Kerry: Holder is ‘not pursuing a political agenda’; he’s ‘doing what he believes the law requires him to do.’
Kerry: Holder is ‘not pursuing a political agenda’; he’s ‘doing what he believes the law requires him to do.’
Today on Fox News Sunday, Vice President Cheney attacked Attorney General Eric Holder for opening a “preliminary investigation into whether some CIA operatives broke the law in their coercive interrogations of suspected terrorists.” Cheney called it an “outrageous political act,” “intensely partisan,” and “politicized.” But on ABC’s This Week, Sen. John Kerry (D-MA) pointed out that President Obama has been a bit more reluctant to open an investigation. Holder’s decision to nevertheless move forward is actually a welcome break from the days of Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, who made all his decisions based on political guidance from the White House:
KERRY: I think there is a little bit of a tension between the White House itself and the lawyers in the Justice Department as they see the law and as what their obligation is. In a sense, that’s good. That’s appropriate, because it shows that we have an attorney general who is not pursuing a political agenda, but who is doing what he believes the law requires him to do. And we have an administration, on the other hand, that is balancing some of those other issues.
Watch it:
The only reason Cheney thinks the investigation is partisan is because he disagrees with it. Holder is doing what an attorney general is supposed to do — following the law, not political considerations.
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Funny…
… Many people out there think LAWS should NOT be followed.
Why are they given deference on the air waves as if THEY are cogent?
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August 30th, 2009 at 4:08 pmHolder is doing what an attorney general is supposed to do — following the law, not political considerations.
– - That’s a direct shot at you, Fredo, you dolt.
August 30th, 2009 at 4:10 pmMaybe they shouldn’t have pinned their politics on trying to get away with blatantly criminal acts. It’s not that there’s really any question as to whether the law was broken, or that Holder is looking for evidence that doesn’t exist – most of these blatantly criminal acts are known to have occurred, and the principals have admitted to authorizing them.
August 30th, 2009 at 4:10 pm“but who is doing what he believes the LAW requires him to do.”
Gee….what a refreshing idea! And about damm time.
August 30th, 2009 at 4:16 pmI’m getting the feeling they are timing the investigation so the results happen closer to the next election.
August 30th, 2009 at 4:16 pmAt some point those neo-cons determined that following the law was less important to them than the plots to gain and maintain political power. I have to wonder if the neo-con attitude toward the Obama administration is because of their fear that he will use the levers of Government in the same ruthless manner as did they, attempting to crush their political enemies.
August 30th, 2009 at 4:22 pm.
Funny,
That people actually have to legitimize and justify why violating Common Law, International Law and Geneva Conventions is somehow acceptable.
Funnier still,
That these people aren’t called out for their position the moment they open their mouth.
McCain pushes back against Cheney, says torture violated law
By David Edwards and Daniel Tencer
http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/08/30/mccain-torture-violated-law/
So,
Violating the LAW wasn’t the damaging part, then, Senator?
… But it’s the talking about the laws that were violated that damages image?
Just like how Shieffer didn’t catch McTorture on this inherent contradiction, “It’s the violations of the law that need not be discovered.”
Why won’t media call out the B.S.?
Or do they agree with Johnny McTorture tortured logic that dispells the notion that TORTURE is something to be proud of and NOT prosecuted. I hope he is consistant with this logic as it pertains to his former captors.
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August 30th, 2009 at 4:23 pmThe “best” use of the law is to insulate the Rulers from the insolence of the unruly.
Holder’s just playing 3-D CYA. The Pwog/lib base demands some investigation, though NOBODY in the Regime wants anything to do with it. So Holder’ll do some perfunctory crap, convict a couple of non-entities, and close the books…
Nobody who matters, nobody who issued the orders, nobody who drafter the excuses, will ever face justce.
If anybody ranking higher than MSgt/GS-7 gets jail-time, I’ll eat a phucking hat…
August 30th, 2009 at 4:26 pmgee, wiz, (heh) looks like you struck a nerve…
or everyone else should have 5 more up hits than shown…
eh?
August 30th, 2009 at 4:34 pmI’m glad I disagree with the WH; the political arm (CIA, WH) puts up a fight and justice says they can weep all the hell they want. So divergent views are indicative of restored independence at the justice dept.
August 30th, 2009 at 4:34 pmYou hear on 95% of the air waves owned by hate America righties ongoing defense and distortions of the torture activities the Bush Co were responsible for. My question to these freaks:
Would they want their son or daughter exposed to this torture if they were called by the military to serve?
As these freaks think in only selfish terms maybe this IS the only way to get through to them.
August 30th, 2009 at 4:34 pmkaty says:
gee, wiz, (heh) looks like you struck a nerve…
– - I’m trying to figure out why all the negatives.
August 30th, 2009 at 4:37 pmHouse of Roberts says:
I’m getting the feeling they are timing the investigation so the results happen closer to the next election.
Possibly, but if so, then it’s the right thing to do. People should have this fresh in their minds when they vote. More likely they’re just doing the work building a case before they announce anything, and announce it as soon as the work is done.
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Wiz says:
I have to wonder if the neo-con attitude toward the Obama administration is because of their fear that he will use the levers of Government in the same ruthless manner as did they, attempting to crush their political enemies.
That’s precisely it, and has a lot to do with their ridiculous fantasies of Obama being Hitler and creating secret armies and whatnot. It’s what they wanted to do to everyone else, what with their “unitary executive theory” and “wartime President” claims.
The fact that no such thing is happening isn’t really relevant to their fears. Wingnuts are cowards by definition, and pointing out there aren’t any monsters under their beds just makes them believe in the monsters more.
August 30th, 2009 at 4:38 pmWhy is Wiz’s comment getting the boot? Unless there are trolls in the midst, I think it’s time we put more effort into voting down with care.
August 30th, 2009 at 4:38 pmIt’s time to start talking about the kind of people who defend the Enhanced Interrogation Techniques (EIT) program and its many implementations. I am not trained in psychiatry or human behavior, so I may not use the correct terms.
I think there is something wrong with these people, either physiologically or psychiatrically. No matter how much you tell them that we did was, by international agreement, torture, and that its particular uses constituted War Crimes, and that prior to the use of those EITs, we had agreed that there was never a justification for using torture, after all that, they still want to say, “But it worked, so it was justified.”
IT DID NOT WORK! It never privided useful information, because it was never designed to! The particular techniques in the EITs were all derived from methods used to extract false confessions out of people, to get them to agree to whatever it is you wanted them to agree to. They were never intended to be used to gain useful intelligence because they won’t work for that purpose. And anybody who knows anything about intelligence gathering knows this. The two “alleged psychiatrists” who came up with the EITs didn’t know anything about intelligence work. But that didn’t stop the Bush Administration from claiming the EITs were legal.
And why would they even want to do that in th first place? Why kind of human being (if humanity will forgive the insult) thinks like that? What kind of person believes that the only effective way to get information out of someone is to beat it out of them? Why do they think that works? Don’t they know it doesn’t?
These are very sick, very cruel people. Not just the kind of people who use to blow up frogs for fun (we know who that was), but people who have such a bloodthirst for power that they actually get enjoyment from mistreating other people. And that is not considered “normal behavior” by society. In fact, we usually lock people away who do things like that, because they are a danger to society.
Someone explain to me again why Dick Cheney, a self-admitted war criminal, and a very mentally sick man who is a danger to society, is walking around free?
August 30th, 2009 at 4:40 pmDarth Cheney bellows How DARE anyone presume to pretend the GODS of the Bush administration are subject to the law. Dont people know that the law is for little people and not for those of such stature and importance as they are?
I swear there is no one in the world I would rather see in an orange jumpsuit than Bush and Cheney
August 30th, 2009 at 4:40 pmthank you, john kerry…
and, for saying “teddy would FIGHT for that public option”…
even though it was a different show, and hatch got to drop
his bullshit on Face the Nation…
the dems may not have ONE leader at this time, but we damn sure
August 30th, 2009 at 4:41 pmhave several, and they better be shouting out these days…
I have to wonder if the neo-con attitude toward the Obama administration is because of their fear that he will use the levers of Government in the same ruthless manner as did they, attempting to crush their political enemies.
Oh, I wsh he would. But he won’t because he CAN’T. He’s a Dim, and the Dims don’t have the status to pull off stuff like that.
They’re the ‘inferior’ wing of the party of property, the party of the “others”: negroes, mexicans, injuns, gays, the nobodies, the people with meager and/or no ‘property.’ The Dims only exist to camouflage the fact that they “others” are entirely powerless, are mere pawns of the superior” ones.
The pukes are the White party, and as such can pull off shit that the Dims only dream about. The Pukes are the “superior” wing of the Party. This is why, though Teddy Kennedy’s pleas for justice and equity were widely admired, they weren’t much acted upon. Nobody with any power really wants the folks without power to gain any, becqause they understand that in these politics, power is a zero-sum game: any gain by someone equals a loss by someone else….
August 30th, 2009 at 4:43 pm.
Funny,
That in all the discussion what gets lost are TWO facts:
1) The TORTURE program that was devised from our SERE program is a program that was first devised by Communist China to invoke FALSE confessions. Even IF the USA thought that what they would get was honest and truthful statements, devising a program based on a method use to evoke FALSE confessions and which has shown no proof OF eliciting TRUTHFUL confessions. It is a method devised to elicit information from the captive that the captor wants. Pertinent or not. Truthful or not. False, or otherwise.
2) The Law!
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August 30th, 2009 at 4:45 pmSomeone explain to me again why Dick Cheney, a self-admitted war criminal, and a very mentally sick man who is a danger to society, is walking around free?
August 30th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
Mainly, it’s because he’s a very rich, very pwoerful, very connected, WHITE guy…
August 30th, 2009 at 4:46 pmWayne A. Schneider says:
…after all that, they still want to say, “But it worked, so it was justified.”
IT DID NOT WORK!
And even if it had worked, that still wouldn’t justify it, either legally or morally. You don’t get to “race to the bottom” of evil behavior and still think of yourself as the good guy. These people are simply Al-Qaeda In America, based on their thought and behavior patterns.
The Global War On Terror is not truly being fought between East and West; the GWOT is between Decency and. Evil, and it’s being fought as much on these shores as abroad, on our cable news shows and in the halls of power.
Cheney and his like are on the wrong side of it.
August 30th, 2009 at 4:47 pmElBruce says:
[...] More likely they’re just doing the work building a case before they announce anything, and announce it as soon as the work is done.
i half heard diane feinstein talking about how the dribbles and leaks were hurting the investigation… did she mean hers?
August 30th, 2009 at 4:50 pmi assumed anyway…
she said she wishes to make a complete investigation before
letting out the information… some such…
The troll (trolls?) is/are trying a new trick. They open multiple windows and register under multiple names and then act as “vote bots”. It’s really sad that trolls are so desperate that they need to create avatars to agree with them.
August 30th, 2009 at 4:51 pm.
Nothing like pundits for Al Capone and why the Saint Valentines Day massacre was a good thing…
… YES?
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August 30th, 2009 at 4:52 pmMaybe everyone should go over to Fox Nation and flood their boards with progressive messages?
August 30th, 2009 at 4:52 pmWhen one party believes in the supremacy of the law and the other believes in the supremacy of wealth, then the pursuit of justice is a political act. I’m just not as outraged about it as Cheney is, perhaps because he’s in one party and I’m in the other.
August 30th, 2009 at 4:54 pmWhen the AG does the job right he (she, one day) must ignore the flak. Whether Holder is doing the right thing is less important than whether he is doing what he believes is the right legal thing irrespective of political issues. Easy to say, hard to do, but more likely in a Democratic administration because diversity of views is inherent.
Go get’em AG
August 30th, 2009 at 4:56 pmpete at 4:51 pm,
That’s not a “new” trick, all that is needed is multiple e-mail addresses, one per screenname.
August 30th, 2009 at 4:58 pmO/T comment — I think Teddy came to realize his penchant for deal making was getting the better of him when he agreed to stricter testing standards in NCLB in return for promised funding, and states ended up complaining the funding fell short, beginning with his own state. He compromised with McCain on immigration because McCain was more rational than other right-wingers on that topic.
What right-wingers like Hatch and McCain fail to recall, Ted was in the minority at the time. He had to get what he could to avoid being forced on the sidelines altogether. No more. Right-wingers are not entitled to a deal, they are in the deep minority just as they were from 1962-1981 when Kennedy was elected and had uninterrupted broad influence to better this country.
Kennedy’s bill has the public option and he made no mention of willingness to deal that away.
Finally, right-wingers hate science. How, then, are they worth consulting on the grandest science of them all, health care?
For all of you cowards pulling the strings of a great man who’s no longer in the position to defend himself and reassert his progressive values, SHAME ON YOU!
August 30th, 2009 at 4:59 pmall that is needed is multiple e-mail addresses, one per screenname.
August 30th, 2009 at 5:00 pm—
Well you also need no life and way too much idle time…
Wiz says:
Maybe everyone should go over to Fox Nation and flood their boards with progressive messages?
– - I don’t want to eat their cookies. Bleechhh.
August 30th, 2009 at 5:01 pmHouse of Roberts says:
pete at 4:51 pm,
That’s not a “new” trick, all that is needed is multiple e-mail addresses, one per screenname.
True. I was referring to our own regular troll (trolls?) using it to stack votes as opposed to, at least, expending the energy to troll. It’s not just intellectually dishonest, it’s kinda pathetic.
August 30th, 2009 at 5:03 pm“Cheney thinks the investigation is partisan is because he disagrees with it.”
Dick is simply pissed because:
a) Obama signed Executive Order 13491 which established a Special Task Force on Interrogations and Transfer Policies. Obama revoked Bush’s Executive Order 13440 which Bush ordered limited compliance with the Geneva Conventions in the treatment of captives held in extrajudicial detention by the CIA.
b) The Special Task Force is chaired by Holder. And he has to report his findings to Obama.
c) Obama’s Executive Order lessened CIA the control on interrogation policies. So this would lessen Dick obtaining any info in interrogation policies and national security issues within the CIA.
d) Obama omitted The Military Commissions Act of 2006 in his Executive Order. The Military Commissions Act of 2006 was drafted by Bush in the wake of the Supreme Court’s decision on Hamdan v. Rumsfeld case. The Military Commissions Act stated purpose was “To authorize trial by military commission for violations of the law of war, and for other purposes.”
e) Obama created a new interogation unit. This new unit is made up of experts from several intelligence and law enforcement agencies. And the interrogation unit will be housed at the FBI but will be overseen by the National Security Council and therefore shifts the center of gravity away from the CIA and gives the White House direct oversight.
f) Holder appointing a Special Proesecutor in the torture interrogation probe.
So, for Dick, those days of Fredo, Mukasey, and the Bush Administration’s control over CIA, FBI, DOJ, and other agencies are over.
August 30th, 2009 at 5:03 pmdbadass at 5:00 pm,
I was pretty sure that was a given. ;<)
August 30th, 2009 at 5:05 pmBadmoodman says:
- – I don’t want to eat their cookies. Bleechhh.
Not to mention the fact that any sane comment or call for moderation is censored and the user is banned.
August 30th, 2009 at 5:05 pmPete at 5:03 pm,
Electronic vote tampering? I wonder where they learned that?
August 30th, 2009 at 5:06 pmWe are all watching political theatre play out. Obama knows they got Cheney and Bush by the shorthair. They are going to time it so the first round plays out right around the 2010 elections, and the subsequent trials, will be ready for sentencing around 2012.
Obama is no fool. He knows the Republicans are going to lose big if there are torture trials going on during the 2010 mid-term election. He also knows he will be up for reelection in 2012, so that is when I expect the big hammer to fall, if it ever does. That is when Cheney and Bush should be found guilty, and the world can wait for sentencing while the election plays out.
Even if the Republican’s want to claim it is partisan politics, the world will laugh at them because it is their entire party that will be on trial.
I think Obama knows exactly what he is doing, and we are in for a show as the Republican Party is dismantled once and for all.
August 30th, 2009 at 5:08 pmYou guys are probably right about it being a waste of time to go over to Fox Nation, not to mention the nausea.
August 30th, 2009 at 5:08 pmMaybe everyone should go over to Fox Nation and flood their boards with progressive messages?
It would be like spitting in the ocean. The Stupid is wide and deep over there at FoxNation. I have read some of the BS that gets posted there and it’s pathetic. There is no other group of folks more ignorant, hateful, biased and self-righteous than FoxSnooze viewers.
August 30th, 2009 at 5:11 pmI believe you are referring to the “backfire effect”, tom.
http://gawker.com/5052329/scientists-explain-why-people-vote-for-republicans
August 30th, 2009 at 5:21 pmOT
I am so glad we can start discussing torture again instead of always dealing with healthcare reform. Not that I have anything against healthcare reform, but IMHO, restoring the rule of law to America is much more important.
And now I return you to your regularly scheduled troll bashing.
August 30th, 2009 at 5:21 pmWhat ever happened to that old Republican demand for “law and order?” The Bush regime gave us the most federal government criminality in our history from 1/01 through 1/09. There should be hundreds of concurrent federal investigations going on in the Department of Justice. Let’s see, the theft of the 2000 Presidential Election by a rigged electorate in Florida: Gov. Jeb Bush and Secretary of State Katherine Harris need to be investigated. Cheney and Bush contacts with Ben Laden and al-Queda before 11 September 2001, sleeping-walking on 9-9, 8-10 and 9-11, the unsolved Anthrax attacks, lies about Iraq to Congress, no-bid contracts for Halliburton Corporation, 900 cases of negligent homicide in New Orleans after preventable flooding, the list is almost endless.
August 30th, 2009 at 5:26 pmCheney doesn’t think it’s illegal when he or the republicans are in favor of it. However, if a Democrat even makes a minor mistake on their tax forms, the Republicans are all over it claiming injustice and calling out the lynch mobs.
Nice little double standard they have don’t they?
August 30th, 2009 at 5:32 pmIf Holder wants to screw over the Republican Party, he could go on the ultimate crime enforcement binge. Imagine if he tried to investigate and prosecute any and every crime that is known, committed during the Republican crime family’s tenure. Then further imagine that he prosecutes every other crime his investigations uncover.
The leadership of the Republican Party would be in court from now until hell freezes over, and it would all be legal. Trolls that whine about investigations being partisan better hope they don’t become partisan or they will all end up behind bars. Holder wouldn’t even have to break any laws to do it, just enforce the laws that are on the books, and we would have to let some of the pot smokers go free so there would be room in our prisons for all the Republicans.
August 30th, 2009 at 5:36 pmThe thing is, given as the normal role of various government agencies and positions naturally requires investigating and/or prosecuting this sort of thing, the lack of political pressure to prevent it is really all that’s needed. While Cheney & Co. were in office they could hold justice at bay by stocking the DoJ with loyalty-zombies whose number one job was to protect their masters. But now that D.C. is starting to go back to actually doing their jobs, an accounting for these crimes is simply inevitable. It takes no special effort on Obama’s part whatsoever to make that happen; all he had to do was stop trying to prevent it.
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Peter C says:
When one party believes in the supremacy of the law and the other believes in the supremacy of wealth, then the pursuit of justice is a political act.
That is so quotable. Thanks.
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Oval12345678 aka James K. Sayre says:
What ever happened to that old Republican demand for “law and order?”
They’ve given up the “law and order” thing, along with the “tough on terror” thing, the “we’re good at economics” thing and the “we have moral values” thing. And more. They’ve been so enraptured by the Rovian political method of playing with language that they forgot the first rule of the politics – get on the right “side” of the issue, and get the other guy on the wrong “side.” Now they’ve painted themselves into a horrible little corner.
August 30th, 2009 at 5:41 pmHolder’s decision to nevertheless move forward is actually a welcome break from the days of Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, who made all his decisions based on political guidance from the White House.
***********************************************************
That’s because contrary to what the Bush administration and its supporters want us to believe, being the Attorney General is supposed to mean something more than being a bobbleheaded yes-man who tries to justify anything and everything that the President wants to do. The Attorney General is supposed to act as a legal adviser to the President, who might not have any previous legal training or experience — and this would include warning the President if and when his or her intended course of action would either exceed presidential authority or violate standing laws (whether domestic or international), the same kind of advice that any ethical attorney would give his or her client. It should be obvious, however, that the reason why George W. Bush appointed Alberto Gonzales as his Attorney General was precisely because he knew that Gonzales would never do this (and I might add parenthetically that this is almost certainly part of the reason why Gonzo has been having so much trouble finding a job now that Bush is out of office!)
Throughout his administration, Bush’s behavior demonstrated time and time again that he had no patience or tolerance whatsoever for anyone who dared to challenge or contradict him. Cheney’s doing everything he ca to discredit Holder for one reason and one reason only — because he knows that Holder isn’t a bobblehead like Gonzales was, which means that Cheney can no longer be 100% certain he’ll never be prosecuted over Bush administration policies regarding the treatment of detainees. Cheney’s scared (as he should be) — it’s as simple as that — and if there’s one thing which bullies like Cheney hate with a passion, it’s being scared because they only feel comfortable when other people are scared of them.
August 30th, 2009 at 6:00 pmI’m actually a bit surprised that Holder has done anything so overt. The DOJ is still packed with bushbots and it remains to be seen where their loyalties will lead.
August 30th, 2009 at 6:10 pmBluestocking says:
The Attorney General is supposed to act as a legal adviser to the President, who might not have any previous legal training or experience — and this would include warning the President if and when his or her intended course of action would either exceed presidential authority or violate standing laws (whether domestic or international), the same kind of advice that any ethical attorney would give his or her client.
Not precisely. It’s more important that the AG prosecutes the law than advise the President. He does have other legal advisors for that. The purpose of AG memos are to pre-emptively warn the White House about what they would or would not prosecute regarding a considered course of action. Furthermore, even if the AG warns the White House that they would not find behavior X to be illegal, that doesn’t mean it’s not actually illegal. If just means that that particular AG probably wouldn’t prosecute it.
The “AG is the President’s legal counsel” meme is one that the wingnuts have been pushing in order to set up the meme that the President is not legally responsible for his own decisions, or at least to spread the responsibility around for their crimes in the hopes of evading it.
August 30th, 2009 at 6:18 pmWhile we’re on the topic of traitors and those who would deny the Constitution, try this from FDL:
http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/30/right-wing-extremists-protest-health-care-reform-we-hate-the-united-states/
From Texas: “I hate the United States government. … They’re an evil, corrupt government. They need to go. Sovereignty is not good enough. Secession is what we need!”
“We hate the United States!”
They leave me speechless.
August 30th, 2009 at 6:45 pmElBruce says:
[...] While Cheney & Co. were in office they could hold justice at bay by stocking the DoJ with loyalty-zombies whose number one job was to protect their masters.
now now… darth’s daughter lizzie repeated it many times this morning:
they were “career prosecutors”… c’mon…
http://blogs.abcnews.com/george/2009/08/liz-cheney-and-sam-donaldson-spar-on-cia-probe.html
August 30th, 2009 at 6:50 pmOkay, a little help here, can someone please tell me how an
investigation to determine whether CIA operatives broke the law, is a partisan political act ?
The last time I checked, thw CIA wasn’t affiliated with any
particular party.
Why the hell can’t the bloody msm do it’s DAMN JOB ?!
August 30th, 2009 at 6:51 pmoh my… reading those comments at the link i posted, seems
August 30th, 2009 at 6:57 pmthe “spawn of cheney” is soundly disliked…
Excellent point El Bruce, regarding the AG not being the
president’s counsel, many people make that mistake.
After all, the prez has the dept. of law to look after him. :)
August 30th, 2009 at 7:09 pmI agree katy. I saw maybe 3 or 4 comments that supported Liz Cheney, and the rest were adamantly against her ever appearing on the show again. America is sick of the wingnut propaganda.
August 30th, 2009 at 7:10 pmIt’s nice to have the Senator on board.
There will always be an argument about this being “political”, but it is not political in the sense of being vindictive – or shouldn’t be. As the old saying would have it, “If you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime.” Since torture is illegal for agents and agencies of the US Government and the States, those agents and agencies should not be involved in the activity. Those executives who promoted the activity should be the first ones prosecuted; they set the act in motion.
August 30th, 2009 at 7:11 pmkaty says:
now now… darth’s daughter lizzie repeated it many times this morning: they were “career prosecutors”..
In much the same way that a prostitute can be called a “career girlfriend,” I suppose.
But I think it would be more correct to call them “career non-prosecutors.” As in, you get away with whatever you want as long as you pay me not to prosecute you.
August 30th, 2009 at 7:14 pmI am sad to say it, but this Administration may be the most cynical in my memory. Let us not labor under the delusion that Holder, who has extensive Republican ties, is doing anything based on a commitment to the COTUS or the rule of law. He will do the least that is politically feasible which, given the abysmal state of our corporate media, will be very damn little!
August 30th, 2009 at 7:15 pmThese people were not upset about the Government trampling on their rights when Bush was president. But now they are extremely upset, and I wonder what is so different now that all the hate, tea parties, lies, and secession is bubbled up. Afterall Republican and Democratic congresses and presidents have come and gone, and we are all still here, the country goes on. But now something is very different. We know the difference, all the previous presidents were white guys.
August 30th, 2009 at 7:17 pmYou hear on 95% of the air waves owned by hate America righties ongoing defense and distortions of the torture activities the Bush Co were responsible for. My question to these freaks:
Would they want their son or daughter exposed to this torture if they were called by the military to serve? — Had Enough
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As much as I hate to say it, HE, I’ve listened to enough of the people whom you describe to know that the majority of them don’t have the brains or the ethics or the maturity to accept such a rational and fair-minded argument.
The sort of people whom you describe see absolutely nothing wrong with having a double standard. They’re quite happy to excuse the torture of “evil, savage, heathen furriners” — guilty or not — on the alleged grounds of national security (translation: self-interest and being “right”) despite the fact that the religious beliefs which so many of them claim to espouse utterly forbid it. The vast majority of these people erroneously believe that nationalism is the same thing as patriotism and that whatever the United States does is justifiable because We’re The Good Guys and God Is On Our Side (an argument which should give any intelligent person pause). However, if the government of another country were to subject one of our citizens to the same kind of treatment to which our government has subjected the detainees — no matter what we possibly might done to provoke it — these same people would almost certainly scream bloody murder and demand that we retaliate (preferably with armed force) in order to teach those “evil, savage, heathen furriners” a lesson they’ll never forget.
Most of these people have no concept at all of what life outside the United States is like — many have never traveled to (let alone lived in) other countries, and most know next to nothing about other cultures despite the fact that it’s easier than ever before for those who want to learn to do so. They’re not ignorant — the plain and simple truth is that they’re stupid, because they could educate themselves but choose not to and convince themselves they don’t need to. Whether they realize it consciously or not (most don’t), they can’t bear to face the possibility that they might actually be wrong about something and lose their sense of complacency.
August 30th, 2009 at 7:17 pmCheney is doing a pre-emptive strike at Holder. The AG is merely opening a preliminary investigation which may or may not lead to a full scale investigation. It is possible that Holder will make his findings on the preliminary investigation and then consult Congress before he takes further action. This is because the preliminary investigation may find facts that warrant a special prosecutor to be appointed. Of course, Cheney thinks that by squawking now, the Republicans will jump on the bandwagon. I think it is more likely the Republicans will complain about the investigation but they will certainly not make broad statements supporting Cheney or any other official since they don’t know what is in Pandora’s box. I expect the closer the prosecutors get to Cheney, the louder he will squawk.
August 30th, 2009 at 7:25 pmP.Z. Myers had a line that meshes with your point nicely, Bluestocking.
“You can’t use reason to talk someone out of a position they didn’t use reason to arrive at.”
August 30th, 2009 at 7:25 pmVery true, pags2. I might add that Holder may be testing skills, loyalties, and integrity among his subordinates and among other leftover appointees. If and when they go after the big dogs they will need a bunch of committed patriots who can keep their traps shut.
August 30th, 2009 at 7:33 pmLets combine the two. I bet most fans of 24 don’t know that Keifer Sutherland’s grandfather was T.C Douglas, the first socialist premier in Canadian history.
His biggest achievement was the creation of universal health insurance. It passed in Saskatchewan in 1962, guaranteeing hospital care for all residents. The rest of Canada soon followed, province by province. Douglas earned the title of “The Greatest Canadian” in a 2004 poll by the CBC.
August 30th, 2009 at 7:45 pmDemocracy Now
pags2 says:
Of course, Cheney thinks that by squawking now, the Republicans will jump on the bandwagon. I think it is more likely the Republicans will complain about the investigation but they will certainly not make broad statements supporting Cheney or any other official since they don’t know what is in Pandora’s box.
That and I think they’re getting tired of trying to defend the Bush Admin cronies for all of their crimes and failures. Sure they were willing to stand in lockstep for a while. But current Republican officials have more important things to think about right now besides trying to keep Cheney’s ass out of jail, like how to obstruct Obama and the Democratic Congress. Cheney is at best a distraction, at worst a liability to the GOP.
August 30th, 2009 at 8:04 pmOkay, a little help here, can someone please tell me how an
investigation to determine whether CIA operatives broke the law, is a partisan political act? The last time I checked, the CIA wasn’t affiliated with any particular party.
Why the hell can’t the bloody MSM do it’s DAMN JOB?! — Mathazar
*********************************************************
I agree with you completely — but I think your question must have been rhetorical, since you probably as well as I do what the answer is…
Two words: CORPORATE INTERESTS
It’s estimated that at this point in time, the vast majority of mainstream media news outlets are owned by approximately five parent companies — but it wasn’t always this way. It’s reasonable to expect that these companies will refuse to run stories which reflect poorly on any person or group of people with whom they are currently doing business and/or wish to do business in future. (You don’t have to look all that hard to realize that a sizeable portion of corporate America has been following an unwritten rule of “profit trumps principle” over the last couple of decades.) The first course of action, of course, is to ignore and bury the story as long as possible — but if and when that is no longer possible (as in this case), then you go on the attack by doing everything you can to discredit anyone and everyone who attempts to keep the story in the public eye. I think you know as well as I do that the real story here is not whether CIA operatives broke the law, since it seems clear that they probably did — the real story here is whether someone in the Bush administration (and if so who) ordered or gave them permission/freedom to do so, and whether or not the people in question should be held accountable under the law.
August 30th, 2009 at 8:05 pmThere can only be one reason that Cheney is squealing so loud…he is afraid of what bodies will be uncovered with the investigation. The only reason trolls are defending Cheney is that they are either planted and paid trolls or they are just clueless wingnuts.
August 30th, 2009 at 8:10 pmEight years of the Bush Regime was an outrageous political act. One we will never forget and the same one we hope the members of spend a long time in prison at some point in their lifetime.
August 30th, 2009 at 8:26 pmFor eight years, the Attorney Generals under the Bush Regime covered up the crimes of Bush, Cheney, and others and the conservaNazis who supported them all turned the other cheek and didn’t care. Now we have an Attorney General under President Obama who is doing what the Constitution tells him to do and the conservaNazis squeal with rage!
August 30th, 2009 at 8:30 pmLiz Cheney needs to be waterboarded. She believes that waterboarding is not torture. The only was to convince her is to subject her to waterboarding.
August 30th, 2009 at 8:58 pmPags2 says: Of course, Cheney thinks that by squawking now, the Republicans will jump on the bandwagon. I think it is more likely the Republicans will complain about the investigation but they will certainly not make broad statements supporting Cheney or any other official since they don’t know what is in Pandora’s box.
That and I think they’re getting tired of trying to defend the Bush Admin cronies for all of their crimes and failures. Sure they were willing to stand in lockstep for a while. But current Republican officials have more important things to think about right now besides trying to keep Cheney’s ass out of jail, like how to obstruct Obama and the Democratic Congress. Cheney is at best a distraction, at worst a liability to the GOP. — ElBruce
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A confidential poll which the National Journal recently conducted among Republican Party insiders not too long ago would seem to confirm your theory — 57% of the respondents said that they perceived Cheney’s remarks since leaving office as being detrimental to Republican Party interests, while 33% said that they perceived his remarks as being beneficial. While they’re certainly no fans of Obama, it would appear that the gilt is definitely off the gingerbread for over half of them as far as Cheney is concerned (even though they’d probably never admit it publicly) and that his support has dwindled among all except the most die-hard neoconservatives. The fact that so many of the Republican Congresscritters actively tried to distance themselves from Bush and Cheney during the 2008 election also says a lot — they knew which way the wind was starting to blow, and the could see that Bush and Cheney were becoming an albatross around their necks.
August 30th, 2009 at 9:57 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
Growaspine flagged for off topic spam.
August 30th, 2009 at 10:11 pmjust found this headline on the googlenews page… made me chuckle:
Kennedy loyalists keep pushing health care change as his legacy
MiamiHerald.com – David Lightman – ?3 hours ago?
oh, those darn dems!
August 30th, 2009 at 10:16 pmLevi @37, I hope your predicted scenario come to fruition!
August 30th, 2009 at 10:17 pmI really want to believe it will.
I’ve got steam coming out of my ears right now!
Watching the Bears/Broncos game and
Al Michaels:
AKA Alan Richard Michaels
Born: 12-Nov-1944
Birthplace: Brooklyn, NY
Gender: Male
Religion: Jewish
Race or Ethnicity: White
Sexual orientation: Straight
Occupation: Sports Figure
http://www.nndb.com/people/620/000024548/
Speaks on air, comparing a penalty between the two teams as
“confusing as the elections in Afghanistan”
Hey Al Michaels…..Afghanistan IS NOT A GAME!!!!
“45 the number of U.S. service members killed this month in the Afghan war — one more than the previous monthly record, set in July”
Politics
Michaels has been known for his conservative political positions. On an episode of Dennis Miller Live in 2001 he remarked to host Dennis Miller that the “adults are back in charge” regarding the new Bush administration.
During ABC’s coverage of the NFL season opening game, which pitted the New England Patriots against the Indianapolis Colts, Michaels injected into the football commentary a popular Bush-Cheney ‘04 talking point, alleging that Senator John Kerry (D-MA) “flip-flopped” on the issues.
Following two consecutive turnovers in the September 9 game, which took place in Foxboro, Massachusetts, Michaels and analyst John Madden had the following exchange:
“ MICHAELS: What a wacky series.
MADDEN: This is what you call a flip-flop.
MICHAELS: You’re in the right state for that.
”
Center for Responsive Politics records show that Michaels contributed $2,000 to the Bush-Cheney ‘04 campaign in June 2003.
On January 5, 2008, during the Football Night in America pregame interview as they were preparing to cover the Pittsburgh Steelers/Jacksonville Jaguars game, Michaels was talking with John Madden about the fact that Pittsburgh coach Mike Tomlin had shown a tape of the previous game of the two teams (which Jacksonville won) on a continuous loop as a motivational tool. Michaels said, “Some of those guys would have rather been waterboarded than see that tape again.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Michaels
Spead the word, and make a major issue of the remarks of
Al Michaels!!!!
His Remarks cannot go unchallenged!!!
August 30th, 2009 at 10:20 pmgrowaspine it was a tragic accident, not like the deliberate murder that bush enjoyed being envolved in.
August 30th, 2009 at 10:27 pmby the way I also flagged growaspine.
August 30th, 2009 at 10:27 pmgrowaspine says:
Ted Kennedy murdered Mary Jo Kopechne.
The specific chain of events at Chappaquidick are well documented, and have been public knowledge for centuries. To characterize it as a “murder” is therefore a lie. You lied, knowingly. You are a liar.
August 30th, 2009 at 10:30 pmHey growaspine, if you define “murder” as a tragic accident compounded by poor judgement due to the inability to deal with the immediate crisis, G.W. and D.C. are mass murderers. Oh wait, they may be that no matter how you define “murder”.
August 30th, 2009 at 10:42 pmgrowaspine
Face it, you could care less about Mary Jo Kopechne. You just like throwing around a political football with her name on it – a disrespect the family!
Knock it off.
August 30th, 2009 at 10:53 pmGrowaspine Growabrain.
Making inane accusations of murder is just…stupid.
August 30th, 2009 at 11:07 pmgrowaspine says:
You are a liar and an ignorant worthless piece of filth. Kennedy did not MURDER anyone. Why do punkass morons like y ou lie so much? Just STFU.
August 30th, 2009 at 11:07 pmLaura Bush murdered a high school sweetheart.
See how stupid that sounds?
Its exactly what your doing, now Growaway.
August 30th, 2009 at 11:11 pmCheney and Bush are responsible for so many hundreds of thousands of deaths, and all for nothing more than corporate enrichment.
Those two vile creatures, along with their toadies and enablers, should be facing criminal charges.
Screw the repiggies, and screw the teabagger trash.
August 30th, 2009 at 11:17 pmSince we’re already so OT, please let me say that the sight of the Kennedy family, including the young children, greeting those who came to pay their respects was one of the most gracious things I’ve seen.
August 30th, 2009 at 11:18 pmPolitical systems prior to the American Revolution, may have reformed their authoritarian focuses, alternating between classes of rule violators for surveillance, and quite possibly this could exist only within a closed information environment, where justice was merely considered ‘the lesser(s) of two evils’; America’s bold innovation may have been a political structure which ameliorates social ills through a regulated system of jurisprudence which ‘anti-depreciates’ (social) ideals, such as individual freedoms, liberties, associations, worshipping, etc. and including the freedom of the press, which all together, are clearly enumerated in the Constitution.
August 30th, 2009 at 11:54 pmAlthough all identifiable social groups i.e. age, gender and region, can be said to have one major or defining occupation and outlook, it is also clear that a minority of some groups neither wish to, nor forsee any traditional advancement from within some fixed boundaries, associated with a non-traditional institutional status. It is impossible, and a mistake, IMO, to directly, or singularly involve these individuals in the extremely technical notion of ’social structure’; to the contrary, the formal study of social structure has involved comparisons between central occupations, and peripheral occupational categories, and only those with broader implications for macro-economics. It may be that the concept of ’social structure’ is very limited, as it represents dynamic feature of society that needs constant redefinition, and necessarily, only at the those times when its own societal importance is concurrently associated with a fraction of just one social group, and when this may also be attributable to a related societal depreciation, resulting in ’social short-sightedness’!!
EdgeOnIt, could you go into detail please?
August 31st, 2009 at 12:00 am‘we have an attorney general who is not pursuing a political agenda, but who is doing what he believes the law requires him to do’
If he was doing what the law requires, then Bush and Cheney would have been on trial 5 months ago.
August 31st, 2009 at 12:13 amReally!?
August 31st, 2009 at 12:30 amEdgeOnIt says:
are you kidding me with that post?
classes of rule violators for surveillance,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Exactly what rules were there on surveillance before the American revolution and what are you talking about CLASSES of rules violators?
a regulated system of jurisprudence which ‘anti-depreciates’
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Anti-depriciates?? Really? instead of raised or elevated? Was that post some kind of joke?
August 31st, 2009 at 1:37 amHow does a justice Dept flunky get the authority to write a memo which directly conflicts with our existing laws? I thought congress had the power to write law, not the Justice Debt flunkys.
August 31st, 2009 at 2:33 amElections have consequences. Hopefully two of them are Cheney and Rove in Orange jump suits and shackles!
August 31st, 2009 at 2:46 amOn a side note: Darth Cheney still believes that he is above the law. And I am sure that some in the media will ignores this comment from Dick on Fox News. When asked if he will cooperate with the Special Prosecutor’s torture investigation, Cheney said that he may not cooperate.
Cheney: “It will depend on the circumstances and what I think their activities are really involved in.” “I’ve been very outspoken in my views on this matter. I’ve been very forthright publicly in talking about my involvement in these policies.”
August 31st, 2009 at 4:08 amMaybe Holder will eventually get around to this:
the CIA’s use of the private contractor blackwater as part of its now-abandoned plan to dispatch death squads skirted concerns now re-emerging with recent disclosures about Blackwater’s role.
August 31st, 2009 at 7:52 amHey check out the new legislation coming out of the house that our bought and sold senators are going kill and our puppet president is going to veto.
Rep. Frank and Ron Paul eyes Fed audit, emergency lending curbs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2DX9Iu4wNo
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090830/pl_nm/us_usa_fed_audits;_ylt=AnopcuRicZIZhAV0hbHf9Gwa.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTJvczBpMG9iBGFzc2V0A25tLzIwMDkwODMwL3VzX3VzYV9mZWRfYXVkaXRzBHBvcwMxMQRzZWMDeW5fcGFnaW5hdGVfc3VtbWFyeV9saXN0BHNsawNmdWxsbmJzcHN0b3I-
August 31st, 2009 at 8:45 amThere are thousands of crimes which we already know about that Holder could prosecute virtually every member of the Bush administration for. I wonder how many thousands more we don’t yet know about.
August 31st, 2009 at 8:47 amtheantichrist spammed this across every thread. Please vote him down and flag him for spam.
August 31st, 2009 at 8:51 amEuD…(pls. entertain for one moment, the horrible idea that we kept on, somehow, mixing-and-matching our ideals, and making willy-nilly laws?? (people are not perfect!)? Otherwise, the modern concept of punishment should mean something besides a permanent, ’scarlet letter’! Because we are all merely flawed, the consideration of replacing ex-convicts into communities, can be more sensitive to ‘alleviating’ their older, and no longer appropriate, occupational/economic pressures, and their own social group’s (intertial)constraints!?
August 31st, 2009 at 9:28 amEdgeOnIt, what is your point?
August 31st, 2009 at 9:35 amUh, try and be happy!!
August 31st, 2009 at 9:40 amSee, that wasn’t so hard, was it?
August 31st, 2009 at 9:49 amAll the playing politics that gwb/cheney did while they were in office and all of a sudden cheney gets a conscience? rofl lmao
August 31st, 2009 at 10:42 amAll you are worried about dickie poo is your behind going to jail.
I took the time to look up the definition of war crimes based on the acts of the Bush administration and t he continued support of these actions by Mr. Cheney. As far as I can see, what was done under the direct orders of the Bush administration at Abu Grabe, Guantanamo and other prisons to prisoners of war, is indeed punishable under both US law and under the terms (that we agreed to) of the UN tribunal for War Crimes. In fact, Mr. Holder is acting in response to US law and it is my belief that those responsible in the Bush administration including Mr. Cheney and Mr Bush should be brought before the UN War Crimes Tribunal as war criminals. The use of torture is illegal PERIOD. Those who live by the sword must on occasion eat it.
August 31st, 2009 at 1:19 pmEdgeOnIt says
O…K. I am all for trying to help those who have paid their debt to society reintegrate. Your post however didnt answer my quesions. Try impressing us with your ideas instead of your dense verbiage
August 31st, 2009 at 2:20 pmI’m surprised that Think Progress is supporting falsehoods about the reluctance of Eric Holder of the Justice Department to pursue a more aggressive action on the torture crimes committed by the Bush administration. Having John Kerry backing up the Bush administration: “. . . we have an attorney general who is not pursuing a political agenda, but who is doing what he believes the law requires him to do.” What Holder is holding back in pushing the torture case through IS BECAUSE OF POLITICS. The promises by both Obama and Holder to hold the Bush administration accountable for crimes against humanity started to fall apart soon after Obama became president. It’s back to picking out the “bad apple’ instead of reeling in the big fish who created the torture policies to begin with.
August 31st, 2009 at 6:47 pmAs Armando implied, I’m bothered by Holder’s flip-flop. If not for political expediancy, why has he done this?
August 31st, 2009 at 7:39 pmHe has done it because the law compels him to.
August 31st, 2009 at 10:38 pmElBruce says:
He has done it because the law compels him to.
ElBruce, with all due respect, you don’t know what you’re taking about. What is holding back Holder IS POLITICS. He’s hand picked by Obama, Mr. Flip-Flop. The majority of Obama’s campaign funding came from corporations, not from the voters. Obama is beholding to them, the big corporate money. The corporations, in this case, such as the military/industrial complex, want the whole torture issue buried. And we know the reason why! They put the squeeze on Obama and then Obama put the squeeze on Eric Holder in return. But the cat is out of the bag and Holder is forced, as Attorney General, to pursue the case, one way or another. So he, instead of taking on the big boys of torture, he playing with the “bad apples” instead. Holder hopes this will work and hope no one with notice his punking out act with justice, like his boss, President Obama.
September 1st, 2009 at 3:40 amp.s. 1)social structure is primarily an economic concept, it is mis-taught to sociology students and leads them astray, as it pertains to the formal collection of social data. 2) social structure actually refers to a significant fraction of all groups, who ’stop short’ of the full-fledged desire to transcend their social group along a standard career path. This may be why ERA has been proferred and tabled, several times. This may explain the time-lag in persistent social sterotypes behind civilly enabling legislation. This may be partly responsible, as well, for the lack of a uniform understanding in the ‘gay’ community, about matrimony.
September 2nd, 2009 at 3:18 amvery thanks for article!
September 2nd, 2009 at 10:40 amAs far as I am concerned the insurance folks shouldnt even be in the ‘where is our money going to be spent’ debate because this is the people deciding what to do with their money, not ONE industry, that wants your money, should be allowed in negotiation of how the peoples money is spent.
September 4th, 2009 at 12:27 pmIts like pulling into a gas station, and the guy filling the tanks and the guy behind the counter get to decide who gets your money in a three way vote. Two wolves and one sheep.
September 4th, 2009 at 12:31 pmPonder grub:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=global-warming-reverses-arctic-cooling
September 4th, 2009 at 3:39 pm