For ‘Death Panels’ Before She Was Against Them? Palin Endorsed End Of Life Counseling As Governor
For ‘Death Panels’ Before She Was Against Them? Palin Endorsed End Of Life Counseling As Governor
In recent weeks, right-wing groups have been pushing the myth that health care reform will somehow kill seniors. One of the most high profile voices pushing this lie has been Sarah Palin, who claimed President Obama will institute bureaucratic “death panels.” Today, again on her Facebook page, she continued the attack. Though some Republicans have rebuffed this absurd, inaccurate notion — like Johnny Isakson (R-GA), who called such talk “nuts” — others, like Newt Gingrich, have piled on to agree with Palin.
However, on April 16th 2008, then Gov. Sarah Palin endorsed some of the same end of life counseling she now decries as a form of euthanasia. In a proclamation announcing “Healthcare Decisions Day,” Palin urged public facilities to provide better information about advance directives, and made it clear that it is critical for seniors to be informed of such options:
WHEREAS, Healthcare Decisions Day is designed to raise public awareness of the need to plan ahead for healthcare decisions, related to end of life care and medical decision-making whenever patients are unable to speak for themselves and to encourage the specific use of advance directives to communicate these important healthcare decisions. [...]
WHEREAS, one of the principal goals of Healthcare Decisions Day is to encourage hospitals, nursing homes, assisted living facilities, continuing care retirement communities, and hospices to participate in a statewide effort to provide clear and consistent information to the public about advance directives, as well as to encourage medical professionals and lawyers to volunteer their time and efforts to improve public knowledge and increase the number of Alaska’s citizens with advance directives.
WHEREAS, the Foundation for End of Life Care in Juneau, Alaska, and other organizations throughout the United States have endorsed this event and are committed to educating the public about the importance of discussing healthcare choices and executing advance directives.
Though this proclamation is now deleted from the Alaska governor’s website, it shows that Palin’s current fear-mongering is purely political. Palin is not the only conservative leader completely flip-flopping on this issue. Merely months ago, Gingrich too endorsed end of life counseling. At a conference in April of this year, Gingrich said advance directives can “save money” while also helping to “decrease the stress felt by caregivers.”
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Of course we all know…
… The Right to life ends after birth.
And death panels already exist in private health insurance.
You bet’cha!
.
August 13th, 2009 at 2:52 pmCaption: I’ll sign anyone’s balls that agrees with me.
August 13th, 2009 at 2:52 pmSarah Palin is a…
Fcking Liar
Fcking Hypocrite
Fcking Fraud
You betcha!
August 13th, 2009 at 2:54 pmI think Bill Maher is right on this one . .
President Obama should show his ‘long form’ birth certificate when Sarah Palin shows her HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMA!
August 13th, 2009 at 2:55 pm- – Go ahead, make stuff up: http://palinquotes.sillycloud.com/
August 13th, 2009 at 2:59 pmI’m amazed the press is still giving her coverage but I guess you’ve got to gin up readership somehow..he is SO not relevant. AND as long as we’re on the subject, she has also proven with this latest facebook dribble that she has graduated to one of the truly stupidest people on earth.
August 13th, 2009 at 3:01 pmI think I see the problem. Her left neuron doesn’t know what her right neuron is saying….
Cheers,
August 13th, 2009 at 3:01 pmHowever, on April 16th 2008, then Gov. Sarah Palin endorsed some of the same end of life counseling she now decries as a form of euthanasia.
Interesting. Trig Palin was born (if you believe the official storyline) on April 18, 2008.
Perhaps nothing happens in Sarah’s world until it actually happens to Sarah. Abstinence anyone?
PEACE
August 13th, 2009 at 3:03 pmConTURDS are stupid; they believe stupid things told by other stupid people.
August 13th, 2009 at 3:04 pmThey WANT to believe said, stupid things.
zuch says:
I think you’re being generous attributing two functioning neurons to Palin. I’d start with zero and work my way up to one.
PEACE
August 13th, 2009 at 3:05 pmIgnorance is the lack of Knowlege; Stupidity, however, requires an Active Component
August 13th, 2009 at 3:05 pmThe sad fact is that Bible Spice is too effing stupid to know what she’s saying and too effing self-centered to care what others really think.
August 13th, 2009 at 3:06 pmOh fer the luvva FSM!!! What the bloody hell is wrong with these people?? They inhale oxygen and exhale LIES with every single damn breath!
Does it ever occur to any of them that their lies are so ridiculously easy to debunk? Or is it something far more sinister than just garden-variety stupidity?
Do they lie with every breath, knowing full well that they own the media, and that their wingnut followers simply don’t care what is truth and what isn’t…?
August 13th, 2009 at 3:07 pmPalin / Bachmann – 2012
August 13th, 2009 at 3:07 pmOf course she did.
It’s a sensible policy to have, and only because a Democratic President and Congress agree does she now feel the need to demonize it.
Oh, please, John Stewart, make sure EVERYONE know about this. In fact, I’m going to try to email him right now.
August 13th, 2009 at 3:08 pmOh- loook! Ther’s a CONTURD TROLL lurking, and thumb-downing everthang!
August 13th, 2009 at 3:09 pmOh- loook! Ther’s a CONTURD TROLL lurking, and thumb-downing everthang!
August 13th, 2009 at 3:09 pmThough this proclamation is now deleted from the Alaska governor’s website
Boy, I wonder if they were hoping no one would notice….
August 13th, 2009 at 3:10 pmNot only that, but it appears that an Alaska statute provides a model form of an appropriate advance health care directive, making it easier for an individual to complete one. (Many states do this). Under Palin’s reasoning, I suppose such a law is a “death statute.” What a hypocrite!
August 13th, 2009 at 3:10 pmSo. Is our stupid troll going to try to convince us that Bible Spice is not effing stupid?
August 13th, 2009 at 3:14 pmSarah- you’re a mess, sister. give it up,
August 13th, 2009 at 3:14 pmTWEET THIS SCARAH!
August 13th, 2009 at 3:16 pmCaption: [signs ball] With Love, Peggy Hill
August 13th, 2009 at 3:18 pmATTENTION WRITERS AND EDITORS OF THINK PROGRESS.
In the UK their is a groundswell of support against the US rightwing slandering of the NHS. Please pay attention to this and use the information to debunk the callous lies by right wing news, commentators and bloggers.
Information here
August 13th, 2009 at 3:18 pmHey I think I found watchpoop:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-us-police-standoff,0,6695562.story
August 13th, 2009 at 3:19 pmSarah Palin is the physical embodiment of Murdoch’s Magic Money Making Formula.
Fear + Hate + Gratuitous Sexuality = $$$$$$$
August 13th, 2009 at 3:19 pmAugust 13th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
ATTENTION WRITERS AND EDITORS OF THINK PROGRESS.
In the UK their is a groundswell of support against the US rightwing slandering of the NHS. Please pay attention to this and use the information to debunk the callous lies by right wing news, commentators and bloggers.
Information below
http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/52120,news,how-father-ted-creator-graham-linehan-sparked-nhs-backlash-on-twitter-against-fox-news-glenn-beck-and-the-american-right
August 13th, 2009 at 3:19 pmSarah has lot on her plate now that she gave up her job. Her daughter Willow is going wild and drinking/drugs at parties and might go the way of Bristol. Then it’s the divorce from Todd who doesn’t know what it’s like to earn a living so he’s a little upset with Sarah with no job. Then there the calls from the calls from Republican Law Makers looking to get some alone time with Sarah as each thought the wink was to them. Vitters now knows he wont have to pay for those prostitutes like Wendy and Senator Ensign can now get his action from Sarah and not an aide. Ok other Law Makers like Graham, McConnell and Boehner aren’t interested in woman but who knows there might be a place for Todd after all. Sarah knows when Levi’s books comes out she will be exposed for lying about Trig being her son and why Sarah refuses to let Bristol and Levi have a DNA test on the second child, which will prove Levi isn’t his Father. All the pictures and information is given by those who live in Alaska as Sarah has no power but has many enemies.
August 13th, 2009 at 3:20 pm***
this will cheer you up :)
. . .
August 13th, 2009 at 3:20 pmOxygen-starved-brain
August 13th, 2009 at 3:22 pmChoked by crushing stranglehold
Of her own sphincter
Thanks UKconcerned. Great story!
August 13th, 2009 at 3:24 pmPoor Sarah… Her life looks alot like the current G.O.P., out of touch, spooked, ignorant, scared.
It seems the loonies have the upper hand but sooner or later people will have had enough already.
I think we are seeing the last gasps of a party that is falling down a flight of stairs. They could break their neck, they could break an arm but either way they will be injured and it will take them years in the wilderness to come to terms with it.
Will they ditch the looney base or….
The progressives need to push back HARD but with clear, factual, concise information, it will win in the end.
I would rather loose the short term than stoop to their level.
August 13th, 2009 at 3:26 pmA Patriotic Anopheles Acting,
Not a problem, please pass the information on to anyone you know who will be willing to listen.
Furthermore this article is a must read in for a fair analysis of US and NHS healthcare, from an American citizen.
http://potentialandexpectations.wordpress.com/2009/08/13/this-americans-experience-of-britains-healthcare-system/
August 13th, 2009 at 3:26 pm#13 LS Annie
I understand your frustration, and I can tell you that most conservatives do not have an attention span greater than a day (at most).
Machinelike, they queue up every day for instructions on how to think, what to talk about, how to go about the business of their corporate masters.
I would compare them to bovines, but that would be an insult to the bovine. The human brain is much more complex than that of a bovine, given that it is exercised now and again by critical thinking.
Machines do not think–they do whatever they are programmed to do.
Like conservatives.
August 13th, 2009 at 3:28 pmCan someone put this on the front page of newspapers – above the fold, so passers by can see it.
August 13th, 2009 at 3:31 pmHot off the wire, from AP this morning.
August 13th, 2009 at 3:33 pm
Why am I not surprised..
So in reality Palin actually has pretty much the same views as Obama on this issue. If she were an honest independent person (a Maverick if you will) she would come out in support of the President and defend him against all these baseless accusations and lies about “euthanasia”
Instead she lashes out against Obama and claims he threatens to kill her baby and her parents with the aid of his “death-panels” knowing full well shes lying through her teeth, whipping up even more irrational fear and hatred among millions of uninformed Americans, some of them unstable, extremely paranoid, armed and very dangerous
This feat alone should earn her some sort of life time worst person in the world award
August 13th, 2009 at 3:37 pmGOP(White supremacist party), a section of independents and a very small section of even Democrats don’t care what is there in the bill. They just can’t accept a black President and his bills. Nothing will change that. You can convince some misguided people with facts but you can never convince some people who WANT to believe in the crap propogated by Palin, Fox News etc…
August 13th, 2009 at 3:42 pmThis is really too much. So not only is Palin greatly misrepresenting the facts on the counseling provision, she actually supported end-of-life counseling when she was governor.
This is mind-boggling…
http://www.political-buzz.com/
August 13th, 2009 at 3:45 pmNo need to worry Republicans, conservatives, and trolls; Hannity and Limbaugh will pay for your “voluntary end-of-life consultations” with physicians since you and sister Sarah want it written out of the legislation. Payments will come right after Reagan’s trickle down reaches you.
August 13th, 2009 at 3:48 pmwell, you see, if ya don’t have one of them quote, death panels, why then Ol Congress will jes git in there and make those decisions fer ya.
Like they did to that Teri Shiavo girl. You betcha…
August 13th, 2009 at 3:49 pmAugust 13th, 2009 at 3:50 pm
This silly- *ss CONTURD, Troll Deluxe, is a busy little mindless- bee, this afternoon!
August 13th, 2009 at 3:54 pmThere is nothing more to comment about the twit. She definitely trying to extend her 15 minute fame. Ever since Grandpappy McSame introduce You Betcha Palin as his running mate and we all saw what this woman was worth, which is zero, nothing she says makes intelligent sense and not worth two nickels to rub with. After all, Sarah wears her tiara everyday and had put Palin first before her own state. She wouldn’t know healthcare reform from a hole in the ground. She probably thinks a hostess twinkie is the breakfast of champions.
August 13th, 2009 at 3:56 pm#42- Above the –
It’s not mine that’s a-gonna trickle down their legs from Daddy Limp- it’s urine!!!!!!!
August 13th, 2009 at 3:56 pmGrandma: Doc, I know I’m terminal and don’t have long to live. I don’t have a living will or a medical directory, and I’m in a lot of pain. Can you tell me what my choices are?
Doctor: well, if you have private insurance, I can tell you. But if you’re on Medicare, I can’t tell you.
Grandma: Why not?
Doctor: Because Republicans think they can win more elections if I don’t tell you.
Grandma: Could you do me one favor, Doc?
Doctor: What’s that?
Grandma: Scrape the McCain/Palin bumpersticker off my car.
August 13th, 2009 at 3:57 pmExcellent detective work!
August 13th, 2009 at 4:05 pmPlease someone ask Palin who is providing the medical coverage for her and all the little Palins now that she has quit her job. I doubt Todd is since he only works part time in the energy industry and I don’t think the snowmobile racing folks provide coverage.
August 13th, 2009 at 4:09 pmPalin=opportunist.
August 13th, 2009 at 4:09 pmpalin would gladly sell any member of her family (baby trig included) for thirty pieces of silver if it were politically expedient for her.
August 13th, 2009 at 4:13 pmFlip-flopping on an issue? Kind of like a dying fish flip-flopping on the deck? Now that’s something our Sarahcuda understands, eh?
August 13th, 2009 at 4:18 pmI will bet Palin quit her governors’ job as she was offered BIG $$$$$ by the sleazy health insurance industry and Big Pharma to speak lies in behalf of them. What better spokesperson of proclaimed religious beliefs could help sway the religious right against a true Christian value – taking care of the sick?
When the battle is over, Palin will be finished up.
August 13th, 2009 at 4:19 pmPalin is not the only conservative leader completely
flip-flopping on this issue.
something i did not think of at all – caller to thom hartmann:
the reason why the right is now against end of life consults
is because that can include FINANCIAL ADVICE…
the states will lose money from estates in probate (?) if there
is no will or trusts…
huh…
too far out?
(this is being reposted to a more relevant thread as i’m
August 13th, 2009 at 4:25 pmjust not catching up…)
Well, it’s not really gone from the Alaska site, just archived:
http://gov.state.ak.us/archive.php?id=1094&type=6
Ya gotta love Teh Google.
August 13th, 2009 at 4:35 pmJeepers… just like that gosh darn bridge… she said, “Thanks, but no thanks.”
August 13th, 2009 at 5:01 pmCaribou Bimbo just can’t seem to get it right has to be one of the stupidest persons on the planet
August 13th, 2009 at 5:04 pmSarah Palin claims that Obama’s healthcare reform will create death panels.
Sarah Palin endorses end of life counseling as AK Governor.
Republicans for years have been supporting eliminating Social Security and medicare.
Conclusion. The Repukes (Palin included) who are claiming that Obama will create death panels are the same morons who want to kill the elderly by taking away from the very government resources that both keep them financially secure and keeps them alive, therefore they are the REAL DEATH PANEL and has been the REAL DEATH PANEL since Reagan who also wanted to end medicare and social security!
Hypocrites! Fcuk ‘em!
August 13th, 2009 at 6:20 pmWhen are the trolls going to come in here and defend this unfit mother?
August 13th, 2009 at 6:23 pmI just read they are dropping the part of the Bill about end of life counseling because of the “confusion”. Are they kidding? A few nut jobs are making up rhetoric about “death panels” and they are caving? Is this true?
That is crazy, especially since Palin (was was making noise) was for it before she just became against it.
Where does that leave people that NEED this counseling?
August 13th, 2009 at 6:24 pmSorry, I meant to say, “she was for it……
I just read that on DailyKos.
August 13th, 2009 at 6:26 pmSP Biloxi says:
——————————————————————————–
There is nothing more to comment about the twit. She definitely trying to extend her 15 minute fame. Ever since Grandpappy McSame introduce You Betcha Palin as his running mate and we all saw what this woman was worth, which is zero, nothing she says makes intelligent sense and not worth two nickels to rub with. After all, Sarah wears her tiara everyday and had put Palin first before her own state. She wouldn’t know healthcare reform from a hole in the ground. She probably thinks a hostess twinkie is the breakfast of champions.
You betcha.
August 13th, 2009 at 6:27 pm63. Intrepid sez: SP Biloxi sez:…
WTF? You mean twinkies isn’t the breakfast of champeens? Now ya tell me. Next you all will tell me that an RC Dope and a Moon Pie isn’t righteous down home.
What the hell is it coming to? Tofu with a spritz of balsamic vinegar?
August 13th, 2009 at 6:38 pmstoopid kunt
(and that’s being nice, so STFU!)
August 13th, 2009 at 6:43 pmBut what does Joe the fake Plumber think??? He hasn’t reared his stupid ass in a while!!!
Sounds like Sara Failin has to get someone else to write her stupid facebook crap.
August 13th, 2009 at 6:48 pmtrisha08,
Grassley has dropped it from the “bipartisan alternative” his committee is considering but the provision has not been dropped from any of the current proposals in the House.
August 13th, 2009 at 7:06 pmPete: Thank you for the clarification. I appreciate it.
I just read on ABC News that Dr. Zeke Emanuel (who Palin quotes to defend her claims) says, her comments are an absolute outrage!!!!!! Good read.
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/08/zeke-emanuel-on-sarah-palins-accusation-of-death-panels-its-an-absolute-outrage.html
August 13th, 2009 at 7:13 pm00mpp00 says:
——————————————————————————–
This is really too much. So not only is Palin greatly misrepresenting the facts on the counseling provision, she actually supported end-of-life counseling when she was governor.
This is mind-boggling…
http://www.political-buzz.com
IOKIYAR
August 13th, 2009 at 7:15 pmSome idiot Republican said recently that the NHS would have let Stephen Hawking die, completely unaware of the fact that Hawking is British. Someone on the Yglesias thread made a wise-crack about how sneaky the NHS was to give him a voice synthesizer without a British accent.
It would take one hell of an imaginative writer to make this stuff up. I wish Vonnegut had hung around a little longer, but maybe he felt like he couldn’t top this.
August 13th, 2009 at 7:44 pmSarah Palin finally found out how much time a Down Syndrome child takes throuhout the day. I would like her to discuss how she takes care of her son as he grows up. She has atough time ahead of vher with him. My hope is she watches her son ,not a succession of nannies while goes and gives speeches.
August 13th, 2009 at 8:04 pmI don’t suppose any of you intelligent commenters noticed the difference between what amounts to Palin making a public service announcement encouraging people to make their wishes known about their end of life care and the government paying doctors to talk to elderly patients when they are vulnerable about end of life treatment options in a bill that is 1000 pages of government control of health care issues and in a bill that has as it’s stated intention to reduce costs?
There is no comparison between two. Unlike Barack, who has stated he is for a single payer system, but now says he is not. That’s lying – straight up.
August 13th, 2009 at 8:26 pmBridge to nowhere – cost $2 billion
Republican hypocrisy – priceless
August 13th, 2009 at 9:25 pmHB 3200
August 13th, 2009 at 9:40 pm
#
#
trisha08 says:
Where does that leave people that NEED this counseling?
Trisha08, It leaves them in exactly the spot they are in now – left alone to tell their family and physician what their desires are. Why do you libs think people are so f’ing stupid and helpless that they can’t do something so basic without the government legislating it?
August 13th, 2009 at 10:04 pmhad enough says:
I will bet Palin quit her governors’ job as she was offered BIG $$$$$ by the sleazy health insurance industry and Big Pharma to speak lies in behalf of them.
had enough: please check press reports – big pharma cut a deal with Obama. It’s called payola, they agree to back his government health care takeover, and Obama agreed to a dollar amount beyond which the pharmaceuticals would not have to kick in. The joke is on big pharma though as the democrat congress says it’s not tied to the amount in the Obama deal. And the bigger joke is on you as Big Pharma will not have as much money to research new meds for what ails you.
August 13th, 2009 at 10:19 pmWow! A Republican who’s a monster-freakin’ hypocrite isn’t exactly news. And the fact Palin is a disgusting opportunist won’t exactly make any headlines either.
And STILL I find amazed by her sheer audacity.
August 13th, 2009 at 10:37 pmIntrepid sez:
Virtual Pebble sez:
lol
August 14th, 2009 at 1:12 am“If you tell a big enough lie long enough, the people will believe it”, Adolf Hitler. I’m sure Palin sees this as her road to the White House in 2012. The same old tired tactics of attack Politics that served the GOP so well in the last election should do the trick for her, NOT! People with the mindset of Palin and her ilk are not going to solve any problems in this Nation, they are the problem.
August 14th, 2009 at 6:35 amSo, never been admitted to the hospital before, have you, jayne? If you had, then you’d know that doctors already ask you if you have have a living will or a another advanced directive, and if you say no, they offer you counseling. All the amendment in this bill was trying to do was to compensate them for their time spent counseling.
It’s f ucking idiots like YOU who are out to scare the shit out of the elderly that is acting like everyone is so f ucking stupid that they can’t understand the difference between paying a doctor for his time and trying to get elderly people to go off and die.
You just make sure that when your elderly parents are in the hospital and someone comes in to talk to them about end-of-life decisions that you get in their face and accuse them of trying to kill off your mother, because if you don’t then you’re a lousy hypocrite, you damned moron.
August 14th, 2009 at 9:50 amI can’t even believe you’d try to involve yourself in the conversation. I am outraged at people like you. Why don’t you even bother to TRY to think for yourself? Why don’t you even bother to TRY to read it, and understand it? What kind of idiot would think that politicians would actively try to kill off voters? What kind of MORON does it take to buy this bullshit hook line and sinker just because some ditz from the north and some fat slob in Florida tells you it’s true?
Do us all a favor and refrain from breeding. We don’t need genes like yours in the pool. If you have already had children, consider giving them to someone that’s not a total idiot.
August 14th, 2009 at 9:53 amsmidget, you really should take some anger management or something. Do you really believe you are the smartest person on the planet?
August 14th, 2009 at 10:42 amAnyhow, this idiot moron believes that there is a big difference between a panel of government appointees that will decide your end of life and a group of people charged with giving end of life advice.
Smidget, if you are indicative of the “Left”, then no wonder we can’t talk and work our differences out.
You really need to take some reading courses or something.
If you actually knew what you were talking about you’d know THAT THERE IS NO F UCKING PANEL.
I have no problem discussing issues. I have major problems with idiots who think they know what the hell they are talking about, like jayne, and YOU.
F uck off you ignorant, lying, twat.
August 14th, 2009 at 10:54 amLabteacher says:
——————————————————————————–
encourage medical professionals and lawyers to volunteer their time and efforts to improve public knowledge and increase the number of Alaska’s citizens with advance directives.
HB 3200
‘(A) IN GENERAL- For purposes of reporting data on quality measures for covered professional services furnished during 2011 and any subsequent year, to the extent that measures are available, the Secretary shall include quality measures on end of life care and advanced care planning that have been adopted or endorsed by a consensus-based organization, if appropriate. Such measures shall measure both the creation of and adherence to orders for life-sustaining treatment.
‘(B) PROPOSED SET OF MEASURES- The Secretary shall publish in the Federal Register proposed quality measures on end of life care and advanced care planning that the Secretary determines are described in subparagraph (A) and would be appropriate for eligible professionals to use to submit data to the Secretary. The Secretary shall provide for a period of public comment on such set of measures before finalizing such proposed measures.’
Are any of you libs honestly going to try to say that this sentence does not spell out the government making life/death decisions?? Honestly, you all need to grow up. i am out reading random news and blogs, and i run across this one. No one on here is actually addressing the issue that Palin may actually have a point and how the politicians could possible reword it to get rid of that loophole. It is nothing but a bunch of highschoolers and college kids who think they are smarter than everyone else doing their best to insult a woman.every post on this article flat out insults her, with only about 5% of them actually having a legit discussion. Grow Up, Hit puberty, get a real job in the real world (not your parents basement) and then see what you think of this BS reform
August 14th, 2009 at 11:26 amadvance directives as I understand them are all about shortening life since they intervene in the medical establishment’s default mode of “keep alive at any cost”
In a way we get to be our own “death panel”
My living will begins with 1st. responders ordering them to not recesitate and is signed by my primary care physician.
I’m really not that anvxious to see the end of this movie.
August 14th, 2009 at 11:34 am(I owe my life to the Canadian system) I am a 71 yrs. old .
Swearing isn’t going to make your point any better. It only reinforces your lack of knowledge on a subject. Do some research folks.
Our insurance premiums are 15 – 20% more because of unfunded Medicare payments for health care even though the government takes in more money than what is disbursed. This has reduced the number of doctors who treat Medicare patients from 90% in the early 90’s to a little over 50% today.
The plan under consideration takes $500 billion out of medicare to pay for the uninsured. The effect of this is enormous. Less doctors will treat Medicare patients – our insurance premumims will go up by a huge amount forcing us into the option being presented. The end result is a single payer system. That’s what this debate is about.
Since all health care systems – across the world – ration and the government will be firmly in control of what gets paid, that’s where the “kill your granny” comes into play. While there isn’t an intent to intentional kill someone, slowing down the process of providing health care – like in Canada – does this. The current system is broken and does need to be fixed. All we’re saying is that there is more than option to fix this and that’s the only option we are presented with.
You can say I’m extreme all you want. I am very upset about this issue – just like you are – and the vast majority of people I talk with feel the same way I do. There isn’t anything for free – someone has to pay for it. I am very disappointed that our representatives had to wait so long to tackle this issue and that both sides have not told the truth. I am even more disappointed that our press won’t piece everything together to give a broad overview of what’s going on.
Based on the majority of posts I read on here, neither are you.
August 14th, 2009 at 11:36 amInstead of scraping the system, here’s a novel idea -
The government could fund 4,000 free clinics, with 5 doctors each making $200,000 a year for a cost of $4 billion a year. Add in another billion for overhead giving each free clinic $250,000 for rent, etc for a total cost of $5 billion/year or $50 over 10 years.
I don’t hear about any easy ideas like this for preventative health care so that people who don’t have insurance have some place to go so that they don’t use the emergency room for routine care.
There is something in the market place though – it’s called Walgreens. It costs $75 for a walk up appointment. We also have free clinics in the US as well. I know because I did a walk up and that’s what it costed me.
So – what we’re talking about is people who don’t have health insurance who don’t want to stand in lines to be taken care of…
Pre-existing conditions DOES need to have additonal legislation.
August 14th, 2009 at 11:59 am72. jayne says: I don’t suppose any of you intelligent commenters noticed the difference between what amounts to Palin making a public service announcement encouraging people to make their wishes known about their end of life care and the government paying doctors to talk to elderly patients when they are vulnerable about end of life treatment options…
So, Jayne, you too are another person who is against health insurance reform. Not only that, you probably don’t have health insurance, or your understanding of how it works is pretty minimal. If, by chance, you have insurance, the typical way anything happens is that you make a visit to your doctor, or, if you happen to be an in-patient somewhere, the doctor visits you. After the visit, the doctor bills the insurance company, including an explanation of what he did during the visit. At that point, the insurance company decides whether what the doctor did is covered. At the moment, if all that happens during the visit is a consultation about living wills and do-not-resuscitate orders, Medicare and some other insurors do not cover that visit. All that the legislation does is allow Medicare to cover that kind of consultation; other insurors can do it any time they want to put it in their policies – but most of them follow whatever lead Medicare establishes.
84. Shemp sez:…
Gee, Shemp, all you’ve done is quote what LabTeacher put on the thread about HB 3200. That doesn’t say shit about ‘life ‘n death’ decisions; it directs the Secretary (of HHS, I assume) to collect quality assurance data on professional services, including end-of-life and advanced care as may be appropriate and to determine the appropriate means of measuring the service (metrics).
You don’t read much, do you, Shemp. Have you taken a reading comprehension test lately? Did you read all of Section 1233 of House Bill 3200 and consider that in relation to the referenced Medicare text? I would strongly recommend that you never ever get a living will or sign off on a health care power of attorney or give your attending physician a do-not-resuscitate order, but I won’t, as there’s no point in burdening your family with your stupidity; you’re probably already doing that yourself anyway.
August 14th, 2009 at 12:20 pmDoes anyone actually believe that Palin is doing this on her own? No, honestly, she’s backing spurious allegations by citing disingenuous minutia? What in her history leads anyone to believe that she even knows how to read a bill?
Someone is obviously pulling the strings. My guess: Bill Krystol.
At this point, Sarah Palin is nothing more than a provocateur. It wouldn’t surprise me if she had a role in deciding which issues best sync up with her reality-challenged t-bagging base, and thus which issues to push. But the actual execution? No. There’s no way in hell this is just her and her “staff” thinking a few things through on her Facebook page.
The MSM needs to drop this charade and peel back the veneer. This is nothing more than astroturfing through other means.
August 14th, 2009 at 12:50 pmVirtual Pebble says:………
Virtual, there is a reason i put a number of words in Bold. They very specifically state that the “secretary” would be put in control of the creation and adherance to order for life-sustaining measures.
Honestly, i am not the one having difficulty reading. as per me other statements, you have done nothing but respond to posts by insulting those who did the post. you had no legitimate argument with what was stated, you just want people to support this health reform, so you do everything you can to utilize derogatory statements against the persons, not the subject matter.. I say again, grow up.
I implore yhou to actually look at the copy/pasted post that has been unedited and orginally posted her by a supporter of the bill. Using their EXACT POST, i simply put a couple words in bold and it points out what people are seeing as death panels. Personally, i do not believe the government is intentionally trying to kill off grannies, but i do believe the wording allows a very large loophole opportunity that needs to be fixed rather than supported blindly
August 14th, 2009 at 12:50 pmThere’s an archive of all the missing Sarah Palin official state documents. Here’s a direct link to the text of the proclamation she issued and signed that PROVES she was FOR it BEFORE she was AGAINST it from way back in April 2008:
http://wayback.archive-it.org/1200/20090726122039/http://www.gov.state.ak.us/print_news.php?id=1094
-Laz
August 14th, 2009 at 1:09 pmhttp://omfgalaska.blogspot.com/
Could this ignorant dinosaur-riding beeyatch be any more hypocritical? Idiot America on the march . . .
August 14th, 2009 at 3:50 pmlazarhat, first you would have to prove that she actually read the proclamation before she signed it, then you would have to prove that she actually understood what she was signing, then you would have prove that . . .
August 14th, 2009 at 3:53 pmHey Shemp–why I oughtta . . . you’re embarrassing Moe and Larry. They want you to got back to the sixth grade for some remedial English.
“For purposes of reporting data on quality measures for covered professional services . . . to the extent that measures are available, the Secretary shall include quality measures on end of life care and advanced care planning that have been adopted or endorsed by a consensus-based organization . . . . Such measures shall measure both the creation of and adherence to orders for life-sustaining treatment.”
They’re talking about coming up with ways to measure the quality of end-of-life treatment and advanced-care planning, so that the data can be collected in a meaningful way.
(sigh) Another child left behind . . .
August 14th, 2009 at 4:16 pmNever seen so many juvenile comments in one place, would you all please move back into your cells, play time is over.
Spewing hate and venom toward a person far more courageous than you are: who ran for office to fix problems, opposing corruption in her own party, living with the disappointments of children that don’t live up to her expectations, but continued to love them. Most of you intellects here are behaving like spoiled children with potty mouths who need a little more life experience and a little less drug induced delusions.
As was pointed out earlier this article twists a concern for elderly into something similar to a committee to “solve the problem of old people costing too much”. If you like to practice disinformation, this seems to be the correct site for you.
Why don’t you all prove me right by yelling some potty mouth vindictive at me. (yea look up the word vindictive first, I might be saying something nice about you)
August 14th, 2009 at 5:23 pm90. shemp sez:…
Shemp, I haven’t spent much time or effort insulting you, nor will I. I have, on the other hand, read the entirety of Section 1233 of HB 3200. In fact, I have an HB 3200 download for easy convenient reference. As I pointed out, the two paragraphs, (A) and (B), which a few of you were knocking around, happen to be the quality control guidance to the Secretary of Health and Human Services. That’s a very small portion of Section 1233, which in it’s entirety deals with the health care professionals provision of information about end of life directives, aka living wills and do-not-resuscitate orders, advanced care directives, and the like.
There is nothing in the Section which sets up panels or committees or any such thing for making end of life decisions.
The Section does provide for reimbursement of health care professionals when they do give information, just as they would be reimbursed for giving you information about diabetes, or heart problems, or high blood pressure, or any other medical issue. End of life consultation from your doctor or nurse practitioner (NP) is NOT currently reimburseable by Medicare, so it comes out of your pocket, unless the doctor or NP weasels it in during some other consultation that is covered.
But don’t worry. Congress has heard you and it won’t be covered. Ever.
August 14th, 2009 at 5:24 pm@ 97 Virtual Pebble
August 14th, 2009 at 5:49 pmYou are correct in your point and I note that congress is now saying they will remove that section. The concern I have is that a bureaucratic panel made of appointed people by the health care department and the President will approve or disapprove standards for acceptable treatment. This panel will decide what medicines and procedures are available for whom. This panel is not answerable to congress, the president or the judicial system (can’t be sued). In the future under budget constraints, that panel could make sweeping decisions including non-treatment, and is totally unanswerable to the people.
If you assume a benign government, you obviously are not a Cherokee who walked the trail of tears, a slave or ex-slave who was impacted by the Dred Scott case or the multitude of other laws that hurt black Americans. You are not a Japanese American who lost home and business due to the government in WW2, or a small businessman squeezed out of work by onerous government requirements meant to limit competition and drive up profits for large companies. Government is not benign, it is for sale to the highest bidder.
This problem could be solved for a lot less money, but why let a crisis go to waste. Question is who will benefit the most from this legislation? The answer is not immediately obvious due to the law of unintended consequences. But there are some brilliant minds working on it behind the scenes, and they are not working for you or me.
It appears at last that I have finally found the most vitriolic website on the net. Do y’all hate everyone who has an opinion that differs from yours?
When a family is faced with an EOL decision, it needs to be with someone who’s been involved with the care of your loved one, like a doctor or nurse, not a bureaucrat who shows up at the last minute and could give a shit less about you and your family. Y’all just don’t get it! If you bothered to read story, you’d see it in the context.
I don’t think you guys need to worry about anyone “signing your balls”…. You don’t have any…..
FO from TX
August 14th, 2009 at 6:18 pmHere’s a rather long link to a Des Moines, Iowa newspaper (the Register) posting with related comments reminding us that the overwhelmingly GOP-supported Medicare preseciption bill of 2003 included…..wait for it…. end=of=life counseling!!!!
Enjoy:
August 14th, 2009 at 6:37 pmhttp://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=PluckPersona&U=4f6971f861e24993a3ec84dd102b3c42&plckPersonaPage=BlogViewPost&plckUserId=4f6971f861e24993a3ec84dd102b3c42&plckPostId=Blog%3a4f6971f861e24993a3ec84dd102b3c42Post%3ab5e60cc4-6289-4143-836e-69413a285e7e&plckController=PersonaBlog&plckScript=personaScript&plckElementId=personaDest
Sorry, that was longer than I realized. If you want another way to read it, go to: desmoinesregister.com, then select “Opinion” from the menu bar, and “Blogs” from the second menu. Wait for the screen and look (on the right side of your screen) for “Oh, THOSE Death Panels” written by Another_Patriot.
Hoot & a half, you betcha!
August 14th, 2009 at 6:40 pmVirtual Pebble
You are exactly the reason why I no longer consider myself a liberal. Your ability to take a civil discussion and turn it into the worst kind of hateful, juvenile, WWE grudge match was so typical of the people I often found myself agreeing with that I began questioning the fundamental assumptions that put me on the same side as such horrible mean-spirited folk. With a little maturity and some self-reflection I found myself evolving much of my political philosophy away from that of the kneejerk liberal. I’m certainly no conservative, but I will never again blindly follow the modern American leftists down their insane nihilist path.
Anywho… you’re technically correct. There are a lot of powers NOT clearly assigned to these “secretaries”, “panels”, “commissars”, whatever. That’s the point. There’s a fair amount of talk about “intent”, but that’s just some legal horsepucky. Think about the purpose of the Bill of Rights. The Founders were well aware that when you don’t limit government, it expands to fill the void around it. If you know a little political science (and are being honest about it…) a fundamental principle is that these newly created arms of government will grow to consume as much money, power, and authority as they possibly can. It isn’t enough to say “Oh, there’s nothing about ‘death panels’ in here” – you have to create the agency explicitly limiting it NOT to create ‘death panels’.
Now, I’m being glib here, please don’t be a blogging-ass and pretend that I actually mean that the words “No Death Panels” have to be in the bill. I mean that this legislation is clearly written to create an “open-ended” authority, whose powers would grow, and grow in what many consider would be ways antithetical to very standard American principles of individual liberty. It is most certainly NOT written in way that clearly-circumscribes the powers of these new government entities.
August 14th, 2009 at 7:16 pmAnd to all you Sarah Palin haters – like the esteemed author Mr. Fang – what won’t help in all this debate is yet another little game of “gotcha” from the fetid gangrenous limb of American society we now call “The Media” but, when healthy, was called “Journalism”.
As many here have already pointed out (as could most competent 8th graders), encouraging private individuals to provide a service is a far cry from giving a government agency powers to force such a service onto its citizens.
To illustrate: As a citizen, there’s nothing wrong with my encouraging you to go spend the morning at your local Temple, because I think a little Sacharit would be good for you. It would be another thing entirely if I put my government-issued firearm to your forehead and forced you to stand before the Rabbi.
If you can’t see the difference between the two, you either need to go back to grade school or lose the Democrat Party-issued blinders. Or, I guess, continue to enjoy your life as livestock.
August 14th, 2009 at 8:29 pm97 & 101. SparkyVA & hunteddown say:…
Sorry to have offended your sensibilities, gents. The discussion on these pages is occasionally dignified and benign and at other times it gets rancid. I ripped Shemp, for instance, for exactly the reasons stated. If you return to comment 84, final paragraph, you’ll find that Shemp indulges in an insultfest and goes out of his way to misunderstand the very portion of HB 3200 Section 1233 that he quotes. If you don’t like my response to Shemp, commisserate with him or don’t annoy me or both. I stand by my remarks to him; he didn’t bother to understand what he was throwing out there and using to blowtorch the rest of us.
SparkyVA, you don’t have to tell me about government sponsored atrocity. I grew up and still live in an area that saw a respectable number of such. We’ve seen a few corporate sponsored screwups too. Ever hear of the Sand Creek Massacre? How about the Ludlow Massacre? Bosque Redondo? How about the St. Joseph “downwinders”? I could go on, but I’m sure you get the point. (Any respectable search engine can get you to more info on the four that I’ve listed. I’m very familiar with those that you listed.)
Hunteddown, sure, I’m aware of Parkinson’s Law and it’s corollaries, particularly as it applies to grubbing up power in bureaucracies and government agency gamesmanship, etc. I’m not a kneejerk anything; I started as a conservative before the neocons were out of diapers and made my own way out – I’m not into isms and have no organized party affiliation, not that the Democrats are to be rightfully accused of organization :). By the way, the “secretaries” mentioned in HR 3200 are the (federal) Secretary of Health & Human Services and the Secretary of Labor; the Secretary of the Treasury might be mentioned in the bill too.
At the core of what you both present lies a truth, but the fact is, while most people are not in favor of putting life and death, or even lesser health care decision powers in the hands of a third party, we don’t really have a choice in the matter. Like it or not, it’s already done; it’s one of those facts on the ground. If you have health insurance, your insurance provider has already decided the extent of coverage that you have, not simply in monetary terms, but in terms of treatment protocols for which your attending physician or other health care specialist will be reimbursed. If your provider is part of a clinic or is associated with a hospital, that institution will have guidelines that the provider crosses at his or her professional peril. We can cite other similar constraints which already determine the kind and type of care any of us receive and which can have enormous effects on the outcome of that care.
Part of that constraint is the fact that the government is already involved. The major insurance companies, and probably most of the smaller ones, already tailor all or part of their coverage to Medicare compliance. They all differ in various particulars and details but they’ve put an effort into making the service provision uniform so that the clients, us, the people in the system, make a seamless transition from “private” insurance to “public”, ie, Medicare.
So, like it or not, we’re dealing with a system where decisions have already been made and procedures put in place where we have no input, other than showing up as a warm body. How can that system be improved? Is bellowing at a congressman good for anything other than getting his or her immediate attention? If I bellow something at my congressman, will it make any more impression on him that what the previous person insulted him with or what the next person will yell at him. That process is going to do damnall good, in my opinion; it doesn’t do any more good than Shemp wandering in here and throwing out a misunderstanding or three, followed by a statement of bad attitude.
I am interested in any ideas that anyone has about improving the system, but not much interest in doctrinaire policy ideas without some pragmatic rationale to support them. And never underestimate the power of unintended consequences; it’s never what you expect that bites you.
August 15th, 2009 at 2:18 amShe who does not know and does not know that she does not know is the greatest of fools!
August 15th, 2009 at 4:28 pmVirtual, you surprise me. I thought you were just going to call me a Nazi and walk away. Thanks for an awesome response.
BTW, complete aside, your second paragraph – “lies a truth”. I sure you didn’t intend it, but I think it’s a cool turn of phrase…
To address your last point first, yelling at congress-people is a good thing. It’s called democracy (little “d”). The Left has been doing it for a couple of generations now and, funny, it’s become something of a folk-hero-ey kinda thing in the media when you’re against a war or yelling a Dubya or shouting down a Catholic Priest. When conservatives express their Rage Against the Machine, all of a sudden Maureen Dowd and her Manhattan cocktail circuit are traumatized. Please.
On to your main point, I completely agree with you. In the real world, some -“one” or –“thing” selects/prioritizes/rations all of the things we do in life. Healthcare, food intake, TV watching, toilet paper used, whatever. Nowadays, if you are “stuck” in Medicare, somebody makes choices about what you can and can’t do. If you have another private plan, somebody working for that company makes those choices. Decisions need to get made in order for these systems to function.
But there’s a problem with Obamacare (and the Canadian system, and the British, East German, Soviet, etc.). First, we need to acknowledge that the point of all this is a Single Provider Plan – government-run health care. Private companies are either not players in this or so heavily regulated that they have no independence. Obama has publically stated his goal in the past – a little now and all later. Some are claiming it isn’t so, but we all know that’s crap. If you don’t want to completely concede the point, fine, but just hold off for now and stay with me.
In today mess of a system, the “rationing” decision is decentralized. There is not one answer to when grandma doesn’t get that last useless procedure. If grandma has enough money, they can turn her into Jamie Summers with saggy boobs before she dies (and actually they can fix those too…). The point is the power for those decisions are not in the hands of some faceless bureaucrat – they’re in the hands of a VARIETY of COMPETING decentralized faceless bureaucrats, and many faced bureaucrats, some other people trying to make a buck, some others actually working hard to do what’s right… and you too, if you got the Benjamins to make you’re own decisions.
Now, is a combo of bank account balance and dumb luck a “fair” way to determine who gets the best health care and who doesn’t. Nope. That would fall under the “Life ain’t always fair” clause. Gosh, can I think of a worse way to make those kinds of decisions. Oh yes I can – make them EXCLUSIVELY government appointee decisions. By doing so you guarantee that the decisions will be made according to incompetence, corruption, and cronee-ism. Who gets the best health care will be determined by who the current authority thinks is the most deserving. That’s not just unfair, that’s practically the definition of tyrannical.
Thanks, but I’ll take my chances with the free market.
August 15th, 2009 at 9:20 pm105. hunteddown sez:…
We don’t have a free market in a number of economic and business functions, and certainly not in health insurance. Just staying with what we have now is an option, but it isn’t a free market.
An example; I noted that most insurance companies align their plans with Medicare; it makes for a smoother transition to Medicare. That transition isn’t something voluntary; it happens automatically when a person reaches their age of full eligibility for Social Security. People aren’t “stuck” in Medicare, they’re pushed there by their insurance companies whether they want to go or not.
For the insurance companies, it’s an actuarially sound proposition; somewhere around age 65, on average, the health care costs for people start going up really rapidly. Most employer insurance plans are designed so that at age 65 (and increasing a bit over the next few years to 67 or 68), you get to enroll in Medicare, and your employer based insurance, if you retire, becomes a supplemental policy that may, or may not, pick up what Medicare does not cover. If you do not enroll in Medicare at your age of eligibility, your insurance company will deny all coverage because of that eligibility.
At that point, you can either go with Medicare (and probably pay a time or dollar penalty for late enrollment) or go try to purchase individual coverage; the price you will pay for that latter goes up the longer you wait, simply because of the age related care cost.
So, the market, particularly for the majority of people who are covered, which is through an employer plan, is not free. Individual plans, which are kind of a free market, have the defect that insurance companies run individual health plans not with any consideration for pooling effects, but solely on actuarial statistics, and I might add that insurance companies have absolutely no shame about gouging the customer. There isn’t a lot of competition in individual plans. In fact, since the dominant health care insurance market is in employer based plans, which are keyed to Medicare, there isn’t much competition at all, and as far as any individual is concerned in that market, no competition; you’re stuck with whichever insurance company your employer has selected – unless your employer is like the Federal government, ie, is big enough to offer employees more than one insurance company’s plan.
Can the system be improved? Sure. More competition? Probably. Greater efficiency? Probably. I think that the administration is hoping for a system that is an improvement and which will provide mechanisms for continuous process improvement, and I mean genuine, humane and “market-friendly” improvements, not the cynical “throw gramma under the gurney and spin the wheels” improvement that some people seem to think is under consideration.
You may disagree with that assessment, but I don’t think there’s a conspiracy to make the system worse than it already is. The fact that we pay more per capita for health care in this country and rank somewhere around 37th in terms of general health of the average citizen is an indication of process failure and serious inefficiencies. Further, I take the President at his word when he says that he is not trying to promote a single payer system.
August 15th, 2009 at 11:14 pmVirtual Pebble:
I agree with much of what you say. I even take the President at his word – that is I believe the very firm, declarative statements he’s made in the past regarding single-payer, not the spin the White House is putting on the issue now. Nowadays, I think we’re working under the age-old political theory of “Liar Liar Pants on Fire”. To support this, I would refer you to those bastions of Right-Wing ideology such as the San Francisco Examiner and BarackObama.com…
http://www.barackobama.com/factcheck/2008/01/05/fact_check_obama_consistent_in.php
http://www.sfexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/Obama-still-wont-come-clean-on-single-payer-52980182.html
A little googling comes up with this gem…
“In 2007, U.S. senator and presidential candidate Obama said, “I don’t think we’re going to be able to eliminate employer coverage immediately. There’s going to be potentially some transition process. I can envision a decade out, or 15 years out, or 20 years out.””
Now, do I think Uncle Barry WANTS us all to be happy, healthy and prosperous? Yes, I don’t think he’s trying to ruin us all. But I think he’s trying to get us to what HE thinks is best for us by less than honest means.
Beyond what the Great Communicator is saying vs. what he’s meaning, you’re right that we don’t have a free market system, and that’s part of the problem. The manner of interference of Medicare has made the system WORSE – for the very reasons you’ve said. The government system has not just incentivized private companies to abandon the non-wealthy elderly, it practically forces them to. People are “pushed” into Medicare not because that’s what some evil insurance executive has in his scheme for World Domination (muahahaha…), but because the excessive government interference has created the “unintended consequences” of gaming the system. The market, as you so rightly said, is not free. Duh – problem. The answer is not to destroy it.
Look, I’m not a free market purist. Big Government is best when it’s effectively regulating Big Industry. I don’t trust either one of them (hell, I don’t trust anyone…). Under Bush, it failed at that miserably for all of the common reasons of corruption and cronee-ism. But there’s a big difference between “interfering” with an industry and “regulating” an industry. The medical insurance industry is screwing the consumer because of a not-surprising mix of getting too large, too disconnected, and that f-ed up mix of being “interfered-with” by government while not effectively REGULATED by government.
The answer is not a 60’s slogan of “Tear it All Down, Baby” and, as you put it “…hoping for a system that is an improvement…” I not a fan of a spray-and-pray approach to creating one of the largest and most powerful government infrastructures ever in human history. I expect better from my government. When government, at arms’s length, effective regulates an industry to serve consumers while preserving an open and competitive environment, we all win.
August 16th, 2009 at 11:00 am…
August 16th, 2009 at 11:04 amBTW, I’m not saying that we don’t need a safety net for those who can’t get insurance or have critical problems in their lives. I’m saying government can ensure that without setting up it’s own system. For example, food stamps – we don’t need government-run grocery stores in order to prevent hunger.
108. hunteddown:…
I think that people are all over the place about whether the President is for or against a single payer system; even the President has been all over the map on it. At the moment the White House is saying, “Nope – not on the table.” I suspect that to be the case – at the moment. Are some of the people in the adminstration angling to have a tactical wedge to move toward single payer? Wouldn’t surprise me. Am I worried about it? Not so much. Even if the President and Rahm Emmanuel and everyone in the White House was out pushing for it, Congress wouldn’t give it to him.
Congress is the very reason I say “hoping for a system that is an improvement”; no one knows, neither you nor I nor the public at large, let alone the Congresscritters, what the bill is going to look like when it finishes the entire process, including reconciliation. It may only present a regulatory environment that is not much different from what we already have and some other incremental changes that may be good or bad, but knowing Congress and their tendency to cave to whoever has the money, it’ll be ugly.
I would prefer that we have a more open system with government providing mostly anti-corruption, anti-fraud, and quality assurance regulation; I don’t know that it will happen. I do know that just as the banking and financial interests pushed over the last 30 years for deregulation, got what they wished for, and then inflicted the result on everyone else, the insurance companies, to the degree that regulation interferes with whatever is on their private agenda will go forth and do likewise. And the result will be inflicted on everyone else.
As I apparently didn’t note clearly enough, the insurance companies do NOT push people onto Medicare for politcal reasons. They do it for monetary reasons, for actuarial reasons; actuarial tables, mortality and disease tables that are arranged by age cohort, show increasing mortality and illness with increasing age. It’s culturally dependent, but in our culture and Western Europe, that increase with age accelerates around age 65, plus or minus a few years. Medicare was designed, in part, to cope with exactly that increase; it takes the payout burden off the insurance company and puts it on the taxpaying part of society as a whole. If Medicare had not been created, the really tasteful spectacle of insurance companies dumping people as they crossed the boundary into retirement would still be with us; dumping people and leaving them with absolutely no market recourse. No one wants to insure the elderly, least of all the insurance companies – well, there are some operators and schemers that run insurance frauds that will take their money and deliver no coverage, but that’s not exactly what people have in mind as health insurance, ya know.
August 16th, 2009 at 2:48 pmForget Sarah, she is a cartoon. I hold the president responsible:
http://americaspeaksink.com/2009/08/obamacare-the-worst-sales-pitch-ever/
http://americaspeaksink.com/2009/08/90000-dollars-in-the-freezer/
August 17th, 2009 at 9:55 am