Coal industry flack says mountaintop removal solves ‘lack of flat space’ in Appalachia.
Coal industry flack says mountaintop removal solves ‘lack of flat space’ in Appalachia.
The coal industry front group embroiled in an Astroturf scandal is now arguing that mountaintop removal coal mining helps communities “hampered because of a lack of flat space.” Joe Lucas, vice president of communications for the American Coalition for Clean Coal Electricity (ACCCE), told the Guardian that dynamiting the tops off of mountains is actually a boon to rural Appalachia:
I can take you to places in eastern Kentucky where community services were hampered because of a lack of flat space — to build factories, to build hospitals, even to build schools. In many places, mountain-top mining, if done responsibly, allows for land to be developed for community space.
Mountain-top mining has been more accurately described as the “rape of Appalachia,” as rural communities are destroyed economically and environmentally for coal industry profit. ACCCE’s Joe Lucas — who can’t even admit that coal pollution contributes to global warming — is giving new meaning to the idea of the Flat Earth Society. The Wonk Room has more.
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Good Lord… that really is just too F-in’ stupid for words.
Can this man even tie his own shoes w/out help?
August 4th, 2009 at 10:21 pmWTF? “lack of flat space’ in Appalachia.?
The Appalachians like it that way since it keeps idiots like Lucas away.
August 4th, 2009 at 10:24 pmYa know, I understand that to be a member of the right wing you have to be very stupid. But this really takes the cake. WOW.
August 4th, 2009 at 10:29 pmNo mention that the surroundings are usually so polluted that things like schools and hospitals cannot be built on such sites without very costly cleanup.
I don’t know how a state like West Virginia (poster child for Big Coal), known historically for its social and labor unrest, could allow themselves to be metaphorically raped yet again. And yet it has turned into the most likely place outside Texas you see a Confederate flag. Kind of ironic considering the state was founded because they seceded from Virginia, a confederate state.
August 4th, 2009 at 10:29 pmCoal industry flack says mountaintop removal solves ‘lack of flat space’ in Appalachia.
– - Joe’s got plenty of flat space on his noggin.
August 4th, 2009 at 10:31 pmYes, and if we actually step up the polluting of our rivers, they will become so dense with filth we can build factories on them. As an added bonus, we no longer will have to worry about the elites having waterfront property.
We can also stop all efforts at recycling and instead build mountains in the Plains states, complete with chalets. Put all that pesky nuclear waste in the center of these mountains, and they can glow in the dark. How pretty!
Then we can fill up the Great Lakes and rename them “Gate Lakes Estates”, huge gated communities built on landfill. Don’t worry about sink holes, the developers will be long gone by then.
Stop the efforts to rebuild NOLA and turn it into one big water park where the rides get especially exciting at certain times of the year.
Why, with creativity and good ole American ingenuity, there is simply no problem created by immoral corporations, lobbyists, and their congressional enablers that can’t be turned into even more profits.
PEACE
August 4th, 2009 at 10:36 pm….and a coal tailings dam break solves the problem of an abundance of drinking water, too.
Doesn’t Appalachia sound like it’s going to be made into another paradise?
Good thing it’s in the South, mostly.
August 4th, 2009 at 10:38 pmIf there is a region of America that “the man” has ever tried to keep poor and ignorant it is the Appalachians.
But I believe even the most ignorant backwoods people would rather their region not be destroyed by rich outsiders.
The eco-movement needs to reach out to these people.
August 4th, 2009 at 10:38 pmDear God! When will it end! Are we, the American people, this stupid? Hospitals? Schools? I think I’ll be sick. Yeah! Let’s pollute the rivers and and air! Now we will have space for our kids future! I’m numb. I’m going to get smashed or stoned or something.
August 4th, 2009 at 10:42 pmDidn’t one of these states just have a sludge spill that destroyed a entire town? Isn’t Erin Brokovich defending the plaintiffs right now? WTF?
August 4th, 2009 at 10:45 pmYeah, and death cures cancer, too.
August 4th, 2009 at 10:49 pmcd says:
But I believe even the most ignorant backwoods people would rather their region not be destroyed by rich outsiders.
The eco-movement needs to reach out to these people.
True cd. These folk supported mining because they needed the jobs. Mountaintop removal does not even provide the jobs in the quantity that underground mining did. The locals are beginning to wake up to the fact that the hard won union jobs that supported families for generations are disappearing along with their beloved homeland.
August 4th, 2009 at 10:54 pmOT- but is anyone watching Jon Stewart? – Grassly is showing a picture of a fire breathing dragon as an analogy, etc. ROTFL!
August 4th, 2009 at 11:14 pmOutstandingInMyField The thing that should really frighten locals about mountain top removal is that when the local mountains are gone they’re gone for good and there will be NO more mining for coal there which means NO more coal job in the area.
I know the Methodist Church is fighting mountaintop removal
http://archives.umc.org/interior_print.asp?ptid=4&mid=955
And I suspect the Catholic Church is doing the same.
If anyone reading this really want to stop mountaintop removal I recomend you get in contact with one of these Churchs and ask what can be done.
August 4th, 2009 at 11:35 pmNo mention of the pollution? No mention of lovely scenery? No mention of the damage they do? Why do we tollerate people who tell such bare-faced lies?
August 4th, 2009 at 11:43 pmThanx cd at #14. Good to know some christian churchs are ahead of my own on some social and environmental justice issues.
August 4th, 2009 at 11:48 pmMy family has roots in the coal mines of WV, and the explanation of why these companies get away with this kind of thing is tied up in the history of Appalachia; it involves corporate greed, political corruption, and co-opting the pride and the satisfaction of hard work to benefit out of state concerns. So when I wrote about this topic (focusing on WV) I included a brief overview of the situation and how in many ways it mirrors our national problems. In covering this most recent bit of ignorance on the topic I have added some specific events illustrating that this is just part of larger trend that has been going on for 150 years.
Some things to keep in mind:
*the more people know about this the more they are likely to strongly oppose it, so take advantage of groups like ILoveMountains.org.
*insulting the locals isn’t constructive; many of them are trapped by historical, educational, economic, and political factors that limit their choices and distort their perspective, but they are intelligent and proud so putting them on the defensive is counterproductive.
*some polls show a large majority of people in WV, one of the affected states, are against MTR!
MTR is devastating, and like all forms of coal mining require filling hollers and valleys with toxic sludge (see my second link for what happens when a poorly inspected and maintained dam burst), even as the air, water, and soil is contaminated and the wildlife/landscape is obliterated by the blasting and the huge rock/dirt movers. Many in Appalachia want to preserve the land and the mountains and wildlife for the future, but they tend to be among the poorest Americans and not very well represented in this area in the political arena.
Meanwhile, many people use MTR generated electricity every time they flip on a light switch (that includes you, Mr. President), often in ignorance. Many don’t even know about MTR, let alone whether their power provider uses MTR supplied coal. I mean, how many people heard about the celebrities arrested for protesting these practices? I’ll conclude with a video showing what happened this summer at an annual festival to celebrate the mountains/history and oppose MTR on private property: Thugs crash celebration, threaten children. Thanks for enduring my lengthy comment. :)
August 5th, 2009 at 12:20 amgood posts. HAHA spencermom! I thought I was the only one that noticed that. They like to do that out here west of chicago. Developers will go in, drain wetlands, clear forests, fill in rivers, and drive off the wildlife. Then put a housing development on top and call it something like “Deer-River Nature Meadows.” Makes me feel confused.
Back OT, you forgot one. Wanna fix that pesky California always sliding away from the San Andreas? Let’s just have everyone on the west coast chuck their garbage in the Pacific until there is a big enough land mass to annex.
August 5th, 2009 at 12:34 amYup, the wetlands are in the same boat. Fill it in, ground it down, and pave over it. What is the ultimate vision here? A sea-to-sea flat patch of concrete?
But hey, companies have been treating places like the Appalachians as some kind of colony for over a century. They used to use force to put down those pesky mountain folk when they questioned company practices, now they just resort to (il)legal intimidation and smear campaigns. I mean, us folk from the hills and mountains, we’s all just a buncha know-nothin’ hicks I reckon, s’far as ‘em folks next door in Dee See is concerned. Hyuck hyuck hyuck.
August 5th, 2009 at 1:08 amHmm. There seems to be a lot of flat space on the top of the heads of many Republicans. Underdeveloped no doubt.
O/T: some youth Americans seem to have to travel to the far ends of the earth to find big trouble. Why did these two female “journalists” who were looking for sexual exploitation have to fly into commmunist China and then walk into communist Korea? They could have just stayed in Los Angeles… Idiots.
August 5th, 2009 at 1:12 amAnd those three hikers who had to visit war-torn Iraq (torn up by US imperial aggression) to go hiking? And then wander into Iran… More American stupidity. Our cluelessness and arrogance is known over the world…
If they keep blowing up mountain tops then how can the repugs say they were hiking in the mountains when they were really screwing their interns,secratary`s,TV reporters….
August 5th, 2009 at 1:44 amNo enduring necessary, tinythinker @ 17.
Lyrics to John Prine’s Paradise-
When I was a child my family would travel
August 5th, 2009 at 2:05 amDown to Western Kentucky where my parents were born
And there’s a backwards old town that’s often remembered
So many times that my memories are worn.
And daddy won’t you take me back to Muhlenberg County
Down by the Green River where Paradise lay
Well, I’m sorry my son, but you’re too late in asking
Mister Peabody’s coal train has hauled it away
Well, sometimes we’d travel right down the Green River
To the abandoned old prison down by Airdrie Hill
Where the air smelled like snakes and we’d shoot with our pistols
But empty pop bottles was all we would kill.
Then the coal company came with the world’s largest shovel
And they tortured the timber and stripped all the land
Well, they dug for their coal till the land was forsaken
Then they wrote it all down as the progress of man.
When I die let my ashes float down the Green River
Let my soul roll on up to the Rochester dam
I’ll be halfway to Heaven with Paradise waitin’
Just five miles away from wherever I am.
Yeah, we tried the whole attempting to control the landscape in the early 1900’s in the mid-west. That insane idea that we can manipulate the land to fit our needs with no consequences led to the dust bowl.
August 5th, 2009 at 2:20 am.
Dear Joe Lucas,
And a full head shave would solve that comb over issue, too.
.
August 5th, 2009 at 2:27 am.
R E M E M B E R:
Joe Lucas will say anything, do anything, just for the money…
… Just like that Five and Dime hooker downtown.
.
August 5th, 2009 at 2:29 amI don’t know how a state like West Virginia (poster child for Big Coal), known historically for its social and labor unrest, could allow themselves to be metaphorically raped yet again. And yet it has turned into the most likely place outside Texas you see a Confederate flag. Kind of ironic considering the state was founded because they seceded from Virginia, a confederate state.
August 5th, 2009 at 2:30 amReminds me of the book “Toxic Sludge Is Good For You”.
subtitled: Lies, Damn Lies and the Public Relations Industry
by John Stauber and Sheldon Rampton
August 5th, 2009 at 3:26 amIf you want flat land — move to it.
August 5th, 2009 at 5:10 amYes, lets flatten the earth and pave it over with asphalt, thats a great plan if I evah heard one.
August 5th, 2009 at 5:15 am“Merchants have no country. The mere spot they stand on does not constitute so strong an attachment as that from which they draw their gains. I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.”
August 5th, 2009 at 5:40 am- Thomas Jefferson
Wow, I never knew the purple mountains majesty was a threat to our great ally, and saviour, flatness.
War on the Slopers!!
August 5th, 2009 at 5:43 amThe guy in that picture above looks like a very angry rapist.
August 5th, 2009 at 6:26 amPerry logan says:
<blockquote>”Merchants have no country. The mere spot they stand on does not constitute so strong an attachment as that from which they draw their gains. I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.”
- Thomas Jefferson
Because, Perry, it bears repeating.
It’s amazing how those who bastardize the words of our Founding Fathers always manage to gloss over those words which don’t suit their agenda. I was constantly reminded of Ben Franklin’s words:
when we were told we must give up our rights to privacy and habeas corpus, and that unlawful search and seizure were necessary for national security. The original authors of the Constitution would be horrified at the ease with which America was willing to give up it’s rights and liberties.
PEACE
August 5th, 2009 at 7:11 amHe forgot to mention that with the flat land on top of the mountains, they’ll also cut down on their heating bills since they’re that much closer to the sun.
Jebus, what an idjit.
August 5th, 2009 at 7:14 amThe American Taliban will not be happy until America looks like a wasteland. Like Oscar the Grouch, they too enjoy having filthy surroundings!
August 5th, 2009 at 7:19 amThe giant Pacific plastic garbage patch is good because soon people will be able to build sea-side homes there.
August 5th, 2009 at 7:30 amUnfreakingbelievable. This is so much like saying global warming is good because it keeps people’s heating bills low.
August 5th, 2009 at 7:39 amThe Pacific garbage patch isn’t the only one. It’s the only one that’s been somewhat studied. They’re sending an expedition to do more research now and try to come up with ways to remove it, if possible. There are actually other huge plastic garbage patches in the South Pacific, North Atlantic, South Atlantic and elsewhere. Anywhere ocean currents form an eddy.
August 5th, 2009 at 7:44 amI think plastics should be banned although it’s such an integral part of our lives now. Think of all the people who could be employed fabricating the things they used to do that plastic replaced or go to a type of benign but durable plant starch material that degrades naturally when exposed to UV rays from the sun. It could be like a water bottle that wouldn’t melt if wet but outside in the sun, it breaks down to natural organics. Why do we have to use petroleum?
August 5th, 2009 at 7:54 amIt’s times like this I ask myself, why haven’t we invested in alternative fuels? The technology is there. Instead of poisoning our planet, why not invest is solar panels to keep our homes warm? Why not do what the Europeans do? Recycle EVERYTHING. In Germany, there are trash receptacles everywhere. They recycle everything from cardboard to paper. Dear Lord. And Mr. Cobb, you are right about the scientists. But what bothers me is that MSM barely talks about it. There is a mass of plastic the size of a small state, and yet, MSM doesn’t even talk about it. To me, that is alarming. Americans should see that hideous thing. But nobody talks about it. Depressing.
August 5th, 2009 at 8:06 amIt would be the ultimate darkest humor if with human caused global warming and rising sea levels, the last of humanity was forced to live on a giant plastic garbage patch in the middle of the ocean, like Waterworld.
August 5th, 2009 at 8:10 am(wipes coffee off laptop, shirt, etc)
I’m so grateful for air pollution, ’cause it give us those beautiful, rosy sunsets…
August 5th, 2009 at 8:16 amTo me, that is alarming. Americans should see that hideous thing. But nobody talks about it. Depressing.
There are actual huge death walls of plastic bags and other plastics that have somehow melted together and sweep the oceans, scooping up everything it its patch in the currents including coral reefs.
August 5th, 2009 at 8:19 amwildwilly@42, As Marge commented to Homer after he used Plutonium to fertilize his crops, “It’s eerily beautiful.”
August 5th, 2009 at 8:26 amThere are actual ideas about building some type of huge floating factory out there that would troll around scooping up the stuff and running on energy from burning the plastic. What could possible go wrong? I think the best method is to ban the manufacture of plastics and let it slowly remove itself over a couple hundred years. Lesson learned.
August 5th, 2009 at 8:33 amAs someone from the area in question (the area I live in is in the foothills of the Appalachians in Northern Kentucky), I will admit that he is correct that the mountains do cause problems with transportation, emergency services, construction of vital community buildings like hospitals and schools, bus routes, and even utilties management. But you know what? They have always been able to come up with a solution without the “help” of the coal industry.
That said, the solution is NOT to flatten it. As much flack as the Appalachians get (and thank you, tinythinker, for your posts), most seem to forget that the reason that so many are poor, uneducated, and unhealthy are because of people like Joe Lucas who think that they are the ones who can “fix” the problem by raping our landscape, and forcing dangerous industry on the area with the purpose of lining corporate pockets. Instead of letting communities thrive on their own, they decided that they could “help” by bringing in an industry that ruins the natural beauty of the area, pillages the natural resources, and offers the people the illusion of a better life, all the while subjecting them to the deadly affects of coal mining. Who wants to live next to a strip mine?
The decimation of the land and the adverse affects on the population is a much larger problem than the mountains. Thanks to strip mining, previously unheard of landslides happen with relative frequency. Thanks to underground mining, one of the major causes of death in this population is black lung (supplemented by the utter lack of healthcare, of course).
You aren’t helping, you’re only making it worse. You’re tying people to an area by keeping them too poor, dumb, and unhealthy to be able to do anything about it. You want to help Appalachia, sir? Then get the f uck out of it and let Appalachians live their own lives, free of your corrupt and destructive industry.
August 5th, 2009 at 8:42 amJoe Lucas looks like that sneaky German in the movie, Saving Private Ryan.
August 5th, 2009 at 8:53 amThere is no “CLEAN COAL”…Clean coal is a flat out lie. Oil is going to run out and to extract what is left will push energy costs even higher with much more destruction to the environment. The coalers are running out of plausible excuses for the wanton destruction of the environment for money. Why is it so hard to get the mind around the idea we should be developing renewable and sustainable energy sources now before our petroleum based society grinds to a halt, putting us back into the stone age? Does this dude believe his own lies??? As*hat.
August 5th, 2009 at 8:56 amCountry Roads – John Denver
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eaaR1Ay5P0
August 5th, 2009 at 9:00 amWestern Kentucky’s issue is different, but no less destructive: strip mining. I have in-laws from Muhlenberg County, and the drive west is marked by gray, starkly flat terrain in a state usually known for its rolling green hills. The eastern part of the state looks like another world, with its mountains, forests, and breathtaking views.
No, Mr. Lucas, we’d like to keep our state’s natural beauty. The coal industry has done ENOUGH to destroy the terrain in the west without also getting to wreck the east (where they already are directly responsible for generations of indentured servitude).
August 5th, 2009 at 9:46 am@Cleo the Muse
You are also from Eastern Kentucky?
Beautiful, isn’t it? Makes you wonder how anyone could look at those mountains and see anything but the majesty of mother nature. It’s incredible that something so wonderful has been turned into yet another profit-seeking, environment-destroying, industry.
How many people do you know who have died or are dying of black lung?
August 5th, 2009 at 10:07 amsmidget, I’m from central Ky, but I’ve been to and through eastern Ky many times, and may be going to college in Richmond starting in the spring.
It’s a primitive sort of beauty “in the hills”, though, and these “flat toppers” would be surprised if they actually visited and discovered what all can be built on the side of a mountain.
And if anyone thinks eastern Kentuckians can’t get by without outside help, they haven’t heard about Berea College!
August 5th, 2009 at 10:30 amWhen are these companies going to learn that destroying the environment is NOT an option? You live in a mountainous region, of course you have minimal flat space. What a bunch or morons.
August 5th, 2009 at 10:43 amFox News exclusive: Mountains aren’t flat, oceans are wet, and it’s all Obama’s fault!
August 5th, 2009 at 10:58 amOh…EKU ahoy, huh?
Just promise that you’ll actually do your course work instead of falling into the unbelievable parties that EKU is notorious for. LOL! Just kidding. If the cops can get away with it, why can’t everyone else, am I right?
I’m from Ashland, in Northeastern KY. Actually, I work in Ashland, I live in Grayson. Nice little town. I grew up here, so I can’t help but love it.
I’m am consistently amazed at these mountain towns. People seem to think that these poor poor people just can’t get by without help. Pfft. Like you said, they haven’t been there.
I’d encourage anyone who likes the outdoors to visit. There are literally dozens of state parks, and several national ones, in Kentucky, and we are serious about protecting them, and are becoming more and more concerned with protecting the beauty of Kentucky as a whole, which is why most people around here are completely opposed to strip-mining and mountain-top removal.
If one really wants to know what Appalachia is all about, they are more than welcome to come visit. We love outsiders, as long as they don’t try to chop the tops off of our mountains!
August 5th, 2009 at 11:15 amGoing with the rapture theme of many of these neocons, you must remember (from memory, I think its around Isaiah 39 or 40):
Every Valley shall be exalted
August 5th, 2009 at 11:46 amEvery Hill Made Low
The crooked straight
and the rough places Plain.
Aghh, whole comment lost… starting over…
To address the “acting against their self-interest” question:
[boring history]
[/boring history]
It’s good to see some Kentuckians represented – I guess we have something in common other than competing over which state gets labeled most backward in the union ;o) And you are right – while MTR is like the nuke-yu-lar option of coal mining, strip mines and other practices are also very harmful and just as deserving of a place in the conservation spotlight.
Plus, there is more going on than just opposing MTR/strip mining and supporting alternative fuels. There are movements that are also looking forward with optimism, re-imagining the region and hoping to inspire new sustainable economies that compliment Appalachian culture and natural beauty. So smile, it isn’t all bad. There are creative new types of industry and commerce waiting to be born that can help us resolve the dominion of Big Coal and move on to a brighter future.
August 5th, 2009 at 2:45 pmI’m surprised with the number of Kentuckians I’ve come across on this site.
I suppose we’re not all backwards, huh?
I always said that my family was average, aside from being slightly more enlightened politically and philisophically. Glad to know that I may have to start thinking about taking that last part back. :)
August 5th, 2009 at 3:30 pmAye, EKU… I’ve noted which residence halls have the most Greek chapters, and have selected the OTHER buildings on my housing application. I’m too “old” (25) to deal with the stereotypical college party-going!
Ditto on the parks. Mammoth Cave, for example, is more than just a big hole in the ground: the park itself is GORGEOUS! And speaking of “gorge”-us, eastern Ky has the incomparable Red River Gorge… Mr. Lucas would probably like to destroy the Natural Bridge to make way for a Wal*Mart.
August 5th, 2009 at 4:10 pmEr, I mean “I agree with you” on the parks. Not sure what I was “ditto”-ing to there… :D
August 5th, 2009 at 4:13 pmI agree 100%. Also wanted to note, in case anyone is still paying attention, this park is pretty well on-topic – Jenny Wiley. Man, oh, man. The views are incredible.
I highly recommend it.
Good luck at school! About half of my family went to EKU, and they loved it. I’m sure you will, too.
August 5th, 2009 at 5:14 pm