostage to whatever your terms your insurance provider dictates.
Not much “choice” in that, now, is there?
July 21st, 2009 at 2:33 pmRationing?
Really?
You realize that there will always be some waiting for non-essential care, right? That we need to more evenly and effectively distribute our doctors and clinics, right?
’cause which makes more sense?
Rationing on the basis of need (determined by doctors) or rationing on the ability to pay (determined by ???) ?
July 21st, 2009 at 2:36 pmgummble-bee-itch says:
No one is planning on eliminating private coverage, nitwit. And “rationing” is exactly what private insurers do all the time.
So, you’re ok with rationing?
July 21st, 2009 at 2:36 pm#59
Should read “to whatever terms your insurance provider dictates”.
July 21st, 2009 at 2:38 pmOh, so you do understand that your Republican plan won’t insure any more people. But, that isn’t an issue to an inhuman jackass like you. Now you know why the Republican Party is dying. It’s full of pricks like this fu(ker, who don’t give a sh!t about their fellow Americans.
July 21st, 2009 at 2:39 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
stickaforkinus says:Now, I get the choice of what I want rationed, say like dental. I don’t have dental. Get it? Choice. If I want to change plans or insurers to limit or choose what is rationed, I have that choice. Nitwit.
I’m not sure you understand the concept of ‘rationing’ nitwit.
Choosing not to have coverage is not rationing… that’s gambling. You are gambling that it will be cheaper in the long run not to pay for dental insurance and just pay for services.
And it might pay off.
But people should not have to gamble with their health… and when you lose, the truth is that we all do… ’cause guess who ends up paying for the catastrophic care?
The rest of us… that’s the problem with your ‘gambling’ the only ones who win are the insurance companies… both the house and the gambler get ruined by the odds-makers in this scenario.
July 21st, 2009 at 2:43 pmYeah, they 5 years to stop ripping people off, you fool.
Gawd, this is one nasty, ignorant, knucklehead of a troll. Where did the RNC dredge up this piece of crap?
July 21st, 2009 at 2:44 pmstickaforkinus says:Oh, so you do understand that your Republican plan won’t insure any more people. But, that isn’t an issue to an inhuman jackass like you.
You have reading comprehension problems, don’t you. Where did I say that # of insured is not important? And, why don’t you inform me as to what the Republican plan is, jackass.
July 21st, 2009 at 2:45 pmI had an earlier post on this thread regarding how the media may handle the GOP’s attempt to do all in their power to let the Health Care initiative die on the vine. Delay, deny, delay, deny…
I saw Big Stupid Steele (he really is ignorant) on CNN earlier. While Kyra Phillips did a good job trying to pin down the slimy idiot on what HE WOULD DO to fix the problem, no mention was made about the low life methods the GOP is attempting.
On MSNBC Rep Susan Molinari (R-NY) was being interviewed by Andrea Mitchell. Again some soft ball questions allowing the Rep to profess how “more time is needed to study the initiative…code for die on the vine.
I didn’t see the entire interview, but again no mention of the slime ridden attempt to kill the measure
July 21st, 2009 at 2:46 pmIt would be better than rationing by a guy who makes more than $1 billion a year by denying coverage to his costumers, idiot.
July 21st, 2009 at 2:47 pmSo, you’re ok with gov rationing?
No.
‘Govt. employee’ is a big group… there are even some Doctors who are ‘Govt. employee’s’ believe it or not.
That was an amendment in search of a problem.
Insurance Companies DO tell doctors what they can and can not prescribe. So you’re okay with profit driven rationing?
July 21st, 2009 at 2:47 pmPost #56.
I told you, the Republican plan is to tell the uninsured to go fu(k themselves and die. Aren’t you proud.
The Republicans are a bunch of damn monsters.
July 21st, 2009 at 2:51 pmThe root of the health care problem is the employer based system. It limits choice and raises prices.
July 21st, 2009 at 2:59 pmshoeless says:
Yeah, they 5 years to stop ripping people off, you fool.
I’m very happy with my insurance. Actually, I don’t feel my insurer is ripping me off. But after 5 years, they can make no changes. If the do there gone. If they don’t make a profit, there gone. Then I’ll really get rationed.
July 21st, 2009 at 3:00 pmPrivate insurers ration what they offer by price. Rationing is not only how much you get, but what you get. Obama was recently asked a ‘what if’. It was about a 90+ year old who was in need of a proceedure. He suggested that they might be given painkillers instead.
shoeless says: stickaforkinus says:
You have reading comprehension problems, don’t you. Where did I say that # of insured is not important?
Post #56.
—————–
July 21st, 2009 at 3:03 pmThanks for proving my statement.
Alejandro says:The root of the health care problem is the employer based system. It limits choice and raises prices.
Finally, a reasonable argument worthy of debate.
July 21st, 2009 at 3:07 pmThey’re SO desperate.
July 21st, 2009 at 3:08 pm*
Hmm… seems like he was actually saying we should leave these decisions up to doctors and patients who will make them on sound medical science, not feelings… shocking! And she was 100, not 90… not that that makes any difference really. Just another inaccuracy…
July 21st, 2009 at 3:09 pm
Finally, a reasonable argument worthy of debate.
Funny coming from the guy who’s trying to argue that the Government will be handing out pain-pills instead of surgery in the future.
Ready to have a real debate about end of life care issues? Or would you rather be unreasonably alarmist and contrary?
July 21st, 2009 at 3:12 pmshoeless says: I told you, the Republican plan is to tell the uninsured to go fu(k themselves and die. Aren’t you proud.
The Republicans are a bunch of damn monsters.
It’s reassuring you are so informed and know what you’re talking about. A little study would serve you well. You’re a great representative for libs.
July 21st, 2009 at 3:15 pmGood for you, you selfish bastard. People like you make me sick, you evil little twit.
July 21st, 2009 at 3:20 pmYes, that is what you said, and you are proud of yourself. You are a stinking POS.
July 21st, 2009 at 3:23 pmIt’s reassuring you are so informed and know what you’re talking about. A little study would serve you well. You’re a great representative for libs.
‘Tort refom?’ a little study…
What? What else do they got?
July 21st, 2009 at 3:23 pmYou can’t deny it can you, you lowlife? Scumbags like you are a perfect representitive of the rump of the Republican Party, which is all that is remaining of the GOP.
July 21st, 2009 at 3:26 pmbelaccifer lacca says:
Funny coming from the guy who’s trying to argue that the Government will be handing out pain-pills instead of surgery in the future. Ready to have a real debate about end of life care issues? Or would you rather be unreasonably alarmist and contrary?
I like most Repubs (not claiming I am one) want reform. I and they would like some allowance be made for those who deserve but are unable to have insurance. My comment about pain pills was to show Obama, in his own mind, leaves that option on the table. Alejandro’s comment was about employer based health care but I guess we could debate end of life.
What was “unreasonably alarmist and contrary?”
July 21st, 2009 at 3:27 pmWhat was “unreasonably alarmist and contrary?”
This:
Private insurers ration what they offer by price. Rationing is not only how much you get, but what you get. Obama was recently asked a ‘what if’. It was about a 90+ year old who was in need of a proceedure. He suggested that they might be given painkillers instead.
If you want to talk about rationing, employer-based health care vs. Single-payer or universal vs. selective coverage then bring it on…
Of course pain medication is ‘on the table’ when we’re discussing end-of-life care… Obama is saying we need to have that conversation and DECIDE who makes these choices, or they will be made for us… like they are now by private insurance adjusters.
July 21st, 2009 at 3:32 pmGood grief another Bush ball licker who won’t admit he’s a Republican. What are you, besides being a liar?
July 21st, 2009 at 3:34 pmHere’s an op-ed for you, stickaforkinus…
He’s saying we need to tackle these issues and that he’s not the one who should ‘decide.’
Hence the discussion of his grandmother.
July 21st, 2009 at 3:37 pmstickaforkinus doesn’t care about anybody’s grandmother. I bet he would let his own grandmother die before he would let anyone cut into the profits of the insurance companies.
July 21st, 2009 at 3:41 pmbelaccifer lacca says: ‘Tort refom?’ a little study…
There is no consideration for tort reform in Dem health plan. In a plan where costs, prices, pay will be so strictly restrictive, how can a doctor or hospital survive when still having to buy malpractice insurance?
All the countries which have national health care severely restrict malpractice suits and payouts. If you want a national health plan, you’ve got to have tort reform. By the way, I did read the article but is not completely applicable to gov healthcare.
Adequate protection for rural areas are not addressed sufficiently. Small county hospitals will go broke. Many already are.
July 21st, 2009 at 3:44 pm“Mad rush”??? After Repubs did absolutely nothing for 8 years to enhance health care?
And aren’t people sick to death (literally) with Repubs wanting to prevent Americans from having health care?
Please, Repubs, never again refer to yourselves as religious, Christian, or pro-life. You are anti-life, and have no clue about helping people to be well & have better lives.
July 21st, 2009 at 3:48 pmAs usual, Republicans can only talk about tort reform, while ignoring the uninsured, and obscene profits of the insurance companies. What a bunch of one trick ponies.
You Republicans have nothing, and now everyone can see it. You a-holes are going down.
July 21st, 2009 at 3:49 pmAs someone put it, “the audacity of nope.” Otherwise known as money talks, the rest of us can eat shit and die. Otherwise known as simply a great big FCUK YOU from the repugnican party.
May the each and every one have life after death in which they get to experience all the suffering, pain, grief and horror they have inflicted upon Americans and people around the world.
July 21st, 2009 at 3:51 pmThere is no consideration for tort reform in Dem health plan.
Read the link… tort reform does NOT reduce cost.
Tort reform does NOT increase coverage.
All the countries which have national health care severely restrict malpractice suits and payouts. If you want a national health plan, you’ve got to have tort reform. By the way, I did read the article but is not completely applicable to gov healthcare.
So your for single-payer as long as there are restrictions on malpractice suits? Good!
I’d bet that’s a compromise that many would be willing to make.
Interesting that what you are complaining about here is the cost of ‘malpractice insurance’ yet another example of insurance companies making unreasonable profits on the backs of the rest of us… so I take it you’re for reforming the malpractice insurance industry as well? Me too!
July 21st, 2009 at 3:52 pmHe looks like Bullwinkle! Guess he’s gonna pull a rabbit out of his hat.
July 21st, 2009 at 3:57 pmshoeless says:
stickaforkinus says:
I like most Repubs (not claiming I am one)
shoeless says: Good grief another Bush ball licker who won’t admit he’s a Republican. What are you, besides being a liar?
shoeless you are clueless and are still having problems with reading comprehension. I neither claimed or disclaimed I am a Republican. I only referenced them. Liar, where was the lie. Why should I admit that? You won’t admit you’re an idiot.
July 21st, 2009 at 3:57 pmWell, I voted for Kennedy, Carter, Clinton TWICE. Republican, if you say so.
belaccifer lacca says: So your for single-payer as long as there are restrictions on malpractice suits?
No, I’m not for single payer. But if we are going to get it (which we will) , then they had better have tort reform.
July 21st, 2009 at 4:00 pmI forget to mention Lyndon B.
July 21st, 2009 at 4:02 pmstickaforkinus says: No, I’m not for single payer.
But the tort reform is (supposedly) to lower malpractice insurance costs which will lower consumer costs right?
Why do we need to do it indirectly?
If unreasonable malpractice rates are the problem then just nationalize ALL insurance… health, home, car, boat, malpractice, etc.
It’s all about shared risk, right? Why not increase the pool of participants to lower costs, rather than attacking the demand? Your ’supply side’ insurance reform is weird… like all ’supply side’ economics, I guess…
July 21st, 2009 at 4:04 pmGeorgeM says:As someone put it, “the audacity of nope.” Otherwise known as money talks, the rest of us can eat shit and die. Otherwise known as simply a great big FCUK YOU from the repugnican party.
May the each and every one have life after death in which they get to experience all the suffering, pain, grief and horror they have inflicted upon Americans and people around the world.
Libs really are a vile, demonizing, vendictive bunch. Aren’t they shoeless
Just what suffering, pain, grief and horror have they inflicted upon Americans and people around the world?
July 21st, 2009 at 4:10 pmI knew you were a liar as soon as you hedged about being a Republican, and now you confirmed it by telling a huge whopper. It’s not like we haven’t seen this song and dance around here before. Very few of you extremist right-wingers will admit to being a Republican these days. Are you going to deny that you voted for George W. Bush twice?
July 21st, 2009 at 4:12 pmHas anyone seen the “sensible alternatives” that the Republican party is promoting?
July 21st, 2009 at 4:14 pmLiar. We know what you are dtrying to do liar. You want to make us think that a Democrat is totally against health care reform, and totally supportive of the Republicans. You are even dumber than I thought if you think we will buy that stupid lie.
July 21st, 2009 at 4:15 pmJust what suffering, pain, grief and horror have they inflicted upon Americans and people around the world?
Blocked S-Chip and healthcare reform in general for as long as possible. (This continues today, see above)
Supported Ineffective and Illegal Torture of ‘Detainees.’ Including women and children.
Preemptively invaded Iraq on the basis of forged and inflated intelligence without bothering to plan for aftermath.
Shall we go on?
July 21st, 2009 at 4:17 pmbelaccifer lacca says:
stickaforkinus says: No, I’m not for single payer.
belaccifer says:But the tort reform is (supposedly) to lower malpractice insurance costs which will lower consumer costs right?
Why do we need to do it indirectly?
If unreasonable malpractice rates are the problem then just nationalize ALL insurance… health, home, car, boat, malpractice, etc.
That’s what Repubs are afraid of. Where’s the stopping point?
July 21st, 2009 at 4:21 pmWhere will it stop. Will Dodd and Frank stop there? Not a chance and neither will Obama.
For a guy who voted for Kennedy, Johnson, Carter and Clinton you sure do hate liberals. Stop lying. You aren’t fooling anyone.
July 21st, 2009 at 4:22 pmLets give all our property to the government and when something happens they will replace it. Heck yes. Let the gov be the national insurance provider for everyone everything.
July 21st, 2009 at 4:23 pmThat’s what Repubs are afraid of. Where’s the stopping point?
Where will it stop. Will Dodd and Frank stop there? Not a chance and neither will Obama.
You are the one saying that insurance companies are the problem here… that they are making care cost unreasonably high… if the problem is that they cannot provide malpractice coverage that doesn’t drive doctors and clinics out of business (your claim, not mine) then maybe they need to be nationalized.
Why is insurance a for-profit endeavor anyway?
July 21st, 2009 at 4:25 pmUnder the current system, millions go bankrupt and lose all of their property. You don’t care about that, because you are an extremist, right-wing Republican corporatist. Oh yeah, and a liar.
July 21st, 2009 at 4:27 pmLets give all our property to the government and when something happens they will replace it. Heck yes. Let the gov be the national insurance provider for everyone everything.
What ‘property’ do insurance companies own?
This is why I say you are “unreasonably alarmist and contrary?”
Get it?
Where’s the reasoned debate you promised?
July 21st, 2009 at 4:28 pmProfiting from the pain, misery, and death of others is the Republican way.
July 21st, 2009 at 4:28 pmshoeless says:
For a guy who voted for Kennedy, Johnson, Carter and Clinton you sure do hate liberals. Stop lying. You aren’t fooling anyone.
I was a Dem before I realized they’re (encluding Repubs) all scumbags. I even voted Clinton for governor and to this day, glad I did.. I’m still registered as a Dem. I really could care less if you believe it or not. If you think I would lie to placate you, you are a bigger idiot than I thought.
July 21st, 2009 at 4:31 pmYou claim to have voted for Kennedy. That makes you at least 70 years old, which means you have been in the socilaized Medicare program for years. Stop using Medicare, you hypocrite.
July 21st, 2009 at 4:34 pmshoeless says:
belaccifer lacca says:
Why is insurance a for-profit endeavor anyway
The lib braintrust said this.
July 21st, 2009 at 4:34 pmAnd you can’t answer it, can you? What an a$$hole.
July 21st, 2009 at 4:35 pmshoeless says:
You claim to have voted for Kennedy. That makes you at least 70 years old, which means you have been in the socilaized Medicare program for years. Stop using Medicare, you hypocrite.
Don’t. Employer retirement
July 21st, 2009 at 4:36 pmThen why did you vote for Bush twice?
July 21st, 2009 at 4:37 pmWow, yet another lie. Damn, you probably lie when you talk in your sleep.
July 21st, 2009 at 4:39 pmlibs will in the end win. They will stupid us to death.
July 21st, 2009 at 4:39 pmYes, you evil, greedy, selfish, inhuman right-wing Republicans lost. Suck on it chump.
July 21st, 2009 at 4:41 pmWe need to take away ALL their health benefits for 1 year and see how they feel about this issue then.
July 21st, 2009 at 4:44 pmThese have to be the dumbest morons on the face of the earth.
How about we take away health benefits for all Republicans, and see how they like it? We’ll start with stickaforkinus.
July 21st, 2009 at 4:46 pmYou fool. There actually are people who worked decades putting part of their income into retirement programs. They didn’t bop around from job to job when things got a little tough. They didn’t run up ungodly balances on their credit cards. How much of your income are you setting aside for health care. I’ll bet ZERO. You’re waiting for gov to give it to you. You spend your money on CD’s, video games, smart phones, probably cigaretttes, meth, belly button rings, ear piercings, and beer. There are many who deserve help. I’ll wager you’re not one.
July 21st, 2009 at 4:50 pmI’ll wager that you are a lying hypocrite who uses Medicare. We already know that you have lied several times. Why would anyone believe you now?
July 21st, 2009 at 4:54 pmshoeless says: How about we take away health benefits for all Republicans, and see how they like it? We’ll start with stickaforkinus.
Every time you open your mouth, stupid comes out. How bout we take away health benefits for the millions of DEMOCRATIC union workers And Democratic, unionized teachers? They all want gov run health care so bad, lets give it to them.
July 21st, 2009 at 4:55 pmFor a Democrat, you sure hate Democrats. Everytime you open your mouth, you get caught in another lie.
July 21st, 2009 at 4:57 pmLooks like I touched a nerve by suggesting that stickaforkinus lose his health insurance. You don’t like that idea much do you?
July 21st, 2009 at 4:59 pmshoeless says: I’ll wager that you are a lying hypocrite who uses Medicare. We already know that you have lied several times. Why would anyone believe you now?
More stupid from clueless shoeless. If you know I have lied, name them and tell me how you know. Who is WE? Got a mouse in your pocket?
July 21st, 2009 at 4:59 pmAny lib with half a brain has already left the conversation. I’m leaving also. You can stupid yourself to death. I don’t want to watch.
July 21st, 2009 at 5:02 pmI would leave too, if got caught in as many lies as you.
July 21st, 2009 at 5:05 pmWhat about all those who worked for decades putting part of their income into retirement programs only to have it looted by bankers and investors?
Or your company and fund went bankrupt?
Or your morally bankrupt company looted your fund?
What to do with those people?
July 21st, 2009 at 5:16 pmWhy don’t you go back to school and get your GED. It must be tough in life having dropped out of school in the 5th grade.
July 21st, 2009 at 5:20 pmI have three and a half brains…
July 21st, 2009 at 5:22 pmIn what state can one drop out in the 5th grade? Must be one of those conservative hillbilly states…
July 21st, 2009 at 5:25 pmdbadass says:I have three and a half brains
In what state can one drop out in the 5th grade? Must be one of those conservative hillbilly states…
————
Is the brain condition genetic or can we all get more?
Probably no state but I was trying to match the schooling with the exibited intelligence.
July 21st, 2009 at 5:32 pmI think we have a home schooler here folks.
Stop using Medicare you hypocrite.
July 21st, 2009 at 5:35 pmstickaforkinus says:
Did you have a ‘reasonable argument worthy of debate?’
I keep waiting for one…
July 21st, 2009 at 5:35 pmbelaccifer lacca says:There actually are people who worked decades putting part of their income into retirement programs.
What about all those who worked for decades putting part of their income into retirement programs only to have it looted by bankers and investors?
Or your company and fund went bankrupt?
Or your morally bankrupt company looted your fund?
What to do with those people?
Why we help them of course. But for those who risked their money in risky schemes, ‘let them eat cake’.
July 21st, 2009 at 5:36 pmYeah right. You don’t even give a crap about 47 million uninsured Americans. Why would you want to help people who lost their retirement accounts?
July 21st, 2009 at 5:38 pmAll I could get out of him was that he would solve the health care crisis by tort reform, and he is a lifelong Democrat who hates Democrats and loves Republican policy.
July 21st, 2009 at 5:41 pmWhy we help them of course. But for those who risked their money in risky schemes, ‘let them eat cake’.
Well that gets back to my original question… why do we allow people to gamble with health insurance?
Because they aren’t eating cake when they lose… they’re forcing the rest of us to pay more for their care because they begin to use emergency services instead of regular care for all visits.
We’re all eating it under your plan.
July 21st, 2009 at 5:46 pmbelaccifer lacca says:stickaforkinus says:
Did you have a ‘reasonable argument worthy of debate?’
I keep waiting for one…
July 21st, 2009 at 5:50 pm———————————-
If you’ll check back, I said Alehandro’s argument was ( ‘employer based health care’) was worthy of debate. It wasn’t my topic and I didn’t say I had an argument for or against employer based health care. Reading comprehension problems? So, why don’t you start the debate? I’ll let you go first.
You still haven’t told us what your Republicans would do for the 47 million uninsured Americans. You can’t answer that question, because the Republican plan is to ignore them.
July 21st, 2009 at 5:54 pmReading comprehension problems? So, why don’t you start the debate? I’ll let you go first.
Ahh, so when you said ‘Finally a reasonable argument worthy of debate’ you didn’t mean you actually had one… I wondered.
So explain to me how you’re not just being unreasonably alarmist and contrary then? Do you have an argument?
Or are you just opposing things for the sake of opposition like the Republican party that you ‘no really, really don’t, in no way and never have’ belong to?
July 21st, 2009 at 5:55 pmYou can’t get a reasonable argument from a lying hypocrite. All he can do is repeat Republican talking points about tort reform.
July 21st, 2009 at 5:57 pmAlso- I think I’ve advocated and advanced several plans and arguments in this thread stickaforkinus… reading comprehension problems?
Let me help:
1)I’m for UNIVERSAL coverage- it saves money and lives, look at the rest of the industrialized world where they pay less for better care and have better health for it.
2)I believe that single payer is the best way to do this.
3)Given the Republicans unreasonable and knee-jerk hatred of single payer I am willing to compromise and go for something along the lines of the German healthcare model. Again- universal coverage is the goal.
4)What’s your counter proposal?
comprehend?
July 21st, 2009 at 5:59 pmbelaccifer lacca says: Well that gets back to my original question… why do we allow people to gamble with health insurance?
Because they aren’t eating cake when they lose… they’re forcing the rest of us to pay more for their care because they begin to use emergency services instead of regular care for all visits.
July 21st, 2009 at 5:59 pm——————————-
So you’re saying that if they gamble with their own health care and loose, we should be responsible for their care? I didn’t make the rules about giving them emergency care but lets give them basic emergency care if they gambled and lost. That is better than me paying for their first rate care when they gamble and loose which will really drive up costs. I don’t care to be penalized for anothers foolishness.
I don’t care to be penalized for anothers foolishness.
I don’t care to pay for Bush’s foolish misadventure in Iraq. He gambled and lost…
But don’t I have some shared responsibility in that misadventure as an American citizen? Or do we all get a line item veto on Government spending from now on?
You don’t have dental. Are you going to refuse Government assistance if you need emergency dental care? I doubt it… and it would be stupid and vindictive of us not to provide it if it is necessary… but it would be cheaper if you just carried coverage.
Get the concept of ’shared risk’ yet?
July 21st, 2009 at 6:04 pmSo you’re saying that if they gamble with their own health care and loose, we should be responsible for their care?
No- I’m saying that we are responsible for their care. That’s how the system works now.
And emergency services are expensive and often the least efficient way of providing care.
So why do we let people gamble?
July 21st, 2009 at 6:08 pmbelaccifer lacca says:
belaccifer lacca Ahh, so when you said ‘Finally a reasonable argument worthy of debate’ you didn’t mean you actually had one… I wondered.
—————————
You still don’t comprehend what you are saying. Whether I had one or not is not the question. I may have had one or I may not have. I said “t h e – t o p i c – w a s – w o r t h y ” of debate. I’ll say it slow so you can understand.
If you want to debate it, go for it.
July 21st, 2009 at 6:08 pmI’ll say it slow so you can understand.
No, I understand.
I understand a lot of things.
I understand that you have no reasonable proposal and so are being obstinate and ornery.
I understand that you think that young-uns are spending money on iPods instead of healthcare and deserve whatever they get.
I understand that you haven’t comprehended that this is MORE expensive and less effective than actually insuring everyone.
I understand that your self-serving arguments are actually neither and instead are the counter-productive rants of an old and selfish person who doesn’t realize how they are hurting themselves by ‘punishing’ others.
Comprehend my understanding? Or was that too quick for ya?
July 21st, 2009 at 6:15 pmFor all your clarity and slow typing, stickaforkinus I notice that you still have failed to advance an argument other than ‘let them eat cake!’ and have failed to respond to any of mine but you have managed to clarify and parse exactly what you said over an hour ago for several posts… interesting.
July 21st, 2009 at 6:20 pmbelaccifer lacca says:
stickaforkinus says: So you’re saying that if they gamble with their own health care and loose, we should be responsible for their care?
belaccifer lacca:No- I’m saying that we are responsible for their care. That’s how the system works now.
And emergency services are expensive and often the least efficient way of providing care.
So why do we let people gamble?
————————————-
So if someone smokes 5 packs of cigs a day, drinks a gal of whiskey every day, engages in unprotected illicit sex, and spends all his money on these things, we are responsible because that’s how the system works. You pay for that system, I don’t care to. That’s the system the repubs fight against and the libs want more of.
Why do we let them gamble? Why do we let them smoke, why do we let them skate board, why do we let them sky dive, why do we let them squander any of their potential? Why do we let people do anything. We should just heard them into the workhouses, assign them a place to live as well as a job.
July 21st, 2009 at 6:26 pmSo if someone smokes 5 packs of cigs a day, drinks a gal of whiskey every day, engages in unprotected illicit sex, and spends all his money on these things, we are responsible because that’s how the system works. You pay for that system, I don’t care to.
If that person gets ill, goes to the emergency room and can’t afford to pay then we all pay for it. Collectively. Already.
YOU pay for it whether you care to or not. So do I. So does everyone.
Wouldn’t you rather pay LESS by providing that person preventative care and counseling to help them STOP drinking a gallon of whiskey, smoking 5 packs a day and engaging in unprotected sex? Do you get that universal coverage costs LESS yet?
July 21st, 2009 at 6:31 pmbelaccifer lacca says:For all your clarity and slow typing, stickaforkinus I notice that you still have failed to advance an argument other than ‘let them eat cake!’ and have failed to respond to any of mine but you have managed to clarify and parse exactly what you said over an hour ago for several posts… interesting.
July 21st, 2009 at 6:33 pm—————————-
failed to advance an argument for what?
failed to respond to any of what arguments?
I’ve had to repeat and repeatedly clarify. You have failed to understand both what I have said as well as what you have said.
Way to go Proud and stickaforkinus!!!!!
I am also one of the many, many insured Americans! And I have to agree, my fam and I are doing just fine. Never will I say there is no room for reform. Very much the opposite! However, govt run healthcare is NOT the answer! The majority of you seem to think if the govt takes over, everyone (and I do mean everyone) will have the exact same healthcare and it will be just wonderful! That is not the case. Take a good long hard look at every other country in the world with nationalized healthcare. IT DOESN’T WORK!!!! I’ve seen on here more times than I can count that we would rather have people die. Really? You don’t think that’s what will happen with Obama’s plan? Everything will be rationed. You need surgery? Sorry! You’ll have to wait 9 months to a year! The govt is not stupid! They have realized the “baby boomers” are coming of age now and will be a drain on Medicare. (Not by choice or fault, mind you, just reality) This new and “improved” healthcare is nothing but legalized euthanasia that started with Hillary Clinton back in 1993 I believe it was.
July 21st, 2009 at 6:36 pmIf you wish for the govt to control every aspect of your healthcare, so be it. But I don’t! I, like the other 2, work for what I have and don’t believe anyone owes me a thing! I take care of me and mine! Everyone out there has the same options for healthcare I do! If you truly can’t afford healthcare, there is such things as Medicare and Medicaid! Especially with Medicaid, the govt pays the bill. (& before someone really gets mad, I know Medicare is totally different) At least now with Medicaid, you are still free to choose where, when and how!
I thought I was clear… let me try again.
You have failed to argue against universal healthcare except to say that you ‘don’t care to’ pay for it yourself. And that those too poor to afford the treatment they need should ‘eat cake.’
That argument was tried once before you know… I don’t think you’d like the results it achieved for the original proponent.
July 21st, 2009 at 6:36 pmTake a good long hard look at every other country in the world with nationalized healthcare. IT DOESN’T WORK!!!!
Explain the lower costs and higher satisfaction in European countries then.
July 21st, 2009 at 6:48 pmNot to mention the lower infant mortality, the longer lifespans, the higher standard of living, etc.
July 21st, 2009 at 6:54 pmhttp://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/03/27/india.medical.travel/index.html
Before someone mentions all the supposed people who travel from those countries to take advantage of our healthcare system they might read this… are we to conclude that India has the best healthcare system in the world then?
July 21st, 2009 at 6:57 pmExcellent work, belaccifer lacca.
I doubt you’re making a dent in the pinheads, but the rest of us learn from your thoughtful posts.
July 21st, 2009 at 7:18 pmThanks Zooey.
These delaying tactics need to be exposed and vigorously opposed wherever and whenever they are advanced.
After all, lives are literally on the line. (So are costs, quality of life and quality of care but we’ll start with lives…)
July 21st, 2009 at 7:23 pm“Do you get that universal coverage costs LESS yet?”
Asswipe won’t ever ‘get it,’ cuz that’s not the issue. the issue is asswipe doesn’t want ‘his taxes’ helping anybody he deems to be his inferior. Which is anybody brown, black, gay, poor, injured, diseased, or blighted by the institutions that support asswipe’s spurious claims to superiority.
July 21st, 2009 at 7:36 pmhttp://www.esquire.com/the-side/richardson-report/health-care-haters-072109
The response from this mornings Esquire to healthcare ‘haters’
July 21st, 2009 at 7:48 pmstickaforkinus 61
18,000 americans per year DIE from lack of access to healthcare it is ALREADY rationed
July 21st, 2009 at 8:04 pmjaim says
Yeah jaim. I also have healthcare. Very GOOD healthcare. The difference between us is I want my neighbor to have that too. YOU. DONT. CARE. Right now more than 40 million of my nieghbors DONT have that. Right now 18,000 of my nieghbors per year DIE from lack of access to healthcare and I want that to stop. YOU. DONT. CARE.
July 21st, 2009 at 8:06 pmEvery other industrial country in the world HAS a universal helathcare and we pay MORE both per capita and as a percentage of our GDP. We are paying MORE and getting LESS. Also half of all bankrupcies are health related and half more than half of those HAD healthcare when their troubles began. You Ebenezer Scrooge worshippers are selfish and sad.
July 21st, 2009 at 8:09 pm#161
And what do all these issues have in common?…to much govt control! And that is why the healthcare system, the schools inparticular, and the military are failing so miserably!!!
#163
I’m sorry but you just inferred “asswipe” is anti-black, anti-gay, anti-poor, etc. You know nothing. I happen to be just like the one you call “asswipe” and I am none of these things. I have absolutely no problem whatsoever helping anyone (regardless of lifestyle or color). I am way more than willing to help someone less fortunate than I. The problem comes in when my tax dollars are going to help those that a:) don’t pay anything into the system…aka illegals and b:) refuse to do anything to better themselves…aka 3rd generation welfare! I work my ass off to support myself and family and I need no more children to take care of. If you cannot pay for insurance through your employer, do what every other American is doing! LOOK AT YOUR OPTIONS!!!!!! And if you are one of those who WILL NOT work for anything, then too bad! I don’t feel for you at all!
And please everyone, understand this, illegals and 3rd generation welfare are not the only categories that apply!!!!
And to everyone else, I just love how you must call names and try to degrade anyone with an opinion which differs from yours! Really, that’s something my 4 year old is good at! Please grow up a bit!
July 21st, 2009 at 8:09 pmre: 165- here’s what happens when we over-stress our emergency rooms by using them as ’safety nets’ for the uninsured… real emergencies aren’t dealt with either. How’s that for rationing?
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/07/02/national/main4227468.shtml
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/06/13/health/main2923545.shtml?tag=contentMain;contentBody
July 21st, 2009 at 8:10 pmTo the troll: A great healthcare plan can appear colorful and contain loads of text on paper, giving you that comprehensive feel, but the real test of quality comes when you actually need to use it.
July 21st, 2009 at 8:12 pmTranslation from wingnutese for jaim
WWWAAAAHHHHHHHHh I dont want my tax dollars to save the lives of inferior people. WWWWWAAAAHHHHHHHHH let them DIE if they cant pay like I did. WWWWAAAHHHHHHH its mine MINE I SAY.
Fortunatly for the US this isnt YOUR decision. It is a democratic decision and we will just have to drag you selfish Ebenezer Scrooge worshippers along. If you dont like it tough
July 21st, 2009 at 8:14 pmYou will never, and I do mean never, get rid of the problems in ER. People will always and forever use emergency rooms as a “safety net.” But can I remind you, it is illegal for any healthcare facility to turn away a patient in a “true medical emergency” regardless of ability to pay? And I can tell you from 1st hand experiance “true emergencies” are never put on hold to take care of minor illnesses. This is why you may have a 6 hour wait in an inner city er. It’s not because they are sitting around with their thumbs up their asses!
July 21st, 2009 at 8:15 pmjaim @ #168…
When will you realize that we pay MORE for healthcare and receive LESS care than the rest of the industrialized world?
I understand you don’t want to ‘Pay’ for those you consider ‘lazy’… but you pay MORE for their care now and get LESS for your money and YOUR care SUFFERS for it, too.
Get it?
July 21st, 2009 at 8:15 pm2 days ago in another thread I posted “I welcome a gov program for some…” . I’ll find it and repost it. When the gov can prove to me they can greatly eliminate the waste, fraud, and abuse in Midicare, when Congress and their aids are not exempted form any new gov health program, when they put back in the ammendment stating a government employment cannot reject a doctors recomendation for care, when they can guarantee care will not be withheld because of age or cost, when they assure me my private plan will not be squeezed out, when the effectively and meaningfully ‘close’ the border to illegals, then and only then will I negotiate. I don’t even mind paying a little more, I just don’t want to be cheated. When Congress won’t participate, it’s a scam.
July 21st, 2009 at 8:15 pm#174
KUDOS TO YOU!!!!!
July 21st, 2009 at 8:17 pmWhat’s “controlled” by the government in this bill, again? The bill cuts costs, maximizes efficiencies and gives people an OPTION to a public INSURANCE plan. That’s it – an option to put your money into a more efficient payment system.
One thing this bill won’t cover – nationalizing america’s medical system. I must note, however, that Bob Dole, one of the yawping pack against health reform during the Clinton years, is benefiting as we speak from treatment/hospitalization in a government facility.
July 21st, 2009 at 8:18 pmjaim says 72
That is true but irrelevant since they dont have to give you anything but emergency treatment to stabalize you. If you need ongoing treatment you cant afford you DIE. If you need a transplant you cant afford you DIE. Also this is penny wise and pound foolish. We COULD pay a few hundred for tests and maybe 10, or 20 thousand for a surgery to remove a prostate or we could pay the 200,000 to pay for critical care the last two or three months of his life while he DIES. We could pay a few dozen dollars for a test for diabetes and then a few hundred a year for maintenance or we can pay half a million for the last year of a life of someone in a coma from a stroke they had because they didnt KNOW they had diabetes
July 21st, 2009 at 8:20 pmthen and only then will I negotiate.
Hmm, not sure you understand ‘negotiation’ either… you don’t get everything you want before you agree to come to the table.
Your posts are full of right-wing talking points but lack any reasoned objections. Surprising.
You are being cheated now. We all are.
July 21st, 2009 at 8:21 pmWAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!! You must be one of those I’m supporting at this very moment!
And read again, I said I have no problem helping someone less fortunate than me. I just get tired of the mentality in this country…I am owed everything and I shouldn’t have to work for it! That attitude right there is why this country is in the mess it is!
July 21st, 2009 at 8:22 pmstickaforkinus says
You keep talking about fraud as if it were Medicares fault that people are comitting a CRIME against it. I guess its the BANKS fault that they get robbed. Blame the FBI or the police for not catching CRIMINALS not Medicare for not also being POLICE. Medicare works on a margin of two or three percent while private insurances are nearer thirty. It IS efficient. Lets pay for a program to go AFTER medicare frauds and stop pretending it is medicares fault people are STEALING FROM IT
July 21st, 2009 at 8:23 pmThis is why you may have a 6 hour wait in an inner city er. It’s not because they are sitting around with their thumbs up their asses!
I never said they were… I said that the system is stressed precisely because we do not treat minor illnesses in another way. Glad to see you recognize that the six-hour wait is because of inefficient use of our healthcare system. Which is why we need universal coverage.
Get it?
July 21st, 2009 at 8:24 pmjaim says:
174
KUDOS TO YOU!!!!!
<<<<<<<<<<<<,
174 was stupid and didnt contain a cogent argument. The fraud argument is stupid. Do private insurances have an obligation to NOT overrule a doctor why no they dont. If private insurances cannot compete with a public auction they should go the way of the Dodo bird
July 21st, 2009 at 8:25 pm#178
See…we are supposed to give everything you want, then it’s negotiating? I have seen nothing but unreasoned liberal talk from most everyone on here! Not one side is 100% right in this matter, but people have to be willing to budge. And I sure as heck am not seeing that from the liberals right now!
July 21st, 2009 at 8:26 pmThat right there is another problem…private insurance will be wiped out! I never said they should have the right to overrule a dr. Reform should be made, but what is happening will only make it worse! And I do believe that is exactly what stickaforkinus is saying?…
July 21st, 2009 at 8:28 pmjaim says:
No. You dont support me. More likely I put out more in TIPS than you pay in taxes MORON. I am tired of idiots like YOU regurgitating rightwing talking points as if they werent just STUPID. There are a lot of people who NEED help. You arent saying lets do something to seperate those who need help from those who take advantage. You are stupidly saying people taking advantage exist so lets do AWAY with helping and let them ALL DIE those who are lazy along with those who really NEED the help.
July 21st, 2009 at 8:28 pmSee…we are supposed to give everything you want, then it’s negotiating?
Where did I say that?
I will argue strongly for what I believe in because I see it working in the rest of the industrialized world… but I’m not the one who’s saying I will refuse to negotiate or compromise… that’s Michael Steele, the RNC and stickaforkinus.
Not me.
Or Obama, incidently.
July 21st, 2009 at 8:29 pmjaim says:
#178
See…we are supposed to give everything you want, then it’s negotiating? I have seen nothing but unreasoned liberal talk from most everyone on here! Not one side is 100% right in this matter, but people have to be willing to budge. And I sure as heck am not seeing that from the liberals right now!
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Your post is ludicrous. We have already budged a LOT. LIBERALS want a single payer system like most of the civilized world. Instead we have already compromised to offering a public option. YOU are still demanding FURTHER compromise to everything YOU want THEN you will talk.
July 21st, 2009 at 8:30 pmAnd I do believe that is exactly what stickaforkinus is saying?…
It’s hard to say… all I’ve been able to get out of stick is ‘let them eat cake!’
July 21st, 2009 at 8:30 pmExactly EugeneDebs @ 187… see my post @ 145 for my initial compromise idea, jaim.
July 21st, 2009 at 8:32 pmjaim says:
You dont KNOW it will make it worse you just SAY it will make it worse and think your saying it makes it true. Except we have the example of the REST OF THE INDUSTRIAL WORLD that pays less and though we pay the MOST for our healthcare we are 37th on the quality list and I see no reason in the world WE cant do healthcare as well as France, Finnland and Japan.
July 21st, 2009 at 8:33 pmWhen the gov can prove to me they can greatly eliminate the waste, fraud, and abuse in Midicare,
Read the headlines? The feds are consistently nailing fraudsters. The HCA hack who has a $1.7 billion cloud hovering over him is out there doing his Conservatives for “Patients’ Rights” shtick. When neonuts don’t want government to work, they take the gloves off and make sure of it themselves.
when Congress and their aids are not exempted form any new gov health program,
Congress currently exempts 300,000,000 from their its insurance plan. And we’re not even asking for the same access to the military treatment facilities they have.
when they put back in the ammendment stating a government employment (sic) cannot reject a doctors recomendation for care, when they can guarantee care will not be withheld because of age or cost, when they assure me my private plan will not be squeezed out,
Any proof existing government insurance programs do any of the aforementioned to give you that level of concern?
when the effectively and meaningfully ‘close’ the border to illegals,
The borders can never ‘close’. Employers who hire on the cheap can stop giving out meal tickets, however.
then and only then will I negotiate.
How could you possibly come to the table when you have nothing but recycled talking points and delusions of grandeur?
I don’t even mind paying a little more, I just don’t want to be cheated. When Congress won’t participate, it’s a scam.
With a public option, you won’t be “paying a little more.” Unless you’re one of the wealthy who lobby to refuse returning to even Reagan’s tax schedule, your finances will remain ok, at least as much as this severe recession allows.
July 21st, 2009 at 8:33 pmSoooo…taking care of emergencies first is an “ineffeciant use of our healthcare system?” There are other options rather than an emergency room. If you choose to go to a busy er for a minor illness/injury and you wait 6 hours, then thats on you. It’s your choice. There are such things as dr’s offices and urgent cares.
July 21st, 2009 at 8:37 pmjaim says:
Yes there is a more efficient way. Treat them BEFORE they become emergencies by giving access to healthcare to poor people
July 21st, 2009 at 8:39 pmjaim says:
WAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!! You must be one of those I’m supporting at this very moment!
You couldn’t possibly have the level of output to support anyone’s need for healthcare/insurance at the current cost. You have a few bucks to pool to cover some uninsured’s visit to the emergency room, but the system doesn’t think you have a shot in hell to keep up with ‘em. “Ha, that guy thinks he can best my invoices with his wittle 40-hr work week!”
July 21st, 2009 at 8:40 pmThere are other options rather than an emergency room.
For those who cannot afford Healthcare there are no other options… that’s the inefficiency. We’re clogging the emergency rooms with non-emergencies because we don’t cover everyone… now do you get it?
July 21st, 2009 at 8:43 pmEugeneDebs says:You keep talking about fraud as if it were Medicares fault that people are comitting a CRIME against it. I guess its the BANKS fault that they get robbed. Blame the FBI or the police for not catching CRIMINALS not Medicare for not also being POLICE. Medicare works on a margin of two or three percent while private insurances are nearer thirty. It IS efficient. Lets pay for a program to go AFTER medicare frauds and stop pretending it is medicares fault people are STEALING FROM IT
July 21st, 2009 at 8:45 pm——————————-
Yes, I’m afraid it is the banks fault if they get robbed. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Some bankrobbers are not criminals until they rob the bank. :-) I guess the FBI should catch them before they become criminals?
If medicare were efficient, they would have better safeguards. Efficient means nearer a dollar of care for a dollar. With Medicare it’s more like $1.30 for a dollar of care.
#191
I can assure you the govt does reject a dr’s recommendation for care. I see it on a daily basis. Here is just one example…a patient who is put into the hospital for overnight observation (not actually admitted) will have to pay out-of-pocket for respiratory inhalers. Medicare will not reimburse for these unless you are actually admitted into the hospital. So many (and I do mean a majority) of my patients go without their meds the first day because of lack of reimbursment.
July 21st, 2009 at 8:46 pmSo yes, to answer your question, it does happen and it does happen daily. The govt can refuse any dr’s recommendation it likes!
So many (and I do mean a majority) of my patients go without their meds the first day because of lack of reimbursment.
Huh.
Wouldn’t it be great if everyone were covered in some way and this were not an issue?
Like in the rest of the industrialized world…
July 21st, 2009 at 8:47 pmSoooo…taking care of emergencies first is an “ineffeciant use of our healthcare system?” There are other options rather than an emergency room. If you choose to go to a busy er for a minor illness/injury and you wait 6 hours, then thats on you. It’s your choice. There are such things as dr’s offices and urgent cares.
A hypothetical scenario for the ages – claim that individuals en mass abuse the emergency room to make it sit well in your own mind that no reform is needed.
July 21st, 2009 at 8:48 pmAn ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure
huh.
So you get the concept of ‘preventative medicine’ but are still opposed to the savings of a Universal healthcare system like the REST OF THE INDUSTRIALIZED WORLD ALREADY HAS?
Wow.
July 21st, 2009 at 8:49 pm#191
I can assure you the govt does reject a dr’s recommendation for care. I see it on a daily basis. Here is just one example…a patient who is put into the hospital for overnight observation (not actually admitted) will have to pay out-of-pocket for respiratory inhalers. Medicare will not reimburse for these unless you are actually admitted into the hospital. So many (and I do mean a majority) of my patients go without their meds the first day because of lack of reimbursment.
So yes, to answer your question, it does happen and it does happen daily. The govt can refuse any dr’s recommendation it likes!
It happens daily, ok, so I’m sure you have a link for that, ex. medicare rules. It’s not for me to say any program is perfect, but the private insurers have overleveraged themselves to the extreme on the back of policy holders. And there seems to be no escaping it especially as you get older. I don’t hear that regularly with any of the government programs.
July 21st, 2009 at 8:53 pmbelaccifer lacca says:
For those who cannot afford Healthcare there are no other options… that’s the inefficiency. We’re clogging the emergency rooms with non-emergencies because we don’t cover everyone… now do you get it?
And in many cases we clog emergency rooms with illegal aliens and people who come in looking for emotional attention. I remember a report recently where, (i may be a little mistaken on the exact numbers,) 3 individuals had 2000-3000 visits over a 2 year period.
Did I not hear recent reports and governors in SW US complaining about illegal aliens bankrupting their hospitals? I get some of it. You want me to swollow all of it.
July 21st, 2009 at 8:55 pmNope…still don’t get it! How is there no other option? Most urgent cares are run by a larger hospital. Most larger hospitals except Medicare as reimbursment. Those that do cannot legally turn away any patient who lacks the ability to pay. That my friend…is a federal law!
July 21st, 2009 at 8:56 pmAnd in many cases we clog emergency rooms with illegal aliens and people who come in looking for emotional attention.
Huh.
If only there were some other way to treat those people…
some way that didn’t clog emergency rooms…
like they do in the rest of the indusrtialized world.
July 21st, 2009 at 8:58 pm“An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.” True, but the lobbyists defending the fast food places that pop up on every corner, unsafe working conditions, weakening the Clean Air Act, opposing cigarette taxes (which have been proven to cut smoking) wouldn’t know that.
July 21st, 2009 at 8:58 pmI will certainly look for the website. But I work in a hospital as a registered respiratory therapist and part of my job is knowing medicare guidelines when it comes to my drugs. I have the same speech I use everyday for my medicare patients who have been admitted as OOS. If I don’t explain options and patient complains, its my ass. So yes, I know medicare guidelines quite well.
July 21st, 2009 at 9:00 pmNope…still don’t get it! How is there no other option? Most urgent cares are run by a larger hospital. Most larger hospitals except Medicare as reimbursment. Those that do cannot legally turn away any patient who lacks the ability to pay. That my friend…is a federal law!
I’ve said before, this public OPTION doesn’t require your participation. For people who don’t want to pay for advertising, exorbitant salaries and bloated deductibles, they can put their money in and try it out. It doesn’t really concern you. In your mind, it’s ok for the private insurance system to break the backs of our economy, but all government programs must be perfect.
July 21st, 2009 at 9:05 pm#205
Hmmmm…is it the tax? Or the increased awareness of the dangers? Or just the plain ol’ sucky economy? Don’t think they can prove which of those 3 it really is! And as for the fast food…do ya think the govt has the right to dictate to us what food we will consume now? Think not!!! You feel like a steak tonight and Obama says “nope…you must have a salad for dinner!” Tee hee this is funny!
July 21st, 2009 at 9:06 pmYou libs want gov to take over health care and I understand your arguments but there are other arguments to consider. Why doesn’t gov establish laws to make the insurance companies more competitive? How about breaking the geographic and coverage offered monopolies? Utility companies are highly regulated and their profits are restricted. Many loose money. Public Service of NM lost so much money, they almost went under several years back. But, no. That would be too easy. Besides, Dems and Repubs get to much money from them to change them. Laws could be made which ‘force’ lower prices, efficiencies, and competition. Wealth is created in this country by private enterprise. Kill private insurance, kill wealth. Kill wealth and you kill jobs. Kill jobs and you kill gov healthcare. Kill it in the form of rationing and inferior care.
July 21st, 2009 at 9:08 pmIf there are areas of medicare too restrictive, hopefully we’ll get around to all that. But for people dumped and/or priced out of private insurance, the program’s a godsend. The private insurers don’t want a public option because that will require them to air out their inefficiencies in order to retain and attract new policy holders. Why should the insurance companies be required to value their policy holders when current conditions enable them to steal premiums and run?
July 21st, 2009 at 9:13 pmNope…again…didn’t say that! I am totally in favor of healthcare reform, just not govt control of healthcare. What I really don’t get, is that all of you seem to think you can just try this out and if ya don’t like it, it will just magically disappear. Well I do have news for you, it won’t work that way! Once the govt gets control over anything, they never let it go and turn the whole thing upside down!
July 21st, 2009 at 9:14 pmAnd furthermore, how dare you say this does not concern me! I am a taxpayer! And just where do you think Mr. Almighty Obama is gonna get the money to support this new system? Sure won’t be from the ones that aren’t paying now! I can assure you of that!!!!
And really? Exorbitant salaries? Just what do you think your great govt officials make? Guarentee it’s much higher than my salary!!!
Megaloptera McWars says:
I’ve said before, this public OPTION doesn’t require your participation
You can say it till your blue in the face but it won’t make it true. Private companies have 5 years to reform and come into government compliance. After that 5 years, they can make NO changes. If they do, those they insure must go into the gov program. They can loose gov certification on a whim with no opportunity to offer corrections to comply. How can a ‘for profit’ complete with gov? It can’t. For 5 years you can keep your private. After that, tough shi**.
July 21st, 2009 at 9:16 pm#209
Good answer! Couldn’t agree more!
July 21st, 2009 at 9:17 pm#205
Hmmmm…is it the tax? Or the increased awareness of the dangers? Or just the plain ol’ sucky economy? Don’t think they can prove which of those 3 it really is! And as for the fast food…do ya think the govt has the right to dictate to us what food we will consume now? Think not!!! You feel like a steak tonight and Obama says “nope…you must have a salad for dinner!” Tee hee this is funny!
Yes, have them smoke to their hearts content, because it keeps your job secure, right?
Dictate what people eat, we don’t. But the industry lulls them, and that adds cost pressures onto the system. Little things like banning trans fat, however, can go a long way.
Your untimely laughter puts your wingnuttiness on full display.
July 21st, 2009 at 9:20 pmReally…all I can say is just look at our VA hospitals! Our veterans receive probably the worst healthcare in the country! Wether you agree with any war or not, this is just prime example of what our govt does when it gets control of healthcare. Not pretty and I don’t want it!
July 21st, 2009 at 9:21 pmOne thing I forget to include in my list of requirements before I negotiate is to eliminate the sections in the bill which pay for street lights, sidewalks, bike paths.
July 21st, 2009 at 9:22 pmI just don’t know how much more control you really want to hand over to our govt. As a matter of fact, you must know nothing about medicine because that is not the majority of my job! You want to cut these industries? Go right ahead and see what happens to the economy! There will be even more hundreds of thousands out of work! Yep! Sounds like a good plan to me!
July 21st, 2009 at 9:24 pmLook at THE REST OF THE INDUSTRIALIZED WORLD…a prime example of healthcare systems that work better than ours!
July 21st, 2009 at 9:27 pmPretty… do want!
Dum Ass Moron…I realize that thanks! And that is exactly what I don’t like. But if this goes through, even more of my dollars are gonna be going to support you! What a great plan!
July 21st, 2009 at 9:28 pmstickaforkinus says:
Your post is ridiculous. What can I say to someone dumb enough to think it is the banks fault they get robbed as if they DONT take precautions against robbery and who thinks efficiency and security are the same thing. You cling desperatly to this non point but its stupid. I notice that for banks you think an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure and yet THAT is the argument we are making about healthcare and you keep missing it.
July 21st, 2009 at 9:28 pmYou can say it till your blue in the face but it won’t make it true. Private companies have 5 years to reform and come into government compliance. After that 5 years, they can make NO changes. If they do, those they insure must go into the gov program. They can loose gov certification on a whim with no opportunity to offer corrections to comply. How can a ‘for profit’ complete with gov? It can’t. For 5 years you can keep your private. After that, tough shi**.
Link, link, link.
The whole point of a public option is to whip private insurers into shape. Poor big bad private insurers, for so long they’ve monopolized themselves against policy holders and now they cry about big bad government. If your stated details are in fact proposed, that would be in line with the goal of whipping private insurers into to shape. And if they go under because they’d rather resist and complain they can’t pay their CEO $19M, their bankruptcy filing will in no way reflect poorly on a public option because the PEOPLE will have made the choice.
July 21st, 2009 at 9:29 pmjaim says:
Nope…still don’t get it! How is there no other option? Most urgent cares are run by a larger hospital. Most larger hospitals except Medicare as reimbursment. Those that do cannot legally turn away any patient who lacks the ability to pay. That my friend…is a federal law!
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<,
YOU are flat out wrong. All hospitals have to do is stabalize you then send you home to die. IF you need chemo and cant afford it you die. If you need a transplant and cant afford it you die.
July 21st, 2009 at 9:31 pmMegaloptera McWars says:
“An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.” True, but the lobbyists defending the fast food places that pop up on every corner, unsafe working conditions, weakening the Clean Air Act, opposing cigarette taxes (which have been proven to cut smoking) wouldn’t know that.
July 21st, 2009 at 9:33 pm———————
There’s just no end to the control you seek. You seek to control individuals in every aspect of life; health, wealth, the kind of car we drive, the kind of house we own. Won’t be long before we’re restricted to 1 child, 1 glass of water and 1 toilet flush per day. The green electric meters will allow everyone living on a street , 2 hours of electricity per day in rotation. We’ll be required to go to bed at twilight and can’t get out of bed till daylight. Sleep more, breath less. Less of that bad CO2 that way. But of course, Congress will exempt themselves.
I just don’t know how much more control you really want to hand over to our govt. As a matter of fact, you must know nothing about medicine because that is not the majority of my job! You want to cut these industries? Go right ahead and see what happens to the economy! There will be even more hundreds of thousands out of work! Yep! Sounds like a good plan to me!
I don’t want to cut those industries cold turkey, but I must note that from starting wars to propping up other industries that depend on human suffering or a segueway to eventual suffering, a growth model dependent on suffering (key word here) is what the GOP has in mind when they have power. And that same suffering comes back to bite them in the ass right when they think they’ve got their permanent majority.
July 21st, 2009 at 9:35 pmstickaforkinus 209
A reasonable post. Government ALSO creates wealth with investment. How much wealth do you think was created by rural electrification? The efficiency of our electric grid and hydroelectric Dams? By the efficient transportation of the highway system and the railroad system that was government subsidized? By the communication system built on taxpayer paid for satellite technology? The PC and internet which were ENTIRELY created by government R&D? OK. I want Americans to STOP dying because they are poor and lack access to healthcare which happens to thousands of Americans per year. I am not afraid of gov healthcare since it works in the entire rest of the industrial world. Private insutance kills people every year by denying needed coverage. Those are FACTS.
July 21st, 2009 at 9:36 pmjaim says:
Nope…again…didn’t say that! I am totally in favor of healthcare reform, just not govt control of healthcare. What I really don’t get, is that all of you seem to think you can just try this out and if ya don’t like it, it will just magically disappear. Well I do have news for you, it won’t work that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
And you are just sure it wont work even though it DOES work in the entire rest of the world. That argument can ALWAYS be made. We would NEVER have gone to the moon if we just said what if we CANT? We would still be a British colony if our founding fathers were as timid as you cons and said what if we lose? That isnt an argument at all its a whine.
July 21st, 2009 at 9:38 pmHere we go with the name calling again…my 4 year old would be proud! I really can’t believe no one on here has even mentioned the govt trying to control abortions now to. Make every hospital do them? There goes your great medical care! A lot of hospitals will no longer be around because a good majority of them are catholic run hospitals
July 21st, 2009 at 9:40 pmjaim says:
VA healthcare goes up and down. It was horrible under Reagan, it got much better under Bush 1 and Clinton then took a nosedive under Bush 2. Again if you want things to work you cant starve them for funding.
July 21st, 2009 at 9:40 pmThere’s just no end to the control you seek. You seek to control individuals in every aspect of life; health, wealth, the kind of car we drive, the kind of house we own. Won’t be long before we’re restricted to 1 child, 1 glass of water and 1 toilet flush per day. The green electric meters will allow everyone living on a street , 2 hours of electricity per day in rotation. We’ll be required to go to bed at twilight and can’t get out of bed till daylight. Sleep more, breath less. Less of that bad CO2 that way. But of course, Congress will exempt themselves.
Gee, I do apologize for wanting clean air. I didn’t know I was limiting the ability of people to choose to breathe smog. No offense meant to Freedom ™.
By the way, I couldn’t possibly limit you to one flush per day. You’re simply too full of shit.
July 21st, 2009 at 9:41 pmjaim says:
There is no REASON gov would have any control. They would PAY. In Canada no doctor calls the government to see if they can do a procedure, nor in France, Finnland, Germany, Japan. That is a non sequitur. It may be your FEAR, what you were TOLD to shiver about but I have seen no evidence anywhere that national healthcare systems are that it would be that way.
July 21st, 2009 at 9:42 pmAgain, the govt has you conned into believing the healthcare is great elsewhere! I have friends in Germany and family in England. None of these people like the system. My uncle has waited 6 months for surgery because his doctor was on vacation and had met his “quota”
July 21st, 2009 at 9:44 pmstickaforkinus says: 229
Your delusional fantasies about how much water we can drink are not arguments they only show how brainwashed you are.
July 21st, 2009 at 9:45 pmThis is true about the VA, you can’t deny funding. However, this is exactly what will happen with govt control of healthcare. Just a prime exaample.
July 21st, 2009 at 9:46 pmjaim says:
Namecalling. Who did you call a dumbass moron? You are a punk. Why do you cons think that only YOU get to insult people then snivel like a little girl that others treat YOU the way you treat them? Hypocrite
July 21st, 2009 at 9:46 pmThen why do populations in other countries come here? Why has it actually happened to people I know? The govt wishes you to believe this is just a better option. It’s simply not! It’s just another aspect of our lives the govt wants to control. They will feed it to you so it sounds good but it will show its ugly head in the end.
July 21st, 2009 at 9:48 pmAgain, the govt has you conned into believing the healthcare is great elsewhere! I have friends in Germany and family in England. None of these people like the system. My uncle has waited 6 months for surgery because his doctor was on vacation and had met his “quota”
Here we go again. Another story that counts for a hypothetical – no empirical data. Yet another reminder – the issue here is squeezing out unnecessary costs – not nationalizing the healthcare system! Private access with optional public payment for all. Bob Dole, however, he’s suffering through that dreaded government-run military health system as we speak. He could have chosen a glorious private hospital, but chose to take the hard way out, I guess. Hope he makes it out alive
*shudder*
July 21st, 2009 at 9:49 pmjaim says:
Again, the govt has you conned into believing the healthcare is great elsewhere! I have friends in Germany and family in England. None of these people like the system. My uncle has waited 6 months for surgery because his doctor was on vacation and had met his “quota”
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<,
Rightwing screechmonkeys have you brainwashed into not thinking at ALL. Everyone I have talked to from Canada LOVE the system. Those I know who have had to use healthcare in Europe have not complained. IF your uncle waited six months then it was elective or at least not emergency surgery so how long would he have had to wait in the US if he was poor and couldnt afford it? IT WOULD NEVER HAPPEN. He would wait forever.
July 21st, 2009 at 9:50 pm#242
July 21st, 2009 at 9:50 pmI called no one a dumb ass moron! That was in response to the one calling everyone else the dumb ass moron! Read the posts prior!
jaim says:
This is true about the VA, you can’t deny funding. However, this is exactly what will happen with govt control of healthcare. Just a prime exaample.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
You CANNOT show this is true. You just WANT to believe it. You just WANT it to be true but wishing wont make it so. Why would Congress that can be voted out screw us on healthcare so important to everyone? Also you cant get past the fact we already pay the MOST for a healthcare system that is rated 37th in quality. There is NO reason to beleive we cannot provide healthcare at least as well as France, Finnland, and Japan.
July 21st, 2009 at 9:51 pm#242
July 21st, 2009 at 9:53 pmAnd really? I make one comment in response to another and I’m called out? But someone who shares your opinions call people a dumb ass moron, a dumb ass d*ouche bag, a F***ing clueless moron, and a kracker? And that’s ok? Who’s the hypocrite?
Because they are exempt from our healthcare. Who cares if they’re voted out…they’re still exempt.
July 21st, 2009 at 9:55 pmjaim says:
Then why do populations in other countries come here? Why has it actually happened to people I know? The govt wishes you to believe this is just a better option. It’s simply not! It’s just another aspect of our lives the govt wants to control. They will feed it to you so it sounds good but it will show its ugly head in the end
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
A rightwing canard. We HAVE great healthcare what WE are talking about is access to it. So if you are rich, sure you cant beat Johns Hopkins but guess what YOU ARENT GOING THERE. I doubt many working people are leaving THEIR healthcare system and coming here. I keep HEARING rightwingers claim this and have seen NO evidence it is true.
July 21st, 2009 at 9:55 pmWhere were all these concerned voices in 2003 when Bushies rammed Medicare Part D through, the bill that explicitly BANNED the government negotiating drug prices? That was quite the corporate giveaway, one that immediately created a million-dollar job for former Rep. Billy Tauzin. Remember that guy? He took off after the bill was signed into law.
July 21st, 2009 at 9:55 pmjaim says:
#242
I called no one a dumb ass moron! That was in response to the one calling everyone else the dumb ass moron! Read the posts prior!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I DID read the post. It isnt that clear but I accept what you say. My mistake.
July 21st, 2009 at 9:56 pmMy uncle just spent 3 months here getting healthcare he could not get in England. Believe what you will, but I’ve seen it
July 21st, 2009 at 9:57 pmjaim says:
#242
And really? I make one comment in response to another and I’m called out? But someone who shares your opinions call people a dumb ass moron, a dumb ass d*ouche bag, a F***ing clueless moron, and a kracker? And that’s ok? Who’s the hypocrite?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
I am not a hypocrite and neither is he. We arent complaining about namecalling. He is rude. I will be too when insulted. Until we start complaining that others are calling names while WE do it that doesnt make us hypocrites. You DO know what the word means right? I accept that you didnt mean it as calling names and just cited other name calling. I didnt get that when reading originally. Nothing I have done makes me a hypocrite and at THIS point I dont see any such action from you either. As long as you are civil I will be.
July 21st, 2009 at 9:59 pmThank You!
July 21st, 2009 at 10:00 pmjaim says:
Because they are exempt from our healthcare. Who cares if they’re voted out…they’re still exempt.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Yes they have GREAT gov healthcare. I think WE should too. As to your uncle then it is an elective procedure and he can afford it NOW take the next logical step and answer THIS how long would he wait for this procedure if he COULDNT AFFORD IT IN THE US. THAT is the crux of the buscuit
July 21st, 2009 at 10:02 pmjaim says:
Then why do populations in other countries come here? Why has it actually happened to people I know? The govt wishes you to believe this is just a better option. It’s simply not! It’s just another aspect of our lives the govt wants to control. They will feed it to you so it sounds good but it will show its ugly head in the end
We have healthcare hubs like Eugene mentioned in Johns Hopkins, but much of any excellence in our healthcare system is enabled through government-funded research. Johns Hopkins is the largest recipient of federal research dollars. For a variety of factors, however, we’re ranked #37 in the world. Treatment is one thing, prevention is another. And we lack greatly on preventative health care.
You keep repeating your “govt. control” babble-headed talking point. The gist of the conversation among rational thinking people is not government control, it’s cost control and choice. We don’t have that in the insurance system. You’re at the mercy of a high-stakes lottery.
July 21st, 2009 at 10:03 pmrepublicans hate facts says:jaim says:
FUNNY, but that ALSO DESCRIBES private INDUSTRY and their LOBBYISTS (which YOU are HAPPY to PROPAGANDIZE FOR).
You’re describing a fatal error in gov and gov healthcare. If private industry and lobbyists are a problem, it’s gov which feeds the lobbyists. Private industry gets away with all gov allows them. You want to give more power to gov with few restrictions to feed lobbyists.
July 21st, 2009 at 10:04 pmjaim says:
My uncle just spent 3 months here getting healthcare he could not get in England. Believe what you will, but I’ve seen it
True or false, you’re applying an incompatible example. Earth to troll, nobody’s proposing nationalizing the health care system. Stop hiding behind what’s right about the system in trying to preserve what’s wrong about it.
July 21st, 2009 at 10:07 pmIt is really stupid to say goverenment feeds lobbyists it is CORPORATIONS AND THE WEALTHY that pay lobbyists. That is a different conversation. The only way for a healthcare delivery system to maximize profits which is the aim of all businesses is to become a healthcare DENIAL system. We need to take the profit motive OUT of healthcare or at the least MAKE private insurers pay for needed care. We need doctors making medical decisions not Insurance agents looking out for their next bonus
July 21st, 2009 at 10:09 pmMegaloptera McWars
Well nobody in POWER is but I think we ought to go to a single payer system and at the very LEAST nationalize the health insurance system
July 21st, 2009 at 10:10 pmYou’re describing a fatal error in gov and gov healthcare. If private industry and lobbyists are a problem, it’s gov which feeds the lobbyists. Private industry gets away with all gov allows them. You want to give more power to gov with few restrictions to feed lobbyists.
In stamping out this problem, I’m sure you’ll have no problem with taxpayer-funded congressional elections. Without it, it will be impossible to stamp out them problem you acknowledge – private industry and lobbyists buying off and providing high maintenance to their congress critters.
July 21st, 2009 at 10:12 pmIf gov doesn’t feed lobbyists, why do they spend so much time in washington with congressmen at the feeding trough?
July 21st, 2009 at 10:12 pmWell nobody in POWER is but I think we ought to go to a single payer system and at the very LEAST nationalize the health insurance system
Nationalized insurance and single-payer, both proposals I’d fully support.
July 21st, 2009 at 10:13 pmstickaforkinus says:
If gov doesn’t feed lobbyists, why do they spend so much time in washington with congressmen at the feeding trough?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
WOW. I cant believe how dumb that is. They feed from the trough of CORPORATIONS and they are in Washington for the same reason highway workers go to roads. ITS WHERE THE WORK IS.
July 21st, 2009 at 10:15 pmWe could also take some lessons from other countries to increase efficiency and cut costs. For instance Canada pays for really smart but poor people to go to the best Medical universities in the world to become top notch specialists and then they are obligated to work so long in the public system.
July 21st, 2009 at 10:17 pmIf gov doesn’t feed lobbyists, why do they spend so much time in washington with congressmen at the feeding trough?
Because lobbyists need to get their client’s money’s worth. Just what do you mean by the govt. “feeding” lobbyists? The bought-off congressman opening office to his corporate benefactors?
July 21st, 2009 at 10:19 pmI’ll let my uncle know you believe that. I am not a clueless moron, I just have different opinions than yours. Except it! That’s what this county is all about! Or used to be? I see that changing very rapidly! Thus, more govt control!
July 21st, 2009 at 10:20 pmrepublicans hate facts says:
——————————————————————————–
jaim says:
#242
And really? I make one comment in response to another and I’m called out? But someone who shares your opinions call people a dumb ass moron, a dumb ass d*ouche bag, a F***ing clueless moron, and a kracker? And that’s ok? Who’s the hypocrite?
But you ARE A CLUELESS MORON, that’s CLEARLY ESTABLISHED.
July 21st, 2009 at 10:20 pm————————–
don’t be too disturbed jaim, this is normal lib tactics. Rude, ventictive, demonizing, intollerant, foul mouthed. Most of the time, their vile comments are sexual in nature. I think it’s a Fraudian psychological defect. Sexually repressed most likely.
correction vendictive. Must have picked up the lib virus.
July 21st, 2009 at 10:21 pmTell your hospital whatever you want. It is a FACT there are private hospitals in Britian. Let me hear what the surgery WAS and I will see if I can google it being done in Britian
July 21st, 2009 at 10:23 pmGood point, Eugene. Earlier you likened the challenge of improving our health system to putting a man on the moon.
Well, we can rise to the challenge the American way by taking pointers of what’s great about other country’s health systems – from the medical schools to the doctors office and operating tables – and avoiding the inefficiencies.
We can put policies in place, starting with insurance, that make our health system great w/o formally nationalizing it. Though in a sense the benefits of nationalization are already enjoyed by those who take the public-funded fruits (research, etc.) and turn it for profit.
The problem right now is no guaranteed return to the average American for all that taxpayer investment.
July 21st, 2009 at 10:28 pmstickaforkinus says:
No lib virus a$$hole. You picked up the con virus. That is you are an ignorant, moronic piece of garbage
July 21st, 2009 at 10:30 pmMegaloptera McWars
Thanks and you are exactly right. Healthcare and big Pharma are another example of what the RIGHT likes to call a free market but what is more accutatly described as public cost, private profit.
July 21st, 2009 at 10:31 pmrepublicans hate facts says:
stickaforkinus says:
don’t be too disturbed jaim, this is normal lib tactics. Rude, ventictive, demonizing, intollerant, foul mouthed. Most of the time, their vile comments are sexual in nature. I think it’s a Fraudian psychological defect. Sexually repressed most likely.
Says the MORON that is DEMONIZING GOVERNMENT and INTOLERANT of the OPINIONS OF OTHERS. What’s VILE is your IGNORANCE, your DISHONESTY and your PROJECTION.
As for the SEXUAL REPRESSED COMMENT, funny how that’s EXACTLY how *YOU* come across. It explains why you are such a P*SSY in how HOW YOU RESPOND. F*KKK off you IGNORANT REPRESSED D*UCHEBAG.
July 21st, 2009 at 10:32 pm————————————-
Those are my points. Can’t you be original? You and other libs rant sexual insults, promote, vote for, attend, and participate in all things gay, trans-sexual but it’s Repubs who are deviant? Typical lib logic.
EugeneDebs says:
stickaforkinus says:
No lib virus a$$hole. You picked up the con virus. That is you are an ignorant,
July 21st, 2009 at 10:35 pm————————
You don’t think it’s a banks fault if they get robbed and you call me ignorant. Brilliant you are.
stickaforkinus says:
More WWWWWAAAAHHHHHHHh from another hypocrite and rude moron who thinks ONLY he ought to be able to insult people or else he will cry the tears of a punk.
July 21st, 2009 at 10:35 pmstickaforkinus says:
Yes I call you ignorant. I do that for a very good reason. Because you are stunningly stupid. You think it is the banks fault that people rob them. Logic obviously is not your strong suit. In fact it is clear that higher brain function will always be beyond your wildest dreams.
July 21st, 2009 at 10:37 pmYou are a walking typing colostomy bag Fork
July 21st, 2009 at 10:39 pmThanks for you support stickaforkinus! I’ve had enough of this and I’m done paying into the system for the night. To all the rest of you…enjoy my tax dollars I just earned for you tonight!
July 21st, 2009 at 10:41 pmrepublicans hate facts says:
stickaforkinus says:
Those are my points. Can’t you be original? You and other libs rant sexual insults, promote, vote for, attend, and participate in all things gay, trans-sexual but it’s Repubs who are deviant? Typical lib logic.
You find calling someone a D*UCHEBAG a *SEXUAL* insult
————————————–
you have a short memory as well. In #285 you said “P*SSY ….. F*KKK off y”
You are fine another example of the lib brain trust. By the way, you screwed up post #205,
July 21st, 2009 at 10:42 pmIn line with the GNOP meme, only threats of government control by our trolls and no ideas to fix the system. They did nothing about health care costs during their time in power. And that Medicare Part D, what a doozy. It’s time for congress to affirm that the GNOP is, in fact, out of power.
Answer me this, trolls: Why did health care costs double under President George W. Bush?
July 21st, 2009 at 10:45 pmIsn’t it funny how every argument against Healthcare always starts out like an urban legend?
“My uncle’s cousins girlfriend once broke her leg in Denmark and it was scary! NATIONAL HEALTHCARE! Boo!”
Where are the studies that show that people spend more or are less satisfied or less healthy under these systems?
‘Cause I got plenty that show the opposite…
July 21st, 2009 at 10:49 pmNo I’m not a p**sy thanks! I’ve just earned enough tax dollars to take care of you tonight! I have clocked out and going home!
July 21st, 2009 at 10:49 pmjaim says:
You didnt do ANYTHING for me you ignorant twerp. I put out more in tips than you will EVER pay in taxes. Your stupid is tired and I am glad to see you go
July 21st, 2009 at 10:53 pmjaim says:
You are a punk jaim. I notice you never coughed up that medical procedure that your uncle COULDNT get in Britain. I am forced to think that is because you are a liar as well as a fool
July 21st, 2009 at 10:55 pmrepublicans hate facts says:
stickaforkinus says:
you have a short memory as well. In #285 you said “P*SSY ….. F*KKK off y”
You are fine another example of the lib brain trust. By the way, you screwed up post #205,
By the way, #205 is NOT MY POST you INCOMPETENT D*UCHE!
July 21st, 2009 at 11:02 pm———————————–
Now I’m really impressed. (gasp) You finally said something intelligent. You’re correct. It wasn’t 205. It was 285, can’t shake that lib virus.
Thanks for you support stickaforkinus! I’ve had enough of this and I’m done paying into the system for the night. To all the rest of you…enjoy my tax dollars I just earned for you tonight!
Tell that to the blue states – paying your way is nothing new!
July 21st, 2009 at 11:02 pmNo I’m not a p**sy thanks! I’ve just earned enough tax dollars to take care of you tonight! I have clocked out and going home!
You’ve clocked out after typing away on a blog, on your employers dime. Your work is hands-on, right? Hardly allows for desk jockying. Since private business has unsurpassed efficiency, you’ll be clearing your desk soon.
July 21st, 2009 at 11:06 pmrepublicans hate facts says:
I’m not sure what’s MORE PATHETIC STUCKINSTUPID. Whether it’s your BELIEF that CATS and D*UCHEBAGS are *SEXUAL* items, or that you’re such a PRINCESS in your B*TCHING and WHINING ABOUT IT!! ROTFL! What a P*SSY!
July 21st, 2009 at 11:13 pm——————————————
Your post for which I stated your rants were sexual, (277) you said “#”P*SSY ….. F*KKK off y” Don’t think they’re sexual comments? lib braintrust
Still thinking about p*ussy? I was right. You are sexually repressed.
<strong>republicans hate facts:Just checking if your awake and giving you a little mental exercise. You need it. Try 277
Megaloptera McWars says:
You’ve clocked out after typing away on a blog, on your employers dime. Your work is hands-on, right? Hardly allows for desk jockying. Since private business has unsurpassed efficiency, you’ll be clearing your desk soon.———————————
A fair and objective comment would have been to ask if he blogged before or after he clocked out. But I realize that fair and objective is very difficult for libs.
unsurpassed efficiency? it’s certainly not surpassed by gov. Lets see there’s gov and private. Yep , unsurpassed. You got it correct.
July 21st, 2009 at 11:42 pmI am trying to get away from the hateful posts, and would just like to ask a few questions about this health care plan. Please try and be civil about things, as I am undecided. I am asking questions of my concerns, so please dont assume I am speaking against it. I know what I like, but of the things I dont, I still need to be “sold”
1) One in Five people in USA are un-insured.. Doesn’t that mean 80% are insured. Do they have to now change their plan or insurance? I fail to see the crisis, and can understand how people may get upset.
2) Health care will cost less Supply/Demand/Cost Simple for economy purposes. Demand will increase because everyone will have access, however supply will stay the same or slowly increase as new doctors, nurses, hospitals and clinics all take time to graduate, build and it takes money, which is short due to the recession. I fail to see how costs go down by simple economics. Car insurance went down when it became mandatory, however care insurance doesnt cover a transmition falling out or a blown head gasket. Health insurance is all about the daily maintenance.
3) The Government will be more fair and less discriminate in applying health care than the private system, and would do a better job
Medicare and medicaid are broken, costing billions of dollars covering anyone who does not have insurance, other great government programs, Social security, great plan but will be gone projected 2019 due to mis-management, Military health care system, two words “Walter Reid”, Farm subsides;to reduce the costs without loss to farmers, mostly being paid to large corperate farms instead of family farms.
Quite frankly I just dont think a bunch of self-centered, self-interest politicians can run anything. Cant even keep it in thier pants. However Japan has a great health care system, and for an example,in one small town, (30,000 people) you may find 5 to 7 hospitals and 10 to 12 health clinics and 2 or 3 dental offices. They live longer that anyone else in the world, however many politicians get busted for corruption charges. any thoughts
July 21st, 2009 at 11:49 pmrepublicans hate facts says:
stickaforkinus says:
Your post for which I stated your rants were sexual, (277) you said “#”P*SSY ….. F*KKK off y” Don’t think they’re sexual comments? lib braintrust
Still thinking about p*ussy? I was right. You are sexually repressed.
sure, you were talking about a cat. That’s why you wrote F*KKK off in the same sentence.
July 21st, 2009 at 11:51 pmI’ve just earned enough tax dollars to take care of you tonight! I have clocked out and going home!
stickaforkinus, I’m not exactly surprised reading comprehension isn’t your forte. When people clock out they don’t lounge around the office typing away on a blog. They get over to their home computer.
unsurpassed efficiency? it’s certainly not surpassed by gov. Lets see there’s gov and private. Yep , unsurpassed. You got it correct.
Suuure. Precisely the reason 50% of republicans and 72% of Americans want the government to whip the private insurers into shape and support a public option.
You’ve proven tonight to offer absolutely nothing, in line with party of no’s continued taking America hostage.
July 21st, 2009 at 11:52 pmjayschmanski says:
July 21st, 2009 at 11:56 pmI am trying to get away from the hateful posts, and would just like to ask a few questions about this health care plan. Please try and be civil about things,
———————————-
You sound sincere but you’ve come to the wrong place for answers. Civil answers here? Not likely. You’ll not find honesty here either. Sorry.
I would please like some one to try.
July 21st, 2009 at 11:59 pmUnder George W. Bush: health care costs doubled and Medicare Part D was signed into law, a corporate giveaway with no thought of cost control.
Where were these “fiscally responsible” loons then?
A bill with no clear cost control measures (Medicare Part D) they didn’t complain then, but the versions of health reform (preferably HELP committee) contain plenty of cost reforms for Medicare/Medicaid and have other recommendations waiting right around the corner to be inserted. And yet the trolls complain.
July 21st, 2009 at 11:59 pmTrue, hard to complain about costs when you blow money. Cost control is a good opinion, but really, I am looking to buy into an Idea. If I tried to sell you a car and just told you how great it was but gave you nothing on the engine, performance, or cost, would you buy my car.
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:04 amjayschmanski
You’re entire post assumes we expect instant gratification out of health reform, when reform is a marathon. Passage is step one. President Obama said himself that all the points on health care will require years of hands-on work to come to life.
When the existing health care system is dependent on granting few people as possible access, expanding services to all will see some initial strains on case loads until we can see more primary care physicians come out of the woodwork. Currently, med students are encouraged to choose higher paying specialties with all the student loan debt on their backs. We’re going to have make sure a good incentive system to lull prospective doctors to their field of interest is a part of reform, if not a part of this bill.
The problem is that I can’t say that everyone has their own ideas for improving the health care system – unfortunately the GOP has no ideas and vehemently prefers the status quo. Less access, more profits, fatter congressional coffers.
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:09 amMegaloptera McWars says:
——————————————————————————–
I’ve just earned enough tax dollars to take care of you tonight! I have clocked out and going home!
stickaforkinus, I’m not exactly surprised reading comprehension isn’t your forte. When people clock out they don’t lounge around the office typing away on a blog. They get over to their home computer.
unsurpassed efficiency? it’s certainly not surpassed by gov. Lets see there’s gov and private. Yep , unsurpassed. You got it correct.
Suuure. Precisely the reason 50% of republicans and 72% of Americans want the government to whip the private insurers into shape and support a public
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:13 am—————————————
He wrote “I clocked out and am going home”. Reading comprehension does not ‘presume things not in evidence.’ The order or time for which the blogging was done is not clear and is not evident. I agree it’s likely he blogged on company time, but I stand by my comment about you being ogjective and I think you underestimate my reading comprehension skills.
Private business is so efficient, your group demonizes them and claim they make exhorbitant profit. They search out every advantage the can get. That sounds very efficient to me. Not you?
I have conservative morals and values with liberal ideas. I believe we should have a government option, like a fixed medicaid/medicare, but it should have a max. income level on it. I dont believe my 50,000 a year should pay for some millionaires health care.
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:16 amkinda like an FDIC for health insurance
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:17 amThen health insurance companies can pay for coverage for people thhey drop.
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:20 amI have conservative morals and values with liberal ideas. I believe we should have a government option, like a fixed medicaid/medicare, but it should have a max. income level on it. I dont believe my 50,000 a year should pay for some millionaires health care.
AGREE!
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:21 amMegaloptera McWars says:
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:22 amthey didn’t complain then, but the versions of health reform (preferably HELP committee) contain plenty of cost reforms for Medicare/Medicaid and have other recommendations waiting right around the corner to be inserted. And yet the trolls complain.
———————————————–
waiting around the corner? What the hell are they waiting for? Maybe that’s what the trolls are waiting for and complaining about. Why shouldn’t they complain?
Day to day coverage covered by Private sectors and most health issues. Government sets a max level for insurance companies, and if costs goes over that amount per year, government will pick up that person. Private companies pay a premium for coverage by the government. Therefore government coverage is determined in a compromise with the private sector.
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:25 am#315
Just fyi to clear the air…I was on the clock. My job was done for the night. Patients taken care of and in bed. I work in a small community hospital. No patients in er tonight. And I guarantee, you come to my hospital, you will have no 6 hour wait in the er thanks!
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:30 amjayschmanski says:
Day to day coverage covered by Private sectors and most health issues. Government sets a max level for insurance companies, and if costs goes over that amount per year, government will pick up that person. Private companies pay a premium for coverage by the government.
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:31 am————————————–
Not too bad but why couldn’t individual find another private insurer rather than loose choice and get forced into gov plan?
President Obama noted recommendations from a panel that congress should take into account. That’s where I’m posting in reference. But as it stands, the bill’s mindfulness of cost control eclipses that of hastily-passed Medicare Part D bill.
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:33 amnot forced, just given an option. also private is about making money, and if you knew someone had cancer and was going to need 100s of thousand to get better, and you had abussiness to run, would you cover that person. Private industry works for profit, the government is suppose to work for morals of the people it represents
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:36 amHealth insurance companies make 100s of millions in profits every year. Premiums paid by those insurance companies for an opt out policy would off set costs of medical expenses. Government expenses would also set the insurance compnies premium. The more they opt out on people the higher the premium.
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:40 amCongressional ratings are in the pits. Why? Justifiably, there is no confidence Congress can get it right. And they won’t.
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:41 amI would also include into law, insurance companies can drop people in the middle of medical issues also, just transfer them to government fail safe. People would still be able to shop around for the cheapist rate.
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:49 amI meant cant drop them, just transfer to government
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:50 amjayschmanski says:
not forced, just given an option. also private is about making money, and if you knew someone had cancer and was going to need 100s of thousand to get better, and you had abussiness to run, would you cover that person. Private industry works for profit, the government is suppose to work for morals of the people it represents
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:05 am——————————
I would be very, very surprised if an employer drops somone who contracts cancer. He would have a employee riot on his hands. I’m unaware that any employer has a questionaire asking if an employee has cancer. The insurer might. The only reason someone might not get coverage is if it was a preexisting condition. That’s not an employer restriction, that’s a insurer restriction.
jayschmanski says:
I have conservative morals and values with liberal ideas.
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:16 am
I’m curious. What do you think “liberal morals” entail?
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:05 amMegaloptera McWars says:
President Obama noted recommendations from a panel that congress should take into account. That’s where I’m posting in reference. But as it stands, the bill’s mindfulness of cost control eclipses that of hastily-passed Medicare Part D bill.—————————-
I would feel much better if there was eclipsing mindfulness of cutting waste and fraud.
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:24 amIt’s a fact. We’ve got to have reform. It’s also a fact we can’t afford it. In this great recession, the stimulus is failing. Now, it’s predicted unemployment will grow into 2011. No employment, no recovery and no tax revenue. Tax the rich? You mean the employers? How will unemployed pay premium? Anyone who thinks reform is going to be deficit neutral, sign, date, and furnish your email. I’ll contact you in a couple years and get you to explain why it wasn’t neutral. This is going to be an absolute disaster, with or without reform.
stickaforkinus says
I keep telling you. Then again what can I expect you are staggeringly stupid. It is the con virus to be as ignorant, stupid, brainwashed and frankly worthless as you are.
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:26 amZooey says:
jayschmanski says:
I have conservative morals and values with liberal ideas.
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:16 am
I’m curious. What do you think “liberal morals” entail?
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:29 am———————————
Excellent question and I can’t wait for the answer from anyone. I won’t say I have morals. Someone might ask me what they are then ‘the fight will be on’.
EugeneDebs says:
stickaforkinus says
I keep telling you.
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:32 am—————————–
Telling me what? I haven’t been keeping up.
must restart slowwwwwwwww
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:41 amjayschmanski says:
Let me help you out since you are obviously VERY uninformed. First STOP getting your news from rightwing screechmonkeys since they are lying to you.
1 here is the crisis. 18,000 people a year die from lack of access to healthcare. Half of all bankrupcies are from medical expenses and more than half of THOSE people had health insurance when their health problems began. Our industries are at a competitive disadvantage because every other industrial country in the world HAS a national healthcare plan and they have a fixed cost in taxes. Private industries have to put up with whatever raise in premiums the insurance companies give them and dont even KNOW what they will be. We pay MORE for healthcare per capita AND as a percentage of our GDP than any country in the world but are 37th on the quality list.
2 supply and demand isnt the relevant issue here. Since EVERYONE needs healthcare. The way it will go down is that there will be less inefficiency as they dont need a bevy of people to decide what can or cant be done or what will or wont be paid for. Doctors make the decisons and they get paid. Medicare has a two to three percent overhead while private insurance have about a thirty percent overhead.
3 Medicare is not broken it needs an adjustment as the demographics have changed. Just like SS has gone through several times and NO SS is not anywhere NEAR going broke by 2019 rather it is good if NOTHING is done til about 2047 and by then we will have given IT another adjustment. VA has had its ups and downs. It was bad under Reagan a joke really. Bush 1 made it better and Clinton had it a very fine system then Bush 2 ran it into the ground again. Conservatives like to play this game where they STARVE a system of its resources then when it stops performing as well as it should they dont say well maybe we should have kept its funding at decent levels NOOOO they say see it doesnt work. Dont be fooled by this BS
Your last anti gov BS is really just stupid. There is no other word for it. Gov has done many thing VERY well. Rural electrification and the highway sytem was the backbone of an infrastructure that made our economy the envy of the world. Our school system also made us the best educated people in the world before the GOP again began to starve the beast by selling the gullible the BS about how government cant do anything right and then instead of taking the blame for hurting what had been a world class educational system envied the world over just began saying see public education doesnt work. IF you fall for these silly propaganda talking points you will NEVER understand what is really going on
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:42 amstickaforkinus says:
I keep telling you.
—————————–
Telling me what? I haven’t been keeping up.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You are too stupid to keep up. We have all seen that. Apparantly too stupid to read too since the answer to your question was in the post. It is the CON virus to be a breathtakingly stupid moron like you CLEARLY are.
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:47 amI have said conservative morals with liberal ideas.
I hate abortion and think it is killing a baby! (morals) but I do not think someone’s opinion or morals should dictate what my wife or daughter should decide, esspecially not the government. Who the hell are they to decide.
I do like homosexuality and think it is wrong, not on religous standards, but on natures standards. Naturally you are only in exsistance to live procreate and die, that does not fit in. However I think think bigots are stupid, and I do have gay friends, who are not always happy with my beliefs, and again, peoples opinion should not matter in anothers life. I am for gay marriage, it is wrong to deny someone something that is given to another based on a charaturistic. Then if it matters, there is the whole religion thing too, but I know we should not hold our own beliefs over others.
I believe in small government, but I also believe we need a strong government to help those who get left behind in the big capitalist game.
I believe no one knows enough to declare Global Warming is evil, however I know we arent doing any good to the planet. We just ended a mini-ice age so naturally the earth would be warming. Carbon in the air does warm the planet, but it also leads to better crop output larger trees, and warming of places we know before were warm.
I could continue for hours and will be happy to do so as long as it is a conversation. I am not really into the “your a poopee head” stuff. I like to use my mind.
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:48 amWell Jay I am VERY liberal. Very far left. I can boil my political philosophy down to two key points. 1 Property doesnt have rights people have rights and in any conflict between the two people must take precedence. 2) I never, NEVER, side with the powerful against the weak.
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:51 amI like the response. The government has done alot of great things and I would not try and take that away. But those programs were alway brought up by a private Transportation had rail industry, electricity had Westinghouse, bell for the telegram and telephone, and eventually the internet. So I am just wondering, would it not be better to edge into things rather than jump in?
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:57 amjayschmanski says:
I have said conservative morals with liberal ideas.
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:48 am
Yes, I understand that, and I thank you for your response.
But you didn’t answer my question. What do you think “liberal values” are?
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:57 amEugeneDebs says:
——————————————————————————–
stickaforkinus says:
Telling me what? I haven’t been keeping up.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You are too stupid to keep up. We have all seen that. Apparantly too stupid to read too since the answer to your question was in the post. It is the CON virus to be a breathtakingly stupid moron like you CLEARLY are.
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:58 am————————————-
I’m smart enough to reference a post when I comment on one.
But I’ll mollify you. Yes, I am stupid and a dummy. Heck, I can’t even read minds. Not going to take the bait tonight.
EugeneDebs says:
Well Jay I am VERY liberal. Very far left. I can boil my political philosophy down to two key points.1 Property doesnt have rights people have rights and in any conflict between the two people must take precedence. 2) I never, NEVER, side with the powerful against the weak.
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:51 am
Excellent, EugeneDebs.
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:59 amProperty doesnt have rights? Curious to see where you stand in the vick case. Pets are property, and I dont think people take precedence in this case. What you think?
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:59 amAh not exactly. The railroads were BUILT by goverment subsidy. They were paid for every mile of track they laid and GIVEN land on both sides to develop to pay for their rolling stock. I by the way AM a railroad conductor and have been for more than thirty years. Private companies would NEVER have made the investment to run lines to all those rural homes it wasnt economically feasable NOR did they pay for the huge projects like Hoover Dam. They were BENEFICIARIES of these programs not partners nor were they behind them. Bell Telephone was GAURANTEED a cost plus contract for service from the government and a monopoly which amounts to a government subsidy and both PCs AND the internet were ENTIRELY created by the government, the military actually, and subsidized until they became marketable at which point they were given to industry. You would be suprised if you looked closely how much of our economy is public cost turned into private profit
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:02 amLiberal morals? I would have to equality is a huge one. Progressive, scientific, modern. It is kind of hard to say.
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:03 amDo you think we pay as much as the rest of the world combined for defense because our security is so fragile? A large part of the function of the DOD is to do the research and development for our high tech industries
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:04 amI like public turned private programs
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:05 amEugeneDebs says:Apparantly too stupid to read too since the answer to your question
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:05 am————————————-
please reference the post where the answer to my question may be found. Others may like to catch up.
These are liberal aspects I agree with and like.
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:06 amjayschmanski says:
Liberal morals? I would have to equality is a huge one. Progressive, scientific, modern. It is kind of hard to say.
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:03 am
Then how do you know you don’t have liberal morals? Help me understand the separation of “conservative morals” and “liberal morals.”
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:08 amIf you really see living animals as property that is where we differ. Cruelty to animals is illegal and should be. They are only property in the loosest sense. You can own them it is illegal to steal them from you but to think your rights should extend to doing whatever you want to something with emotions that can feel agony doesnt work for me
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:08 amjayschmanski says:
I like public turned private programs
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:05 am
Why?
What programs are now public, that you would like to see turn private?
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:11 amjayschmanski says:
I like public turned private programs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I am not philosophically against them. Fine lets subsidize. There SHOULD be a public benifit though. For instance. Taxol. One of the most important anti cancer drugs of the last several decades. Discovered, researched and developed by the Cancer Institute and the NIH completely with taxpayer money. Then GIVEN to Bristol Squibb Meyers to market however they want. They charge about a thousand dollars for doses that cost them a hundred to make. I say sure give it to them but then tell them they can ONLY make a 10% profit on Taxol since taxpayers paid for it. I mean if they get 11 percent someone needs to go to jail. As long as there is a public benefit lets do the subsidies but if we did them more directly intead of hiding them in the military they would be more efficient.
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:12 amzooey, I feel if you are trying to bait me into an arguement. Consevatism and liberalism come from two very different places. Equality I believe is not a conservatism moral or belief. Conservative in itself means it is not changing in a round about way so it can niether be modern nor progressive. In my belief
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:13 amstickaforkinus says:
please reference the post where the answer to my question may be found. Others may like to catch up.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Others arent as stupid as you. You are the only one lost here. Give it up you will always be stupid
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:13 amBSM paid for the rights, out bid a few other companies, or paid with lobbiest. You have a point there, and I do believe we do get a cut called taxes, if they arent all wrote off!
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:14 amjayschmanski says:
BSM paid for the rights
>>
No they didnt it was GIVEN to them.
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:16 amZooey-In equality is not always a bad thing and conservatives embrace that with alot of self pride in personal accomplishment were as Liberalism is more about the pride of a whole groups accomplishments. at least that is how I see it. How do you see it
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:19 amjayschmanski says:
zooey, I feel if you are trying to bait me into an arguement. Consevatism and liberalism come from two very different places. Equality I believe is not a conservatism moral or belief. Conservative in itself means it is not changing in a round about way so it can niether be modern nor progressive. In my belief
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:13 am
No, I’m not trying to bait you into a fight. I’m trying to narrow down what you are saying, in order to understand more fully.
For instance, I’m not sure I am understanding what you said about equality. Did you just say that equality is not a conservative value? Hence, that you do not believe in equality?
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:19 amEugeneDebs says:
stickaforkinus says:
please reference the post where the answer to my question may be found. Others may like to catch up.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Others arent as stupid as you. You are the only one lost here. Give it up you will always be stupid
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:21 am———————————-
Aw, come on. Humor a poor, dumb, fool just one more time. What’s the post?
one more for a lobbyist, I guess he earned his money. What about how much they pay in taxes, or how many more people they employ, or how the profits go towards research and developement of future drugs
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:21 amjayschmanski says:
Zooey-In equality is not always a bad thing and conservatives embrace that with alot of self pride in personal accomplishment were as Liberalism is more about the pride of a whole groups accomplishments. at least that is how I see it. How do you see it
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:19 am
So you’re saying that inequality between men and women, minorities and whites, gay and straight, is perfectly fine with you?
I believe in equal rights for all people, and equal opportunity for all people.
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:22 amjayschmanski , surely you don’t think the critters in the Chicago stock yards are property. Shame on you.
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:23 amI embrace in-equality for self-growth. In-equality, although ugly at times, motivates us to be better. Think of all the advancements that have been made due to in-equalities. I know there have been quite a few horrible things, but if we were all equal you would never have the USA, MLK, port-a-potti emptiers. No one would try and be great, because everyone would be the same. I hope I am making sense.
Asians in America have a lot to be proud of. The obsticles they overcame apon arriving in the U.S. to the successes they have today. The same could be said about African Americans, Hispanics, and even whites.
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:28 amEqual rights, yes. You always strive to be better. Equal rights for women men blacks, all started from in-equality, and it is still in progress. Irish and Italians also. But a conservative I believe embraces that in-equality so fullfill the self pride that I was talking about. Conservatives will look at in-equality and see how far we have gone, a liberal will see it and think about how far we have to go. And so that is why I think equality is more a liberal moral than a conservative
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:33 amjayschmanski says:
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:28 am
You are confusing socioeconomic status with inequality. Yes, there will always be varying levels of social and economic status, because people have varying interests and values (i.e. some may value giving to others over making lots of money themselves).
I am talking about equal rights and equal opportunity.
A woman would have all the same rights as a man. A black or hispanic person would have every opportunity as a white person. A gay person would have all the same rights as I do.
Do you have a problem with this?
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:35 amI have to run, I will see you around, and I hope I make sense. I will check back later to read the posts
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:35 amI dont view anyone less then me or more. Just different No problem with that, but this is I believe the confusion in why liberals think conservatives are racist, and the fact that some are doesnt help either. I will get bak with you later
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:39 amThank you for your honesty, jayschmanski.
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:43 amDoes a convicted murderer get equal rights?
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:44 amDoes an unborn baby have equal rights? Or is it merely an owned human like a cat, or dog?
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:56 amIs an unborn baby an individual or is it to be considered as a temporary appendage? Should it be removed as in breast reduction?
July 22nd, 2009 at 3:01 amI think the answers to these questions partly determine whether one has liberal or conservative morals.
July 22nd, 2009 at 3:06 amYou lying sack of crap. It’s PRIVATE insurance comapanies who have a 30% profit margin a$$hole. Overhead in Medicare is less than 3%. Gawd, you are the biggest stinking liar I have ever seen. You horrible selfish old fart. Dry up and blow away fu(khead.
July 22nd, 2009 at 8:57 amMedicare administrative costs are 3%. Not sure what their profit margin is.
July 22nd, 2009 at 10:12 amMedicare’s administrative costs on a per-person basis were 24.8% higher, on average, than private insurers.
http://timerealclearpolitics.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/admincosts1.gif
July 22nd, 2009 at 10:20 amcopied from http://www.qando.net/?p=3362
“breathtaking nonetheless: an estimated $68 billion (with a B) in outright Medicare fraud every year (About $3 billion in Miami-Dade county ALONE.) On top of that, according to well-respected Dartmouth researchers, roughly a third of Medicare’s total $400 billion annual spending goes to procedures which were medically unnecessary.”
July 22nd, 2009 at 10:25 amSome have called me
July 22nd, 2009 at 11:29 am“You horrible selfish old fart “.
I sponsor 7 kids in poverty every month. 6 in Guatemala, 1 in Nicaragua. (6 Children International – 1 World Vision)
I donate to 2 orphanages each month. Carolyn Jones’ (Feed The children) Abandoned Baby Center in Kenya, Lova A Child in Haiti.
I donate to Fellowship of Christians and Jews each month to help feed starving Jews in Russia.
I know I will be called a liar by some. That’s ok. I know who I am and I know what those people are. The screamers and vile mouthed are the selfish ones, the fools.
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/46/2/38980580.pdf
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,136990,00.html
Take a look stickaforkinus… the US spends more in terms of real dollars and in terms of a 5 of GDP than any other industrialized nation on healthcare and we are LESS satisfied than those with UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE, which is EVERY other INDUSTRIALIZED NATION.
When will you realize that the private insurance and healthcare industry are ripping us all off and that UNIVERSAL COVERAGE will SAVE money?
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:07 pmIt’s very nice that you sponsor those kids, stick.
It’s very admirable that you donate to those charities.
That’s not what we’re discussing though, is it?
We’re discussing healthcare and the delaying tactics of the Republicans in opposing healthcare reform.
Care to comment on this?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,136990,00.html
I included FOX’s reporting on this so that you wouldn’t think it’s biased in any way…
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:10 pmbelaccifer lacca says:
It’s very nice that you sponsor those kids, stick.
It’s very admirable that you donate to those charities.
That’s not what we’re discussing though, is it?
————————————————
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:17 pmsubject or not, I was responding to a personal attack.
Well now that that is out of the way care to return to the subject?
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:18 pmOkay… maybe not ready yet.
A question.
Earlier you posted a story that you said spoke to Obama’s attitude towards end-of-life care. It was some nonsense about how we’ll be handing out pain-pills instead of surgery, remember?
I wondered if you had a response to the study referenced in this article that shows that the U.S. is falling behind in life expectancy?
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4176/is_20070812/ai_n19476770/
Why?
From the article:
Whaddaya know?
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:37 pmYou weren’t responding to anything. You were changing the subject because you cannot argue your case.
BTW dumbass, Medicare doesn’t have a profit margin. Gawd, you are stoooopid.
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:43 pmstickaforkinus says:
subject or not, I was responding to a personal attack.
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:17 pm
A “personal attack” not made by anyone here, but by “some.”
Go back to talking to yourself. Sheesh…
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:44 pmSure, I have a comment. This one’s easy. Have you spent time walking through a mall or down main street. Half the people are lard asses who sit in front of the tube or xbox 16 hours a day, are lazy, and eat mostly junk food.
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:46 pmWhat’s surprising is that we don’t rank 299th.
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:47 pmZooey says:
stickaforkinus says:
subject or not, I was responding to a personal attack.
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:17 pm
A “personal attack” not made by anyone here, but by “some.”
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:49 pm——————————————–
post 382
Sure, I have a comment. This one’s easy. Have you spent time walking through a mall or down main street. Half the people are lard asses who sit in front of the tube or xbox 16 hours a day, are lazy, and eat mostly junk food.
Ahh, the ‘Grandpa Simpson’ argument. Well played, stick. Well played.
Have any research to back up your claim that Xbox and Junk Food are the major problem and that obesity will NOT be better addressed by a Universal Healthcare System than it is by our current hodge-podge of profit driven vultures?
After all, I think they have television, junk food and Xbox in other industrialized nations as well…
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:52 pmNo response?
Surprising.
‘Cause it kind of seems like you aren’t interested in discussing healthcare reform at all. And would rather ‘engage in every activity you can to slow down’ and derail the discussion.
Strange.
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:03 pmbelaccifer lacca says:
Ahh, the ‘Grandpa Simpson’ argument. Well played, stick. Well played.
Have any research to back up your claim that Xbox and Junk Food are the major problem and that obesity will NOT be better addressed by a Universal Healthcare System than it is by our current hodge-podge of profit driven vultures?
After all, I think they have television, junk food and Xbox in other industrialized nations as well…
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:07 pm————————————-
What is stick?
I didn’t argue that these were the major problem. The intuitively obvious doesn’t demand explanation.
I’m not aware of any encentive of penalty for poor lifestyle choices in the current bill other than something regarding smoking. These problems probable could be better addressed by UHC but as of yet, no one is reporting provisions to do that.
Don’t be so impatient. I’m multitasking.
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:09 pmWhat is stick? That’s you, stickaforkinus.
The problem with the ‘intuitively obvious’ is that it is often wrong. That’s why we have research and the scientific method. That’s why we challenge our assumptions to see if they are correct. So while the ‘intuitively obvious’ does not demand explanation it certainly demands scrutiny… and your ‘intuitively obvious’ facts have been found lacking.
So you admit that these problems ‘probable could be better addressed by UHC’ [sic] but you won’t support a UHC system because you haven’t seen specific provisions to do that yet?
See why I think you’re just interested in stalling?
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:13 pmbelaccifer lacca says:
‘Cause it kind of seems like you aren’t interested in discussing healthcare reform at all. And would rather ‘engage in every activity you can to slow down’ and derail the discussion.
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:14 pm——————————–
I can’t respond to this without some context. What are the ‘every activity’?
Zooey says:
Go back to talking to yourself. Sheesh…
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:16 pm———————————————
Back to? When did I ever?
Zooey
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:18 pmBoy, did you ever wake up on the wrong side of the bed with a chip on your shoulder.
stickaforkinus says:
belaccifer lacca says:
‘Cause it kind of seems like you aren’t interested in discussing healthcare reform at all. And would rather ‘engage in every activity you can to slow down’ and derail the discussion.
——————————–
I can’t respond to this without some context. What are the ‘every activity’?
See this post copied here for an example, sheesh.
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:19 pmstickaforkinus says:
Zooey
Boy, did you ever wake up on the wrong side of the bed with a chip on your shoulder.
Example #2.
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:19 pmCare to comment on this, yet?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,136990,00.html
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:20 pmbelaccifer lacca says:
What is stick? That’s you, stickaforkinus.
The problem with the ‘intuitively obvious’ is that it is often wrong. That’s why we have research and the scientific method. That’s why we challenge our assumptions to see if they are correct. So while the ‘intuitively obvious’ does not demand explanation it certainly demands scrutiny… and your ‘intuitively obvious’ facts have been found lacking.
So you admit that these problems ‘probable could be better addressed by UHC’ [sic] but you won’t support a UHC system because you haven’t seen specific provisions to do that yet?
———————————————
Yes, that is true and because of a list of other things I require to be included before I sign on. I posted the list a long ways back. If you care to see it or care to know what it contained, go look for it.
about the intuitively obvious statement. You should go to forums where people vehemently defend evolution without proof. Their posts are full of ‘intuitively obvious’.
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:31 pmOf course you are correct to say many times it is incorrect but it is intuitively obvious that most of the time it is correct. My post is one of those times.
belaccifer lacca says:
stickaforkinus says:
Zooey
Boy, did you ever wake up on the wrong side of the bed with a chip on your shoulder.
Example #2.
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:37 pm—————————————————
a response to an attack is not avoiding the subject.
If I called you a da df fah, would you not respond or would ignore it to not stray from the subject?
You should go to forums where people vehemently defend evolution without proof. Their posts are full of ‘intuitively obvious’.
The theory of evolution is constantly being tested and questioned and is accepted as scientific fact. Bad example.
It is ‘intuitively obvious’ that the sun and moon circle the earth. Just go to any mall and watch them rise in the east and set in the west. It is also wrong. I’m afraid your post is actually one of these times. Sorry.
I posted the list a long ways back. If you care to see it or care to know what it contained, go look for it.
Your ‘list’ is another stalling tactic. As I said when you posted it, you don’t get to demand everything you want BEFORE you’ll come to the table.
You’re like a new driver learning to stick shift, stick.
Stall, stall… hesitate… stall.
Why are costs lower and customer satisfaction higher in countries with UHC systems?
Why are life expectancies longer and infant mortality rates lower in those same countries?
Defend your opposition to a universal healthcare system with more than ‘intuitively obvious’ but factually flawed statements, please.
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:39 pma response to an attack is not avoiding the subject.
If I called you a da df fah, would you not respond or would ignore it to not stray from the subject?
Example #3
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:41 pmbelaccifer lacca says:
stickaforkinus says:
belaccifer lacca says:
I can’t respond to this without some context. What are the ‘every activity’?
See this post copied here for an example, sheesh.
——————————–
How can I respond to the charge of avoidance if you don’t cite the examples where I did? Asking for context is not avoiding subject. Your charge of avoidance is CHANGING THE SUBJECT AND AVOIDING TALKING ABOUT HEALTH CARE. sheeeesh.
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:42 pmBoy- we can get stuck in an infinite loop here or you can defend your opposition to universal health care.
Choices, choices.
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:45 pmbelaccifer lacca says:
Example #3
——————————–
and this is the third time you have avoided the subject to avoid talking about health care.
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:49 pmI’m beginning to get it. You, and others don’t want to discuss. You want to throw out bait so you can do what most libs on this forum do; demean, slander, berate, curse and toss vile insults.
stickaforkinus, stop lying and I’ll stop attacking you. I’ve known people like you. You can no more stop lying than you can stop breathing.
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:50 pmI’m beginning to get it. You, and others don’t want to discuss. You want to throw out bait so you can do what most libs on this forum do; demean, slander, berate, curse and toss vile insults.
I’ll ask again.
Why are costs lower and customer satisfaction higher in countries with UHC systems?
Why are life expectancies longer and infant mortality rates lower in those same countries?
Defend your opposition to a universal healthcare system with more than ‘intuitively obvious’ but factually flawed statements, please.
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:51 pmHe can’t defend it, because his opposition to universal health care is simply that he is a mean, selfish, greedy old bastard, who doesn’t give a rat’s ass about his fellow countrymen. In other words, he’s a Republican.
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:53 pmbelaccifer lacca says:So you admit that these problems ‘probable could be better addressed by UHC’ [sic] but you won’t support a UHC system because you haven’t seen specific provisions to do that yet?
Duhhhh, yes.
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:53 pmDuhhhh, yes.
Defend your opposition to a universal healthcare system with more than ‘Duhhh, yes.’ please.
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:55 pmshoeless says:
stickaforkinus, stop lying and I’ll stop attacking you. I’ve known people like you. You can no more stop lying than you can stop breathing.
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:56 pm——————————-
and I’ve known people like you who scream the loudest and are found to be guilty of the same things they rail against.
and I’ve noticed that most people who claim that others ‘don’t want to discuss’ issues but would rather ‘throw out bait so you can do what most libs on this forum do; demean, slander, berate, curse and toss vile insults’ are often (or at least in one specific instance I can think of) not interested in a discussion at all.
Unless, ‘Duhhhh, yes’ now counts as a reasoned rebuttal.
Beavis and Butthead were orators of the highest caliber, apparently.
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:00 pmbelaccifer lacca says:
I posted the list a long ways back. If you care to see it or care to know what it contained, go look for it.
Your ‘list’ is another stalling tactic. As I said when you posted it, you don’t get to demand everything you want BEFORE you’ll come to the table.
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:00 pm————————————-
You want me to defend my resistence to health care reform but when I offer the defense you say it is stalling. Done with you and your baiting.
stickaforkinus?
If I may?
Why are costs lower and customer satisfaction higher in countries with UHC systems?
Why are life expectancies longer and infant mortality rates lower in those same countries?
Any thoughts?
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:01 pmHe is lying again. Like all Republicans, there is no UHC plan he would support, no matter the provisions. That is why Harry Reid finally told the Democrats to forget about trying to get Republican support. You might as well try to get insurance company CEOs on board. The result would be the same, NO!
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:01 pmbelaccifer lacca says:
stickaforkinus?
If I may?
1. Why are costs lower and customer satisfaction higher in countries with UHC systems?
2. Why are life expectancies longer and infant mortality rates lower in those same countries?
Any thoughts?
—————————————-
1, they may well be.
2. they may well be but the numbers are skewed. I read an article yesterday that said the stats are skewed because many countries with NHC don’t count those who die within 30+- days after birth. And yes, I’ll go back through my history and try to find the article as reference. May take a while.
Why are the delays for getting medical treatment longer in countries with NHC? Why is a 23 year old considered not eligible for bladder cancer treatment until he is 25. Answer, the percentage of those contracting the disease is not great enough until the age of 25. This came from a Congressman speaking this morning after Obama finished his address.
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:09 pmYou want me to defend my resistence to health care reform but when I offer the defense you say it is stalling.
You didn’t offer a defense… you said you didn’t want to pay for lazy people and immigrants. And you want the Government to be forced to use the same plan (I’m fine with this, BTW)
That’s not a defense or argument against it, especially since I’ve pointed out many times that you will pay LESS for the indigent under a UHC system than you do now.
You refused to respond to that point and stalled. repeatedly.
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:10 pmbelaccifer lacca, this is all about original sin. Conservatives believe that man is inherently bad. This theme has run throughout this trolls posts. They believe that those who possess the most things (like good health insurance) are better than those who have little. After all, if they were not superior, they could not have gained more possessions. Using this warped logic, conservatives convince themselves that the 47 million Americans with no health insurance are all scum, and are not worthy of any effort to help them live and be healthy.
Liberals on the other hand do not believe in original sin. Thus, we believe that man is inherently good, and everyone deserves help, if they need it.
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:10 pmThis congressman contracted the disease and was advised he would not have been eligible for treatment in GB.
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:12 pmWhy are the delays for getting medical treatment longer in countries with NHC?
They aren’t. from the following link: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,136990,00.html
Americans were also the most likely to have difficulty getting care on nights, weekends, or holidays without going to an emergency room.
Why is a 23 year old considered not eligible for bladder cancer treatment until he is 25. Answer, the percentage of those contracting the disease is not great enough until the age of 25
This is bull. Do you really believe that someone with cancer would not receive care because of coverage issues? Oh, well that does happen in the United States, so I can see why you’d be confused.
http://mediamatters.org/research/200906220028
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:13 pmBig deal. He’s a Republican. He was probably lying. The Republicans have lied constantly on every part of this issue. See, some of us tend to skeptical of liars. I suppose since you are such a huge liar yourself, you have no problem with other liars.
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:17 pmMy DEFENSE FOR MY OPPOSITION to NHC is that as the plan stands now is IT DOESN’T CONTAIN THE CONDITIONS AND SAFEGUARD I PERSONALLY REQUIRE IT TO INCLUDE BEFORE I SIGN ON. I HAVE POSTED THEM BEFORE. IF YOU WANT TO READ MY DEFENSE, LOOK IT UP! IF YOU DON’T WANT TO, TOUGH COOKIES.
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:18 pmHmm… according to this fine website on bladder cancer provided by Great Britain’s National Health Service not only can you reciece treatment for bladder cancer at any age, you can volunteer for pilot studies on experimental treatments as soon as you are 18! That’s weird that you said the opposite, huh?
Guess we can’t always take what some congressperson heard from a ‘friend’ as gospel, can we?
http://www.cancerhelp.org.uk/trials/trials/trial.asp?freetextsearch=&searchtype=select&trial=18143&trialno=10897&spage=1&objective=0&cancer=65&stage=0&phase=0&treatment=0&location=0
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:21 pmbelaccifer lacca says:
Why are the delays for getting medical treatment longer in countries with NHC?
They aren’t. from the following link: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,136990,00.html
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:22 pm——————————————-
You submitted this article before and I responded. These are weekend stats and don’t explain the 6-8 weeks common delays.
My DEFENSE FOR MY OPPOSITION to NHC is that as the plan stands now is IT DOESN’T CONTAIN THE CONDITIONS AND SAFEGUARD I PERSONALLY REQUIRE IT TO INCLUDE BEFORE I SIGN ON. I HAVE POSTED THEM BEFORE. IF YOU WANT TO READ MY DEFENSE, LOOK IT UP! IF YOU DON’T WANT TO, TOUGH COOKIES.
Okay, but then you aren’t really here to discuss anything are you?
You’re just here to say stuff like ‘Tough Cookies’ and ‘Let them eat cake’ and generally be a distraction, like I said. Aren’t you?
‘Cause you have no reasons, just rationalizations.
No facts, just false observations.
And no argument, just an entrenched position.
Which is what this entire thread is bemoaning (remember what it said way, way up there? RNC memo: ‘[E]ngage in every activity we can to slow down’ health care.) and why I said you have no reasoned argument just stalling tactics. Get it?
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:25 pmYou submitted this article before and I responded. These are weekend stats and don’t explain the 6-8 weeks common delays.
Again. Let me post more so its clearer for you.
Let me explain. Americans wait LONGER for treatment than most other industrialized nations. Receive WORSE care and pay MORE out-of-pocket for the privilege.
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:30 pmNice one belaccifer lacca, but it will have no effect on this Republican troll. He will continue to believe the Republican lie.
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:33 pmbelaccifer lacca
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:34 pmyou cite a clinical trial as evidence for universal care for this cancer as if a clinical trial is common, ordinary.
Stickaforkinus is right about one thing. Someone should stick a fork in him, ’cause he’s done.
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:35 pmThat is not what he said. Stop lying.
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:36 pmyou cite a clinical trial as evidence for universal care for this cancer as if a clinical trial is common, ordinary.
you cite a congresspersons friend as evidence against it, as if they weren’t dead wrong. As evidenced by the rest of the website I linked to.
This misconception and misdirection from you is becoming common and ordinary.
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:37 pmbelaccifer lacca says:
Okay, but then you aren’t really here to discuss anything are you?
You’re just here to say stuff like ‘Tough Cookies’ and ‘Let them eat cake’ and generally be a distraction, like I said. Aren’t you?
‘Cause you have no reasons
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:41 pm———————————–
My DEFENSE FOR MY OPPOSITION to NHC is that as the plan stands now is IT DOESN’T CONTAIN THE CONDITIONS AND SAFEGUARD I PERSONALLY REQUIRE IT TO INCLUDE BEFORE I SIGN ON. I HAVE POSTED THEM BEFORE. IF YOU WANT TO READ MY DEFENSE, LOOK IT UP! IF YOU DON’T WANT TO, TOUGH COOKIES.
Right- but you’re not willing to come to the table and discuss these things until you get them. So that’s not a discussion, get it?
You don’t even bother to defend the need for these supposed ’safeguards’ except to tell me to ‘look it up’
I have… most of them are unnecessary and counter-productive.
We don’t need you to sign on to get this done. We’re inviting you and the Republicans to discuss this, if you don’t want to, TOUGH COOKIES!
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:44 pmhttp://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/09/a-health-care-system-to-die-for/
More information on deaths due to waiting for or receiving inadequate care, guess who’s on top of the industiralized nations?
Guess we should really dig in our heels about those ‘conditions and safeguards’ huh?
I mean, it’s not like people are actually dying… oh, wait.
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:51 pmIf I’m a distraction, ignore me. I have said “I welome a gov health care for some…” I don’t believe all the stats I read. They can and are often skewed to a favor a particular position. Infant mortality is an example. Customer satisfaction another.
I think Ibelaccifer lacca says: I’ve pointed out many times that you will pay LESS for the indigent under a UHC system than you do now.”
Maybe, maybe not. That’s why I want assurances written into the plan. I want assurances that… Forget it, I’m not going to repeat them again.
July 22nd, 2009 at 3:09 pmAll your stats are fine. I want assurances that these stats will be achieved in our UHC. I want to read careful unbiased analysis of these stats. Convince the other , more than, half of the population who are not crazy about the plan that these stats will be achieved. One stat I would like explanation of is the CBO cost curve for UHC is UP. I want assurances the costs of the plan won’t be dumped off to the states. As of now, 10’s of billions will be.
I’m not biting any more. Take this or leave it. I really didn’t need to say this because it’s intuitively obvious what you will do.
The truth is I’m not a distraction. You are tickled to death to have a ‘punching bag’. You need, really need, someone to hurl insults at. Libs need, really need, someone to demonize, demean, and insult. It’s an inborn addiction. Bye Bye.
And you apparently like to have the stuffing knocked out of you.
July 22nd, 2009 at 3:15 pmAll your stats are fine. I want assurances that these stats will be achieved in our UHC.
You say you want assurances but you ignore the evidence of this working in the rest of the industrialized world, why?
I don’t need someone to hurl insults at.
If you feel the need to be a victim then be your guest… (pun intended)but it was you who criticized my reading comprehension and you who said I was a nitwit in our first interaction.
I don’t need to be handled with kid gloves but I will not be bullied by a bull in a china shop.
Bye.
July 22nd, 2009 at 3:19 pmCorrection: You didn’t call me a nitwit in our first interaction. I apologize.
July 22nd, 2009 at 3:26 pmbelaccifer lacca says:
July 22nd, 2009 at 3:29 pmgummble-bee-itch; and you who said I was a nitwit in our first interaction.
——————————————-
You are correct and I apologize. it was gummble-bee-itch who was hurling insults at me at that same time. I mistakingly attributed the nitwit comment to you. :-(
I don’t believe all the stats I read. They can and are often skewed to a favor a particular position. Infant mortality is an example. Customer satisfaction another.
All we’re asking for is some counter-evidence to support your claim that these are skewed… something with data that can be read and discussed, not something that is ‘intuitively obvious’
That’s it.
July 22nd, 2009 at 3:29 pmConcerning infant mortality:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant_mortality
July 22nd, 2009 at 3:45 pmWhile the United States reports every case of infant mortality, it has been suggested that some other developed countries do not. A 2006 article in U.S. News & World Report claims that “First, it’s shaky ground to compare U.S. infant mortality with reports from other countries. The United States counts all births as live if they show any sign of life, regardless of prematurity or size. This includes what many other countries report as stillbirths. In Austria and Germany, fetal weight must be at least 500 grams (1 pound) to count as a live birth; in other parts of Europe, such as Switzerland, the fetus must be at least 30 centimeters (12 inches) long. In Belgium and France, births at less than 26 weeks of pregnancy are registered as lifeless.[5] And some countries don’t reliably register babies who die within the first 24 hours of birth. Thus, the United States is sure to report higher infant mortality rates. For this very reason, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, which collects the European numbers, warns of head-to-head comparisons by country.”[6] However, all of the countries named adopted the WHO definition in the late 1980s or early 1990s.[7]
regarding ‘why hurry? People are dying.’ . If we don’t get this right, many more will die.
July 22nd, 2009 at 3:50 pmthere I go again. Making statements without evidence. If we don’t get this right, many more may die.
July 22nd, 2009 at 3:52 pmHowever, all of the countries named adopted the WHO definition in the late 1980s or early 1990s.
The latest available data from WHO still shows the U.S. lagging, sorry. I’m sorry for all of us.
Location Infant mortality rate (per 1 000 live births) both sexes Year
Canada 5 2006
United States of America 7 2006
Denmark 3 2006
Finland 3 2006
France 4 2006
Germany 4 2006
Greece 4 2006
Iceland 2 2006
Ireland 4 2006
Italy 3 2006
Netherlands 4 2006
Norway 3 2006
Portugal 3 2006
Spain 4 2006
Sweden 3 2006
Switzerland 4 2006
United Kingdom 5 2006
© World Health Organization
July 22nd, 2009 at 3:59 pmThe information in this database is provided as a service to our users.
The responsibility for the interpretation and use of the material lies with the user.
In no event shall the World Health Organization be liable for any damages
More than double Denmark’s rates using the same standard?
I call that unacceptable.
July 22nd, 2009 at 4:00 pmthere I go again. Making statements without evidence. If we don’t get this right, many more may die.
Exactly. Where’s the evidence? ‘Cause what we’ve found so far shows the opposite to be true.
July 22nd, 2009 at 4:02 pmI read “However, all of the countries named adopted the WHO definition in the late 1980s or early 1990s” differently. They can adopt all they want. Doesn’t mean they comply. They adopted in 90’s but the article refered to current practices as of 2006 which did not follow guidelines they adopted.
July 22nd, 2009 at 4:17 pmI read “However, all of the countries named adopted the WHO definition in the late 1980s or early 1990s” differently. They can adopt all they want. Doesn’t mean they comply. They adopted in 90’s but the article refered to current practices as of 2006 which did not follow guidelines they adopted.
How can it be read differently? The WHO has a standard for how to count a live birth and infant mortality. All of the countries listed have now adopted that standard.
Using that standard, the Untied States still lags behind other industriaized nations. This is why I posted the data from 2006- the same year your article was published… the author never says that we are better than the rest of the world, incidentely (I’ve read the entire article that wiki linked to) Just that the differences are statistically insignificant and are related to other factors.
You can argue about what factors are contributory but the birth weight argument no longer holds water. The data from 2006 (using the same standard worldwide) doesn’t support it.
July 22nd, 2009 at 4:23 pmRecently, there has been great concern and angst about a gov program which has a ‘vast hole’ where many don’t get coverage. At the moment, I can’t remember which it is (some help please). Don’t we want assurances UHC has no holes. That’s why I say ‘may die’. We need to get it right.
July 22nd, 2009 at 4:23 pmRecently, there has been great concern and angst about a gov program which has a ‘vast hole’ where many don’t get coverage. At the moment, I can’t remember which it is (some help please). Don’t we want assurances UHC has no holes. That’s why I say ‘may die’. We need to get it right.
This why I say all your ‘evidence’ is like an urban legend.
You’ve read or heard something but don’t remember quite what.
A cogressperson said that they wouldn’t have gotten treatment in the United Kingdom ’cause they heard that from ’somebody.’
Obama will force you to take a pain pill instead of giving you surgery.
It’s fear-mongering, mostly false and vague… like an urban legend.
July 22nd, 2009 at 4:27 pmGo to the WHO’s website and look at the data… all the metadata is listed. It’s all out in the open if you care to look it up… and easy to use, too!
Just like the UK’s National Health Service website that covered treatment options for bladder cancer… options available no matter what your age.
This fear-mongering is far less effective when people can refute it in two seconds on the internet. Sorry.
July 22nd, 2009 at 4:29 pmhttp://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/usa_statistics.html#56
If birthrate is a problem then let’s compare the under 5 mortality rate for non-infants… the other industrialized nations still do better. Universal healthcare still does better.
July 22nd, 2009 at 4:44 pmCorrection: birthrate should be birth weight above. Sorry.
July 22nd, 2009 at 4:46 pmDoes the report say all countries actually used the adopted criteria or does it say what the WHO difines as proper criteria? Wiki article described inconsistencies in 2006 reporting criteria used between countries. It doesn’t matter if or when they adopted. It matters if the countries actually follow uniform criterea.
July 22nd, 2009 at 4:46 pmWiki article described inconsistencies in 2006 reporting criteria used between countries.
Wiki article is taken from one doctors article in U.S. News and World Report in 2006… you can read it. I did.
The argument against this article’s assertions is that NOW all countries are following the WHO standards and the U.S. still does poorly.
Look at the UNICEF info I linked to. If differences in how we record infant births really account for the difference then let’s just look at non-infants and their mortality rate. The U.S. still does poorly compared to the other industrialized nations. Again.
Look at the WHO website… like I said, you can go through all the meta-data yourself. No one is hiding this or skewing it.
July 22nd, 2009 at 4:51 pmThe point is, stats are stats. Your under 5 argument may be valid. Don’t know. Don’t know the criteria nations actually used.
July 22nd, 2009 at 4:51 pmDon’t know the criteria nations actually used.
Then read them.
Stats are stats. They show that the other industrialized nations are more successful at keeping children alive.
They show that people pay less for healthcare in these countries.
They show that people are more satisfied with the healthcare they receive in these countries.
They show that people live longer in these countries.
As Dr. Seuss might say:
July 22nd, 2009 at 4:53 pmRead them, read them, there they are.
The argument against this article’s assertions is that NOW all countries are following the WHO standards and the U.S. still does poorly.
Are you sure?
July 22nd, 2009 at 4:53 pmAre you sure?
Find something that says they aren’t.
The WHO says they are.
The article from wiki you already posted says they are.
Who says they aren’t?
July 22nd, 2009 at 4:55 pmIn particular, I am especially skepticle of WHO stats. They are a powerful and enfluential socialized medicine advocate.
July 22nd, 2009 at 4:59 pmouch, skepticle
July 22nd, 2009 at 5:00 pmHowever, all of the countries named adopted the WHO definition in the late 1980s or early 1990s.
Adverb
however (not comparable)
Nevertheless, nonetheless, even so, that said, in spite of this.
He told me not to do it; however, I did it.
adopt – espouse: take up the cause, ideology, practice, method, of someone and use it as one’s own; “She embraced Catholicism”; “They adopted the Jewish faith”
July 22nd, 2009 at 5:00 pmwordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
What?
You’re skeptical of their numbers now?
July 22nd, 2009 at 5:02 pmhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization
Explain how this is a political organization? Explain how the rest of the world has been duped by socialized medicine?
July 22nd, 2009 at 5:03 pmPeople living in countries with UHC have been tricked into living longer and finding their healthcare more satisfying than people in the United States?
July 22nd, 2009 at 5:05 pmIf Congress would remove their exemption, I could be moved a long way to acceptance. With that, I’ve come to a stopping point.
July 22nd, 2009 at 5:06 pmFine. Let’s remove all exemptions and offer the same selection of plans to everyone.
I agree.
That’s called single-payer.
July 22nd, 2009 at 5:09 pmI don’t care to go that far, but if congress like it so much and it’s so good, then , like Joe Biden said, ‘time to step up to the plate’ and lead the way. I’d rather wait a while. See how well it works.
July 22nd, 2009 at 6:02 pmHere’s a site which comments on WHO methodology for it’s stats. Some WHO criteria appear to favor socialized med. or more gov.
http://www.cato.org/pubs/bp/bp101.pdf
July 22nd, 2009 at 6:03 pmI don’t care to go that far, but if congress like it so much and it’s so good, then , like Joe Biden said, ‘time to step up to the plate’ and lead the way. I’d rather wait a while. See how well it works.
Congress already has govt. provided insurance and it works great.
Here’s a site which comments on WHO methodology for it’s stats. Some WHO criteria appear to favor socialized med. or more gov.
And the Cato institute is NOT an advocay group? They’re a think tank founded to advance libertarian policies… I wonder why they distrust the WHO.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cato_Institute
Bu we’re not talking about the OP numbers here… only infant mortality rates. Explain how their supposed bias can effect the actual numbers?
And explain how we see the same disparity between the United States and the other industrialized nations in the UNICEF numbers for non-infant under 5 mortality?
July 22nd, 2009 at 7:02 pmbelaccifer lacca says:I don’t care to go that far, but if congress like it so much and it’s so good, then , like Joe Biden said, ‘time to step up to the plate’ and lead the way. I’d rather wait a while. See how well it works.
1 Congress already has govt. provided insurance and it works great.
2 And the Cato institute is NOT an advocay group? They’re a think tank founded to advance libertarian policies… I wonder why they distrust the WHO.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cato_Institute
3 Bu we’re not talking about the OP numbers here… only infant mortality rates. Explain how their supposed bias can effect the actual numbers?
———————-
July 22nd, 2009 at 7:52 pm1 They don’t have a policy under a new plan. Why their exemption?
2 Probably for the same reason I don’t trust them. They’re an arm of the UN. Any organization which puts countries Cuba, Pakistan, China, Kenya, Morocco, Egypt on the UN Human Rights Advisory Committee, I don’t trust.
3 I’m talking about WHO stats in general. The url I referenced showed how easily stats can be manipulated. They showed the possibility that rankings could easily range significantly upward but for highly subjective criteria. No, we’re not #37. We’re somewhere north of there.
1 They don’t have a policy under a new plan. Why their exemption?
They keep their current coverage. Govt. Provided insurance.
2 Probably for the same reason I don’t trust them. They’re an arm of the UN. Any organization which puts countries Cuba, Pakistan, China, Kenya, Morocco, Egypt on the UN Human Rights Advisory Committee, I don’t trust.
Okay. You don’t trust the UN. Got it. Do you have any other orginizations that have numbers related to relative healthcare performance that you do trust?
3 I’m talking about WHO stats in general. The url I referenced showed how easily stats can be manipulated. They showed the possibility that rankings could easily range significantly upward but for highly subjective criteria. No, we’re not #37. We’re somewhere north of there.
Well, we’re certainly #1 in spending! What do we get for all that money? Something north of #37 worldwide… awesome.
July 22nd, 2009 at 8:03 pmbelaccifer lacca says:
1 They don’t have a policy under a new plan. Why their exemption?
They keep their current coverage. Govt. Provided insurance.
2 Probably for the same reason I don’t trust them. They’re an arm of the UN. Any organization which puts countries Cuba, Pakistan, China, Kenya, Morocco, Egypt on the UN Human Rights Advisory Committee, I don’t trust.
Okay. You don’t trust the UN. Got it. Do you have any other orginizations that have numbers related to relative healthcare performance that you do trust?
3 I’m talking about WHO stats in general. The url I referenced showed how easily stats can be manipulated. They showed the possibility that rankings could easily range significantly upward but for highly subjective criteria. No, we’re not #37. We’re somewhere north of there.
Well, we’re certainly #1 in spending! What do we get for all that money? Something north of #37 worldwide… awesome.
———————————————
1 But will the new and improved gov plans be the same as they get now? Why the exception to any provision in the bill?
2 No.
3 Could be as high as 7 according to CATO.
….also
The Wonk Room “Rep. Steve King” by Andrea Nill
“There is no reference as to how many undocumented immigrants would be covered by the proposed health care bill because the entire CBO analysis was essentially written under the assumption that undocumented immigrants will not be eligible”.
Surely we’ll not turn away the 10 mill if they show up at the emergency room. Maybe the CBO should have run costs for their emergency room visits.
July 22nd, 2009 at 8:14 pmWe’re going in circles. You defend UHC largely by stats. I don’t completely trust stats although there is some measure of truth in them. That’s the bottom line. Therefore, I want to see certain assurances written into the bills. I think, as do most of us according to stats, many Congressmen are skunks and don’t trust them to do the right things. I don’t want any old bill passed and ‘work out the details later’. ‘Working out later’ is a backroom back scratching operation. Done, done, and done. Final, finis, finale.
July 22nd, 2009 at 8:26 pmNow one is saying, ‘work out the details later.’
The problem is that the republicans are determined to obstruct and delay any discussion of the details. Hence the memo above.
Studies may be my main defense of UHC, but there is a reason for that.
Studies are our best tool for determining what works and what doesn’t.
I have also included links to studies that show that the satisfaction of people with UHC is higher than Americans report.
But you don’t trust numbers. I wonder what you do trust? Your ‘assurances’ are mostly dodges and loopholes and all the amendments you have referred to that have been proposed were written at the specific behest of the health care lobby. That’s who I don’t trust.
The goal is universal coverage. It makes sense and saves money. Why should we wait?
July 22nd, 2009 at 8:33 pmSurely we’ll not turn away the 10 mill if they show up at the emergency room. Maybe the CBO should have run costs for their emergency room visits.
So now you agree that emergency rooms are an ineffective way to provide primary care?
Great!
Perhaps we do need to look at ways to provide coverage to these undocumented workers? They often have jobs, do they not? Perhaps something along the lines of the German model?
That’s something I could get behind.
July 22nd, 2009 at 8:38 pmI could maybe consider that but how bout encentivizing or encouraging them to go back home, then close the boarder? If we can’t do that we’ll eventually wind up with 50-60 mill illegals. The CBO ought to price them in.
July 22nd, 2009 at 9:40 pmor is it incentive
July 22nd, 2009 at 9:41 pmHey jackass, your Republicans just admitted they don’t have a plan, stick a fork up your own rearend dickwad.
July 23rd, 2009 at 9:22 ambelaccifer lacca says:
——————————————————————————–
stickaforkinus says: Recently, there has been great concern and angst about a gov program which has a ‘vast hole’ where many don’t get coverage. At the moment, I can’t remember which it is (some help please). Don’t we want assurances UHC has no holes. That’s why I say ‘may die’. We need to get it right.
This why I say all your ‘evidence’ is like an urban legend.
You’ve read or heard something but don’t remember quite what.
stickaforkinus says:
By Bob Graham
Posted: July 15, 2009
IFAwebnews.com
“The so-called doughnut hole that many Medicare Part D beneficiaries are finding themselves in with prescription drug coverage isn’t going to disappear for at least 12 years under a current proposal in the U.S. House of Representatives.”
Here’s the urban legend evidence. I would almost bet you knew what I was refering to in my post but weren’t honest enough to acknowledge the truth of it.
July 23rd, 2009 at 2:34 pmbelaccifer lacca says:
But you don’t trust numbers. I wonder what you do trust? Your ‘assurances’ are mostly dodges and loopholes and all the amendments you have referred to that have been proposed were written at the specific behest of the health care lobby. That’s who I don’t trust.
July 23rd, 2009 at 2:38 pm———————————————–
I’ll bet those people in the Part D loophole would like assurances in this new bill.
belaccifer lacca, Here’s a stat for you. There are polls that reveal most of Americans don’t want gov to pay for abortion. If a written assurance is not in the bill specifically mentioning abortion, then it will be paid for. What’s wrong with that assurance? This assurance is not a loophole. It’s absence would be a loophole.
July 23rd, 2009 at 2:46 pmbelaccifer lacca, I won’t even bother suggesting you go to the Heritage Foundation site to read some of their very legitimate arguments and suggestions. You want UHC now and don’t care what’s in it.
July 23rd, 2009 at 3:02 pmlink to above posted Graham quote….
July 23rd, 2009 at 3:06 pmhttp://politicsorpoppycock.com/2009/07/16/congress%E2%80%99-plan-means-medicare-%E2%80%98doughnut-hole%E2%80%99-might-remain-until-2021/
You dumb sh!t. The prescription drug plan was written and passed by your precious Republicans.
I didn’t think it was possible for you to get more stoooopid, but you keep surprising me.
July 23rd, 2009 at 4:11 pmcluelessshoeless, don’t you think it’s about time you moved out of mommies house and got a job? I hear McDonalds is hiring and don’t require a high school diploma.
July 23rd, 2009 at 4:30 pmStick… I’m for covering everyone’s prescriptions. That’s what single-payer and universal healthcare mean.
Glad you agree that’s important… seems a little stupid and counter-productive to demand that people who are falling through the cracks of the current (Republican written, BTW) Medicare system get ‘assurances’ that they will be covered before we agree to find a way to cover everyone, doesn’t it?
That’s what I’m arguing for… universal coverage. Let me know when that sinks in.
July 23rd, 2009 at 8:54 pmbelaccifer lacca says:
Stick… I’m for covering everyone’s prescriptions. That’s what single-payer and universal healthcare mean.
Glad you agree that’s important… seems a little stupid and counter-productive to demand that people who are falling through the cracks of the current (Republican written, BTW) Medicare system get ‘assurances’ that they will be covered before we agree to find a way to cover everyone, doesn’t it?
That’s what I’m arguing for… universal coverage. Let me know when that sinks in.
———————————————
July 23rd, 2009 at 11:12 pmI offered the drug problem as an example of holes left in passed laws and that people might want assurances in future laws that would resolve their problems. The pending UHC bills still might leave a donut hole in drugs, tests, proceedures, appliances, etc. UHC may or may not resolve the drug problem depending on what the UHC board deems allowable. The UHC bill might not wind up being as universal as advertised. Let me know when it sinks in.
belaccifer lacca says: Stick… I’m for covering everyone’s prescriptions. That’s what single-payer and universal healthcare mean.
July 23rd, 2009 at 11:27 pm—————————————
The plans before us don’t cover everyone. I’m not speaking of illegals, which is another topic. I think the hope of the current plans cover up to 95%. The devil is always in the details. After all, Obama wants this plan to be political, governed by politics. The plan says that 50% of the members on the Health Care Board are to be appointed by the Pres.
Universal health care doesn’t mean universal care.
July 23rd, 2009 at 11:30 pmOur current healthcare leaves around 40 million uninsured. I’m not speaking of the under insured, which is also a huge problem. And yet we pay more than anyone else in the world. MORE than anyone else in the world for WORSE coverage than EVERY other industrialized nation.
Let it sink in.
July 24th, 2009 at 12:05 amStick… I’m for covering everyone’s prescriptions. That’s what single-payer and universal healthcare mean.
Glad you agree that’s important… seems a little stupid and counter-productive to demand that people who are falling through the cracks of the current (Republican written, BTW) Medicare system get ‘assurances’ that they will be covered before we agree to find a way to cover everyone, doesn’t it?
——————————————————
It seems to me that demanding assurances is the only way to be assured that you will receive the coverage you are seeking and that a way will be found to cover your particular interest.
(who is demanding?)
The Blue Dogs are demanding assurances that certain criteria be met. This forces that a way will be found to accomodate their concerns. The writers of the bill have no interest in finding a way to cover their concerns if the Blue Dogs don’t demand assurances.
July 24th, 2009 at 12:19 amNo, stupid would be to not demand assurances that your concerns will be met.
belaccifer lacca says:
Our current healthcare leaves around 40 million uninsured. I’m not speaking of the under insured, which is also a huge problem. And yet we pay more than anyone else in the world. MORE than anyone else in the world for WORSE coverage than EVERY other industrialized nation.
Let it sink in.
—————————-
10 million illegals, 10 million who can buy but don’t.
” And yet we pay more than anyone else in the world”
Seems like we had that conversation days ago and you have repeatedly accused me for distracting. All you do is serve up the same old stale stats that come from sources with an agenda. How bout you post the big long list of your stats. I’ll read them and then we can get on with a conversation.
On second thought, don’t bother. I’m done. sitckaforkinme. Had all your denial, distraction, and deception I care for.
How did we stray from drug donut holes and assurances and not so universal UHC? Oh yeah, all you want to talk about are your stats.
July 24th, 2009 at 12:47 amDeleted my favorites link. won’t be back.
July 24th, 2009 at 12:52 amHow did we stray from drug donut holes and assurances and not so universal UHC? Oh yeah, all you want to talk about are your stats.
All I want to talk about is making sure that everyone is covered. That’s all I’ve ever wanted to discuss.
You don’t get to use Medicare Part D’s failure to fully cover people to argue against covering everyone. That’s part of what we’re trying to deal with.
Goodbye stickaforkinya!
July 24th, 2009 at 12:33 pmplease help thanks admin delete my post THANK YOU..nice article
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