Second lawmaker receives threatening ‘Death to All Marxists’ fax with Obama’s picture on it.
By on Aug 12th, 2009 at 10:52 am
Second lawmaker receives threatening ‘Death to All Marxists’ fax with Obama’s picture on it.
Last week, The Hill reported that Rep. Brian Baird’s (D-WA) office had received a fax that depicted President Barack Obama as the Joker and warned of “Death to All Marxists! Foreign and Domestic!” The Secret Service has said that the fax was “potentially an investigative intelligence matter.” Now, a second member of Congress is reporting that he received the same fax. On CNN this morning, Rep. David Scott (D-GA) — whose office was recently vandalized with a swastika — held up a printout of the fax, adding that the picture of Obama he received had “the swastika on his forehead.” Watch it:
Scott said that the fax also included racial slurs aimed at him and the statement “the Ethiopian cannot make himself white.”
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Second lawmaker receives threatening ‘Death to All Marxists’ fax with Obama’s picture on it.
– - The sooner the legal authorities start hauling some people in for fingerprinting the sooner this nonsense will stop.
August 12th, 2009 at 10:56 amI’m so glad that the Right Wing has elevated the level of discourse in this country…
/snark
August 12th, 2009 at 10:58 amThe full quote from the Bible (KJV) is “Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots?” (Jer. 13:23 Jeremiah wasn’t making a racial comment, but some nut is apparently taking it that way.
August 12th, 2009 at 10:59 amI find it odd that the secret service is considering investigating. This is the same group that arrested a kid in spokane for drawing pictures of Bush being hung. They seem to not be to concerned with threats to Obama.
August 12th, 2009 at 11:00 amNo matter how crafty the people who are sending these faxes believe themselves to be, no question that the FBI, NSA and Secret Service know exactly who they are and what they are doing, who they are associating with, every minute of every day.
Start hauling these asshats in in cuffs! What’s it going to take, the attempted or actual killing of an elected official, to start making arrests?
Gee, if only those making threats were Muslims…
PEACE
August 12th, 2009 at 11:01 amDid the spell Ethiopian correctly?
August 12th, 2009 at 11:02 amwhat about “they”?
August 12th, 2009 at 11:02 amignorant right wingers acting out in fear, attempting to terrorize America into giving up the gains we’ve made
these pansies need to realize that liberals will not be intimidated by their childish antics
August 12th, 2009 at 11:03 am“I’ve got to lose this skin, I’m imprisoned in”
August 12th, 2009 at 11:03 amPerhaps the Dept. of Fatherland Security could prepare a report on the potential right wing extremist violence? Then the NSA could warrantlessly wiretap those individuals and groups. After which, the FBI could issue those NSLetters to obtain their private data. Alert the TSA to put these troublemakers on the Do-Not-Fly list. And, the folks at the Justice Dept.’s voting section could ‘lose’ their voter’s registration right before the next election. Lastly, the ATF could raid and seize their weapons.
(caution: this post includes large quantities of snark.)
August 12th, 2009 at 11:04 amwhoever sent that fax should be arrested immediately…
although obama is obviously not a marxist… i think its pretty clear that this is a threat on the life of the president.
this is unacceptable and cannot be tolerated.
what i find most upsetting is the people carrying signs with swastikas and disrupting town hall meetings over necessary health care reform were the same people who said it was un-american to protest an actually CRIMINAL administration.
these people are pathetic… and certainly not patriots
August 12th, 2009 at 11:04 amthreatening elected officials is not the american way. it’s time to start cuffing and stuffing these arseholes and those who are fanning the flames of this; for example tub-o-lard limpballs and glenda becky.
August 12th, 2009 at 11:06 amPerhaps Gitmo should remain open, looks like it will be needed to house all our domestic terrorists and would be assassins.
August 12th, 2009 at 11:08 amIt is truly pathetic that these so-called patriots think that Obama administration and the Dems are anti-American, yet they were no where to be found when the Bushies suspended habeas corpus, violated every Americans right to privacy, repealed the right to free speech by instituting “free speech zones,” and nearly (had Cheney gotten his way) decided to use our military in our own cities and towns as law enforcement in clear violation of the law! Talk about ANTI-AMERICAN!
These people are not patriots. They are not American. They do not stand for America, the constitution, nor the Bill of Rights.
The are merely violent, racist cowards who do what they are told to do by the right-wing machine.
August 12th, 2009 at 11:08 amBong hits for Jesus = arrest and conviction
Death to the President = we’re looking into it
PEACE
August 12th, 2009 at 11:08 am***
it was sent by a troll.
:|
August 12th, 2009 at 11:09 amweren’t the cancervatives pissing their pants over the NSA reports on right wing deomestic terrorism a few months ago? truth hurts, doesn’t it?
August 12th, 2009 at 11:09 amPresident Obama won with a clear majority and this is how the pathetic bunch of losers act. Imagine if the Supreme Court had crowned him President like they did with Bush.
August 12th, 2009 at 11:10 amWhen this whole thing blows up, people like Hannity, Beck, Limbaugh and OReilly will crawl under their rocks and deny having any influence on the people involved. I hope they are held responsible for their words and dragged into court for inciting a riot and are held as accessories to murder for any deaths.
August 12th, 2009 at 11:12 amArrests, public trials and public executions; that will put an end to it, and an end to the fascist Republican Party.
August 12th, 2009 at 11:16 amMore madness from the anti-free-speech, anti-health-care-reform ultra-rabid right-whiners.
If they truly supported free-speech, then they’d want to hear from everyone, but they don’t. They only want to scream their fool heads off, and be obstructionist.
August 12th, 2009 at 11:17 amthey deny having influence while selling that influence to their advertisers
August 12th, 2009 at 11:17 amHopefully the FBI will be spending some time with the dick weed who showed up at the town hall meeting with the 9mm strapped to his leg.
August 12th, 2009 at 11:17 amWho would Jesus assasinate?
August 12th, 2009 at 11:17 amThe Right Wing has already planned for this scenario I’m sure. When arrests begin (and I strongly feel that they should) the RW will push their meme that the arrests PROVE their theory of Obama being a dictator trying to silence the opposition through unwarrented arrests. This would be a lie of course but fits right in with their usual MO. The irony that is lost on these astro-turf LIVs is that the dissent that they are enjoying right now would never have been tolerated by the Bush Administration. Their groups would have been infiltrated and the leaders likely wisked off without a word. The fools are so blind with hatred of liberals and black people that they can’t see that it is BECAUSE of a Democratically run government right now that they are free to walk the streets and spread their stupidity.
August 12th, 2009 at 11:18 amOMFG, The nutters have discovered how to send picture telegrams! DOG help us all if they should discover how to project moving pictures into boxes, with NO WIRES!!
August 12th, 2009 at 11:18 am#17 – joe cantwell says:
———————————————————
“it was sent by a troll.
:|”
August 12th, 2009 at 11:09 am
It’s better to call them what they truly are: anti-free-speech, pro-insurance-profit toadies.
August 12th, 2009 at 11:18 am***
#20,
this will go bad.
and an army of class action lawsuits
will line up against fox, myriad pacs,
the rnc and other lobbying groups who
fomented this tragedy. they will be de-funded
out of existence. and rupert murdoch will be deported.
:
August 12th, 2009 at 11:19 amThe fax was paraphrasing part of Jeremiah 13:23:
Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots?
Here’s the rest of the verse:
Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.
This last sentence fits the sender of the fax perfectly.
August 12th, 2009 at 11:19 amStay classy wingnuts. You are proving over and over that you are as bad as any enemy we have overseas. You are nothing but worthless, anti-American domestic terrorists and should be dealt with accordingly. Your stupidity will come back to haunt you.
August 12th, 2009 at 11:21 amThe Reichwing is creating Timothy McVeigh’s ever day with their hysteria. I’d love to see a poll among the birthers/teabaggers/Palinites/etc as to whether they view McVeigh as a terrorist or a hero.
August 12th, 2009 at 11:22 amI think the secret service is stretched thin right now, with the average daily threats against the President at 30. A recent article stated they didn’t want to publicly acknowledge this for fear of copycat threats etc.
That being said, I think it’s imperative that as individuals, we speak up when we hear or see this type of behavior…public shaming may not stop the hardcore crazies, but it can have an effect on the ones not so far gone…
For the rest of them, the Military Commissions Act of 2006 allows the President to declare anyone an enemy combatant…
:|
August 12th, 2009 at 11:24 amWell, we may have to cut corporate tax incentives and double the FBI and Secret Service budget. I’d like to start an “adopt anti-domestic terrorist agent” program. Friggen wackos are going to regret the Patriot Act.
August 12th, 2009 at 11:25 amYa got nothing, brownshirts. Nothing to offer, nothing to help, nothing to say, so all you can do is rant and scream like the pissy little babies you are. Pathetic.
August 12th, 2009 at 11:25 amSomebody’s gonna get killed.
Then the shIte will hit the fan.
Congrats, Rush, Sarah, Benn.
August 12th, 2009 at 11:25 amTraitors.
A Patriotic Anopheles Acting says: The Right Wing has already planned for this scenario I’m sure.
There should be a source phone-number on top of the fax. If not, then the phone log for the receiving number can be requested and that will reveal the source number.
Either the ‘faxist’ is an idiot (about technology, I mean)or he wants to be found, so he can be arrested, so he can be a martyr, so the rest of mob can shout “HELP HELP He’ being oppressed! Come and see the violence inherent in the system!” and thus prove that Obama is Hitler (or Stalin, or Kenyan, or the Anti Christ).
August 12th, 2009 at 11:26 amCan we send domestic terrorists to Gitmo? I mean, terrorist is a terrorist right?
August 12th, 2009 at 11:28 amAl faxes are stamped with the sending phone number. How smart is this person sending the faxes? Obviously not a grammar school graduate.
August 12th, 2009 at 11:29 amI mean, terrorist is a terrorist right?
August 12th, 2009 at 11:29 am— Well except for the ones that are freedom fighters…
Preciselt the scenario I feel they are hoping for 5th Estate
August 12th, 2009 at 11:30 amright wingers on tv exploit the ignorance and cowardice of their base, trying to convince the base that they are like a cornered dog and have no choice but to bite
August 12th, 2009 at 11:32 amPlease don’t vote for any repiggies this fall for local elections.
They know about this stuff, but they go along with it.
Make your vote count locally.
August 12th, 2009 at 11:33 am5th Estate says: “or Kenyan”–
LOL
Jambo meme rafiki yongo…want to buy a carved giraffe?
August 12th, 2009 at 11:34 amCould this be the second coming of an American Civil War ???
August 12th, 2009 at 11:35 amIt is scary, but mostly sad,
to see so many Americans regressing to a 19th century mindset
of bigotry and intolerance.
I thought we had come so far.
It truly breaks my heart…
August 12th, 2009 at 11:35 amCan I get an elephant? My daughter just adores elephants…
August 12th, 2009 at 11:37 ampastcaring says:
For the rest of them, the Military Commissions Act of 2006 allows the President to declare anyone an enemy combatant…
August 12th, 2009 at 11:24 am
_____________
Let’s hope it doesn’t come to that.
In fact, let’s make our voices heard and ensure that it doesn’t come to that.
This emerging threat of domestic terrorism presents a wonderful crisitunity for those of us who still believe in the rule of law. Despite some of the snarky rhetoric in this thread, we don’t need public executions, indefinite detention, or enemy combatant status to fight this menace.
The basic fact is that these domestic terrorists can be brought to justice using the tools already available in the criminal justice system. If we are true progressives, we believe that good police work, diligent investigation, warranted wiretapping, arrests on conspiracy charges, and fair trials by impartial juries will take care of this problem.
No need for torture. No need for barbarism. No need for suspending habeas corpus. No need to further shred our Constitution. The rule of law can win over terrorism.
August 12th, 2009 at 11:39 amAt least NOW we can answer the question we’ve asked of republicans over and over again since 2004:
Who the hell would vote for George Bush AGAIN?
Here they are!! The racists are now outted and they’re PROUD . .
Glad they’re all on video so that history can document ‘their NON-ISSUES’ and look back with repulsion kind of like we look at the Gov. George Wallace refusal to integrate the schools and German Shepherds were brought in to scare kids . .
August 12th, 2009 at 11:39 amdbadass says: [I mean, terrorist is a terrorist right?
--- Well except for the ones that are freedom fighters...]
Yes of course, I forgot about Che`. May God I mean Mao reat his soul.
August 12th, 2009 at 11:40 amThe talking heads who are stirring the pot of hatred are the real criminals.
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
Voltaire
August 12th, 2009 at 11:42 am50
August 12th, 2009 at 11:43 amI was thinking more about those Contras…
I worry that the intention of the nut cases sending these faxes and spray painting the swastikas and hanging Congressmen in effigy is to get arrested…just to prove their point that they are living in martial law, that the government is acting like facists, and to further the insanity.
August 12th, 2009 at 11:43 amThere is no rule of law in America until Bush and Cheney are behind bars.
August 12th, 2009 at 11:44 amdbadass says: “Can I get an elephant? My daughter just adores elephants…”
INDIO! Tembo mingi sana! Not many peoples buy elephants nowdays.
August 12th, 2009 at 11:46 amI agree on the MCA 2006. I refer to it to point out the fact that these same ‘tools’ the wingers advocated when Bush was in office can be used against them by the govt…I think solid investigation and prosecution are the best tools…but my point was that it would be ironic if the old Bushco tools were used against the ‘tools’…
August 12th, 2009 at 11:47 amdbadass says: “I was thinking more about those Contras…”
Yes of course. What was I thinking.
August 12th, 2009 at 11:49 amNow Obama is a Marxist? And born in Ethiopia?
I thought he was a dirty socialist commie fascist nazi who was born in Kenya. I’m so confused…
August 12th, 2009 at 11:49 amYes of course. What was I thinking
August 12th, 2009 at 11:52 am—
I don’t know. Was it something about Chechen seperatists?
barracks9 says: “I worry that the intention of the nut cases sending these faxes and spray painting the swastikas and hanging Congressmen in effigy is to get arrested…just to prove their point that they are living in martial law, that the government is acting like facists, and to further the insanity”
Oh there will be nothing better than a spontaneous revolution. Republican voter rolls will be srinking quite rapidly I suspect.
August 12th, 2009 at 11:52 amTPM is reporting another Democratic Congressman, Rep. Moore of Kansas, has received two threats in the last ten days, and is not holding any town halls as a result.
August 12th, 2009 at 11:53 amZooey:
August 12th, 2009 at 11:54 amIt is all very confusing and technical. I think it might be best if some drugg idled college dropout tried to explain it to you in between attempts to hawk adjustable beds…
These sheeple are being duped into this by fear mongering from Becky,Limpballs and Insanity………….these are same tactics used by the Nazi`s who were more aligned with the Right because they were racist and were against any type of constitutional laws that protected it`s citizens.
August 12th, 2009 at 11:56 amThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
#61 – ralph the wonder llama says:
———————————————————-
“TPM is reporting another Democratic Congressman, Rep. Moore of Kansas, has received two threats in the last ten days, and is not holding any town halls as a result.”
August 12th, 2009 at 11:53 am
The anti-free-speech, pro-insurance-profit radicals are showing their true colors!
August 12th, 2009 at 11:57 amkasinka @51
So true.
These are the actions of those that hold false truths based on lies.
The root of terrorism.
August 12th, 2009 at 11:57 amThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
The corporate masters who have been pulling the corporate media strings all these years must be thrilled their divide and conquer strategy for the sheep is going as planned.
August 12th, 2009 at 11:59 amToo many cops and Chiefs of Police are sympathetic to these windowlickers.
That’s why Lefties get tased and clubbed and locked up (and tailed by agents)for standing around with signs, while these righty handjobs pack heat and scream and issue death threats, then head off to Cracker Barrel for dinner and home to watch their charles mansons on Fox.
“The Law” isn’t going to work on them the way it always works on us. And they’re counting on that.
August 12th, 2009 at 11:59 am#64 – aaronk says:
——————————————————–
“Is it really fair to put all “right wingers” in the category with this crazy person who is threatening the life of the President? Clearly he is mentally disturbed. Should we put all liberals into the same category as the crazy man who killed shot and killed the military recruiters a few months ago?”
August 12th, 2009 at 11:57 am
The right-whiners have already lumped all left-leaning people into a oh-so convenient group, so it’s apropos that we return the favor.
Remember, Jesus said to treat others as you want them to treat you, and the right-whiners “claim” to follow Jesus, so they shouldn’t be surprised when it happens, right?
August 12th, 2009 at 12:00 pmYes of course. ‘Was it something about Chechen seperatists?”
I think Cheech gave up separations years ago after alimony payments.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:00 pmaaronk – back to history class Bud – there’s some stuff you can’t learn on the teevee.
hijack this thread and there’ll be hell to pay lil feller.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:00 pmNo he wasn’t…just because the word socialist was used as in “national socialist” does not mean Hitler was a socialist–this is a rieghtwing meme…
Epic Fail
:|
August 12th, 2009 at 12:02 pmSo now Democrats are Marxist Nazis. And I thought they were jumbo shrimp.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:03 pmClearly, this “crazy person who is threatening the life of the President” IS a right-winger, and represents a sizable portion of the energy driving the birthers and the deathers.
So it would NOT be fair to treat him as some isolated, apolitical wuirk of human psychology.
No, but several trolls on these boards tried to do just that. But that aside, there is no wide-scale movement among the Left the disparages the military — certainly nothing comparable to the birther movement on the Right, or those who claim baselessly that Obama is a “Marxist”.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:04 pmaaronk says:
christopher, Hitler was a socialist/communist and you think he was “more aligned with the right”? really?
August 12th, 2009 at 11:58 am
Get thee to a library, ignoramus.
Jeebus, I’m tired of these uneducated freaks.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:06 pmHitler was no more a socialist than Kim Jong Il is a “Democratic People’s Republican”.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:06 pmaaronk, could I bother you to please direct me to a credible source that states the shooter you’re talking about is a “liberal?” Thank you.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:08 pmaaronk
August 12th, 2009 at 12:09 pmTry using the word fascism. It is super popular these days. You’ll be cool. Here’s the thing though… You have to use it incorrectly…
aaronk,
You don’t seriously expect us to believe that you think Hitler was a socialist, do you?
I mean, you can’t be that stupid, can you?
August 12th, 2009 at 12:10 pmWell, is it time to start a pool as to when one of these fascist aholes kills someone?
It’s only a matter of time now.
My dollar is on September 8th.
Fcuk the Republic Fascist Party
August 12th, 2009 at 12:13 pmI’m sure he is just another “lone wolf”. It seems the GOP is becoming the LWP, the Lone Wolf Party.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:15 pmSorry for only fingering the Right Wing aaronk, sorry to offend your stoopid @ss. Allow me to add the healthcare industry corporations, their lobbyists who are driving this crazy bus, the unstable entertainers at FOX News, the LIV mouthbreathing, racist tea-baggers, their birther, deather and astro-turf inspired friends along with the Right Wing are hoping for an arrest so they can “prove” to their ill-informed mobs that Obama is a fascist dictator.
You are ignorant of both history (Hitler/Nazi Germany) and the present day attack on a US military facility.
Maybe it wouldn’t be so easy to equate the Right Wing of the Republic Party with these loons if they weren’t the ones publicly stoking their fears (Bachman, Boehner, Cantor, Rove, Gingrich etc) or if their media darlings weren’t as crazy as a shithouse rat (Beck, Limbaugh, O’Reilly, Malkin) or if the public face of these Town Hall disrupters didn’t resemble the cast of “One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest”
August 12th, 2009 at 12:16 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
I wish I could vote you up more than once…especially for the last paragraph…
LMAO
:]
August 12th, 2009 at 12:23 pmSince he was a socialist, why did Hitler send all of the socialists to re-education camps? I’m so confused.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:23 pmThere is a difference between alternative viewpoints and just being plain incorrect when using terms that do in fact have definitions and historical contexts…
August 12th, 2009 at 12:23 pmaaronk says:
Hate to “hijack your thread” with alternative viewpoints.
Or did you mean with ignorant, distortions of misinformation?
Yeah, I thought you meant that.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:24 pmaaronk says:
Hate to “hijack your thread” with ignorant viewpoints.
Fixed it for ya aaron.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:24 pmThe fascist Republicans are organizing along the lines of the Taliban. They are forming small cells that act independently, with general guidance being fed to them from Limbaugh and Beck.
Republican = domestic terrorist.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:24 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
Alternate viewpoints are one thing, we have them all the time on this very board–scroll up…
What you are doing is not expressing an alternate viewpoint,
you are perpetuating bull$hit…
:|
August 12th, 2009 at 12:26 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
The Secret Service is fielding 30 death threats A DAY against the President.
So aaronk – are those all isolated incidents, too? No call to generalize based on that data set??
PUH-LEEZE.
yours is not an alternative viewpoint, it’s an alternative reality, and it’s fake, false, bogus, ersatz, and wrong.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:27 pm“Gee you meanies, why can’t we spend all day debating whether the Earth is flat?”
-aaronk
August 12th, 2009 at 12:27 pmaaronk,
Seriously, you can get a really basic education by looking up Hitler on Wikipedia.
In the meantime, please stop humiliating yourself.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:28 pm#84 – aaronk says:
———————————————————
“when is the last time you saw a anti-military protestory who was right wing?”
August 12th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
Since the right-whiners believe sending our troops to die for a lie in Iraq is “suppoorting our troops” we can count that as anti-military protests, right?
August 12th, 2009 at 12:28 pmaaronk,
You don’t have “differing views,” you are simply wrong. You are fact-free. That doesn’t come under the heading of “differing views.”
August 12th, 2009 at 12:29 pmwhere’s your proof of that, dogwash??
August 12th, 2009 at 12:29 pmYou say this as if it were a fact that you could substantiate. I suggest that you do just that, especially in light of your statement that you are here for a real discussion.
You see we don’t have much patience with fools or people on fools errands who can’t think for themselves.
When you lie and distort truth from the onset it makes us not like you. I’m sure you can understand that, right?
August 12th, 2009 at 12:30 pmI think we on the left should not lump all right wingers together with the person who sent this fax. I’m confident the the secret service is going after whoever sent it (and whoever spray painted his sign). The person is sick and should be in jail. It’s important to remember these nuts at the town halls represent a fringe and not the entire right. BUT it should not be ignored or made light of. This is very serious. I fear violence in the near future.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:32 pmWhatever we are doing is working and you can’t deny that the free market experiment of the last 8 years was tracic for America. Sucks to be a republican/libertarian eh?
August 12th, 2009 at 12:32 pm#93 – aaronk says:
———————————————————-
“is this what the left does….just insult those with differing views so that they don’t “infect” their site with real discussion?”
August 12th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
You should go check out Red State, or Free Republic or any other right-whiner web site. They don’t simply insult people who offer an opposing point of view from their approved talking points, they block these free-thinkers from ever “infecting” their web-sites with opposing points of view!
August 12th, 2009 at 12:32 pmwatchpuppy learned a new thing: “non-falsifiable”
Ok pup, apply that to religion. We’ll wait.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:32 pmHi watchdog:
August 12th, 2009 at 12:33 pmDid you mean to say non-falsifiable?
how’d that Enron thing work out for you, dogwash??
how you liking your price of gas?
if you’d answer any of those questions honestly (and you won’t), then you – like millions and millions of other Americans, would agree it’s time to change some things around.
how much more do you want to pay for the 37th-best healthcare on Earth – 30% more – 60%?
Instead, as always, you’ll lie all day to try to demonstrate that the very smart, very informed, and very concerned people who post here are “wrong” about something (anything) – and you’ll FAIL – again, as always.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:34 pmWhy not, it’s happening at their behest. I guess you haven’t seen the evidence that they are the ones who started and support these actions.
It’s not our job to distance them from the violence, it is theirs.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:34 pmVery destructive and unrealistic economic theory.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:36 pm—
Let’s explore this idea shall we watchdog?
Most “Marxists” get Marxism wrong, so it’s not looking good for the watchpoopy, db.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:36 pmReally?
Then how did industrial corporations like Mercedes-Benz and Opel AG survive the Nazi era? Seems like someone with the dictatorial powers of Hitler could have used the war effort to nationalize industries across Germany, but he didn’t.
Why is that, if he was such a devout “socialist”?
Why did Hitler crack down on labor unions if he was a socialist?
During his drive to power, Hitler exploited this social unrest by promising workers to strengthen their labor unions and increase their standard of living. But these were empty promises; privately, he was reassuring wealthy German businessmen that he would crack down on labor once he achieved power.
Another perspective:
Hitler found his greatest support in traditionally conservative small towns. He campaigned with attacks on Marxism, making it clear that by Marxism he meant the Social Democrats. Hitler appealed to morality, attacking free love and what he inferred was the immorality of Berlin and some other major cities. He promised to stamp out big city corruption. He called for a spiritual revolution, for a “positive Christianity” and a spirit of national pride.
No serious historian advances the claim that “Hitler was a socialist”, unless he’s working on a grant from a right-wing think tank.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:36 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
The shooter you’re talking about was an Islamic extremist. That doesn’t mean he’s “liberal” by any means. The ethos of Islamic extremism has much more in common with the right-wing in this country than it does with the left.
For example, if you compare the goals of Christian dominionists with Islamic extremists, you’ll find they have a great deal of overlap, with the main difference being which religion each group thinks should reign supreme.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:37 pmI see aaronk has reached stage 3 (… or is it stage 4?) in the evolution of a troll: Victimhood.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:37 pmralph:
August 12th, 2009 at 12:40 pmI knew I should have written those down…
Maybe he was one o’ them “self-hating socialists”?
August 12th, 2009 at 12:42 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
aaronk @112-
Yes I DO find it disturbing – it’s disturbing to realize how many uneducated and misinformed people on the right!
Didn’t any of those people on the right who saying that erroneously pay any attention at all in high school?
August 12th, 2009 at 12:42 pmralph the wonder llama says:
I see aaronk has reached stage 3 (… or is it stage 4?) in the evolution of a troll: Victimhood.
__________
Has he issued the all-inclusive condemnation of everyone here yet???
“All you liberals… blah blah blah… blah blah blah…”
If so, he’s prolly getting ready for his big closing number…
“I come here to debate and LOOK HOW I GET TREATED…”
I wonder what his take on the standard will be… up tempo dance number or slow ballad?
And will he bring out a chorus line to help him finish??
August 12th, 2009 at 12:44 pmView ~ something that can be seen
Point ~ a cogent argument for or against something.
don’t see much of that in Ronky’s donk.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:45 pmNo, we find it disturbing that you are so uneducated or so indoctrinated that you don’t know what the hell you are talking about.
Which side of your mouth are you speaking from today? Is Obama a facist or a socialist?
See it just looks like namecalling when you call someone all the names you think are bad with no understanding of what they really mean.
It makes you look, well, ignorant.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:45 pmaaronk
August 12th, 2009 at 12:46 pmSure. Do you have any? Just try to make them logically consistent. Thanks…
I’ll tell ya what I find disturbing, aaronk: it’s when people compare the other side to Hitler without any reality-based understanding of history or context.
Yes, the Left does that too. But the Right does pretty much nothing else.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:46 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
Some of us do.
But we expect that opposing viewpoint to be well-informed and competently presented and argued.
Sadly, that is so often not the case.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:47 pmHave you got a mirror?
You don’t have any viewpoints of your own and you don’t know how to discuss with adults.
You make absurdly erronious statements and wish to call it discussion.
Basically, you don’t qualify for a discussion or an opposing viewpoint.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:48 pmaaronk says:
hey troll, when is the last time you saw a anti-military protestory
_________
What’s a “protestory”???
August 12th, 2009 at 12:48 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
Can I get a translation on 128 please…
August 12th, 2009 at 12:51 pmmmmmm… group therapy for the terminally misinformed…
my favorite kind of thread.
NOT
tutoring is something people get paid for (see dummy, i’m a capitalist)
August 12th, 2009 at 12:51 pmpags2 says:
Al faxes are stamped with the sending phone number.
_____________
Somewhere there’s a balding, chubby, oddly sexless, middle-aged white male slapping himself on the forehead and saying…
D-oh!!!!
Better lawyer up, Cowboy…
August 12th, 2009 at 12:52 pmActually I have never heard a progressive call a right winger a socialist. That is because we understand the difference and the right does lean towards facism in it’s extreme. Which is close to where they are today.
That’s why we watch right wing extremists and the list is getting longer each day.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:52 pmAh, yes, the false equivalency, followed by the persecution complex.
No, aaronk, the attacks you’ve received here follow from your misinformed assertions of Hitler’s politics, which are more or less a matter of historical record, not so much from any generic categorizing of your views.
Perhaps, but I doubt it. A conservative friend of mine frequently makes that claim, but we have yet to stumble on an issue that isn’t contentious. It’s because we start from fundamentally different places and have fundamentally different priorities.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:52 pmUmmm. Capitalism as implemented in our ‘health care’ system is currently failing 40 million plus uninsured and under insured Americans.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:53 pmThat’s miserable.
129
August 12th, 2009 at 12:53 pmFor the same reason that much of Marx’s idea continue to exist. See the thing is that no system is pure and neither end of any continnum exists sucessfully…
First off, here’s some information on trolls.
Second, of course opposing viewpoints are welcomed. Civil discussions with conservatives here would be great. But in the course of a discussion, when a viewpoint is proven to be demonstrably false, the holder of that view really ought to reconsider it and both learn and grow from his mistake.
Speaking of which, that article pastcaring linked to which neatly debunks your claim that Hitler was a lefty, did you read it? What did you think of it?
August 12th, 2009 at 12:53 pmwatchdog says:
Why has capitalism still not failed miserably as Karl Marx predicted?
______________
Uhhh…
***droll pause…***
What you call “The Last Two years”???
August 12th, 2009 at 12:53 pmPerhaps because the capitalists have successfully engineered the political environment to privatize the profits but socialize the losses?
Just a thought.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:54 pmralph, I can understand that….I have seen the same thing happon on “right wing” sites where you get a leftist who just comes in and recites some foxnews talking points and then leaves. It’s frustrating. I have no agenda. I work for no-one. I own my own small business, and I’m home sick right now with strep throat, so I was looking forward to the discussion when I stumbled onto this site. i form my own opinions. I often disagree with conservatives, for example on gay marriage and free trade. I also want to fix healthcare, but I am not sold on the proposals that are out there right now.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:54 pmdbadass @#130, I’ve sent a telegraph message to Gabby Johnson in Rock Ridge. Expect reply tomorrow. Stop.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:54 pmI’m a leprechaun and I can grant you 3 wishes but first you must allow me to rape you analy.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:55 pmedit the above post I didn’t mean “fox news talking points”
August 12th, 2009 at 12:55 pmnan4tjn says:
_______________
Not a good idea to go off your meds, nan.
You end up making comments like the one above.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:55 pmI also want to fix healthcare
OK, what would you change? Discuss and defend, please.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:56 pmAll the Righties love to pretend to be victims of something.
They also love to pretend that the real victims of real things are merely whiners.
Transference, projection, and denial.
They’re just little walking, talking psych 101 syllabi.
(capitalism has failed – it only exists now on life support in a persistent vegatative state – remember Terry Schiavo????)
August 12th, 2009 at 12:56 pmThis wouldn’t be an eco-jewelry small business by any chance would it?
August 12th, 2009 at 12:56 pmaaronk,
It just difficult to take seriously someone so ill-informed as you. Sorry, but that’s just the way it is.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:56 pmchiroptera toasterhead says:
No need for torture. No need for barbarism. No need for suspending habeas corpus. No need to further shred our Constitution. The rule of law can win over terrorism.
I wish I could vote up this comment 100 times. Well said toasterhead. HEY…that rhymes…Cheese flap ain’t the only poet here :)~
August 12th, 2009 at 12:56 pmFunny how they all want to talk now and try to find common ground at least initially eh?
August 12th, 2009 at 12:58 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
watchdog says:
Why has capitalism still not failed miserably as Karl Marx predicted?
August 12th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
Considering our current economic clusterf uck, define the failure of capitalism.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:59 pmHow about single payer, ronky? Why wouldn’t you be in favor of that?
August 12th, 2009 at 1:00 pmWhat would you change?
Hello?
aaronk says:
zooey, what am I uninformed about?
August 12th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
Well, why not read the responses to you on this thread for a start?
This is really just too sad….
August 12th, 2009 at 1:02 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
aaronk,
I have to go do some adult stuff right now, but you do lots and lots of reading, and then we’ll talk.
Toodles.
August 12th, 2009 at 1:03 pmarronk says:
not sure what a troll is
Obviously, you don’t have any mirrors in your home.
August 12th, 2009 at 1:04 pmI can’t decide who should get the Dumas award nomination for this morning, watchmutt or ronky.
August 12th, 2009 at 1:05 pmOn this thread you have exibited extrordinary ignorance about what socialism and facism are.
As Zooey pointed out, you didn’t read the responses to your own tripe. Why should we take you seriously?
August 12th, 2009 at 1:08 pmaaronk, let me fill in the blanks that Zooey understandably left for you, but first I’d like to say that, at this point I appreciate what you’re trying to do, and the attitude you bring. You do seem to be interested in discussion, and you are not prone to resort to blanket insults. This alone sets you apart from so many of the other right-wingers who post here. Right, watchpoop?
But to fill in the blanks, in this particular case, your idea of Hitler’s politics is so wildly uniformed and, might I add, partisan in its bias, that you have attracted a good bit of abuse for it.
You would probably get abuse from some quarters just for disagreeing, but you have compounded that by espousing a seriously flawed image of history and trying to use it to build some sort of argument.
That’s what Zooey and the rest of us meant when we called you “misinformed”.
August 12th, 2009 at 1:08 pmaaronk, are you against all forms of learning, or certain degrees of it, or a restricted version or what?
August 12th, 2009 at 1:09 pm#129 – watchdog says:
———————————————————-
“Why has capitalism still not failed miserably as Karl Marx predicted?”
August 12th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
It aint gonna happen that way. Capitalism can always out-spend and out-borrow any other economic form, every time.
The problem is when the right-whiners claim that allowing capitalism to “poice themsleves” is the best way. The last 20 years has proven that “self-policing entities” end up screwing up more than does any socialized economic form. Because there’s no oversite by any entity, when it crashes, there’s no relief for anyone.
Why can’t capitalists admit that that the capitalist system isn’t perfect, and requires some form of oversight? Why are they so opposed to reasonable oversight?
August 12th, 2009 at 1:09 pmSorry to hear. Antibiotics, of course, are your friend. Last time I had strep, the salt water gargle helped as did plenty of sleep, you’ll get over it quicker if you sleep as much as you can until the symptoms clear.
August 12th, 2009 at 1:15 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
Democrat Soldier says:
Why can’t capitalists admit that that the capitalist system isn’t perfect, and requires some form of oversight? Why are they so opposed to reasonable oversight?
_____________
Because then they couldn’t rape and pillage w/ impunity.
They’d actually have to “produce results”…
August 12th, 2009 at 1:19 pmDo you see facism as a form of socialism?
I don’t.
No.
Goebbels didn’t either.
He should know, right?
^ “Goebbels on National-Socialism, Bolshevism and Democracy, Documents on International Affairs, vol. II, 1938, pp. 17-19. Accessed from the Jewish Virtual Library on February 5, 2009. [6]Joseph Goebbels describes the Nazis as being allied with countries which had “authoritarian nationalist” ideology and conception of the state.
August 12th, 2009 at 1:21 pmRalph, are you seriously going to go along with this posers game?
August 12th, 2009 at 1:21 pmThere, fixed it for you.
August 12th, 2009 at 1:22 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
The National Socialist German Workers’ Party (Nazi Party) ruled Germany from 1933 until 1945. After Benito Mussolini’s successful March on Rome in 1922, German Nazi leader Adolf Hitler grew to admire him, and soon the Nazis presented themselves as a German version of Italian Fascism.[215][216] Joseph Goebbels, Hitler’s chief propagandist, credited Italian Fascism with starting a conflict against liberal democracy, saying,
Following the Italians’ example, the Nazis attempted a “March on Berlin” to topple the Weimar Republic, which they characterised as “Marxist” (in reality, it was social democratic)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
Funny that those ’socialist’ Nazi’s would tar the Weimar Republic with the epithet ‘Marxist’ if they were themselves ’socialist,’ don’t you think?
aaronk?
August 12th, 2009 at 1:27 pmnan4tjn proves that the truly stupid will believe anything.
August 12th, 2009 at 1:27 pmNo but I know a phony pos poser when I have read 20 or 30 threads like yours.
August 12th, 2009 at 1:28 pmBecause this is a capitalist country, aaronk should be paying for the education he’s getting here.
Don’t give it away for free, folks – it’d be “un-American”.
August 12th, 2009 at 1:28 pmYou’re right tombaker. aaronk, we will be sending you a bill.
August 12th, 2009 at 1:30 pmYes, aaronk, I do see Hitler as a fascist, in the conventionally understood sense of the term (read: not the Jonah Goldberg “up is down” sense of the term). Fascism is a type of totalitarianism that is anti-intellectual, anti-liberal (in Mussolini’s own words), and uses religion and corporate power as tools to achieve and maintain political power.
No, I don’t see anything that fascism and socialism hold in common. Both claim to embrace the power of the many, but their philosophies, methods, priorities and historical records are almost entirely opposed to each other.
August 12th, 2009 at 1:31 pmY’know Ralph, for a mere 10% of the gross, I would gladly Broker your tutorials, leverage their high quality, and maximize your profit potential.
Next stop: Ralph’s Sylvanish Learning Centers all over the country – franchises, IPO, the whole 9.
We’ll be hiding our money in Barbados in no time, just like the big guys do!!!!
August 12th, 2009 at 1:31 pmAnd the other geniu, the one who likes to pack a loaded gun to a presidential speaking engagement to show off his NH gun privileges and second amendment rights, I hope he likes having a “shadow”.
August 12th, 2009 at 1:31 pmaaronk – your first post was protesting what you felt was a lumping together of right-wingers.
If one was on the right these days I can certainly see why one would feel somewhat defensive. There sure is a lot of crazy, rude and downright violent behavior coming from the right these days!
But if you came here looking for a discussion, perhaps defensively asserting that the left is no better was starting things on the wrong foot?
August 12th, 2009 at 1:33 pmDo you believe in the existance of Marxist Nazis?
August 12th, 2009 at 1:35 pmFred, what can I say? I’m a sucker for the promise of a decent, or at least a civil, discussion. I have my doubts about aaronk, but I’ll let him prove those doubts either well-or-ill-founded.
He may actually be sincere and just ill-informed.
But I do agree with Trollspotter on the efficacy of the salt water gargle.
August 12th, 2009 at 1:35 pmralph, I agree with that definition of fascism. I personally believe that in order for fascism to exists, it requires such a high level of state control, that at least a degree or form of public ownership of the means of production would have to follow. Would you agree with that?
August 12th, 2009 at 1:37 pmaaronk says: 61
This shows just how incredibly stupid and brainwashed you are. Hitler put socialists and communists in concentration camps right next to Jews. Only congenital morons think Fascists are anything but on the RIGHT end of the political spectrum but you were TOLD to believe and and are so stupid that repeat it without even realizing how stupid it makes you look.
August 12th, 2009 at 1:39 pmaaronk ~ if you wanted discussion, why didn’t you reply to ANY of my questions.
Oh.
I thought so.
August 12th, 2009 at 1:39 pmThat should have been 67
August 12th, 2009 at 1:39 pmshoeless, no, I don’t. They might claim to exist, but the two theologies are pretty contradictory.
August 12th, 2009 at 1:41 pmaaronk says:
You should hate to highjack the thread with your abject stupidity. Hating the military is only proof of the left to brainwashed braindead morons like YOU.
August 12th, 2009 at 1:41 pmLet me make it simple for you. Benito Mussolini inveted fascism, so he got to define it. To put it in a nutshell, fascism holds that the people exist only to serve the state. Socialism holds that the state exists only to serve the people.
August 12th, 2009 at 1:42 pmRUCerious, sorry, I’m new to this site so I seem to keep missing some people’s questions. I’ll go back up and look at them now.
August 12th, 2009 at 1:42 pmAccording to Wiki: Fascism, comprises a radical and authoritarian nationalist political ideology and a corporatist economic ideology. Nazism is often considered by scholars to be a form of fascism.
Socialism refers to various theories of economic organization advocating state, public or common worker ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and a society characterized by equal access to resources for all individuals with a more egalitarian method of compensation.
aaronk, that is the real simplified Cliff Notes type definitions. You take it from there.
August 12th, 2009 at 1:42 pmaaronk says:
Hey MORON Hitler did NOT nationalize the industries. IG Farben remained a PRIVATE instition throughout the war. Fascism is a government corporate alliance. That is RIGHT wing. My GOD you are stupid
August 12th, 2009 at 1:43 pmAnd we all love ya for that quality Ralph. I just hate to see you spend so much energy on someone who is just playing you(my opinion of course).
Shoeless just asked the troll if he believed in the existance of Marxist Nazi’s. That points out the trolls resitance to the facts that all of us understand and accept.
I believe it is willful.
Peace bro
August 12th, 2009 at 1:43 pmHey WatchPUNK. Righties cant deny they are ignorant brainwashed MORONS. They can try but it just gives us one more thing to laugh at
August 12th, 2009 at 1:46 pmaaronk says:
You are a liar. You are not asking honest questions you are regurgitating ignorant rightwing crapola
August 12th, 2009 at 1:49 pmaaronk.. Cool. I’m waiting.
August 12th, 2009 at 1:49 pmaaronk says:
zooey, are you against all forms of capitalism, or certain degrees of it, or a restricted version or what?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Aaronk do you molest, kill and burry ALL the neighborhood children or just the young ones or just the young boys?
August 12th, 2009 at 1:51 pmDo you believe in the existance of Marxist Nazis?
(whispers) I do believe in fairies. I do believe in fairies, I do, I do, I do.
August 12th, 2009 at 1:52 pmwatchdog says:
Which are different from your generalizations of lefties in WHAT WAY? You are stupid and you are a punkass troll who doesnt like it when YOU are treated the way YOU treat us. So BITE ME moron
August 12th, 2009 at 1:55 pmNot in the least.
All you’re doing is casting any form of totalitarianism as a form of socialism under the guise of “state control”. This is a cheap tactic and makes me suspect that Fred and the others are right about you.
Totalitarianism is neither right nor left (although conservatives tend toward totalitarian ideas much more readily than liberals do). Socialism can lead to totalitarianism, but so can right-wing ideologies.
Hitler did not take control of the means of production. He enlisted the owners of industrial capacity to serve his goals.
If you still insist on seeing that as some weird form of “socialism” then I’ll have to conclude that you are looking to have your reasoning follow your conclusion, and that you’re not really serious about any of this.
August 12th, 2009 at 1:56 pmVery well put, shoeless.
August 12th, 2009 at 1:58 pmRUCerious, I didn’t realize those questions were for me….sorry. Let me 1st give you a quick background if you don’t mind. I was born lower middle class. I never went without the basics, so I’m not trying to act like little Timmy here, but I paid my way to college, got a job and started my own business on the side. Worked hard, one of my businesses grew, and now I do pretty well. I’m no where near rich, I can’t afford to stop working or anything like that, but I’m 31, I don’t live paycheck to paycheck, I have a home, a few cars, a wife, a daughter, and I can go on 1 or 2 vacations per year. Because of that, I of course have a bias towards the capitalist system and believe that hard work can get most people towards their goals. I also am sensitive to the fact that perhaps I was blessed with certain talents allowed me to be successful that maybe everyone doesn’t have. I say all of that for full-disclosure so you guys don’t draw your own conclusions as to what I am about. I’m not a “silver spoon” kid, or a hypocrite. I am also open minded, and have changed my mind on many issues through discussions like this, and I thoroughly enjoy political discussions, WITHOUT INSULTS. My wife always says that as soon as we are yelling or insulting, we’re no longer communicating, and I think she’s right.
I also donate money to a group in my area called “Mathew 25″ which is a group of free medical and dental clinics specifically built to serve the underprivileged. This is a beautiful cause, and I am proud to support it, but it is not without it’s ridiculous abuses. What you learn from working with these groups is that anything which is perceived to be “free” will be taken advantage of. Often the patients at Mathew 25 who really need care have to wait in 2 or 3 hour lines because there are a bunch of people in front of them with the sniffles, who probably could have just rested up or taken some advil and been fine. (just one example). I don’t want to see our entire medical system end up looking like the waiting room at Mathew 25, so I think we need to be careful about how we construct this plan, but I do sincerely want to make sure that those who CANNOT (not those who just don’t want to) provide for themselves, aren’t just left to die.
August 12th, 2009 at 2:01 pm“Why has capitalism still not failed miserably as Karl Marx predicted?”
You really need to get out more if you think our present situation is success.
August 12th, 2009 at 2:01 pmthat’s great aaronk.
Except you didn’t answer any of my questions.
What would you change?
August 12th, 2009 at 2:03 pmDo you think that the capitalist system of private health insurers, motivated by profit is inherently better than a system of nonprofits?
P.S. No public option would be ‘free’///…
August 12th, 2009 at 2:04 pmRalph-
I wouldn’t say that Aaron K. is a troll. I would say he illustrates the degree of misinformation so rampant in this country that objective fact is squarely put on the wayside. Conclusions before reasoning, as you say. But those conclusions are force fed to people in the U.S. through a corrupted media. Ironically, it’s all through a corporate-controlled lens playing people like fiddles. It’s like watching these emotionally distraught people at the townhall meetings: frustrating and tragic.
August 12th, 2009 at 2:06 pmwatchdog says:
What an intelligent rebuttal. Where do you get your clever little insults? You are one very creative individual.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Why would I waste clever on a moron like you? You are a punkass troll. You come in and insult liberals, try to derail threads, regurgitate moronic rightwing talking points and I am supposed to treat you AS IF you were really trying to have a reasoned discourse with us? You disgust me. You KNOW you are too stupid to compete in the arena of ideas so you just come to annoy us, insult us and screw with us but snivel like the PUNK you are when we treat you the same way.
August 12th, 2009 at 2:07 pmYou stupid arrogant piss ant. that is exactly what is happening now and exactly what we are trying to change.
August 12th, 2009 at 2:07 pmaaronk, if your self-expository post is even close to accurate, why would you (or anyone else) think that providing social services for our society is wrong or bad? Why do you accept the lies about the possibilities of public health care? You claim donations to what appears to be a religious health care operation and then turn around and say it is being abused.
This is why things don’t work when people claim charity and compassion but only if it happens the way they think it should. “Take my handouts because well, it makes me feel good.”
August 12th, 2009 at 2:08 pmaaronk says:
You waste your time and ours with your little biography. No one here knows if it is true or not. Therefore it bolsters NOTHING it is NOT a bona fides. So why dont you answer the question and try to do so without giving us a re-run of the Rush Limbaugh show.
August 12th, 2009 at 2:10 pm4. Krazny:…
Ordinarily, the Secret Service doesn’t advertise who is being investigated or why, etc. Among other reasons for not doing so is the (probably justified) opinion that there is no need to encourage copy cats.
Like other executive agencies, they will make an announcement if requested to by the appropriate authority; in a case like this, that might involve a decision to announce by the President’s Office, Secretary of Homeland Security, etc, at the request of the Congressman.
August 12th, 2009 at 2:10 pmNo, we come here so you can validate our generalization.
August 12th, 2009 at 2:11 pmshoeless says:
Bang ZOOM, shoeless that one is gonna leave a mark
August 12th, 2009 at 2:12 pmRalph, I think we are closer to the same page on that than you think. I agree that all forms of totalitarianism are bad, and aren’t really tied to left or right. They’re tied to corrupt power hungry politicians. I’ll restate my original take, and say that it would seem to me that a fascist state would ultimately have a high probability of leading to a socialist state, simply because of the high level of governmental control in place to begin with, but I will agree with you that the 2 are not synonomous, and that conclusion is not a gurantee…just theoretical.
None the less, I’m sure we agree that we don’t want fascism or “nazi-ism” in the US. How do you feel about socialsim, marxism, & communism?
August 12th, 2009 at 2:13 pmThank you ralph, but I still think the troll understands. I wish these right-wingers would all read Musolini before running around calling other people fascists.
August 12th, 2009 at 2:15 pmaaronk says:
Still pushing the BS you were programmed with. Its pathetic really. So IF Fascism would lead to Socialism why DIDNT it in Nazi Germany when Hitler had complete control and could have done whatever he wanted? I mean other than the whole pile of tripe is stupid I mean
August 12th, 2009 at 2:15 pmOops, I don’t think the troll understands.
August 12th, 2009 at 2:15 pmwatchdog says
August 12th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
Why has capitalism still not failed miserably as Karl Marx predicted?
_____________________________________________________________
That’s an interesting (and somewhat valid) question, even coming from a troll. So let me give it a shot.
Pure capitalism, with nothing whatsoever socialized, wouldn’t last long, and I know of no country that’s tried it in modern times. Even the most capitalist of societies find it necessary to provide for a military out of common funds, and pay somebody to run the government.
But let’s pretend we have a capitalist state, where only the bare minimum of services (such as defense) are socialized. People are free to make as much money as they want to, unfettered by cumbersome regulations. Services that are socialized in other countries are completely privatized. Private companies build roads and then charge tolls from the people who use them. Education is completely privatized — if you can’t afford an education, you don’t get one. If you’re sick and you can’t afford a doctor, you die. Everyone is responsible for himself.
Such a system will fail. Without some safety nets (what you call socialism), the poor will fall into an abyss they cannot escape from, since they will have no access to education, health care, vocational training, or anything else they could use to better themselves. Meanwhile, the rich would become much richer off the backs of the poor, and the poor gradually lose their political voice, ultimately creating a dictatorship or a totalitarian state — kind of resembling a middle ages feudal system. And with ignorant peasants making up the majority of the country, the rest of the world would pass them by in economic growth and political power. The system would ultimately collapse when the peasants revolt and usher in communism, as has happened in a number of countries.
On the other hand, pure communism doesn’t work either, as the Soviet Union showed. Communism can work on a very small scale, such as within a family or within a monastery. But communism on a large scale, such as an entire country, won’t work if there is no personal motivation for production. China has realized that, and their communist government survives while the Soviet Union failed. China has moved to a more modified form of Communism, with enough aspects of capitalism that it’s possible for a person to personally profit from their labors. As a result, China is thriving, even though they still are a heavily regimented society.
Our country has done best when the middle class is the strongest. They are the ones who do most of the work and keep the economic machine running. Therefore, it’s in our best interests to keep the middle class strong and not allow it to fall into poverty. To do this, we have safety nets. We provide a basic education to every child. We give helping hands to the poor, sick, and disabled when they cannot help themselves. We have laws against fraud and misrepresentation to keep scumbags from victimizing the innocent. We have regulations to keep greedheads from poisoning the well for everybody else.
I assume when you ask why capitalism hasn’t failed miserably, you are talking about capitalism in this country. And the reason capitalism has survived in the United States and we haven’t become a third-world dictatorship? It’s because of the “socialist” safety nets. It’s because in this country, you can still be anybody you want to be, no matter how you start out. And it’s important we keep it that way.
August 12th, 2009 at 2:16 pmAs a socialist, I am all for socialism.
August 12th, 2009 at 2:17 pmaaronk, you need to get the ism out of your brain and look at reality. You do realize that you and every other American citizen (except the top 2%) are just one illness, one injury, one accident away from losing everything you have spent your entire life working for so that a few companies can post a profit?
Face it, socialism and fascism are antithetical. One is focused on society, the other on profits and control.
August 12th, 2009 at 2:18 pmaaronk, your conclusion that “a fascist state would ultimately have a high probability of leading to a socialist state” seems like the result of an insistence that “socialism” is the equivalent of “totalitarianism”.
Fascism does not lead to socialism.
Fascism leads to totalitarianism.
That’s not the same thing as socialism. Your understandings of the terms involved seem very fuzzy and convenient — for you, that is. For a meaningful discussion, it proves very inconvenient indeed.
August 12th, 2009 at 2:18 pmOn the off chance you are just really uninformed and brainwashed by default instead of being a troll. I will say this. I couldnt care less about Socialism or Capitalism. It is much more important what the VALUES and GOALS of a society are than how the cookies are cut up. If you see a just society as the top of a hill arguing about whether socialism or capitalism is the vehicle to get there is like arguing if we should take a Ford or Chevy Truck to the top of that hill. The more you argue about the vehicle or the more you DEIFY the vehicle the less chance you will actually get to the top of that hill. Both systems have their plusses and minuses. Neither are going to produce the ideal that purists would lead us to believe. So pick a vehicle, make the necessary adjustments instead of dealing with problems with jingoism about the greatness OF the Chevy and keep your DAMN EYES ON THE TOP OF THE HILL. Keep that destination as the REAL priority instead of making the praising of the Chevy or Ford the NEW DESTINATION
August 12th, 2009 at 2:20 pmAs a socialist, I am all for socialism.
I’m a Fabian myself… G.B. Shaw should be remembered for more than ‘writing that play they based “My Fair Lady” on…’
August 12th, 2009 at 2:23 pmmisscoleopteramolly says:
The truth is pure communism CAN work. Whether it is desirable is another question but there really isnt any doubt that the Inca were basically a purely communist Monarchy. All resources were owned by the state. There was nothing even analogous to money. Taxes were paid for by service to the state. It was certainly totalitarian but theft was unknown according to the Spaniards. In a part of the world where today thousands are starving no one went hungry. Some of the most impressive engineering projects in the ancient world were produces, roads still used today that spanned thousands of miles. It was arguably the most efficient government in the world of its day. So if you mean by work FUNCTION not give freedom to its people communism HAS worked.
August 12th, 2009 at 2:25 pmIt is a true statement of affairs when people argue comparing economic systems with political ones. Many European countries have a mix of socialism and capitalism while they have various versions of democratic government. The US is a democratic republic with strong capitalistic tendencies while utilizing many socialist aspects for public services. China espouses communism yet is embracing aspects of capitalism on the economic side wile their government is basically totalitarian.
We really need to learn the differences.
August 12th, 2009 at 2:26 pmstill waiting aaronk..For one lousy idea that you would change..I’ll be back in a couple of hours to see if you’ve come up with one idea on how to change the health care system for the better.
August 12th, 2009 at 2:26 pmRUCerious,
1st, regarding the health insurance companies being motivitaed by profits, vs. a non-profit. I’m by no means a fan of the insurance companies. I conver my employees insurance, and it rises lke 7-9% every year. In a perfect world we would go back to the days when people just paid for their doctor visits with money they have saved back for such things. That was obviously before the average doctor started making over $500,000/year, with surgions making as much as 8 figures. Medical costs, not insurance costs are the actual root of the problem. Now, a case can be made that the insurance companies help keep medical costs down by negotiating better rates. According to the bills I get in the mail, that certainly is true, however my rates still continue to rise, and they continue to profit, so I see your point as well. A governmetn option, however, will prove itself to probably be even worse. The government has yet to prove itself to be able to run anything efficient and lower the costs of anything. Would I like to see some NFP’s offer health insurance….yeah that would be great, but I’m not sure why it doesn’t happen. Here are a few ideas that I have accumulated from different blogs and magazine artcles…etc over the last few months. Tell me what you think.
Make all medical services, insurance and personal savings for such expenses exempt from all federal, state and local income and payroll taxes. Those who complain about the cost of medical care and insurance must be confronted with the fact that if we cannot afford medical care, we surely cannot afford to pay taxes on the money we set aside for it.
Allow an individual or corporate tax deduction equal to double the value of the service for all charity care by medical care providers. At one time America had a vigorous network of private charity care, which was largely destroyed by the government barging in. We need to restore that environment of private charity, which was more efficient, effective and compassionate.
Pass legislation now proposed in the U.S. Congress that would give every individual or business the ability to purchase insurance in a national market, from insurance companies in any state. That would allow for ownership of health insurance that is more affordable and can follow individuals from job to job and state to state. The increased competition between insurance companies would restrain the cost of insurance.
Allow the purchase of basic health insurance with high deductibles and low premiums that covers major illness or injury and annual exams, in conjunction with tax-free accounts for out-of-pocket expenses, such as deductibles. That, more than anything, would make insurance premiums more affordable for Americans who fear the financial consequences of health misfortune.
Broaden the availability of optional coverage provided by Medicare Advantage, but allow for additional tax-deductible premiums to be paid by those seniors who elect such options. More choices from more options should be available to retirees—but not paid for by taxpayers. This would allow for expanded and more efficient coverage, and reintroduce an element of competition to those who seek to provide health care to seniors.
Allow Medicare patients to utilize their Health Savings Accounts to pay for services from their Medicare physicians. This could bring thousands of doctors back into the Medicare program overnight and eliminate the ridiculous and unjust prohibition on those who want to spend their own money on their medical care.
Limit non-economic or punitive damages in all malpractice or other litigation against medical providers or drug and medical equipment firms to a maximum of $250,000 (indexed for inflation). This would wring the bonanza for a few law firms out of the current ocean of litigation—and the high cost of “defensive medicine” now practiced by providers as protection against such legal extortion. The effect would be a reduction in the cost of medical care and insurance for everyone.
August 12th, 2009 at 2:28 pmgood point ralph
August 12th, 2009 at 2:32 pmWatchPUNK
Nah Beck is too stupid for me to waste time with like YOU. You are an IGNORANT little punkass troll. Too much of a snivelling punk to be a girl. You are more like a subhuman MORON
August 12th, 2009 at 2:32 pmHoodathunk says:
Very true. Capitalism, Socialism are forms of ECONOMY not government and we cant have a relevant discussion about them without understanding that basic concept. Either could exist under a Monarch, Oligarchy or Democracy
August 12th, 2009 at 2:35 pmWhy can the US justify paying for health care for the very young, the very old and the handicapped yet everyone else has to pay for the privilege?
It couldn’t be that capitalism dictates that for any service, someone needs to make a profit?
So why is it that so many other countries who treat their citizens as viable, productive members of society rather than profit centers for pain and illness are more economically competitive? Why can Europe, Canada and Japan compete better in the global marketplace and still offer health care to their citizens?
And why is China putting together national health care?
August 12th, 2009 at 2:36 pmDifferent articles? This looks entirely lifted from here:
http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=5175
August 12th, 2009 at 2:37 pmhooda, I don’t just give money out because “it makes me feel good”. I think it’s the right thing to do. My cousin works at that place, and she tells me stories of both the good and the bad, which is why I know so much about it. Certainly you can admit that when something is perceived as “free” it will be taken advantage of right?
August 12th, 2009 at 2:37 pmHoodathunk says:
It couldn’t be that capitalism dictates that for any service, someone needs to make a profit?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
It is, of course, EXACTLY that.
August 12th, 2009 at 2:38 pm67. aronk sez:…
Been reading 20th Century history again, eh, aronk? Do you find it rewarding to get it wrong?
Surely you must remember the part where Hitler and his Nazis spent most of the 1920s and early 1930s in street level gang fights with the Socialists and Communists?
Surely you must have noticed the part where after Hitler came to power, after his election to chancellor and the death of Hindenberg, among the first to go to the Dachau concentration camp were the Communists and Socialists?
In the democratic context (the small d democratic context mind you), the Nazis are a party of the right, just as the Fascists and Falangists were; they were not a party of the left.
Your friendly (alleged) conservative propagandist is lying to you about liberals and progressives being socialists, communists, Nazis, etc. Some liberals and progressives do have common ground with some socialists, and many probably have even more common ground with social democrats.
There’s a great deal of difference though between the liberals, progressives and social democrats on the one hand and the authoritarian or totalitarian parties of the left on the other, and there’s an even bigger gulf between the democratic left and the authoritarian right.
By the same token, and given the current political dynamic, there is less and less difference between the conservatives in this country and the authoritarian lunatic right.
Most of the people in this country who self-describe as conservatives aren’t; they’re actually just social traditionalists and political reactionaries. They wouldn’t know conservatism if it bit them on the arse.
Get it straight or go away.
August 12th, 2009 at 2:38 pmExcellent point, Hooda. I should be more careful with the distinction.
August 12th, 2009 at 2:39 pmTrollspotter says:
Yep another plagiarist. What WERE the chances. I think the guy is PURE TROLL.
August 12th, 2009 at 2:39 pmtrollspotter, I didn’t read it on there, but I read that same article somewhere and copied it into my documents. I think they are pretty good ideas.
August 12th, 2009 at 2:40 pmYur an idiot. It’s both if anything but insurance is definatly evil in this usage and a contributor of more than half of the cost, unnessearily.
August 12th, 2009 at 2:40 pmaaronk says:
If you are going to copy articles cite them or you are just a plagiarist.
August 12th, 2009 at 2:41 pmThe government has yet to prove itself to be able to run anything efficient and lower the costs of anything.
That’s why Medicare overhead costs are a fraction of private insurers?
August 12th, 2009 at 2:42 pm#195 – watchdog says:
———————————————————-
“Who in the hell said Capitalism is perfect?? Where is the Right Wing extremist that’ s claiming that?”
August 12th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
Dude, you need to un-pucker. I never claimed that capitalism is perfect, but you never admitted that capitalism has some very large problems.
“Do you agree that all property is theft and all estate agencies are thefts?”
Nope, I’m very much a believer in personal property rights. I’m just not one of the “God & guns fixes every problem” crowd. I believe in a strong local government to address local issues, and a strong federal government to protect the rights of Americans, with transparancy to the civilians so they can protect themsleves from over-reaching government.
Yes, this is a hard line to meet, but it’s better than the “I hate federal government!” crowd. Well, they hate federal government except for the FDA to protect their drugs, and the DoE to provide regulation of their power grid, and the FCC to protect them from foul language, and the Dept. of Agriculture to protect their food, and the roads built by the Dept. of Transportation, their mail brought to me by the Portal Serivce, their safe working environment brought to them by OSHA, etc, etc, etc. Seems to me that the anti-federal-government folks don’t realize what they’d be sacrificing if they actually got their wish to disolve the federal government.
“What about Karl Marx’s Prediction about communication and transportation would become more and more centralized and controlled by the government?”
Karl Marx based his assumptions on the economic conditions of the time, which turned out to be radically wrong.
How about I ask you about what your thoughts are on “trickle-down-economics” now that it’s been proven to be a failure of an economic policy?
You’re asking a person who does not subscribe to a marxist philosophy to support them? Again, un-pucker, dude!
August 12th, 2009 at 2:42 pmvirtual pebble, those are some good points. I don’t really have a “conservative propagandist”, but the reason I am on this site is because I like to get all sorts of different viewpoints, but not just from the news media…from real people. Besides the insults, I think this is great, even if I don’t agree with everything. Would you rather I just go to a tea party and listen to Glenn beck to form my opinions? Of course not….I love talking to real people with opposing viewpoints, because I certainly don’t claim to know everything or even be right on everything.
August 12th, 2009 at 2:44 pm#246 – RUCerious says:
————————————————————
“The government has yet to prove itself to be able to run anything efficient and lower the costs of anything.
That’s why Medicare overhead costs are a fraction of private insurers?”
August 12th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
Execellent regurgitation of right-whiner talking points, RUC!
August 12th, 2009 at 2:44 pmok Eugene…I’m not a medical expert, but I really didn’t remember where I got that from. I copied it into a word document and saved it.
August 12th, 2009 at 2:45 pmCertainly you can admit that when something is perceived as “free” it will be taken advantage of right?
Yup. People call the Fire Department just to see the pretty red trucks in front of their house. And lots of people check books out of the library and keep them. And others just keep sending their kids to school when they could be home schooled. And don’t even get me started on the people who drive on the roads or flush their toilets, the abuse is horrible.
Get it through your head, public health care would no more be free than any of the above, Medicare, Medicaid, VA or any other public program aimed at providing services to the general public.
August 12th, 2009 at 2:46 pmaaronk said,
Only a troll would use the word “leftist” in much the same way only a troll would refer to the Democratic Party as the Democrat Party. (I just loved his freudian slip where he admits FOX News is giving him his propaganda talking points.)
Sorry aaronk, you outed yourself as troll and a fascist.
August 12th, 2009 at 2:46 pmaaronk says:
Sure you dont have a conservative propagandist but you compulsively parrot conservative propaganda. When asked what YOU think you plagiarize an article by cutting and pasting it. Is that because you CANT think for yourself and can only parrot what you were told to think?
August 12th, 2009 at 2:47 pmaaronk says:
You dont have to be a medical expert to have your OWN opinions about what to do in broad terms to make healthcare more responsive to the needs of the American people. You betray your lack of independent thought to even think in those terms. If you like articles so much you think you might use them in this way then was you put them in your archives add WHERE they came from otherwise you are just making excuses for being a plagiarist.
August 12th, 2009 at 2:49 pmaaronk, if you wonder about the abuses of the present Medicare/Medicaid system, do a search on the number of health insurance companies who have paid fines for abuse and fraud of that system.
It ain’t granny and the handicapped getting nailed.
August 12th, 2009 at 2:49 pmThat’s right! I’ll be lining up for multiple, unnecessary surgeries and treatments just because they are free.
August 12th, 2009 at 2:50 pmhttp://www.wgrz.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=69029&catid=37
There you go hooda. I heard this story last week. 603 ambulance rides since 2006. Why not, it’s free?
BTW, driving on the roads costs money (gas), flushing the toilet costs money (water). My friend works for the fire department in Indiana, and he spends his entire night going to “false alarms” and medical runs for people who have nothing wrong. Abuses happen. Let’s try to find a solution.
August 12th, 2009 at 2:51 pmaaronk says:
Sure, there are SOME people who will abuse anything. The answer is to punish abuses NOT to deny the service because of the potential for them. Ever hear of throwing the baby out with the bathwater?
August 12th, 2009 at 2:54 pmno Eugene, that’s not true.
August 12th, 2009 at 2:55 pmaaronk says:
no Eugene, that’s not true.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<
WHAT is not true? That not citing the source of articles you cut and past make you a plagiarist? Of COURSE it does. That you cut and paste when asked for YOUR opinion because you cant think for yourself? OK. I havent seen any contrary evidence. Why not try to address some future question with your OWN opinion rather than someone elses.
August 12th, 2009 at 2:58 pmEugeneDebs says
August 12th, 2009 at 2:25 pm
The truth is pure communism CAN work. Whether it is desirable is another question but there really isnt any doubt that the Inca were basically a purely communist Monarchy.
____________________________________________________________
You have a point — I was pretty much talking about economic and political systems of more modern times, and didn’t give the Inca a thought.
But why would pure communism work for the Inca and not work for the Soviets? My guess is that the Inca had a very strong society bound by culture and tradition. And if somebody was unhappy with the status quo, they could leave — but where would they go? Staying within the society ensured survival.
I suspect it would have been different for the Inca if they lived today. If they interfaced with the rest of the world. If they had the Internet, MTV, and Netflix. If they were exposed to cultures different from their own.
August 12th, 2009 at 2:58 pmok, Eugene, I don’t have a concise plan…I’m not in that industry so I don’t have access to all of the figures. I do realize that no one gets denied care in this country right now if they go to the emergency room, but that is a terrible way for them to have to get care, and it holds up true emergencies. Why not just make Congress’ healthcare plan available to all of the uninsured people? I have heard it is the best plan available, and they shoudl have the pull to make it happen. They could pass a bill tomorrow to make it tax deductible if the individual purchased it on their own right?
August 12th, 2009 at 2:59 pmaaronk
From your link which you seem to think proves something. The only thing it proves is that your current system is a failure and that is what we are trying to fix. What exactly in very short sentences is you g damned point?
The emergency room is not health care.
August 12th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
Abuses happen. Let’s try to find a solution.
So, we should allow 43 million people to remain uninsured, because of a few abusive characters? How about stiffening the standards? Oh, I forgot: that would be effective, except for the insurance companies and their lobbists.
August 12th, 2009 at 3:00 pmEugene, I like the ideas from thea article. The writer seems to have industry insight. Why don’t you try addressing the ideas instead of attacking me huh?
August 12th, 2009 at 3:00 pmThere’s nothing better than a free ambulance ride to the house of the sick and dying to spice up the day. It’s better than a Disney World day pass.
You should all try it at least once. It’s free and family fun!
August 12th, 2009 at 3:01 pmwatchpoopy:
According to the Medicare Trustees, Medicare Trust Fund will be in solvent by 2017.
Good news!
August 12th, 2009 at 3:02 pmbarfly, where are you and others continuing to get that 43 or 46 million uninsured number? It isn’t true.
August 12th, 2009 at 3:03 pmBut will the solvent they’re in clean up the mess?
August 12th, 2009 at 3:03 pmBecause you are a certified troll. Please note the title of this thread which you have highjacked with your tripe.
It exemplifies why your nonsense is annoying and unwelcome. The divide is caused by you and your side. You don’t want to work together on anything. You have made that perfectly clear.
August 12th, 2009 at 3:06 pmI don’t know why he does that dixie, but there is a lady in my town who does the same thing and nothing is wrong with her. Maybe it’s a mental condition…I don’t know. When I was on EMT, we pulled up without the lights on one time and she was just walking around the house like she was fine. We flipped the lights on and she immidiately ran to the couch and laid down like she was sick. Maybe because she gets meds at the ER….I don’t know, but the abuse does happen for some reason. I’m not saying it makes sense, just saying it happens.
August 12th, 2009 at 3:06 pmmisscoleopteramolly says:
I think the reason is two fold. It is always important WHO is making the decisions and the Inca had a long history of pretty smart and efficient kings. The word Inca MEANS king. He also had no REASON to mess with the system to consolidate power since he HAD all the power. The Soviet dictators had to continue intrigue to keep their power so vast inefficiencies were caused. They ESPOUSED Marx publicly while in practice they immediatly stopped co-opts and WORKER owned factories that are a cornerstone of his theories so THEY could get the power instead of the people having it which in theory is what should happen. This is actually a major problem OF the theory. You GIVE the centralization of power to the state then expect it to voluntarily then distribute it back to localities. In practice power virtually NEVER cedes anything without a demand and once the state HAS that central power there is none left for the people to be ABLE to make the demand.
The modern world absolutly adds another aspect. You pretty much need to interact economically and without any concept of money that would be much harder. Also with a modern media people SEE that others are free and that would give the people a reason to doubt the wisdom of giving up their freedom in the way the Inca did giving the king absolute power. I am not even saying in the longrun it would have continued to work in the ancient world it would only take a few bad kings for it to all fall apart.
August 12th, 2009 at 3:07 pmfred, look at how this conversation morphed. I didn’t take it here.
August 12th, 2009 at 3:08 pmIt isn’t true.
August 12th, 2009 at 3:09 pm–
You mean in the wat Hitler wasn’t what you thought or in a different way?
The author of that article is Richard E. Ralston, who considers acts of charity to be a “hoax.” Here’s where Mr. Ralston’s coming from:
A friend reports receiving a promotional letter that has given her a whole new outlook on promotional letters. It’s accompanied by a questionnaire bearing the same title as this piece. The letter is from Richard E. Ralston, managing director of the Ayn Rand Institute.
Ralston wishes to warn Americans against a gigantic fraud, a “hoax perpetrated by the media, charities, politicians, and academics.” You’ll know you’re a victim if anybody has ever tried to “get your money by making you feel guilty about the plight of others,” or if you’ve been “forced to pay taxes to fund government welfare programs.” The hoax is based on “the phony idea that you have a moral duty to serve others.” This is “a bold-faced lie.” In reality, “you don’t owe your life to anyone.” “Real morality means pursuing your own happiness and interests.”
And yet, “[I]f these guilt-mongers get their way, everything America stands for-independence, self-reliance, self- confidence-will go up in smoke.” For, “[o]nce they’ve established a ‘moral obligation’ to help others, they’ll have made it ‘moral’ for government to take everything you own for ‘the good of society.’ That’s a one-way ticket to tyranny.”
Personally, arronk, I don’t consider charity to be a “hoax” and therefore Mr. Ralston is not someone I’d want to put in charge of healthcare, but your mileage may vary.
August 12th, 2009 at 3:09 pmWhere there is charity and wisdom, there is neither fear nor ignorance.
– St. Francis of Assisi
Watchpuppy
It is utterly ludicrous to even THINK taxes would have to double to keep medicare solvent and you would have to be an idiot to believe it would. The demographics of America have changed as baby boomers are aging. All we need is a small adjustment and Medicare will be fine. It HAS worked well for forty years so pretending it ISNT a successful program is plainly ridiculous
August 12th, 2009 at 3:10 pmDon’t all of you think it is just crazy that in order for your insurance to be tax exempt, it has to be provided by your employer?
August 12th, 2009 at 3:10 pmWhy not just make Congress’ healthcare plan available to all of the uninsured people
August 12th, 2009 at 3:11 pm—
Because the freaks will scream Socialism if we were to do that…
Hoodathunk says
August 12th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
We really need to learn the differences.
___________________________________________________________
You’re absolutely right, of course. Economic systems and political systems are two different things.
But would you concede the line gets a bit blurred when an economic system is mandated by a political government? For example, the Soviet Union (a totalitarian government) mandated communism (an economic system). Yet, when the Soviet Union was described as a “communist nation”, I think everybody knew what that meant.
And our country is a democratic government that allows capitalism to flourish (I won’t even get into how one economic system exists when mandated and another economic system is “allowed to flourish”).
Yes, they’re separate, and we should remember that. But when the government is often the force that determines the economic system, we should expect people will use terms interchangeably.
Sort of like people who don’t know the difference between “font” and “typeface”.
August 12th, 2009 at 3:11 pmWhy? This your main argument for why we need universal health-care.
No.
My main argument for why we need universal health care is that it saves money, provides better care and is the moral thing to do.
August 12th, 2009 at 3:12 pmThere’s an old saying that the difference between a Democrat and a Republican is that a Democrat will pay 100 welfare cheats to make sure one legitimately starving family is fed, and a Republican will starve 100 families to deny one welfare cheat.
Who are you?
August 12th, 2009 at 3:12 pmYou make us all puke because you are busy counting the dimes of the poor and sick and not the billions held by the GODLESS corporations that deny care and cause sickness and death every GODDAMNED day!!!!!
August 12th, 2009 at 3:13 pmaaronk says:
I didnt ask for a precise plan rather broad terms. You are WRONG people DO get denied treatment. In fact 18,000 Americans per year DIE from lack of access to healthcare. All a hospital has to do is stabalize you. If you need ongoing treatment or say a tranplant you cant afford. You go home and DIE. Making Congress plan available to all would be giving a top notch public option. I would have no problem with that as a beggining. In the end I think we need a single payer system and to take the profit motive OUT of the healthcare equation. The profit motive will eventually lead to denial of care in one form or another. It will also lead to what we have now a premium on CRITICAL care, which makes such high profit margins and minimizing preventative care that has small profit margins
August 12th, 2009 at 3:14 pmwatchmutt
August 12th, 2009 at 3:16 pmhttp://budget.senate.gov/democratic/press/2001/pr_danielshrng030201.pdf
Marxism is fascism?
Nutty nut nuts!
August 12th, 2009 at 3:17 pmhttp://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/567737
Here’s one source for the 47 million number. The census bureau… it doesn’t reflect those who are uninsured and those subject to rescission either…
August 12th, 2009 at 3:17 pmaaronk says:
Eugene, I like the ideas from thea article. The writer seems to have industry insight. Why don’t you try addressing the ideas instead of attacking me huh?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
I dont care that you used an article. Just stop plagiarizing. IT is dishonest. I dont feel like rehashing talking points I have already addressed a dozen times. Its boring. Just becuase YOU bring it up AGAIN doesnt mean I am going to go through the same repititon for the thirteenth time. That is why talking points get treated the way they do. Why dont you stop plagiarizing
August 12th, 2009 at 3:18 pmhttp://health.usnews.com/articles/health/healthday/2008/06/10/25-million-americans-are-underinsured.html
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jun/17/business/fi-rescind17
You don’t think we have a problem, watchdog?
August 12th, 2009 at 3:18 pmWhat are you watching?
I am still confused by why the freaks think the big bad government can protect them from the “freedom haters that hate their freedoms” and be entrusted with the lives of our young service folk but somehow can’t handle an ocassional doctors visit…
August 12th, 2009 at 3:19 pmI know “can the Ethiopian change….” is a Biblical Quote.
But I thought the Arab Obama was from Kenya.
Could someone start printing out scorecards so I can keep up ?
August 12th, 2009 at 3:19 pmThere is a reason why aaronk and his ilk focus on the exceptions. They really can’t stand rules.
August 12th, 2009 at 3:19 pmaaronk says:
barfly, where are you and others continuing to get that 43 or 46 million uninsured number? It isn’t true.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
REALLY? You know that HOW? Who told you to believe THAT?
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/teachers/lessonplans/health/uninsured/
August 12th, 2009 at 3:21 pmThe company I work for processes paper EOBs from insurance companies who send us payments for Rxs we fill.
Medicare sends an electronic EDI form 835, which we de-crypt, and insert into our accounting system.
The paper EOBs are sent to a third party where we pay about 10 cents each to have them re-entered and are sent a text file to import into our reconciliation system.
Which costs us less?
August 12th, 2009 at 3:21 pmwhat would you think of establishing a nfp healthcare operation where all contributions were equal to a 100% TAX CREDIT (not just a deduction) obviously up to the amount of federal tax you paid to begin with. and using that money to purchase healthcare for those below 125% of their local poverty line (that is just the number that mathew 25 uses to determine who the treat for free) ?
I know that I would donate a ton of money and encourage all others to do the same thing. It would give the left and the right a great reason to donate. The left for humanitarian reasons, and the right for economic ones, but who cares…it’s a means to a great end right?
I would propose that the NFP could have no more than 10% overhead to income ratio, strictly regulated and audited both publically and privately. What do you guys think of that one?
August 12th, 2009 at 3:22 pmI love how the trolls have us all jumping hoops and talking to their agenda on this thread.
Make them prove thier outrageous statements.
Anyone who says that it isn’t true that there are close to 50 million uninsured Americans knows the truth but wishes to cloud the issue and change the subject from the title of the thread.
August 12th, 2009 at 3:22 pmOOPS premature postification
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/teachers/lessonplans/health/uninsured/
Background:
More than 44 million Americans were uninsured in 2005, according to data from the United States Census Bureau. That all-time high came as more individuals and employers decided that they could no longer afford health insurance premiums.
Things dont become true just because you believe them nor do FACTS disappear because you would rather NOT beleive them
August 12th, 2009 at 3:23 pmIf it spews talking points, calls for sympathy of victimhood, refuses to acknowledge accepted definitions of terms, it is a troll.
Someone should really update Wikipedia.
August 12th, 2009 at 3:23 pmaaronk, what would the shrinking tax revenue mean to additional deficits? The President’s plan is revenue neutral.
August 12th, 2009 at 3:24 pmaaronk, the gentleman whose healthcare ideas you like so much from the article you posted has been warning everyone that causes like Mathew 25 are “a hoax” and a conspiracy to create “a one-way ticket to tyranny.”
Is it your goal to bring tyranny to this great nation of ours, aaronk? :)
August 12th, 2009 at 3:27 pmNow its 50 Million? Please provide some evidence that The Census Bureau report is wrong.
The census bureau report says you are wrong… and as I pointed out it doesn’t even include the 25 million or more under-insured Americans or those who have insurance but will be subject to rescission if they ever need it.
August 12th, 2009 at 3:31 pmProve I said 50 million you lying pos.
August 12th, 2009 at 3:33 pmRUCerious, with an NFP operating at 90% efficiency, we have just eliminated the profits of the insurance co. and the inefficiencies of the government, so this program could likely end up revenue positive. We could certainly regulate and cap the tax credits/donations, or any excess in the NFP fund at the end of the year goes into the public treasury.
August 12th, 2009 at 3:33 pmwatchdog says:
Of course it is the Lewin group is owned by and Insurance corporation.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/22/AR2009072203696.html
The political battle over health-care reform is waged largely with numbers, and few number-crunchers have shaped the debate as much as the Lewin Group, a consulting firm whose research has been widely cited by opponents of a public insurance option.
Generally left unsaid amid all the citations is that the Lewin Group is wholly owned by UnitedHealth Group, one of the nation’s largest insurers.
More specifically, the Lewin Group is part of Ingenix, a UnitedHealth subsidiary that was accused by the New York attorney general and the American Medical Association of helping insurers shift medical expenses to consumers by distributing skewed data.
The Miliman study was done for Blue Cross Blue Shield
http://pulse.ncpolicywatch.org/2009/07/16/blue-cross-criss-crosses-myths-and-facts/
So where does the $88 billion figure come from? Here’s the first sentence in the study:
At the request of America’s Health Insurance Plans, the American Hospital Association, the Blue Cross Blue Shield Association, and Premera Blue Cross, Milliman has prepared this comparison of hospital and physician payment levels among Medicare, Medicaid and commercial payers.
That’s right, it’s a Blue Cross study. Milliman tries to capture the national dynamic but it’s difficult since payment rates vary drastically by region. North Carolina, for example, has pretty good Medicaid reimbursement rates, which allows programs like Community Care of North Carolina to thrive. Also, because Blue Cross contracts with providers are strictly confidential we don’t know how much Blue Cross pays to hospitals and doctors in our state.
OF COURSE they are rightwing sources they came from you and you spew nothing else
August 12th, 2009 at 3:33 pmAlso a 2006 Milliman Study found that Medicare ultimately shifts an average of 88.8 billion to the private market every year.
Huh. So giving taxpayer money to the private medical profession is socialism?
But having soldiers use government provided health care isnt?
See, this is why the fright wingers wailing about health insurance is beyond logical.
August 12th, 2009 at 3:34 pmaaronk says:
What is wrong with using taxes to assure everyone has the healthcare they need like the rest of the industrial world? For the middle class their taxes would go up and they would have no insurance costs so it would be close to a wash. To whom much is given much is expeted.
August 12th, 2009 at 3:36 pmaaronk says:
RUCerious, with an NFP operating at 90% efficiency, we have just eliminated the profits of the insurance co. and the inefficiencies of the government, so this program could likely end up revenue positive.
Why not just cut to the chase and institute a national sickness fund like the German System. That works.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91971406
August 12th, 2009 at 3:36 pmtrollspotter, what are you talking about? I have watched this operation with my own eyes give care to countless individuals for free. I’m not sure what you are speaking of
August 12th, 2009 at 3:36 pmwow – lot of billables getting racked up here….
maybe it would be easier to make Righties pay tuition for their visits….
August 12th, 2009 at 3:36 pmPlease read post #277.
August 12th, 2009 at 3:38 pmThis thread is about the GOP and its followers threatening to murder the President of the United States.
Not taxes.
Yesterday the GOP sponsored an armed protester carrying a sign advocating murdering the President. And this morning their sending faxes calling for the same.
The GOP is evil and they are an enemy to the United States.
Plain and simple.
August 12th, 2009 at 3:39 pmliar.
August 12th, 2009 at 3:39 pmeugene, the middle class doesn’t pay much in taxes, so that isn’t exactly accurate
August 12th, 2009 at 3:39 pmliar
August 12th, 2009 at 3:41 pmaaronk says:
eugene, the middle class doesn’t pay much in taxes, so that isn’t exactly accurate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Baloney. I pay better than a thousand a month in taxes and I am middle class. Here you are back with your contempt for workers and your BS talking points.
August 12th, 2009 at 3:42 pmaaronk says:
Doesnt it embarass you that you are ignorant and pretty much NEVER know what you are talking about?
August 12th, 2009 at 3:44 pmIn his own words
Ummm maybe that’s why so many people don’t want the government running their health insurance? What government agency runs well?
August 12th, 2009 at 3:45 pmNone of them under gop guidance.
August 12th, 2009 at 3:46 pmUmmm maybe that’s why so many people don’t want the government running their health insurance? What government agency runs well?
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/07/05/healthy_examples_plenty_of_countries_get_healthcare_right/
Here are some.
August 12th, 2009 at 3:50 pmUmmm maybe that’s why so many people don’t want the government running their health insurance?
Well, the US postal service does use many private contractors to move mail/parcels.
And really, how is moving lifeless packages around in any way like insurance?
August 12th, 2009 at 3:51 pmTry comparing it to the failed for profit system we have now.
It looks great to 3/4 of Americans. You are going to lose this one fella, sooner or later.
August 12th, 2009 at 3:53 pmnan4tjn says:
What government agency runs well?
AIG..wait, that was private.
I know, I know, Chrysler! Dang, thats not right.
JP Morgan!! Shoot. Wrong again.
Ooo Ooo TARP!!
August 12th, 2009 at 3:58 pmTry sending a letter with UPS or FedEx for 41 cents and see how far you get.
August 12th, 2009 at 3:59 pmHas anyone actually read the bill?
August 12th, 2009 at 4:02 pmnan4tjn says:
Has anyone actually read the bill?
What specifically are your issues with the bill?
I’d love to talk about it.
August 12th, 2009 at 4:03 pmhttp://docs.house.gov/edlabor/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf
Just in case you need a copy to read, nan4tjn.
August 12th, 2009 at 4:04 pmDid you have a question about the bill, nan4tjn?
August 12th, 2009 at 4:09 pmnan4tjn says:
Has anyone actually read the bill?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Oh my GOD. It is harder to seperate a Bengal Tiger from a porkchop than a brainwashed rightwing moron from his zombie meme talking point. There is no THE BILL. There are several competing versions of healthcare reform in the House alone MORON. If all you can do is regurgitate what Rush TOLD you to think do us a favor and STFU
August 12th, 2009 at 4:10 pmeugene, do you want to go down this road about federal taxes? How much was your tax return last year?
August 12th, 2009 at 4:22 pmI’m going to make it easy for you little fellers.
August 12th, 2009 at 4:25 pm
aaronk says:
Again… taxes are not the issue.
Costs are.
We pay more than ANY OTHER INDUSTRIALIZED NATION IN THE WORLD and yet we receive WORSE COVERAGE AND CARE than any of them.
Why is that?
August 12th, 2009 at 4:26 pmaaronk says:
eugene, do you want to go down this road about federal taxes? How much was your tax return last year?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I dont want to dig it out for an exact figure but I paid more than 17 grand in Federal taxes alone. Do you REALLY want to go down the road of contempt for working class Americans?
August 12th, 2009 at 4:30 pmThe bottom line is I pay enough that an increase in my tax base could easily offset the premiums I pay in health insurance and it would be a wash. Your smug insulting idiocy about how middle class Americans dont pay much in taxes so it wouldnt is just you being a smarmy ignorant propaganda parrot
August 12th, 2009 at 4:36 pmDid nan4tjn leave?
Is he reading the bill?!?
Nah…
August 12th, 2009 at 4:37 pmHow did the trolls manage to turn this thread into a debate on health insurance?
The GOP are out sponsoring threats against the President’s life, and we’re talking about taxes and health insurance?
:|
This is a prime example of why the GOP ALWAYS controls the debate.
August 12th, 2009 at 4:43 pmWAYNEBRO says:
While that is true what more needs to be said? The death threat and calling Obama a Marxist is outrageously stupid what more is there to discuss about it? I think it a reasonable sign that it is SO vile even the TROLLS wont try to justify it.
August 12th, 2009 at 4:45 pmWhat more needs to be said?
That’s how we respond to death threats to the President?
A LOT needs to be said. And a lot needs to be done.
If we really started talking about this stuff and the MSM picked up on it like they should be doing, the GOP could be out of business before years end.
Once the ties are exposed, the secret workings behind the scenes that are working to overthrow the government, then the GOP will be just a bad dream. Their time will be up.
So the LAST thing the GOP wants, is anyone discussing the fact that they are sponsoring death threats on the President.
And therefore they send in trolls to get everyone talking about health care, taxes, or any other mundane issue, so these threats just get shrugged off by people who say “so, they’re stupid, lets move on” and never get examined under the microscope.
There are about a THOUSAND threads on health care and taxes to discuss those issues in.
THIS thread is about death threats to the President.
And once more the GOP has successfully swept it under the rug, in part thanks to mentality like yours that says “so, its’ stupid, what else is there to say?”.
This thread should be plastered with real outrage and umbrage over the collective effort to rally Americans to harm the President that is being sponsored by the GOP.
But the GOP doesn’t want that, so its not.
August 12th, 2009 at 4:53 pmWe dance really good when we want to.
Too bad we’re always dancing to the GOP’s tune and not our own.
August 12th, 2009 at 4:54 pmOK. It was stupid. It was outrageous. You can rant for thirty posts and we will see how that effects the way the SCLM covers this story. You arent wrong. I HOPE this story gets huge play and it ignites a dialogue on how the right is poisoning public discourse. That would be GREAT. I just am not going to hold my breath.
August 12th, 2009 at 5:06 pmIt was more than stupid. And it’s not “ranting” to discuss or show outrage over the GOP sponsoring threats against the President.
Over the past weeks we’ve seen the GOP riling up the angry mobs, providing a platform for ARMED protesters to wave signs calling for the President’s assassination (see yesterdays threads) and now today another threat on his life.
If we don’t discuss it, if we don’t cast a BRIGHT LIGHT on it, then who will?
The GOP has turned the corner. They have turned into an enemy of the state.
August 12th, 2009 at 5:18 pmI didnt mean you WERE ranting. You miss my point. We are the equivalent of a cocktail party discussion here. I am saying we could BOTH RANT away for half this thread what difference would it make in how the SCLM covers this story. They SHOULD and yet look how they covered the brownshirt tactics at the townhall meetings. They act like the REAL topic is whether or not it is grassroots or is the left attacking dissent and did Pelosi call them nazis and un-American. We are in agreement about the dialogue in this country and that the right is poisoning it I think deliberatly. They NEVER want to talk about REAL issues. Making the discussion itself distasteful to Americans or look trivial definitly works for their gameplan. I will discuss it for as long as it is being talked about but that doesnt mean we are changing things so its silly to act like we are being manipulated by the right to go off topic in THIS venue because no rightwinger will try to justify it. IF this thread were a thousand posts long and we were talking passionatly and exclusively about this. What would it change? All we can do is shine a bit of a light on the way the media is acting and hope to raise the awareness of a few people open to seeing the man behind the curtain and the topic itself does that
August 12th, 2009 at 5:26 pmWe’ve got RNC media personalities like Glen Beck and Rush Limbaughout telling people the President intends to kill the old people. GOP celebrities like Sarah Palin are also spreading that lie as well as senators and congressman like Grassley.
We’ve got them out saying the President is ready to declare martial law for crying out loud, and comparing him to the Nazi’s.
President Obama is perhaps the most reasonable, soft spoken, amicable, moderate and middle of the road President we’ve had in decades. He offends no one. He has no harsh stances. He has no radical agendas.
Yet these people are painting him as the Anti-Christ and effectively painting a target on him for their gun toting nutcase constituents.
It’s insane and it needs to stop now.
August 12th, 2009 at 5:28 pm261. misscoleopteramolly says:
That’s really an excellent point. There are several examples of that sort of thing happening, where someone decides that some (relatively) abstract political program or project is just the thing for some polity and it crashes badly. If the program isn’t designed initially to fit into the culture, as happened with the Marxist program and Russia, for instance, the whole thing fails, crashes.
That’s not to imply that Marxism would necessarily have worked elsewhere, but that failure for any socio-econo-political program being brought into a culture from an external source is virtually guaranteed when no account is taken of culture, existing political and social institutions, etc.
August 12th, 2009 at 5:33 pmWAYNEBRO says:
I couldnt agree with you more. The real answer is to raise the awareness of the American people now if we can just figure out how to do that…
August 12th, 2009 at 5:35 pmEugene, I have no contempt for the working class. I am the working class. I also know that the top 50% of wage earners pay 97% of the taxes. It’s really hard for you to argue with that stat.
August 12th, 2009 at 5:40 pmaaronk says:
Yes you do. You made that clear. Why would I argue with it. First of all the top 50% of wage earners include an awful lot of middle class, working class, people. So I am sure you THOUGHT you made a point but you didnt.
August 12th, 2009 at 5:49 pmoh haven’t you heard? It’s us “leftists” that are the hateful ones…just ask our trolls…*sarcasm
August 12th, 2009 at 5:49 pmHave you thought that perhaps the top 1% make SO much that how much they pay skews the percentage a bit more? Let’s say a CEO making 13 million pays 6 million in taxes. That’s a helluva lot more than 50 workers making $50,000 and paying $8,000 each in taxes.
August 12th, 2009 at 5:52 pmBill Gates makes so much the IRS computers can’t even handle his tax return. Don’t you think, Aaron, that he alone can skew the % of taxes paid by the richest Americans upward a few points?
August 12th, 2009 at 5:57 pmyes it can kitty, but a large portion of the population pays basically nothing in taxes….NOTHING!
August 12th, 2009 at 6:04 pmI also know that the top 50% of wage earners pay 97% of the taxes. It’s really hard for you to argue with that stat.
Did you want to argue with these stats that show that the top 1% control 1/3 of America’s wealth?
The top 5% control over 2/3’s
And the TOP 20% control OVER 80% of the wealth and income???
http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html
Yeah… I think they can afford to pay their share of the tax burden. Which should be commensurate with their wealth, right?
August 12th, 2009 at 6:06 pmaaronk says:
yes it can kitty, but a large portion of the population pays basically nothing in taxes….NOTHING!
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
You are a fool led around by the nose by the screechmonkeys you allow to do your thinking for you. That is a rightwing talking point and an especially STUPID ONE. Everytime you buy gas you pay taxes you pay taxes if you own a home OR RENT, you paytaxes whenever you buy virtually anything. You pay taxes when you pay your phone bill. Everyone who pays income pays FICA taxes. So NO there is NOT a large portion of the population that pays nothing in taxes NOTHING and only someone very STUPID would regurgitate that idiocy because he was programmed with it and too stupid to think about it for the two seconds it would take to see how ludicrous it is
August 12th, 2009 at 6:12 pmFor anyone who makes under $100.000, the tax rate runs around 30%. Now if someone making a million were to pay at the same level, that would be about $300,000 dollars.
I am sure someone can find statistics to say this is so.
August 12th, 2009 at 6:17 pmaaronk says:
yes it can kitty, but a large portion of the population pays basically nothing in taxes….NOTHING!
That would include the people who don’t make enough to qualify to pay and those who make so much they don’t have to pay. Half of this equation have a reason.
August 12th, 2009 at 6:19 pmThe devil is in the details, aaronk… as EugeneDebs pointed out, just ’cause you pay no income tax does not mean you live a tax free life… sales taxes are extra burdensome to the working poor.
And as Hoodathunk pointed out, it’s not the poor who say things like ‘We don’t pay taxes… taxes are for the little people.’
Is it?
August 12th, 2009 at 6:24 pmaaronk, any comment on Richard E. Ralston’s hatred of charities like your Mathew 25? Do you still think he’s got the best prescription to fix America’s healthcare system?
Any comment on the link pastcaring posted that demonstrated how Hitler was not the leftist you claimed him to be?
Any comment about on the lack of evidence for the shooter of the military recruiters being a “liberal” as you claimed? How Islamic extremists and conservative Christian dominionists share political similarities with each other?
Just curious.
August 12th, 2009 at 6:25 pmEugene. A good friend of mine is a waitress. Because most of her wages are tips, she paid $44 in federal taxes last year. Because she has 3 kids and files her tax return individually, she received a $6,000 return. Do you care to tell me how much she paid in taxes again?
August 12th, 2009 at 8:11 pmaaronk says:
Eugene. A good friend of mine is a waitress. Because most of her wages are tips, she paid $44 in federal taxes last year. Because she has 3 kids and files her tax return individually, she received a $6,000 return. Do you care to tell me how much she paid in taxes again?
Okay… how much wealth does she control?
August 12th, 2009 at 8:33 pmWhat’s her percentage of income compared to the rest of the nation?
‘Cause she’s probably in that bottom 80% like me that controls and receives about 15% of the nation’s wealth and income.
Care to tell me why we should pay more than 50% of the taxes again?
Not everywhere.
August 12th, 2009 at 8:35 pmNot everywhere.
True.
There are 5 states without a state sales tax… wanna address the broader theme of my posts?
August 12th, 2009 at 8:37 pmIf those states can do without a State Income tax or a Sales tax (NH)it proves it can be done in this country.
In most European countries they pay as much as 70% of their income in taxes.
It all depends on what you get for the money or what you expect to get for your money.
August 12th, 2009 at 8:43 pmIf those states can do without a State Income tax or a Sales tax (NH)it proves it can be done in this country.
In most European countries they pay as much as 70% of their income in taxes.
It all depends on what you get for the money or what you expect to get for your money.
So you don’t want to address it?
Why shouldn’t those with the most wealth be expected to contribute the most in taxes?
New Hampshire has some of the highest property tax rates in the nation to make up for it’s lack of state income or sales taxes… do you believe that property taxes are a better method of collecting revenue?
August 12th, 2009 at 8:47 pmaaronk says:
You dont really realize how offensive you are do you? So you know ONE working poor lady and base an ignorant statment like middle class people dont pay much taxes and a large portion of Americans pay NO taxes NOTHING on THAT? Grow up. You have that stupid Calvinist attitude that the poor are morally inferior and deserve to suffer and those with a lot of money are morally superior. It is stupid. If I wanted to have a lot of money I would. I make a good living and more important I CONTRIBUTE to society and as a working class guy I pay a lot of taxes. Workers pay a lot of taxes. I have never made a dime off another mans sweat and I never will. THAT is important to me. Do you really think everyone judges themselves by how much money they make or what car they drive? We arent all that superficial and hollow inside. I care about my nieghbor. I have a good life, health insurance, a good pension. I want my neighbor to not DIE from being poor. We are all in this together and the selfish Ebenezer Scrooge worshipping idiots who want to isolate us and pretend its every man for himself are destroying this society.
August 12th, 2009 at 8:49 pmIt all depends on what you get for the money or what you expect to get for your money.
This is true.
And France and Germany receive much better health care (to pick my two favorite examples) and universal coverage.
And while their initial tax burden may be higher (usually around 8% of income) the actual cost for health care is much, much less… see how this works?
August 12th, 2009 at 8:50 pmIf those countries can have Universal Coverage and better care it proves it can work in this country… right?
August 12th, 2009 at 8:51 pmarmand says:
Everywhere might not have sales tax but there is NOWHERE you can live and pay no taxes. There are gas taxes, and property taxes EVERYWHERE. Every phone bill has a tax. Know many families without a phone? HE was flat out WRONG when saying a large portion of people pay NO taxes. It is a flat out lie. One being pushed by the right
August 12th, 2009 at 8:53 pmWell in the case of NH, you pay according to your property value. The poor who don’t own but rent pay nothing. This is a geat benefit for them. The people who rent to them pay more because the property is more valuable, they get rental income from it.
Seems benificial to the poor to me. Those who don’t own property still have the schools and the support of the community.
Do you think that a guy who has a million dollars and drives down the highway gets more benefit from his tax dollars than the guy who only has a thousand dollars?
August 12th, 2009 at 8:55 pmDo you think that a guy who has a million dollars and drives down the highway gets more benefit from his tax dollars than the guy who only has a thousand dollars?
No- but I DO think that those who control the most wealth should pay the most in taxes, do you agree?
And the top 1% control 1/3 of the wealth and income… should they not also be responsible for 1/3 of the tax burden?
August 12th, 2009 at 8:59 pmI just said that. It works in NH.
August 12th, 2009 at 9:01 pmarmand says:
He passes those taxes on to the renters IN their rent to it is not really accurate to say they dont pay the property tax. THEY pay it. IT doesnt come from the pocket of the property owner but from the profit off the rent.
There is no QUESTION the rich get more from the investment society made into all our ability to make money. I used public education to read. Employers use public education for the basic training of their employees. I use the highway system to get to work. HL Hunt used it to build a billion dollar trucking company. Businesses use it to get their goods to market. A huge part of our foriegn aid goes to other countries to buy OUR goods. A large part of our economy is public cost to privat profit. Also risks of the financial market are nationalized while the profits are privitized. So yeah the rich get a whole LOT more from our investments and they SHOULD kick in more
August 12th, 2009 at 9:02 pmActually, I take that back. I DO think that the rich get more value for their tax dollars. They pay less as a percentage of income and wealth and have FAR better access to their elected officials and other less direct means of influencing policy and politics.
August 12th, 2009 at 9:06 pmI just said that. It works in NH.
You didn’t answer the second part… shouldn’t those who control 1/3 of the wealth be responsible for something closer to 1/3 of the tax burden?
And since the collectivist plans of France and Germany work so well there, shouldn’t they work here?
August 12th, 2009 at 9:07 pmEugene Debs said it better than I did. Thanks, Eugene.
August 12th, 2009 at 9:08 pmAs in any rental property.
People have to live somewhere. Owning rental property isn’t expense free. There are costs and State regulations are strict. Rental prices are reasonable in NH depending on how and where you want to live and what you expect for your money.
It gets back to what you expect to get for your money.
August 12th, 2009 at 9:08 pmbelaccifer lacca says:
Thank you I appreciate that
August 12th, 2009 at 9:09 pmarmand says:
Yeah. I dont know what your point is. AGAIN it isnt really accurate to say the renters dont pay property tax rather they DO as part of their rent
August 12th, 2009 at 9:10 pmIt gets back to what you expect to get for your money.
I agree… so when it has been shown to be more efficient to follow the example of France and Germany and invest in Universal Coverage why do you think that we here in the United States resist?
Do we expect less for our money? We certainly receive far, far less and pay far more.
August 12th, 2009 at 9:11 pmTo answer your first part. I don’t really know. It’s fine to pay according to ones wealth I suppose.
To answer your second part. I don’t think so. Germany has a problem with its young leaving the country because they can’t find the oppotunities to build wealth under the German system. It’s around 100 thousand a year. 80% of them come here. I read it somewhere last year. I have no idea about France.
Short answer, no.
August 12th, 2009 at 9:22 pmaaronk’s waitress friend is a tax cheat. Tips are taxable income.
August 12th, 2009 at 9:26 pmGermany has a problem with its young leaving the country because they can’t find the oppotunities to build wealth under the German system. It’s around 100 thousand a year. 80% of them come here. I read it somewhere last year.
Actually about 13,000 a year come here from Germany… which is a lot but nowhere near 80% of those who leave. Most go to other countries in Europe (mostly Switzerland) and all of those countries have Universal Health Care as well.
So since 80% choose countries that also have a universal health care plan can we safely assume there are other factors at work?
And it still comes down to what value you expect for your money… we spend THE MOST in the entire world on health care and yet rank 37th in quality of care… you don’t find that alarming?
August 12th, 2009 at 9:29 pmThe greater portion of the tax is paid by the property owner. The lesser part by the renter. The fact that there are no a State income taxes or Sales taxes the poor in the State are better off under that system.
You’re right everyone pays. Again it gets back to what you get for your money.
August 12th, 2009 at 9:30 pmActually it was about 150 thousand who left Germany in 2005.
Many have returned to Germany. Still 66 thousand left last year. I’m not sure where they all went but many came here.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,399537,00.html
Here’s an interesting site about doctors leaving Germany and why. 12,500 Doctors left the country. (Berlin Reuters).
August 12th, 2009 at 9:57 pmarmand says:
Really. The greater part of the tax is paid by the owners. It is NOT an expense that they pass on to the renter? You know this HOW? Got some evidence this is true? Why WOULD it be?
August 12th, 2009 at 10:06 pmMr. Debs, I know you don’t need my help here, but I am a landlord. In true capitalist fashion I factor tax, insurance, and market factors into the rent I request for my property. Of course the renter pays the tax as part of their rent, how else could the landlord make a profit? I’ve no idea where the fallacy that renters pay no property tax came from, but ’round here it’s a common argument whenever the county contemplates raising property taxes to pay for schools.
August 12th, 2009 at 10:14 pmI lived there for a while. I attended local tax meetings and I can read. If rent is low and is lower than national levels and Property taxes are higher than other States, then the property owner pays a greater portion of the tax.
Because you can only charge what the market will allow.
Of course some of it is passed on to the renter.
But what does the renter get for what he pays? How much does it cost to put a child in school? How much does it cost to maintain the highways? How much does the renter pay for these things if he has 3 children and pays $600 to $800 dollars a month.
All good questions to be considered.
August 12th, 2009 at 10:27 pmThanks for your input. I’m talking about the tax structure in NH. Research it. What does a renter (poor) get for what he pays in NH. What he gets far outways what he pays. That’s my point.
That is what I have said all along. What dou you get for what you pay? The poor are far better under this system than in other States.
Why are you so confrontational here?
I’m Sorry I found this place.
August 12th, 2009 at 10:37 pmThis is true. Everyone has to pay some sort of tax in life. Even in NH you have to pay Federal income taxes.
It is nice for everyone in NH not to have to pay a State tax or some type of sales tax. Surprising thing though, other taxes are not too high there. You only have to pay for rubbish disposal that you use.
Some towns charge no property tax for the elderly above a certain age and below a certain income level.
The price of a car is less. All big ticket items are tax free, no taxes on clothes and groceries. no taxes on medicine or health care, sure there are some Federal taxes there like everywhere. So there are many advantages to their system. That’s all I’m saying.
It gets back to what you get for what you pay. Many low income people live well there. They also have a very good State assistance program for the poor there.
Have a good night.
August 12th, 2009 at 10:58 pmarmand says:
None of your attempts show that they DONT pass on the tax to the renters and I dont see why they WOULDNT. As for rents being lower that is a regional thing. Rents are lower in AZ than in California and property taxes are often MUCH higher NONE of this means the landlords in Cal are not passing the tax on to the renters in either state.
August 12th, 2009 at 11:22 pmSince the lions share of highway maintenance is paid for through gas taxes there is no way to tell how much those in your example are paying no matter HOW many kids they have until we know how much they drive. What we DO know is that though a semi wears the highway a hundred times as much any passenger car yet they pay the same gas tax per gallon it it a subsidy to the truking industry and again we are talking about public cost and private profit. As far as the child in school since our entire economy benifits from having an educated workforce and our entire country benifits from the people IN that country being educated, Do you want a cook or truck driver that cant read? Your point is irrelevant in fact it is a non point.
armand says:
You do get what you pay for. In high tax California when I was growing up if your kid wanted to play Pop Warner football the state paid for MOST of the costs the kid bought a helmet and cleats and thats it. Little leage the same wrestling a 6 dollar charge for the entire season all the tournaments you could go to. The Norton Simon museum of Art with one of the worlds most important impressionist painting collection cost a dollar to get in most museums free. The beaches had showers. All free. So if you are poor there are still world class entertainments for the family that are free or nearly free. The opportunities these things open up are incalcuable.
August 12th, 2009 at 11:28 pmIt’s too bad you see things that way. I don’t.
August 12th, 2009 at 11:41 pmBut now they are bankrupt giving out IOU’s and releasing 40 thousand criminals to reduce their cost.
Thanks for your non point.
August 12th, 2009 at 11:45 pmNot to butt in here, but we all get far more that what we pay for…that is the whole concept of a collective pot that we all chip in for…
August 12th, 2009 at 11:49 pmarmand says:
It’s too bad you see things that way. I don’t.
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If you prefer your delusional fantasies. Good luck. Those are plain facts. If you dont LIKE factual reality oh well.
August 12th, 2009 at 11:51 pmMr. Armand,
August 12th, 2009 at 11:51 pmNH or elsewhere, if you can’t get cash flow from your properties it’s not the fault of the tax system, you’ve simply made a bad investment.
I’m sorry you see things the way you do. I’m not delusional by any means. No fantasies either. It seems that you consider your opinions facts.
A persons opinions are usually their reality. I wish you all the best with that one.
August 12th, 2009 at 11:56 pmarmand says:
But now they are bankrupt giving out IOU’s and releasing 40 thousand criminals to reduce their cost.
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California has the sixth largest economy in the world and we are in a worldwide economic meltdown it would be miraculous if they werent in trouble. Our country is broke too does that mean its a bad place to live?
Thanks for your non point.
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It was a good point. Not my fault it flew over your head like a 747 over a cornfield
August 12th, 2009 at 11:56 pmThanks, I’ll keep that in mind. It is not what my conversation was all about but it seem to be a reasonable statement. I never mentioned anything about the tax system preventing cash flow.
Is that what you read? Sorry about that. I was talking about the benefits of the NH tax system and lack of taxes benefitting the poor. It does and it does it very well.
August 13th, 2009 at 12:02 amarmand says:
No YOUR opinions are your reality since you apparantly cannot tell the difference between a fact and your fantasies. Is it my OPINION that most highway maintenance is paid for by the gas tax?
http://americanaffairs.suite101.com/article.cfm/commission_calls_for_gas_tax_increases_for_roads
In 1956, the Highway Trust Fund (HTF) account was established by Congress to provide a reliable source of funding for the building and maintenance of the Interstate Highway System. The HTF is funded by the federal gas tax, and taxes on truck and tire sales. The idea in 1956 was that users of the system would pay for its construction and maintenance.
So NO it is one of those things known as a FACT. Are you REALLY arguing that the entire country DOESNT benifit from the citizenry being educated? The Semi thing I dont know it is a hundred times as much but the average car weighs two tons and a semi is closer to 40 tons. Yet they both pay the gas tax per gallon. I dont see how you can possibly argue that isnt a subsidy then again you didnt MAKE an argument did you. You just stated your delusional fantasy that my FACTS were opinions.
August 13th, 2009 at 12:08 amIt was a non point.
The country is having its problems but some people are doing better than others because of the decisions they have made in their Governemnt.
NH pays their State Reps $100 dollars a year and they only meet for a couple weeks of the year. Yet everything seems to works in the State just fine.
They don’t have to release any criminals to balance the budget this year.
August 13th, 2009 at 12:09 amI was talking about the benefits of the NH tax system and lack of taxes benefitting the poor. It does and it does it very well.
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See now THAT is an OPINION
August 13th, 2009 at 12:10 amarmand says:
No it wasnt a non point you just werent bright enough to understand the point. Yeah. When New Hampshire has the sixth largest economy in the WORLD get back to us. There is a pretty big difference between Cal, its 30 million people, its agricultural irrigation needs. And its HUGE economy and New Hampshire. There is a difference between apples and oranges too.
August 13th, 2009 at 12:13 amTrust me NH only does it well for those that moved there with money. The schools are problematicly funded. Property rich but income poor elderly are screwed. There is talk about an imaginary ” advantage” but no one seems to know what the hell that stupid shit is supposed to mean. Basically the state gets by on sticking it to tourists, lottery tickets, and booze.
August 13th, 2009 at 12:16 amYet everything seems to works in the State just fine
August 13th, 2009 at 12:17 am—
Apparently you have never heard of Claremont 1 or Claremont 2.
NH retirement system is doing just fine as well… Not…
August 13th, 2009 at 12:18 amEugeneDebs says:
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armand says:
Yes, unless a state diverts that income for other things like Mass. does. Not all highway costs come from gas taxes though.
http://americanaffairs.suite101.com/article.cfm/commission_calls_for_gas_tax_increases_for_roads
Looks good on paper but the (Htf) are raided in almost every state. Highway’s are usually paid for through bond sales.
Sorry but that is someone else. I never went there.
Not totally true. The semi pays a road use tax in every state they travel through. Not just a gas tax.
Again with the delusional statement.
OH well. You may have a fact but not all the facts as this last post proves.
August 13th, 2009 at 12:20 amAlthough NH does at least seem to have a reasonable handle on gay marriage…
August 13th, 2009 at 12:30 amI never said it was perfect. It does have its merits. It is very successful in the way it is set up. Raising taxes is going on everywhere around the country.
http://www.governor.nh.gov/news/2009/021209.html
They do know how to balance the budget.
Calling me a “bumbling ignorant fool” really helps your argument though and lowers you credibility.
August 13th, 2009 at 12:34 amHave you ever been to the State?
August 13th, 2009 at 12:36 amSo go call that person a delusional crackpot.
I never said that.
August 13th, 2009 at 12:38 amCheck out NH’s alcohol stats…
August 13th, 2009 at 12:38 amI have lived in the state but I don’t live there now.
The poverty increase is due to the high taxes in the neighboring states, (Mass.) so many move to NH because the cost of living is lower there.
They handle it.
August 13th, 2009 at 12:42 amHave you ever been to the State?
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August 13th, 2009 at 12:43 amYes, What about yourself…
bullshit the people that move to NH are affluent white folks that want to horde their money. The move ins have nothing to do with the poverty issue…
August 13th, 2009 at 12:45 amActually I didn’t say that. You’re confusing me with someone else. Say you’re sorry.
August 13th, 2009 at 12:45 amArmand. Just when did you live in NH?
August 13th, 2009 at 12:46 amFor someone that claims to have lived in NH, I am suprised they would not be familiar with the Claremont decisions…
August 13th, 2009 at 12:47 am435
August 13th, 2009 at 12:53 amIt is obvious that you have been across the border…
You don’t know who says what and you call me a fool.
Bye, I don’t discuss things with people like you. You have some sort of problem. I don’t know what it is but I don’t have to deal with it. It’s not with me.
August 13th, 2009 at 12:53 amThat is also a big benefit. Yes I’m well aware of that. What is your probem?
August 13th, 2009 at 12:55 amYou are so late to the conversation. Go back and read what was said.
It seems that it is you who lack awareness here. It’s all been discussed earlier. Go read some of it before you go calling people names.
I can’t help you with your problem. It’s too deep for me. Sorry.
August 13th, 2009 at 1:00 amRental prices are reasonable in NH depending on how and where you want to live and what you expect for your money.
August 13th, 2009 at 1:00 am–
So Armand. Where exactly have you rented in NH?
I wonder why Armand can only make vague opinion based generalizations about a place Armand claims to have lived…
August 13th, 2009 at 1:04 amI’m sorry db but I’m out of here. I don’t intend on letting that last idiot bother me.
I lived in Manchester, Raymond, Exeter, and Deerfield.
Exeter was the most expensive.
Bye.
August 13th, 2009 at 1:06 amI don’t care what you think. I don’t care for people like you. You have a problem.
August 13th, 2009 at 1:08 amAnd when was this? Oh if it matters Raymond is still a shithole…
August 13th, 2009 at 1:08 amarmand says:
You dont even know what you are arguing. I didnt say they still BUILT the highways. I said they were the lions share of the MAINTENANCE of the highways which is what is relevant when you asked how much a family used them. You ADMIT they cause a lot more wear and pay the same per gallon tax and STILL dont get it? Hey EVERY business pays a licensing fee that isnt the same thing and you STILl dont get it you STILL argue that isnt a subsidy? Sorry. You just arent bright enough to waste my time on anymore. You have your delusional fantasies and cant even recognize a fact. Good luck being brainwashed and uninformed, not to mention totally immune to reality
August 13th, 2009 at 1:13 amNot so. So you show your lack of the area. Raymond is very nice farm country.
August 13th, 2009 at 1:13 amI guess you’re trying to make a point here but I don’t see it. I see platitudes and convoluted statements.
Sorry.
August 13th, 2009 at 1:20 amNo it isn’t. Manch is a freakin’ horror show and the Deerfield Fair is the same everytime…
August 13th, 2009 at 1:29 amarmand says:
Great libraries could be filled exclusively with things you dont understand. I fail to see how YOUR lack of comprehension is MY problem. Like I said you just arent bright enough to converse with. My point was simple enough a reasonably bright six year old would understand it and only convoluted to someone with the reading comprehension of a cockroach. Adult education, look into it.
August 13th, 2009 at 1:31 amEugeneDebs says:
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I was quite clear in what I posted. You are not. I noticed that anything that was posted that countered your statements was over your head or ignored. I don’t really believe that you care to have a discussion. You fooled me. You just post things to see if you can get someone frustrated.
What is wrong with you?
Sorry. I don’t have to deal with you either.
August 13th, 2009 at 1:45 am