Obama Addresses Veterans — A Constituency That Benefits From A Public Health Insurance Plan
Obama Addresses Veterans — A Constituency That Benefits From A Public Health Insurance Plan
Today, President Obama addressed the Veterans of Foreign Wars in Phoenix, AZ. In his speech, Obama reassured veterans about his health care plan: “One thing that reform won’t change is veterans health care. No one is going to take away your benefits.” Still, many veterans are reportedly wary of health reform. But ironically, one of the key pillars of reform — a public plan — is currently benefiting millions of veterans who rely on the government-provided care of the Veterans Health Administration.
Outside Obama’s speech, conservative groups including Americans for Prosperity were protesting and rallying against greater government involvement in the health care system. But like Medicare recipients who oppose government interference in the health care system, opponents of a public option should be weary of denouncing “government care” in front of veterans who can vouch for the effectiveness of government-run care.
The VA “outpaces other systems in delivering patient care,” consistently delivering higher quality health care more efficiently. A recent study by the RAND corporation found that “VA patients were more likely to receive recommended care” and “received consistently better care across the board, including screening, diagnosis, treatment and follow up”:
The study also concludes that “if other health care providers followed the VA’s lead, it would be a major step toward improving the quality of care across the U.S. health care system.” The public option — a frequent target of critics who argue that government health care would ration care or provide subprime coverage — would push health providers to adopt some of the VA’s delivery system reforms.
A public health insurance option is not a threat to Americans with private health insurance coverage; it’s an important component of the nation’s public-private health infrastructure. In 2008, federal, state and local governments contributed 47 percent of health care spending and if the VA system is any indication, then rather than intruding between the patient and the doctor or rationing care, federal dollars have only improved access and enhanced the delivery of care.
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Facts don’t really matter to the folks protesting health care reform.
August 17th, 2009 at 2:22 pmI thought the address to the Veterans was going to be televised – it’s not anywhere on TV.
August 17th, 2009 at 2:27 pmDamn socialized health care!
Get the gummint out of the V.A.!!!!
August 17th, 2009 at 2:28 pmI’m watching MSNBC this morning and I see another right wing tool saying how we shouldn’t have single payer because the government can’t run an effective program “and” how it will put private insurers out of business.
I wish for once, just one time, even Rachel, would say “if a government run single payer option is so bad, then it couldn’t possibly put the private insurers out of business.”
Just once, I’m so tired of hearing this particular lie. My heads going to explode.
August 17th, 2009 at 2:28 pm” the government can’t run an effective program “and” how it will put private insurers out of business.”
the correct response to this statement is:
according to your ideology the increase in competetion will drive down prices and improve service. are you trying to say the american public doesn’t deserve better quality coverage at a lower cost?
August 17th, 2009 at 2:31 pmAn interesting fact about the VA, taken from personal experience.
A few years ago, before my grandfather died, it was determined that he needed heart surgery. The local VA did not do cardiac surgeries, but because he had VA insurance, he had to go to another VA hospital to get it done. Unfortunately, the closest one that does cardiac surgeries was 7 hours away, while in my hometown we have one of the best cardiac centers in the country. The only convincing that the VA required to allow him to get the surgery there was my grandmother calling and telling them the facts of the situation. No paperwork was necessary other than what the hospital itself filled out for them, there was no redtape, and he was scheduled for his operation within days.
They took did a wonderful job while he was under their care, but unfortunately he passed away some months later. But at least it was peaceful instead of fraught with the stress many are forced to put on their families regarding how to pay for care or fighting with an insurance company.
If only we could all have such a pleasant healthcare experience as what the VA afforded my grandfather.
August 17th, 2009 at 2:33 pmAfter how the last administration worked over the VA i can understand there concerns. I mean you had such a great commander in chief working for you all>>>> NOT!!!!!!!!!!
August 17th, 2009 at 2:33 pm1. blackwidow sez:… That’s an unfortunate truth you speak, blackwidow. They don’t even bother with a coherent opinion for the most part. There’s a lot of irrationality and refusal to listen out there in the opposition.
I suppose there’s some ignorance and refusal on the pro side to, but I haven’t seen much of that on TP – a lot of Whack-a-Troll impatience with diehards but, what else is new?
August 17th, 2009 at 2:33 pmBozo,
I think they’re saying we don’t Deserve insurance At All.
And while I’m at it, what’s with the “no denial for previous condition.” Sounds good, but mandating the insurance co.’s cover someone with a previous condition does nothing about mandating how high the premiums will be.
Let’s see, I have a previous condition, now how much will I have to pay per month for insurance, 5k, 10k? The way it’s being discussed it won’t be the insurers fault if someone (like me) can’t affod the payments.
I wish we could have a little honesty here.
August 17th, 2009 at 2:36 pm2. Marie, if the VFW speech was not televised, there will be more than one source out there for both the written speech and a transcript of ‘as delivered’.
If we have a troll who is pretending not to know such things, whitehouse.gov is as good as any other source for the actual document, and Faux will have the document with a fine schmear of billdoodoo or beckspittle on it for your entertainment later today.
August 17th, 2009 at 2:38 pmsmidget,
My father has had great care at the VA, he had prostate surgery some 12 years ago and is still going strong. They took great care of him.
August 17th, 2009 at 2:38 pmVirtual Pebble
I think the whole thing can be summed up by what someone said on the Bill Maher show Friday.
basically you have one side with facts and figures trying to work with the other side that says “I like turtles”.
August 17th, 2009 at 2:38 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
11. Newman sez:…
Nah, we did it for fun and games, ya know. Of course, I’m different from the other vets on the page; I did it because I just loved a heaping helping of US Navy chickenshit…
August 17th, 2009 at 2:40 pmNewman says:
Didn’t the Vets actually do something to EARN their benifits?
Health care is a basic human right. We all deserve a right to this benefit by being a citizen of this country.
That’s not to say that I don’t think Vets should not get some benefits the rest of us do not. Hell, I think if your are willing to go to war we owe you not only an education, but also a safe place to live the rest of your live no matter what your circumstances happen to be.
August 17th, 2009 at 2:42 pmNewman
So, people who didn’t serve in the military are punished by being allowed to die from preventable and treatable illnesses, according to you?
Wow, what a lovely, caring person you must be.
August 17th, 2009 at 2:42 pmNewman, what would you suggest would be adequate service for civilians to EARN “benifits” (sic)?
August 17th, 2009 at 2:43 pmNewman,
Let’s see, my wife and I adopted a troubled youth, gotten him through grade school, high school and now we’re sending him to college. We’ve taken care of other troubled kids and through alot of commitment got them through school. We help with the local temple and help run a youth camp that teaches every day morals and values to kids (who otherwise may not get these messages at home).
We have never recieved a dime for our efforts and when I have extra money I donate to the local homeless shelter.
I think everyone deserves healthcare. Apparently you don’t, for good reason I guess, you’ve done nothing to EARN those benefits.
August 17th, 2009 at 2:44 pmYes, they are Americans and as Americans we can all expect the possiblility of doing what they have done if called.
August 17th, 2009 at 2:44 pmExcept that the CBO just released their own report on the VA, where they say it’s difficult to compare the VA with other health programs. These points are all pretty much summarized from a mcclatchy article about the CBO report
Firtly, it’s because nearly eighty percent of vets in the VA system have access to alternative health coverage. Often it’s medicare, but for a significant amount it’s private coverage. These patients utilize both the VA and their other coverage, weight cost/distance to hospital/favorite doctor/etc.
Medical care outside the VA isn’t automatically entered in to the VA’s records, leaving much of their patients records incomplete. These gaps in patient records make it much more difficult to measure the VA’s gains on the health impact of their patients.
According to the CBO, the VA’s costs hasn’t been growing any more slowly than Medicare. You have to factor in that the VA has many younger and healthier patients than Medicare. Once you do that, costs have grown at roughly the same rate.
.
August 17th, 2009 at 2:45 pmNewman: “Didn’t the Vets actually do something to EARN their benifits?
What a foreign concept to some.”
Hey Newman, I know quite a few people who paid into their company’s system for years only to see it go out of business and be forced on to COBRA. We actually DID do something to earn our benefits and we’re not getting them. My family of four’s COBRA insurance was just raised to $1750 a month not counting out of pocket.
I guess people like you just don’t have the imagination or the empathy to understand that this can happen to you as well. And, when and if it does, please come back here and complain about it. Then go to one of your right wing sites and complain – see how you get treated. It may be a sobering experience.
August 17th, 2009 at 2:47 pmWhen there is competition, what are they competing for?
Money.
If a public system is guaranteed its income then poor performance will not necessarily mean that it will go out of business. You can still have poor products and services and yet somehow beat the competition. There are a lot of people out there who will accept poor services if they think its free. They’ll go get the free stuff (more aptly the stuff they’ve already been forced to pay for) instead of shelling out even more money for superior service.
This is how you can have an ineffective government program and run private providers out of business.
BUT!!! There are examples of private businesses (even illegal ones) bringing down costs by competing with the government.
August 17th, 2009 at 2:47 pmhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Letter_Mail_Company
Thanks,virtual pebble.
August 17th, 2009 at 2:47 pmI looked to see if anyone was streaming it on line, but no dice there either. I will check other sources later, as you suggest — maybe even C-Span will air it later — although they, too, have become more of a rightwing outlet these days.
Seems like Faux Noos is making lots of money by pandering to the cretins among us, so monkey-see, monkey-do — the other networks will likely try to imitate them, even more — as if they haven’t betrayed the public trust already.
Health care should be seen as a public good, like education or law enforcement, rather than treated as a consumer good.
The society, community and economy all benefit when the populace maintains its health and treats injury and disease promptly and efficiently. For-profit health insurance doesn’t work the way free-market fundamentalists imagine it should. That much has been pretty conclusively demonstrated by our own experiment in that delivery model over the past sixty years while the rest of the industrialized world “went in a different direction”.
August 17th, 2009 at 2:47 pmThe point is that we don’t have to wonder how these things work. We already have a socialized medicine model with the VA and we already have a single-payer model with Medicare. And the people in these programs are overwhelmingly more satisfied with their health care than people in insurance-based programs.
August 17th, 2009 at 2:49 pmThey didn’t do anything for me. At least not anything I asked for. Yet, I paid for it all the same.
August 17th, 2009 at 2:50 pmBones,
First, I’m going to admit I didn’t read your link. But most people who enlist do so for economic reasons – and yes they are patriotic.
So, I don’t see how someone in the military making 24k a year has much access to private health care.
August 17th, 2009 at 2:50 pmWhich is still far more efficient and the keywords “successful outcomes for patients” than private.
You seem to want to dodge the part that talks about the success of the care.
August 17th, 2009 at 2:52 pmJust what have health insurance companies done to ‘earn’ the right to get rich from other people’s pain and suffering? They accepted money from people from people who were ‘earning’ a living so that in case of illness they would have something set aside from their ‘earnings’ to be able to still work.
So why should these same insurance companies post record profits while the people who trustingly gave them money to perform a service are denied benefits, cancelled out and having to face bankruptcy?
Every citizen has ‘earned’ a right to health care by being born in a supposedly civilized country.
August 17th, 2009 at 2:53 pmAlejandro: “You can still have poor products and services and yet somehow beat the competition. There are a lot of people out there who will accept poor services if they think its free. They’ll go get the free stuff (more aptly the stuff they’ve already been forced to pay for) instead of shelling out even more money for superior service.”
Every time they poll people on Medicare, they find that anywhere between 75 and 85% would NEVER return to insurance-based systems. And, as far as the VA is concerned, the numbers at the top of this discussion speak for themselves. Alejandro, maybe you should go back and look at them again – they obviously didn’t sink in.
August 17th, 2009 at 2:53 pmWho cares if the VA system is better than private sector healthcare?
The administration is already signaling it will not fight for even a public INSURANCE OPTION, let alone anything approaching actual delivery of heath services.
Democrats compromising and folding like a tent, screws healthcare reform once again.
(disgusted Obama 08 supporter)
August 17th, 2009 at 2:54 pmIGOR Typo alert:
August 17th, 2009 at 2:55 pm
I think Newman was just pointing out that the concept of having earned benefits was foreign – kind of speaking to the “free health care” crowd that doesn’t understand the tax base for any public health care plan or what the cost was to guys in a VA plan. Maybe. That is, the vets in the VA system aren’t getting ‘free’ care; I’m reasonably sure it wasn’t free. Feel free to correct any misunderstanding I may have of who is saying what here there.
Obviously, anyone who has an employer based health care plan earns his or her benefits (pay attention, slackers and malingerers), and anyone who has an individually paid plan may be paying out of earnings, which is equivalent to earning it.
August 17th, 2009 at 2:55 pmApparently, the “health care is not a right, but a privilege” is the new talking point.
There are a couple idiots on the dispatcher thread from yesterday trying to off that up.
Disgusting swine…
August 17th, 2009 at 2:56 pmRich H,
Generally it’s because many veterans go onto employment in the private and public sector after serving. This affords them employer provided coverage, which I imagine counts for the vast majority of the private sector or HMO coverage 31% of veterans had alongside their VA coverage in the fiscal year 2007.
August 17th, 2009 at 2:56 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
Alejandro
no private company can compete with the us post office or they would be doing it. Wiki that.
August 17th, 2009 at 2:57 pmBones, you raise some points that are important to consider if one wishes to take an in-depth look at the issue.
Things are never as simple as some folks wish they were, yet those same folks recognize that anger is an effective counter-measure to sober policy-making, and anger is much easier to generate using over-simplified talking points, and by turning nuance on its head to generate confusion in the minds of the ill-informed, which by turn leads to anger.
August 17th, 2009 at 2:57 pmGood point, VP. If that was the point, a snark might have been helpful.
August 17th, 2009 at 2:58 pmWHERE IS THE SUPPORT FOR A PUBLIC PLAN FROM THE VA????
WHERE ARE THERE PEOPLE TELLING US HOW THE VETERANS LOVE THERE PUBLIC FUNDED HEALTH CARE????
August 17th, 2009 at 3:00 pmSorry to go OT, but this is too good to pass up:
GMAC Financial Services has “ceased advertising on the Glenn Beck program”
August 17, 2009 11:55 am ET by Eric Boehlert
That’s the word this morning from spokesperson Sue Mallino, who confirmed to Media Matters that the company recently pulled its ads off the Fox News program. Mallino would not comment on whether the move was made in response to Beck’s claim that President Obama is a “racist,” an allegation that sparked a grassroots campaign by ColorofChange.org to get advertisers to stop supporting Beck’s program.
Mallino said only that the company has final say over which programs are “not appropriate” to advertise on, and that GMAC Financial Services will continue to advertise on Fox News. But she reiterated the company “has ceased advertising on the Glenn Beck program.”
August 17th, 2009 at 3:00 pmwiseass, you’re wrong. This is not over. Grow up and learn how American politics works.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:01 pm.
I want to know why Newman thinks he, and the rest of America doesn’t deserve affordable health care.
.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:01 pmAlejandro: ” NinerFan says:
Then the government program will be AWESOME like puppies and rainbows!
And then run the private providers out of business.”
Assuming that were true, what exactly is your problem? It appears that you care more about insurance industry profits than you do about the health care of Americans. Is that true? Are insurance industry profits more important to you than the well-being of the American people?
August 17th, 2009 at 3:01 pmThe study also concludes that “if other health care providers followed the VA’s lead, it would be a major step toward improving the quality of care across the U.S. health care system.”
As a note, VA health Care does not cover all Veterans. It only covers the ones that fit into the right “class”. When the budget fits it allows more in of the higher classes.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:02 pmIt’s illegal to have private local mail delivery, bubba.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:02 pmSorry to go OT, but this is too good to pass up:
GMAC Financial Services has “ceased advertising on the Glenn Beck program”
That’s free choice at work or is it that GM is owned by the government, currently controlled by the very people that he speaks against?
August 17th, 2009 at 3:03 pmI have an idea, let’s counter the “grandma’s going to die” “death panels” “denial of coverage” “some washington bureaucrat will make your life or death decisions” “every five years someone from the government is going to show up at your door and discuss euthanasia” etc…
With
When we pass single payer everyone will “get a new car” “$10,000. in gold coins” “a new home” “grandma gets an all expense paid vacation to europe” etc…
That would be intellectually even.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:03 pm24. ralph the wonderllama sez:…
I think that’s an excellent point, Ralph. I’ve thought for some years, maybe even a few decades, that the General Welfare clause of the Constitution opens the door for a lot of things that the righties think is heresy. Things like a truly functional indigent care system, a public health care insurance system, etc. We all spend a lot of time talking at the walls of the mentally constipated, so maybe we can have a public futility reimbursement system too.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:04 pmFred,
Raising a point for consideration isn’t a dodge. In fact, I’d say it’s the very opposite. Unlike what you did, which is freely misinterpret one section of my post. That, I believe, is a dodge. I was just trying to bring some reality to the idea of that the VA is an easy example for what government health care could or should look like. Is that a bad thing? I like to think we’re allowed to have a debate over the shape of what’s the come without immediate accusation of being against change.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:04 pm.
Q U E S T I O N:
WHY WAS THE VOICE OF SINGLE PAYER SILENCED BEFORE CONGRESS?
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=3845
.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:04 pmA serious question to the public option people. When Social Security was enacted, did the private retirement investment business disappear?
When Medicare was enacted, did the private health insurance business disappear? Are there no private supplemental insurance plans to Medicare?
August 17th, 2009 at 3:05 pmI don’t work in insurance so I don’t care about their profits.
I do care about the choices I have. When there is only one choice AND you are forced to pay for it whether you like it or not, that sucks.
Just an example, because of BS local government, I have ONE choice in internet provider, Comcast. And Comcast sucks donkey balls. But I pay them and they give me crappy service because I want SOME internet service.
Now, if I were charged their fee whether I used it or not, or wanted to pay or not, that would doubly suck.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:07 pmTundra says:
As a note, VA health Care does not cover all Veterans. It only covers the ones that fit into the right “class”. When the budget fits it allows more in of the higher classes.
The VA covers all uninsured service personal>>> you are semi right about one thing,,, thats the biggest problem the VA has is its had been underfunded and the staffs over worked.
You should maybe go serve our country.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:07 pmNinerfan, you effectively dismantle Alejandro’s whine, but it can also be seen as a sad-faced straw man not worthy of attention.
As I read it, Alejandro seeks to discredit those of us who support universal health care by exaggerating our claims to the point of absurdity, so that they are then easier for him to dismiss. It’s a familiar tactic for those who struggle to make more reasonable arguments.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:08 pm40. NOLIES… Why don’t you go bark at the moon or something useful, NoLies? Nobody is suggesting that the a public health insurance system be contructed around the VA system. Newman derailed the thread into a discussion of the VA by asking what may have been a rhetorical question followed by an open ended comment.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:09 pmTundra says:
As a note, VA health Care does not cover all Veterans. It only covers the ones that fit into the right “class”. When the budget fits it allows more in of the higher classes.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
That is irrelevant. The rightwing talking point is that any public option or gov healthcare would necessarily be a nightmare. THIS shows that THIS gov run healhtcare DOES work and provides services that people are satisfied with
August 17th, 2009 at 3:09 pmhuh, I do business through the mail and the internet and I never use the us postal service.
Maybe you should tell someone. They actually deliver it right to my door.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:09 pmWhen there is only one choice AND you are forced to pay for it whether you like it or not, that sucks.
What part of the word ‘option’ is confusing to you?
August 17th, 2009 at 3:10 pmTundra says:
No its that Beck is a MORON on his best day and many reasonable businessess dont want to be associated with him
August 17th, 2009 at 3:10 pmUmm… a public option will EXPAND your choice. But I guess that’s not the kind of “choice” you’re after, huh?
You do understand that a situation like you describe may be a consequence of topography or rural isolation, but is more likely an arrangement between a compliant local government and the business interest it serves, right?
Kind of like our current health insurance situation — a compliant national government seeking to protect the interests of its largest donor industry.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:12 pmTundra
I wouldn’t read too much conspiracy into it. A dozen or so major advertisers have pulled their ads from Glenn Beck’s show within the past week. Why would anyone be surprised that even more are retreating rapidly.
Also, it is not the government that Beck is speaking against, but rather sanity and reality, neither of which are firmly within his grasp.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:12 pmThe general welfare clause opens the door to Article 1 Section 8 (The powers of Congress).
If it isn’t in that section, Congress can’t do it (legally).
They do anything they please, of course, but, just sayin’
August 17th, 2009 at 3:12 pmThe VA covers all uninsured service personal>>> you are semi right about one thing,,,
False, you get classified based on several items including income. You also get classified based on how many veterans are in your area. It’s all at the VA site.
thats the biggest problem the VA has is its had been underfunded and the staffs over worked.
That we will agree on. But should they be required to fix that before we hand them our children?
You should maybe go serve our country.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:14 pmI did and am classified as a 8. Personal in groups 7 and 8 are not currently eligible right now.
I wouldn’t read too much conspiracy into it.
I don’t, it’s just fun to throw the old tinfoil hat on occassionally heh.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:15 pmBones, no one says they are the same but they are similar in the way costs can be kept down and good treatment delivered.
All you try to do is say they are different in every way. They are actually very similar.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:16 pmAlejandro says:
Yes article 1 section 8 dummy which states DIRECTLY that Congress can levy taxes to provide for the common wellfare.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:16 pmIt’s illegal to have private local mail delivery
How does one classify courier services if not as “private local mail delivery”?
And what about these people, and the numerous others just like them that appear when one types “mail delivery services” into google?
http://www.maildeliveryserviceco.com/
Just curious.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:17 pmZooey says:
Apparently, the “health care is not a right, but a privilege” is the new talking point.
Hey, when Jefferson wrote that all men have the right to “Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness”, he just meant that abortion should be illegal. Yeah, that’s the ticket.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:17 pmMy guess is that it is because it sounds so similar to “extortion” which is Alejandro’s concept of taxation.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:19 pmAnd you look very fetching in it.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:20 pmI won’t be able to choose whether I subsidize it or not.
If the doomsday scenario plays out and all the evil insurance companies start dropping like flies (they’ll really just consolidate) then won’t my choices be diminished that way too?
But they’re woefully diminished now. The whole employer based insurance scheme is one of the things keeping costs high and choices low. Also, all the restrictions on whose insurance you or I could buy. For instance the limitations of buying a policy from a provider in another state. All these things diminish choice.
I’m in Washington DC. I live very near the Capitol. I’m waiting with baited breath as Verizon expands their Fios network where I live.
But Wow. Are you starting to get it? Government and business working together screws everyone else? Whodathunkit?
Exactly. That’s what your public option would have been. Don’t worry that thing was going to be riddled with so much corporate welfare, it would make Medicare Part D look like kindergarten.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:22 pmNo, that’s not what the section says. It says they can lay and collect taxes yes. Then it says what they specifically can do with those taxes to provide for the general welfare. Healthcare ain’t there. Education, not there. After work programs for abused wives, not there.
The federal government wasn’t meant to any of this. This is for the states.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:25 pmYou mean like the post office who you said had made private delivery illegal? That kind of no choice?
You’re batting 1000 for failure today.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:26 pmAlejandro: “I won’t be able to choose whether I subsidize it or not.”
What a steaming pile of nonsense. Do you get to do that now with anything? Can you choose not to subsidize the war in Afganistan? You keep sputtering absurd and irrelevant posts about the Constitution – tell us, Mr. Constitution, where does it say that you get to choose how tax money is distributed?
August 17th, 2009 at 3:26 pmAlejandro: “For instance the limitations of buying a policy from a provider in another state. All these things diminish choice.”
This is one of the silliest right-wing talking points. If people have problems being dropped or excluded from coverage using insurance operations in their own states, imagine the problems you would encounter dealing with an insurance company in another state. The other state may have a completely different set of rules – and you, as someone who is in your own state, are out of luck.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:30 pmNinerfan,
I don’t worship the constitution. Personally, I think it sucks as a legal document. Others brought up the GW clause and I was pointing out that it has nothing to do with the powers of Congress.
But you’re right. I had no choice in whether I subsidize war and torture. If I had the choice, I wouldn’t pay.
Well, I guess I can choose to stop paying the income tax, but then eventually they will come for me and put me in a cell (after they’ve taken everything from me).
Wonderful way to fund things, eh?
August 17th, 2009 at 3:30 pmAlejandro
I’m going to ask you a question no one seems to be willing to answer:
If the Founding Fathers were so perfect in their creation of this country, and they had such a firm and rigid idea of what it should be, why did they leave the Constitution amendable?
August 17th, 2009 at 3:31 pmYeah, see that’s the kind of “choice” I figgered you were after.
Yes. You have a point.
Of course, it rests on a “doomsday scenario” coming true, so I don’t know how much logical weight we can really place on it. Is that really the reasonable standard you want to use when deciding which policy to pursue? Which “doomsday scenario” is the one you like best?
Go fu(k yourself, Alejandro. If you had any clue about your surroundings, you’d recognize that virtually everyone here who supports universal coverage knows about and condemns the tight alignment of corporate interests and government, especially on this issue. You, for some reason, seem to line up with those corporate interests in your bizarre anti-government fantasies.
You obviously have no clue what a “:public option” is all about, if you think that it is “a compliant national government seeking to protect the interests of its largest donor industry”. You’re just out of your tree. But ask yourself this: why has the industry launched an all-out astro-turf and media blitz to spike the public option, if it would have been, as you claim, exactly what I described?
August 17th, 2009 at 3:32 pmAlejandro: “Don’t worry that thing was going to be riddled with so much corporate welfare, it would make Medicare Part D look like kindergarten.”
More nonsense. Medicare is a single-payer system – it has nothing to do with corporate welfare. Medicare Part D is the product of a Repub congress giving subsidies to the insurance industry. Obama wants that eliminated because it’s wasteful to pour all that money into the insurance industry when it could be used for actual health care.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:32 pmAlejandro: “I won’t be able to choose whether I subsidize it or not.”
Try again. The public option would mean people get to send their insurance dollars to a public plan, by choice. Now if that plan suddenly blossoms to a base of 200 million, that means some pretty decent insurance rates.
If you choose to continue a private plan, you can do that. If it gets too expensive, you get to choose whether you want to keep feeding the tick that is profit over your health or joining a nonprofit public plan.
That is assuming a decent public plan is ever offered.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:33 pmsmidget,
They weren’t perfect. Like I said, the constitution blows.
Some people hold up a little copy of the constitution and say “This is the law that protects my freedom.”
And then they point to a ream of paper on a desk and say “This law will take away my freedom.”
Well, let’s get one thing straight. The constitution doesn’t apply to you. It’s the law that applies to the government. Notice that it’s light, vague, and full of loopholes. That law on the desk applies to you. That’s why it’s 2000 pages and inscrutable.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:33 pmAt first that’s what I thought too. I thought, o well, that’s not so bad if it’s funded entirely through premiums. But it’s not. It’s subsidized.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:35 pmAlejandro says:
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EugeneDebs says:
Alejandro says:
Yes article 1 section 8 dummy which states DIRECTLY that Congress can levy taxes to provide for the common wellfare.
No, that’s not what the section says. It says they can lay and collect taxes yes
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I LOVE the way wingnuts like to cite the constitution when they DONT know what is says OR understand it
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.articlei.html
Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States
Now that is pretty clear. It goes on to list several specific things NO WHERE SAYING it is exclusive TO those things and including
To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.
Which brings us back to promoting the general wellfare. By your really dumb interpretation. Highways, Rural electrification, the internet and public education would all be unconstitutional. Since that is baldly ludicrous so is your argument. Whre does it mention National parks? Going to the moon? Were all these things unconstitutional? Of COURSE they werent. Give it up this argument isnt just a loser it is blatantly absurd
August 17th, 2009 at 3:36 pmAlejandro: “Wonderful way to fund things, eh?”
How would you suggest that our government raise the money it needs to function? Charity?
The modern conservative movement clearly thinks it’s better to borrow money from wealthy people through Treasury bonds than it is to simply tax those wealthy people. Using that model, we have gone from the world’s largest creditor nation in 1980 to the world’s largest debtor nation today.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:37 pmAlejandro: “They weren’t perfect. Like I said, the constitution blows.”
This is what right-wing “patriots” think these days. Some of them also admire the Nazis. How about this Mr. Patriotic American: can you point me to a better document than our constitution which sets the framework for a society? If our constitution “blows,” I’m sure you can offer up a better example. Let’s have it.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:39 pmCan we all agree that Alejandro has nothing to offer this discussion and move on?
August 17th, 2009 at 3:40 pmthe us post office is subsidized too. At the same time you may “choose” to use ups or fedex, etc.
you gain choice not lose it. Of course you know that but you have run into a wall now trying to make it look like you will not have a choice. What will you do.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:42 pmYou are only getting one side of this story. Whenever you see this huge battle play out in the media, it’s usually one gang of corporations battling another gang of corporations for regulatory control of a market. Take net neutrality. That’s was Google/Amazon and friends versus ATT/Comcast and friends. Poor us, the everyday dopes were getting caught up in it because it effect us.
If they want to change health care they need to either just open up the market and make it a laizzez-faire system or go all the way the other way and make it universal government run system. But what you and I will get is some frankenstein law that benefits large corporations first and likely increases costs for most people. That’s what always happens in Washington.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:45 pmAlejandro says
Others brought up the GW clause and I was pointing out that it has nothing to do with the powers of Congress.
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It is blatantly stupid and utterly absurd to make this statement when Article 1 section 8 which DEFINES the powers of Congress says DIRECTLY AND I QUOTE
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States;
August 17th, 2009 at 3:47 pmEugeneDebs,
Ah yes, the necessary and proper clause. Another abused part of the constitution.
Skip over that foregoing powers part? See that? The “foregoing powers” and “all powers vested” are the ones explicitly listed in Article I, Section 8.
Give it up. You’re very wrong about this.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:49 pmI am very much aware of what the Constitution applies to. The Articles which dictate the structure and duties of the federal government apply directly to the government, but they also indirectly apply to every citizen of the country, as it outlines basic rights afforded to the citizenry and provides methods for the citizenry to change or alter their government as they see fit. I am, frankly, stunned that someone would deny this basic fact.
However, the ultimate point is that when people start waving the Constitution around, stating things like “that isn’t what it says in this section” or “this isn’t what the founders wanted” they never can explain why the founders were so willing to allow their document to be changed as time wore on, knowing that it could become very different than what they intended.
The basic premise that you are missing is the actual foundation of our country, and it’s not the Constitution, which is an interesting, if not particularly brilliant piece of legislation. The foundation of our country is that the citizenry controls the government, not the other way around. We are the ones with the power to change the Constitution, and we have accepted that things like Education, roads, and, yes, healthcare are things that directly benefit the general welfare and are, therefore, under the jurisdiction of the federal government. To make the claim that Constitution doesn’t specifically outline these particular items does little more than show extreme disrespect for what the founders ACTUALLY intended, which was not a strict adherence to their special document, but rather the right of men to control their own government.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:49 pmVirtual Pebble says:
——————————————————————————–40. NOLIES… Why don’t you go bark at the moon or something useful, NoLies? Nobody is suggesting that the a public health insurance system be contructed around the VA system. Newman derailed the thread into a discussion of the VA by asking what may have been a rhetorical question followed by an open ended comment
I am asking the question, why doesn’t any one on Medicare or Va speak up as to the quality of their care?????
If the repugs gloat how bad socialized medicine is…speak up about the lies with proven track records of Medicare and VA.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:49 pmAlejandro says:
It would be better to go to a complete single payer system. That doesnt mean a public option wouldnt be better than what we have now. IF it is written correctly and isnt a corporate giveaway. 18,000 people per year DIE from lack of access to healthcare and a half a million or so bankrupcies a year are healthcare related. A public option is the first step to ending those two MONUMENTAL problems
August 17th, 2009 at 3:50 pmIn fact, Eugene, the inability of the central government to collect taxes under the Articles of Confederation was a prime moving force behind the Constitutional Convention of 1787.
The federal government was simply too weak to accomplish anything meaningful.
This apparently conforms to Alejandro’s vision for America.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:51 pmDerp. But I still pay for it. Don’t have a choice about that, huh, bubba?
August 17th, 2009 at 3:53 pmIt’s true. I would like the federal government to be much weaker than it is today.
And what, we can only pick from the constitution or the articles of confederation?
August 17th, 2009 at 3:56 pmAlejandro says:
No I am not. You are either being obtuse or are exceedingly stubborn. Are you saying they said Congress can levy taxes to provide the general wellfare for NO REASON? Are you saying that ISNT one of the powers they are talking about? Are you saying Public education, Rural electrification, Highways, the internet, subsidizing business, small business loans, National Parks all those are unconstitutional? Have you lost your MIND? WHERE does it say for THESE AND ONLY THESE PURPOSES can money be spent? Where does its say by the way IGNORE the part about providing for the general wellfare and
make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.
Where does it say forget all that because our libertarian nutbags dont LIKE that part? See I have my copy of the Constitution right here and I dont see where it says to forget those things. YOU say it is abuse because YOU DONT LIKE IT. TOUGH. Suck it up. IT says what is says and YOU dont get to interpret it to mean except when YOU dont LIKE what it says
August 17th, 2009 at 3:57 pmralph the wonder llama says:
Exactly so and apparantly it does.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:58 pmIf you don’t want to be an American why are you here?
August 17th, 2009 at 3:59 pmAlejandro says:
Derp. But I still pay for it. Don’t have a choice about that, huh, bubba?
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What? Did you think you deserved a VETO power on what American citizens can have based on what YOU want to pay for? Are you kidding?
August 17th, 2009 at 4:01 pmSeriously Alejandro, if you don’t want to participate, why don’t you leave.
It’s a democracy and you have as much say as I do. We are all satisfied to work within the system, flawed as it might be.
You seem to want to dictate to us from out of the bounds of what we have all collectively agreed to.
Who are you?
August 17th, 2009 at 4:02 pmDerp. But I still pay for it. Don’t have a choice about that, huh, bubba?
Sure you do. You have the choice to move to another country that fits your ideals better. I’m not saying “America – love it or leave it” because that’s just stupid. But I am saying that you DO have a choice, even if it’s one that’s not particularly palatable to you.
August 17th, 2009 at 4:03 pmAnd what, we can only pick from the constitution or the articles of confederation?
Neither has much influence these days. It is the Articles of Incorporation that hold sway.
August 17th, 2009 at 4:05 pmWe build federal highways and you don’t have a choice in that either, want to whine about that?
August 17th, 2009 at 4:12 pmPresident Obama:
We will not have any change if YOU cave on public option. If co opts work we would have one now.
Thim Hartmann is under the impression that maybe Obama is merely stirring up outrage so the voices will be heard in support of public option and the true motive is to pass a public option.
I am finding this all unbelievable and am having a hard time listening to Obama and his speeches.
August 17th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
had enough, what makes you think this is over? Listening to faux?
This will be resolved by reconciliation in Sept. Wait and see.
August 17th, 2009 at 4:20 pmTundra says:
Cerebus Capital is the largest shareholder in GMAC.
August 17th, 2009 at 4:45 pmBetter correct the talking points or people may suspect that you are evolving into a CONCERN TROLL
Fred says:
had enough, what makes you think this is over? Listening to faux?
This will be resolved by reconciliation in Sept. Wait and see.
I canceled cable long ago as I do not trust corporate run MSM.
While listening to the following shows found on AM radio:
* The Bill Press Show 3am to 6am pacific
* The morning show on KPOJ 6am to 9 am
* Thom Hartmann 9am to 12 noon
* Ed Shultz 12 noon to listening right now, delayed replay
I have come to the conclusion after listening to almost 12 hours of progressive radio… all views were, with the exception of Thom Hartmann, part of him holding out some hope this is a strategic play by Obama and not a real cave, the view Obama has caved.
Randi Rhodeds is up next… we will see what she has to say.
For today, I an glued to the radio in outrage over this possible cave in by Obama not wanting to believe what I am hearing.
August 17th, 2009 at 5:03 pmEven with a democratic majority in congress, old Obama is getting rather wobbly on the public health care plan. Not too surprising. Obama has always come off as a Caspar Milquetoast in by book.
August 17th, 2009 at 5:18 pmkwsventures says:
You are just an ignorant piece of garbage. What is it about being a stupid punkass troll that appeals to you?
August 17th, 2009 at 5:47 pmkwsventures says:
I wonder if the two principle owners of KWS Ventures Inc. know that a semi-literate troll is using their corporate identity as a nickname?
August 17th, 2009 at 5:57 pmDo you think it would be worth my time sending them emails?
Alejandro said:
Just an example, because of BS local government, I have ONE choice in internet provider, Comcast. And Comcast sucks donkey balls. But I pay them and they give me crappy service because I want SOME internet service.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
>>
And people want SOME healthcare, though they might not be able to afford it. They want their children safe and well and you should too because they are going to school with YOUR children.
Now consider this. People with no healthcare insurance go to the ER and get it for their kids. It’s twice (or more) expensive and guess who pays for it via hospital costs, doctor costs and insurance premiums rising? That’s right, you and me. The costs are there, you just don’t seem to realize it. And instead of services being delivered at a 30% less overhead than private/forprofit hmo’s, like with medicare….we are forced to pay for them thru the nose.
Understand?
Also, you do realize the difference between a LUXURY (internet service) and a necessity (healthcare) don’t you? If so, why the phony analogy?
August 17th, 2009 at 5:58 pmBefore anyone gets too far gone on Obama being done in by healthcare reform, let’s remember a wise old adage:
“It ain’t over till it’s over”
Yogi Berra
Then, think about what happened last November….
Then, realize that Obama knows that unless the people RISE UP in support, and call their reps consistently through this process, it will not occur. It’s a government OF, BY AND FOR THE PEOPLE, not just the president, congress or judiciary alone…..
Call em and tell em what you want them to do to REPRESENT you and keep on calling them!
It’s the American way
August 17th, 2009 at 6:02 pmHaving VA care makes me especially appreciative of the fact that I enlisted and finished my term. I showed up without my I.D. once. They threw me some questions to establish my identity, and later someone handed me a new I.D. They just sent someone downstairs to print a new one.
Knowing that I have health care available as soon as I need it, without having to worry about whether or not it’s going to ruin me financially is a blessing. I have a beef with the whole industry of psychiatry and am concerned that they are just giving drugs to returning vets who suffer from PTSD, instead of the intense counseling that is so vital to people who suffer from trauma and the moral issues of war, but I expect to see some improvement as the biologic approach to psychiatry crashes and burns, in general.
August 17th, 2009 at 6:03 pmwiley
Before I decided to be an accountant, I got a degree in Counseling. I had the intention of going to medical school, and was never a huge fan of the counseling profession, though I am a proponent of counseling services, which do not include medications (those must be prescribed, and drug regimens are supervised by a physican, not a counselor). So, with that in mind, and recognizing the potential bias that may be in my post, I would like to respond to your statements re: psychiatry.
In some cases, medication is necessary. Some problems are due to chemical imbalances in the brain, and can only be helped via a biologic remedy. Schizophrenia, for example, or bipolar disorder are both very responsive to medications. That being said, therapy is an essential part of the process, and in many cases, is a stand-alone treatment that does not require drugs. I am slightly shocked at the number of PTSD sufferers that are being given a script and sent home. PTSD is not due to a chemical imbalance, but rather an external impetus, namely the witnessing of an event that is psychologically traumatic, such as war. An antidepressant can help manage the symptoms, but should not be used as the only remedy. My only conclusion is that, to be blunt about it, throwing pills at the problem is the cheaper solution than the years of therapy that can be required to overcome this type of affliction. My personal opinion on the matter is that our veterans deserve better.
August 17th, 2009 at 7:02 pmI agree with all my heart, smidget. Those medications can also cause problems. My ears have been ringing for 17 months after I tapered off Benzodiazapenes. Every time I thought of turning myself in to the flight deck, I listened to the ringing in my ears and remembered the hallucinations I had the first week I quit taking the ‘pam. It has taken a year without any medication at all for my body to sleep well and regularly.
They could at least be more honest about the risks while on the medications, and the fact of protracted withdrawal.
August 17th, 2009 at 7:14 pmGo for it.
August 17th, 2009 at 7:27 pmDebs, you communist troll, you. Find a new word. Troll is getting rather old, child please.
August 17th, 2009 at 7:28 pmkwsventures says:
Look you ignorant punkass troll you ARE a troll. It is that simple should I find a new word for goldfish when I talk about a GOLDFISH? You are a TROLL. You DEFINE TROLL. You a very STUPID troll. Its that simple. GEt over it
August 17th, 2009 at 7:37 pmMaybe we should name them Odomites, in honor of Eric Odom of the Tea Party Movement.
It would be fitting, and Odom can’t deny that his blogs were run by several of the trolls that plague Think Progress.
In fact Mr. Odom even posted the first two threads at the EPIC FAILURE called Think Progress Watch.
Mr. Odom is also behind Olbermann Watch and used to list it on his corporate website as being one of his “properties, until he removed it shortly after the Trajan’s disaster last summer.
August 17th, 2009 at 7:47 pmThe study also concludes that “if other health care providers followed the VA’s lead, it would be a major step toward improving the quality of care across the U.S. health care
you all have never spent much time at a V.A. have you, they enjoy making our vets in to ginni pigs, i don’t feel that is right, but maybe you do
August 18th, 2009 at 12:24 amwhat makes you, pray tell me, an authority on the VA, 122?
August 18th, 2009 at 12:32 ami aint you says:
WOW. I admire the way you soldier on despite your obviously crippling stupidity. What is a ginni pig? Nevermind whatever it is clearly it is a lot smarter than you are. Tile grout is smarter than YOU will ever be. Whatver Rush told YOU to think it is obvious that Veterens are more satisfied with their care than the general public is with theirs overall. YOu never spent much time THINKING did you? I guess you shortbus morons dont even know what that is do you?
August 18th, 2009 at 1:00 amI’m diabetic, and no company will sell me insurance. I have a business with two employees. We contacted every insurer we could find, and, not one would quote us for a company package. A public option is the only way I can ever provide health care to my workers.
Tundra says:
As a note, VA health Care does not cover all Veterans. It only covers the ones that fit into the right “class”.
I didn’t experience this at all.
I recently applied for VA coverage. There was never a question about whether I would be covered. The only questions asked were “Can you prove you served?”, “How much do you earn?” (for a very reasonable co-pay), and “How can we help you?”
i aint you says:
you all have never spent much time at a V.A. have you, they enjoy making our vets in to ginni pigs, i don’t feel that is right, but maybe you do
“you all” are an illiterate Rushlicon tool.
My step-dad is a vet, too. He buys health insurance, but mostly uses the VA medical system. He has his insurer pay the VA because he likes that care better than what the private sector provides.
I worked in several private hospitals while going to college. My company serves the medical device industry, so I sometimes see care at clinical research sites. I visit friends in hospitals.
I have no doubt that the VA staff are the best care-givers in America.
If our health costs (16% of GDP with 70% covered) matched the Canadian system (10% of GDP with 100% covered), that 6% savings in GDP would amount to $800 billion per year. And, we wouldn’t be paying for health insurer “death panels” and “rationed” (denied) care.
The US would save $6.8 trillion over the next ten years, while providing health care to 100% of it’s citizens. It’s a return-on-investment to be proud of.
Lastly: There’s a big TV on the wall in the VA hospital canteen. Last September, I was waiting there when GWB came on the screen to lie about the crash: “This economy is still strong.”. I was surprised when he was booed by the (50-60) vets in the room.
I was proud, again, to be one of them.
August 20th, 2009 at 2:01 amLet me correct the flocks of junior Obama Sodimites on a few things. I can understand how the pillow biting crowd of liberals that have posted here have fallen in behind (pun intended) their President. However you can quote Rand BS statistics till you are blue in the face, the VA is poorly run and poorly managed. Having been inquired several times in combat, I was forced to turn to the Comrade VA to avoid co-pays on the free (irony meant) health care I was to receive for my service. The “care” can be summed up in a pill for everything. There are a bunch of foreign doctors that cannot get jobs in the private sector due to incompetence that get hire by the VA to hand out pain killers. The staff will “coach” you before seeing a doctor in what to tell them to get more drugs or a higher disability rating. They will schedule you for appointments without ever contacting you, and if the mail does not arrive in time for you to get the letter, they will threaten to cut you off from care for missing appointments.
August 21st, 2009 at 3:49 pmI keeping with the finest traditions of government managed care I will leave you with this example. Because of continual pain in my shoulder I was given a chest X-Ray (I still do not understand that on myself). Several days later while driving to California to work on a project as a government Civil Servant I was called by the VA and told I had a mass on my liver that need an immediate ultra-sound. I told the doctor I would schedule it at the local VA there in Loma Linda. After calling the Loma Linda hospital I was told I could not be seen away from my home VA without un-enrolling in Texas and re-enrolling California. Even though they are the VA (Federal Agency) and the doctor felt there was an immediate need, I could not be seen. As a military retiree I called the hospital at Fort Irwin (Army base) and explain the issue and asked for an appointment. Seemed I was also out of my Tri-Care (government run insurance that I pay for to receive my FREE life time health care benefit) coverage area and would have to pay the entire thing. And when I told them I was also a DOD Civil Servant they laughed and said I would only be seen “if you are close to death”. So why would anyone not want your Uncle to have full control of your health care, as long as you never travel more than 20 miles from home and have 5 days a week to set at the hospital faking death it is great.
Also mr-bliss
Hidden Costs
Pierre Lemieux, an economist at The University of Quebec, wrote in the April 23, 2004 issue of the Wall Street Journal, “The Canadian system is built around a compulsory public insurance regime that provides most medical and hospital services free.” Lemieux adds that the system is not, of course, free for the Canadian taxpayer. Twenty-two percent of all taxes raised in Canada are spent on its health care system.
Last August, the New England Journal of Medicine reported health care spending absorbs only 10 percent of the Canadian gross domestic product, compared to 14 percent of U.S. GDP. The Journal credited Canada with being more efficient in the application of administrative costs–but the real difference is explained by the fact that U.S. citizens are permitted to pay privately for health care services, while such spending does not take place in Canada. In Canada, it is illegal to seek or convey private medical assistance.
Canadian health insurance is compulsory, monopolistic, and administered by the various provincial governments under strict control of the federal government. It is illegal for a Canadian citizen to carry private insurance coverage for any health care services covered by the government. Physicians are told by the government how much they can charge for their services; drug prices are set by the government. The supply of medical services in Canada is completely rationed, with no significant private alternative.
The alleged “low cost” of Canadian health care is thus no less a fraud than it was in the Soviet Union. Canadians may not pay the price in dollar terms … but they pay a steep price indeed in terms of care denied or delayed and the poor quality of service provided by unhappy medical practitioners whose incomes do not match their skill and training.
http://www.heartland.org/policybot/results/15034/Canadian_Health_Care_Is_No_Model_for_US.html
Also have you concidered that most Diabetes can be midigated by lossing weight and staying out of the VA hospital canteen.
August 21st, 2009 at 4:08 pm