Tom Coburn Loses ‘Tenther’ Debate With Town Hall Attendee
Tom Coburn Loses ‘Tenther’ Debate With Town Hall Attendee
In a town hall forum conducted late last month in Bentonville, AR, Sen. Tom Coburn (R-OK) admitted that health care rationing occurs in the United States. In a YouTube clip that is being celebrated by conservative bloggers, Coburn engages in a debate with a woman who supports a single-payer system.
Coburn argued that instituting a single-payer system would result in “rationing.” The town hall attendee astutely noted, “I feel like health care is rationed now.” Coburn responded, “Well, not near the extent it is in the countries that have single-payer.” In fact, countries with single-payer systems — like Australia and Canada — enjoy higher life-expectancy, lower infant mortality, and better cost efficiency.
Coburn quickly pivoted to a “tenther” argument, asking the woman: “Where do you find the authority in the U.S. Constitution for the federal government” to run a single-payer health care system? The crowd exploded with applause. Undeterred, the woman town hall participant quickly stumped Coburn:
TOWN HALL PARTICIPANT: Let me ask you a question about the Constitution. I’m not an expert on the Constitution, but we already have Social Security, we already have Medicare –
COBURN: And both of them are bankrupt. So you want to create another bankrupt program?
TOWN HALL PARTICIPANT: You know, we have to take care of people. [Crowd yells "no!"]
Coburn never responded to the woman’s constitutional argument. Watch it:
The town hall attendee who challenged Coburn was exactly right. Under the Oklahoma senator’s understanding of the Constitution, Medicare and Social Security would cease to exist. As Ian Millhiser writes, “[T]here is something fundamentally authoritarian about the tenther constitution. Social Security, Medicare, and health-care reform are all wildly popular, yet the tenther constitution would shackle our democracy and forbid Congress from enacting the same policies that the American people elected them to advance.”
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Coburn seems to lean towards dropping Social Security and Medicare. If that were to happen, more than a million grannies and pappies(I’m not sure how the pappies got left out of the argument)would be dead in a few weeks. Lack of Medicare coverage for diabetes alone would probably account for an easy million dead. Coburn and his ilk are the real Hitlers in this health care debate.
September 7th, 2009 at 11:11 amCoburn’s got the condescending tone down pat.
Let me remind “Dr” Coburn about something: The Hippocratic Oath
He makes me want to puke.
September 7th, 2009 at 11:13 amFUD – Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt is a tactic of rhetoric and fallacy used in sales, marketing, public relations, politics and propaganda. FUD is generally a strategic attempt to influence public perception by disseminating negative information designed to undermine the credibility of their beliefs. An individual firm, for example, might use FUD to invite unfavorable opinions and speculation about a competitor’s product; to increase the general estimation of switching costs among current customers; or to maintain leverage over a current business partner who could potentially become a rival.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt
September 7th, 2009 at 11:14 amRepublicans want to kill old people by pulling the plug on Social Security and Medicare.
September 7th, 2009 at 11:15 amHere’s a question for Dr. Coburn: I know that you are not a constitutional scholar, but, the constitution does allow the “promotion of the General Welfare” of the American People. Doesn’t Health Care fall under that category?
September 7th, 2009 at 11:16 amLibertyLover,
Coburn is rich and has great health care coverage. He doesn’t feel the need to care.
September 7th, 2009 at 11:17 amAbraham Lincoln, I solely blame you for all this.
Why couldn’t you let the down and dirty, poor-as-hell south just leave the Union?
It is widely known than without slavery and subsequent introduction of railroads, the south offered NOTHING of value to the country as a whole.
Nothing but fear, ignorance, and poverty.
Nothing more.
September 7th, 2009 at 11:17 am“TOWN HALL PARTICIPANT: You know, we have to take care of people. [Crowd yells "no!"]”
I bet these people, who are yelling “no,” are the same people who yelled “no” when Bush was going around the country trying to convince people to privatize Social Security.
September 7th, 2009 at 11:19 amCoburn quickly pivoted to a “tenther” argument, asking the woman: “Where do you find the authority in the U.S. Constitution for the federal government” to run a single-payer health care system?
Article I, Section 8, Clause 1:
Any other questions, Senator?
September 7th, 2009 at 11:19 amThis is just more bread and circuses for the masses.
September 7th, 2009 at 11:29 amAs this yahoo if we should also abolish the FBI. Under the tenther constitution there is no federal criminal law either. None of these numb nuts ever think this stuff through.
September 7th, 2009 at 11:31 amBush was going around the country trying to convince people to privatize Social Security.
Can anyone imagine the uproar (can you say “anarchy”?) had this idea come to fruition?
After the economy tanked near the end of Bush’s term, anyone who’d decided to let the markets determine their financial future (rather than the “wasteful” government) would be destitute, having all their live’s income deductions vanish overnight.
On further thought, this was perhaps what the “privatizers” wanted in the end.
September 7th, 2009 at 11:32 amCoburn tried to claim that “the reason we’re in so much trouble, the reason our kids’ future has been mortgaged, is because we’ve abandoned the idea of personal responsibility.”
Tell me something, Senator. You say we should take personal responsibility for our health. What do we do if we are poor, unable to move our family, and we live right next door to a corporation that is polluting our air and our water? You act as though government has no role in our daily lives whatsoever. That is a lie and you should not be in Congress if you believe that. Government has the responsibility to protect us not just from threats outside the country, but from unscrupulous people who would cheat us, harm us, or kill us. It is because of your Republican Party (and, at times, you in particular, Senator Coburn) that corporations have the legal right to cheat us, harm us and kill us.
September 7th, 2009 at 11:34 amWhen it comes to the tenthers, and the Tenth Amendment, I have only one thing to say:
Sue, you frickin’ idiots. You’ve GOT your 5-4 majority on the SCOTUS. Sue, and make YOUR VERSION of the Tenth Amendment the law of the land.
Naturally, being loudmouthed hypocritical liars, they intend to do NO SUCH THING. They LIKES them their Medicare and SS. “Keep your dirty gubmint paws off my Medicare!”
September 7th, 2009 at 11:34 amDNFP says:
On further thought, this was perhaps what the “privatizers” wanted in the end.
That is precisely what they wanted all along. Don’t let anyone tell you differently.
September 7th, 2009 at 11:36 amI’ve gotta tell ya TP that I’m pretty sick of your headlines that grab my attention enough to watch a video only to find that the exagerated claims you make are not based in reality.
Senator Coburn didnt lose any debate, I had to listen to this dribble for over four minutes to get to the part where he “loses”, and he just doesn’t. If you dont have footage of conservative’s really getting their asses handed to them please dont waste my time with your sensational headlines. I’m really sick of being drawn in just to hear more of my fellow progressives being trounced.
September 7th, 2009 at 11:37 amOops obviously I meant drivel, dribble? what was I thinking?
September 7th, 2009 at 11:39 amAnother “Let them eat cake” moment.
September 7th, 2009 at 11:39 amWayne A. Schneider says:
DNFP says:
On further thought, this was perhaps what the “privatizers” wanted in the end.
That is precisely what they wanted all along. Don’t let anyone tell you differently.
Guys…I used to say this as a joke, more or less, but it’s true: What they really want is to return to feudalism.
With barons, earls, kings, all wealth concentrated in the hands of a select super-rich few…and the rest of us their slaves.
Un-American, un-Christian, in-f**king-human. This is your modern wingnut Republican Party. Bring on the civil war. Let’s just get it over with.
September 7th, 2009 at 11:39 amThis man is the personification of the dominionist evangelical plot to destroy this nation, and to put a holy roller theocracy in its place, complete with its own form of Sharia.
Make sure to update your passports.
Those “christians” are vile and utterly crazy.
September 7th, 2009 at 11:40 amSo they don’t feel the need to take care of other people. OK, the next time one of their kids is hit by a car and needs help, I’ll walk on by. The next time a tornado ravages their town and I hear screams for help, I’ll walk on by. The next time I see a house on fire, I’ll walk on by. The next time I see a car accident with injuries, I’ll walk on by. If that’s the way they want it, I’ll happily oblige. You reap what you sow.
September 7th, 2009 at 11:41 amHey, rocks911? You don’t like the headlines?
Go somewhere else, then. TP has made much more serious journalistic mistakes than your little complaint here. She DID win the debate; he cut her off.
Go soak your progressive head and come back when your manners are back.
September 7th, 2009 at 11:42 amOff-topic (while TP’s unpaid interns are on vacation…)
Ashcroft subject to lawsuit by man who cites Justice policies
LINK
Looks like the “justice fan” is on, it’s just taking a while for the shit to engage said fan.
September 7th, 2009 at 11:42 amMr. Evil, if you know your New Testament like I do…what part in the parable of the Good Samaritan do you think these modern-day tenthers, ‘Christians’ or neocons would play?
Rhetorical question.
September 7th, 2009 at 11:43 amDaddy-O,
Knee jerk much?
I stated a relevant thought, sorry if you dont like it. Actually no I’m not…screw you.
September 7th, 2009 at 11:44 amAnd this insane clown had the nerve to bring up Jesus and compassion? Today’s Republican Party has got to be the most uncompassionate major party in our lifetimes.
And remember, folks, the Republican Party is not trying to “win” any debates on this subject. They are trying to confuse the public (through scare tactics) into getting them to say we should do nothing at all. ANY concession to the Republican Party on this issue is a concession to the corporate interests who want to continue to make huge profits off the sick and dying. I invite anyone to prove me wrong.
September 7th, 2009 at 11:46 amDNFP, this lawsuit is only the beginning…anyone with a brain and a semblance of realization of the laws of the land and our constitution when the Bushies were breaking every civil rights protection we have already knew these days would come, when their outrageous actions would have to be paid for.
Billions. This is going to cost us billions. All because a braindead village idiot from Texas was installed into the Presidency.
September 7th, 2009 at 11:47 amI’d never ask this guy a question. You don’t get to answer. It’s like Fox News….Lot’s of red meat. I hope enjoys his publicly provide healthcare.
September 7th, 2009 at 11:53 amThese same people wanted to go attack other countries after 911 because 3000 people died. Well they want to attack other countries for killing the insured of the 3000.
Seriously, we spend hundred of billionsm, if not over a trillion to defend the US and, supposedly, its people.
Why do the politicians, and the Stiltkins, want to spend billions defending people if they dont care if they get medical help?
September 7th, 2009 at 11:53 amrocks, you stated a relevant OPINION, and I shared mine.
Glad to see you got your manners back.
September 7th, 2009 at 11:54 amrelevance is subjective…
September 7th, 2009 at 11:56 amThe tenbirfdeathers say:
Save the unborn.
September 7th, 2009 at 11:58 amMedicare and grannies must go.
We dont care about the born.
The problem with personal responsibility is that Republicans have not taken their responsibility for what Bush did, to wit, lied to get us into a war, run up the massive debt and used torture. Astute constituents should confront people like Coburn about his responsibility for allowing these things to happen. It would certainly make a lot of Republicans uncomfortable at town hall meetings.
September 7th, 2009 at 11:59 amThe corpora-fascists want to continue the fairy-tale notion that their system is anything but socialism, when in fact, what we are living in now, what with elected officials and “private” (i.e. lobbyists) interests so deeply intertwined, is a form of tiered socialism with the lower rungs providing wealth and security for the elites.
Daddy-O is right on. We’re are living in a “caste” system RIGHT NOW heading down a path toward feudalism.
September 7th, 2009 at 12:00 pmIf we do away with medicare, social security and subsidising private health insurance, then we can do away with 750 bases worlwide, do away with missile shields, do away with Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force, Coast Guard, DHS, CIA, NSA, FBI alphabet soup etc if we dont care about what happems to our fellow Americans, right?
Whats the point of all this defense is no one gives a crap about each other?
September 7th, 2009 at 12:02 pmSo you basically define winning a debate as talking around the question and moving on to other distractions while a crowd yells at your opponant from the background.
No wonder we are in trouble, we didn’t know the rules.
September 7th, 2009 at 12:06 pmWhats the point of all this defense is no one gives a crap about each other?
Why silly littler feller, there’s-a-money to be made!
This country hasn’t cared about each other in decades, if ever.
The entire premise of our country is as hypocritical as you can get.
September 7th, 2009 at 12:09 pmI believe that one of the things fueling our nation’s founding was a rejection of the theory of the Divine Right of Kings. It strikes me that what Republicans really support is a monarchy, where you have one person in charge making final decisions on everything. (Why else would Bush proudly, if ignorantly, call himself “The Decider”?)
Republicans absolutely love the idea of a business owner being able to rule over his employees’ lives. They hate the idea that there should be any authority of any kind over the business owner. In their hearts, Republicans really want a return to a monarchy. As long as the monarch comes from the Republican Party.
Unless you own a company, or head a huge publicly-traded corporation, the Republican Party does not care about your welfare one bit. Don’t ever believe they do.
September 7th, 2009 at 12:12 pmHe wasnt able to defend his remark about the tenth amendment even though he brought it up. He, in my POV, lost whatever point he was trying to make.
September 7th, 2009 at 12:12 pmGet your battle-gear ready.
“You Cannot Regulate Evil. You have to eliminate it and replace it with something that’s good for all people, and that something is called democracy.”
– Michael Moore
Are you willing to fight for what you believe in, because our current “system” will no go down quietly, as is now painfully evident.
September 7th, 2009 at 12:13 pmHe, in my POV, lost whatever point he was trying to make.
And therein lies the problem.
Those who need enlightenment will NEVER see things through your POV.
September 7th, 2009 at 12:16 pmI asked my representative the exact same question and received the exact same non-answer. I asked him if he would go ahead and tell all the seniors and vets in the room that he was against their health care. He had no answer but basically said verbatim what Colburn said. Lying liars.
September 7th, 2009 at 12:18 pmGOP: I got mine, fukc you.
September 7th, 2009 at 12:19 pmHe went on to say “you can’t love through the Federal government”
It’s even harder to love others through corporate, facist, scumbag, elitist, godless, illness-industry providers.
September 7th, 2009 at 12:21 pmDemocracy is a ruse, free markets a lie, our captured economy is a ponzi scheme, our money supply is in private hands, our politicians, protectors of greed, talk about debt while creating ever more of it, then ask the people they robbed ‘How are we gonna pay for this?’
September 7th, 2009 at 12:21 pmAnd you can let Senator Coburn know what you think directly by using his official contact form found here:
http://coburn.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=ContactSenatorCoburn.Home
September 7th, 2009 at 12:22 pmI guess it’s officially too late for anyone to stand up at a Republican townhall and tell the Congressman that this is not about healthcare, this is about getting the Republicans back in the majority by causing Obama to fail on healthcare reform. And of course, you had a chance to NOT ELECT Obama last year. How did that work out for ya?
September 7th, 2009 at 12:23 pmSorry Fred,
I guess winning a debate means denying reality to some who are no smarter than a box of rocks.
Again, as Wayne stated above:
Article I, Section 8, Clause 1:
If Coburn won the debate, how is Article I, section 8 wrong? ROX?
September 7th, 2009 at 12:26 pmHide and watch, this politician is setting his constituents up for subsidising his crony private insurance pals and the townhall rebeleers cant see it coming and wont utter a peep after they get shafted because it would present their ignance.
September 7th, 2009 at 12:27 pmSo Social Security and Medicare are Bankrupt?
Hey Coburn, why didn’t you remember to add the part where CONGRESS PUT THEIR STEALING HANDS Into the coffers of both systems to PAY FOR things THEY WANTED?
You republicans laughed at Al Gore when he made a phrase “Lock Box” but atleast Al Gore was going to keep his cotten pickin hands off of Medicare and Social Security and not spend that money on some new fighter jet that hasn’t been used against “The Russians” (when it was thought of)!!
September 7th, 2009 at 12:31 pmExactly what is in the 10th amendment that prohibits government programs such as Medicare, Social Security or public libraries?
September 7th, 2009 at 12:33 pmThe situation occurred in the United States after Obama was elected tells a lot. The young, effective and relentless United States is rapidly becoming an old, senile nation riddled with dogmas.
Health care debacle will surely lead to the immigration debacle next year and that will be the cornerstone whether a diverse society (like U.S. )remains integrated or starts to break up.
Empire collapses from inside, not by foreign troops.
September 7th, 2009 at 12:36 pmBenjamin Disrael defined conservatism as ‘Organized hypocrisy’
September 7th, 2009 at 12:39 pmstewarjt says:
Exactly what is in the 10th amendment that prohibits government programs such as Medicare, Social Security or public libraries?
September 7th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
I think it’s the fact that the 10th Amendment doesn’t specifically allow them.
It’s all bullshit anyway…
September 7th, 2009 at 12:41 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
stewarjt says:
Exactly what is in the 10th amendment that prohibits government programs such as Medicare, Social Security or public libraries?
In light of the fact that Article I, Section 8, Clause 1 gives them the authority to create such programs, there is nothing in the Tenth Amendment that prohibits them.
September 7th, 2009 at 12:41 pmIs Senator Coburn advocating the immediate closure of all VA hospitals on constitutional grounds?
September 7th, 2009 at 12:42 pmI disagree, this ]8@p Coburn LOVES to sop at the populis expense.
September 7th, 2009 at 12:43 pmThis is great stuff! Republicans going on record as to believing Social Security and Medicare are unconstitutional? They’re only got two decent demographics left that they can count on: old fools and racists. And, they’re pissing all over the old fools.
If Democrats are even slightly on their game, by the months leading up to the next election, Repubs are going to have some explaining to do if they want to keep getting all those senior votes.
September 7th, 2009 at 12:43 pmPicking stocks is gambling, I wouldnt dare call it work by sitting on ones arse and trading playing cards.
September 7th, 2009 at 12:46 pmarco says:
September 7th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
Here’s a cookie.
September 7th, 2009 at 12:46 pmHey, Senator, as long as you’re ignoring questions put directly to you, how’s the fight against that rampant lesbianism in Oklahoma high school bathrooms going?
September 7th, 2009 at 12:46 pmCoburn, Republicans and conservative principles are Wrong again.
September 7th, 2009 at 12:47 pmMedicare and Social Security are still standing and enriching the lives of millions of Americans while the conservative agenda of ‘Free Market’ has DESTROYED the economy, while destroying the lives of millions of Americans.
The United States has a good balance of Capitalism and Government/Public run programs. Lets keep it that way.
“We have to help the people.”
The crowd responds, “No!”
Don’t you just love conservative Christians. According to one of his best friends, a guy named Matthew, Jesus thought everyone in the crowd who shouted “no” is going to hell. Maybe the good Christians of Oklahoma should re-read that section. It’s called “The Book of Matthew.”
September 7th, 2009 at 12:49 pmWe need to get rid of the Food and Drug Administration. The Federal Government has no business regulating the safety of the food we eat and the medicine we take. Since the Food and Drug Administration is not specifically mentioned in the Constitution, it must be unconstitutional!
The free market will regulate the food and drug industries: companies that poison people will lose business. (but “tort reform” will protect them from expensive lawsuits!) Poison enough people and eventually people will stop buying your product. Who needs government regulation, when the free market will do the same job for less. Ok, so people will die from eating toxic food or taking poisonous medicines. That’s a small price to pay compared to the unregulated profit potential.
September 7th, 2009 at 12:51 pmarco,
For the record, I do not believe your back story. But since you can say anything you want without having to prove it, and I can claim it’s not true without having to disprove it, we’re not going to get anywhere there.
Second, even if everything you said was true (and I doubt it), it wouldn’t be justification for saying “Screw you” to the rest of the country.
Lastly, a math teacher having his students play a “stock-picking game” sounds an awful lot like he was trying to indoctrinate them into the philosophy of greed and selfishness.
September 7th, 2009 at 12:51 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
I’m sure all of us are very impressed and happy for your good fortune, Arco.
But really, what is your point? Is your point that some people have made good decisions, been lucky in their investments and are doing well now? Hey, that’s great news! But you know, our founders weren’t interested in “some people.” They tried to build a system which would provide for the general welfare of “all the people.” You probably forgot.
September 7th, 2009 at 12:53 pmIt is the “general welfare” clause the permits the Government to implement a lot of things including Social Security, medicare and hopefully health care reform. It is also what allows for food and drug safety, clean water, environmental protection and a lot more. The Republican agenda for killing these programs is becoming obvious, the Bush attempt at privatization of Social Security was attempt to kill it. The trouble in the economy and huge war spending is providing the Repubs the argument that we cannot afford the social programs they hate so much. This was no accident, but part of there long range agenda. There is no middle goung in this debate any longer. The election of a black man as President has sent them into fits and exposed their radicalism. This is a critical point, if the health care debate is lost, there will be no stopping them, it will encourage their behavior.
September 7th, 2009 at 12:54 pmanother coburn lie. If we put just a little genuine effort into fixing a few things that are wrong with it and keep the right’s hands off of it, it is actually the most successful social or private enterprise in the history of the world.
September 7th, 2009 at 12:54 pmX, I think you touched a nerve. ;)
September 7th, 2009 at 12:55 pmarco: “You believe the government should take money from people like me to give to people WHO DID NOT SAVE and WHO DID NOT PLAN along the way.”
In 1983, payroll taxes were DOUBLED to pay for the boomer generation’s retirement. The money was to be put in a trust fund. As you probably know, the Reagan administration pulled a “bait and switch” and started using trust fund money to run government. When GW Bush pushed through his tax cuts (using the budget reconciliation process with 54 votes), a trillion dollars of payroll taxes paid by working people were transferred to the top 2% of the wealthy in our country.
This was the largest single transfer of wealth in the history of civilization and you not only don’t know about it, you don’t care about it either because it was to the wealthy instead of from the wealthy.
So shut your damn mouth you ignorant hypocrite!
September 7th, 2009 at 12:59 pmSeptember 7th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
Yeh. They know as well as I do that when wealth is ‘made’ its actually taken from someone else. They dont consider that ’stealing’ unless its taken from them, ironically.
September 7th, 2009 at 1:02 pmTHIS JUST IN:
In other news, “tenthers” are celebrating the restoration of the United States Constitution with the rescission of the equal voting rights amendment. As of November 2010, only white males will be allowed to vote. Next on their agenda is a repeal of the Thirteenth Amendment. “Slavery should be regulated by the free market, not by the Federal Government.” said one “tenther” speaking from underneath a white hood, who wished to remain anonymous. “In fact, the Founding Fathers even protected Slavery in the Constitution!” he added.
September 7th, 2009 at 1:02 pmarco,
Do you have a paid holiday today? If so, you know who you can thank for that, don’t you? I’ll give you a hint – it wasn’t the conservatives.
September 7th, 2009 at 1:04 pmAnd I dont think your rich at all Arco. You have a few million paper IOUs Great. Your still just a bacteria in the big fish ocean.
September 7th, 2009 at 1:04 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
arco screeched:
“You believe the government should take money from people like me to give to people WHO DID NOT SAVE and WHO DID NOT PLAN along the way.”
Not only do I believe it, arco, but it’s the American way. Dwight D. Eisenhower, President, war hero, winner of WW II, overseer of the original Good Old Days of conservative paradise, was serving his term when we had 90% tax rates on the richest of the rich.
The rich didn’t flee the country. They didn’t go broke. They got even richer as the economy grew, and as the middle class grew and spent, and more and more of that money ended up in the richest Americans’ pockets. Trickle down theory has never worked; the trickle UP theory always has. It’s too bad the super-rich are either 1) too stupid, 2) too lazy or 3) too risk-averse to understand that.
You need to read up on your history if you’re really going to make money or tell us what public policy should be. You lack a real understanding of what works and what doesn’t.
September 7th, 2009 at 1:07 pmXisthrus: “I notice you call it ‘making’ money not earning it. Con men make money to. And I am not interested in the market, it cost the american people some 13 trillion in loans and gurantees to keep that Ponzi scheme afloat.”
Financial markets are inherent Ponzi schemes because phony wealth that has no associated product or service is “created,” that is, conjured up out of thin air. The Father of Capitalism was extremely suspicious of financial markets. Adam Smith believed that wealth was created by combining labor and natural resources to build or make something of value.
Financial markets only create paper money – no real services, no real products and no real benefit to society. It’s like gambling – if you want to do it, have at it, but it should be heavily regulated and the last year should have proven that to everyone who isn’t a raving lunatic (I’m looking at you, arco!)
September 7th, 2009 at 1:07 pmFYI:
September 7th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
arco, if you’re really that rich, you should consider moving to Russia.
There, they REALLY know how to treat the rich with respect, bended knee, and fear. You’ll LOVE it. And only one right wing Party, too!
September 7th, 2009 at 1:09 pmarco: “Who leads the world? Oh, the capitalist country. Shocker. But not for long. Too much debt. Debt destroyed other empires, and will destroy this one.”
So, you’re basically admitting that it’s not a system that can last. Tell us, great sage, where we got our great debt. When I look at the last 30 years it looks like Reagan/Bush tripled it and GW Bush sent it even higher. When, great sage, was the last time we had manageable debt? Could it have been in the 60’s, when the top marginal rate was 75%?
September 7th, 2009 at 1:10 pmThere’s nothing in the constitution about making plants illegal, so the tenthers must also favor eliminating federal laws criminalizing hemp, yes?
September 7th, 2009 at 1:12 pmBaucus Submits Compromise Health Plan
Wall Street Journal – Greg Hitt, Janet Adamy – ?31 minutes ago?
WASHINGTON — After months of deliberations, Senate Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus has distributed a plan to overhaul the health system that would cost less than $900 billion over a decade and expand insurance …
Baucus Urges GOP to Support His $900B Health Reform Bill Washington Post
Senator’s health care plan skips public option, source says CNN
Reuters – The Associated Press – Bloomberg – Salon
all 1,429 news articles »
http://news.google.com/news/more?pz=1&ncl=dZwZNypDYbQzXmMpRxTYDMlhelAMM&topic=h
i just heard an APradio news report about this, including a blurb about how his plan includes a TAX on the insurance companies to help pay for plans for un/underinsured…
gee, i wonder if the insurance cos will pass along that “tax” to existing policy holders…
baucus needs to be neutered…
c’mon, barack… just do what’s right…
well, at the LEAST, the public option…
September 7th, 2009 at 1:13 pmCentral planning by the government doesn’t work. If it did, the old Soviet Union would’ve been leading the world, and Venezuela’s and Cuba’s economies would be thriving. Uh, no.
I notice you conveniently left China out of the picture.
Fact is, in this modern world…we need a mix of Govt. Planning and Regulation AND Free Enterprise. All Developed Civilized Countries do it this way.
Capitalism is like fire…essential but Dangerous when left Uncontrolled.
September 7th, 2009 at 1:15 pmarco says:
September 7th, 2009 at 1:16 pm
arco: Most people who are rich, did so via long-term investing and not spending more than they make. Read “The Millionaire Next Door.”
Balls. Most rich people in this country either inherited their money, or they received bloated executive salaries. Thanks for the Horatio Alger story, but it’s completely unbelievable.
September 7th, 2009 at 1:16 pmarco: “Who leads the world? Oh, the capitalist country. Shocker. But not for long. Too much debt. Debt destroyed other empires, and will destroy this one.”
This guy is just too funny and I can’t leave it alone. Right, arco, and who will be the biggest when we’re not? China, right? And how have we been paying for government during the modern conservative movement of the last 30 years? Why by selling Treasury bills to wealthy people and foreign governments that’s how. In other words, the modern conservative way is to borrow money from other governments and borrow money from wealthy people instead of tax them. Using this method of funding government, we have gone from the world’s largest creditor nation in 1979 to the world’s largest debtor nation today.
Thanks, ARCO!
September 7th, 2009 at 1:17 pmlove it:
Max Baucus’ Plan:
What Do We Want? Less Quality!
When Do We Want It? Now!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-dayen/max-baucus-plan-what-do-w_b_278737.html
September 7th, 2009 at 1:17 pmyou are wrong We have the right vote
September 7th, 2009 at 1:17 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
Well you obviously aren’t giving enough to make the difference are you?
Your plan guarantees that people die which seems to be okie dokie as far as you are concerned.
we know you, you are evil.
September 7th, 2009 at 1:18 pmI’m wondering what the hell is an OKie senator doing
talking to people in Arkansas!
Did the SOB get lost? Get hell out of my state you
stupid *******! Keep your BS in your own state.
Why those people elected you, I can’t imagine! God!
September 7th, 2009 at 1:19 pmYou’re ignorant of the Constitution. You shouldn’t
even be a doctor. Gives the rest of them a bad name.
It’s revealing that “arco” thinks that he’s the only one here who ever works hard, saves money, or takes responsibility for themselves.
It’s even more interesting that he thinks that money and personal responsibility will shield him from harm.
September 7th, 2009 at 1:20 pmI concur
September 7th, 2009 at 1:20 pmArco thinks inflation is a good thing.
Its people that think like this that the reason our currency has lost some 96% of its value since 1913.
September 7th, 2009 at 1:23 pm#88, wrong again. Link:
September 7th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
The trolls are out in force today. They must have the day off thanks to UNIONS!!!
September 7th, 2009 at 1:27 pmNo, you wish I was ignorant of the ‘market’
Capitalism, in its death dance, is no different than fascism or communism or dictators or Kings, sooner or later, like monopoly, is centered in fewer and fewer hands. This system has not worked for any empire or nation EVER. Yet here we are not learning from history how the love of money is the root of evil [Wars etc for profit]
September 7th, 2009 at 1:27 pmI wouldn’t at all be surprised that if we stopped funding the Pentagon, it too, would go broke. I guess defense spending is unconstitutional. Who knew?
September 7th, 2009 at 1:27 pm“arco says:
You believe the government should take money from people like me to give to people WHO DID NOT SAVE and WHO DID NOT PLAN along the way.”
The greedy and selfish people have been hiding behind this mantra for ages.
Many of us gladly and freely give what little we can afford to help the lives of others. Only the sick and greedy people believe taxes are ‘taking money from people like me’, while normal people see taxes as a convenient and fair way to pay for beneficial services such as police, fire, libraries, schools, retirement, health, roads, etc. If you privatize all those services in the ‘Free Market’ world, nobody would be able to afford them.
We do so because we have compassion in our hearts, knowing there are many unfortunates in the world that have a hard time time ‘SAVING and PLANING’ for themselves due to hardships such as illness, poverty, dysfunction, listening to Fox News, etc.
September 7th, 2009 at 1:28 pm#97. Bzzt, wrong. Inflation is bad, but you can’t deny it exists.
Except for now, of course. We have deflation.
I think all of the spending by the government combined with low interest rates will ultimately lead to much higher inflation, though. That’s why gold is rallying.
September 7th, 2009 at 1:28 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
I dont think money making money is work. It causes many more problems than it solves, Its the reason, greed [money making money] is why health insurance doubles every 8-10 years
September 7th, 2009 at 1:31 pm#102, I agree on paying taxes for schools, roads, police, fire, etc. But it’s the expansion of the role of government that is the problem and why the economy is struggling and the debt is exploding.
For example, we already have a Dept of Energy that was established in the 1970’s to help end reliance on foreign energy. Gee, nice job there, DOE. Anyways, then Obama wants a Green Jobs czar. Why doesn’t that fall under the DOE? Why the duplication?
September 7th, 2009 at 1:32 pmThey dont care about the people, they just want a write off on taxes.
September 7th, 2009 at 1:32 pmRepublicans may donate more money to charities, which is totally easy, but more Dems are out there actually doing the work.
September 7th, 2009 at 1:32 pmIt’s not enough
I think we should pass a law that will make you donate a certain percentage of your income to charities.
September 7th, 2009 at 1:33 pmAnd duing the Bush years you were all for growing government by some 35% and creating yet another intelligence dept called the DHS and expanding government thru military bases in the ME.
September 7th, 2009 at 1:33 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
arco, as Wayne suggested, it’s good policy around here to discount personal information from anonymous posters, especially when that personal information provides support for their argument.
Whatever your personal situation and history, it is irrelevant in the larger discussion of what is best for the nation. Clearly, there are millions of Americans who cannot afford the cost of health coverage from private insurers. You, no doubt, will attribute this inability to some moral defect that you have been spared, and I have no doubt that this will let you rest comfortably in your self-reliant delusion.
But the fact is that, as a percentage of GDP, our nation pays roughly twice what most other industrial nations pay for health care. We do not get significantly better outcomes; in fact by many measures, our outcomes are worse.
Something is clearly not working well. It’s not working well for a large part of the population, and it’s not working well for the nation as a whole.
We have tried the “free market”. It doesn’t work.
It doesn’t work because the balancing forces inherent in a consumer market are distorted when it comes to a “demand-inelastic” service like health care. This means that demand doesn’t shrink when prices rise, and it doesn’t expand when prices fall. Demand for health care is what it is, and it doesn’t respond to market forces the way classic capitalism requires.
In this way, it’s much more similar to law enforcement or basic education. Both are services that benefit the whole society the more widely they are available. Neither is a service in which people will “indulge” when the service is freely available.
Treating health care as a basic social service has worked very well in Canada, Europe and Japan. It’s not perfect, but if you’re seeking perfection in any human endeavor then you’re going to be disappointed. Still, universal coverage is a proven, workable way to deliver health care in civilized societies, and by almost every measure a much superior one to our own.
September 7th, 2009 at 1:34 pmarco,
I have to seriously question the scientific validity of a poll conducted in this manner.
September 7th, 2009 at 1:35 pmAnd now, just now, Arco has woken up.
Wake up and go back to bed Rumpelstiltskin, you did nothing but support the very policies you now say you are against for the last eight years.
September 7th, 2009 at 1:36 pmSo, you’re a socialist.
by the way the economy is struggling because of the fiscal policies that you hold so dear.
People who are aware understand that your methods just failed, big time and are why we are in trouble right now.
You are a greedy, insolent, self-important fool.
You exemplify what is wrong with our country.
You want what you want and the hell with everyone else. You are not a good person. I’m glad I don’t live next door to you. I would not let my children play with your children.
September 7th, 2009 at 1:37 pmarco says:
YOU are a liar and a fool so YOU STFU moron. You brainwashed rightwing morons are so stupid it is just astonishing
September 7th, 2009 at 1:38 pm#110, no i wasn’t. Bush was fiscally liberal. I was against all of that, prescriptions for seniors, war in Iraq, etc.
But Obama is much worse. He’s going to run up nearly a $2 trillion deficit in one year! OUCH!
I don’t see any fiscal conservatives out there. I think because you can’t win elections being fiscally conservative. So the country is going bankrupt because the momentum is too strong to turn around. It will hurt. The government will have to raise taxes or devalue the currency. They’re doing the latter now. If they raise taxes, hooo, unemployment remains high and growth suffers.
Obama is probably going to see a repeat of the late 1970’s. Gold and materials will go up, inflation will go up, unemployment will go up, etc.
September 7th, 2009 at 1:39 pm#116, nope
September 7th, 2009 at 1:39 pmWayne A. Schneider says:
I have to seriously question the scientific validity of a poll conducted in this manner.
September 7th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
No need to seriously question the validity of an online anything, Wayne. They are complete crap.
September 7th, 2009 at 1:39 pmGee, the debt has been exploding since 2000. Lets elect some more republicans to office..wait. Werent they the majority in the house and senate and held the whitehouse during those years, and now, nine months later, they are suddenly cured of the record pork barreling good times!
Yes, its a miracle greater than the curing of Ted Haggard! Our publican are fiscally reborn!
Yeh, rigggghhhhhhhtttt.
September 7th, 2009 at 1:39 pmThat’s a lie.
September 7th, 2009 at 1:40 pmarco says:
Oh absolutly. There is no doubt. You are a liar and a fool and a moron. It is as clear as can be
September 7th, 2009 at 1:41 pm#115, you’re just dumb over and over again, aren’t you?
You don’t have a grasp of the subject matter. You may want to go out in the yard and play or pull weeds or something.
Don’t worry, I doubt you’ll ever have the financial means to buy a home in my neighborhood. I don’t think you have the intellectual fire power to change that. Playing the lottery may be your only chance. Or marry into money. Start tweeting Paris Hilton or Tila Tequila. You never know.
September 7th, 2009 at 1:43 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
Are you serious?
We’ve just come through (or are still dealing with) an economic crisis that was almost entirely brought upon by irresponsible private sector boom mentality. A “hands-off” government let the financial sector grow to over 8% of GDP in 2006, a growth boom roughly comparable to that seen in the period 1920-1933. Any guesses what happened to bring that boom to a close?
The government spending in the Bush era was damaging, yes, but mainly because it was foolish. Tax cuts eliminated the federal surplus, and then a foreign war of choice was launched and taxes were cut still further. No nation in the history of modern warfare had EVER cut taxes during wartime before. You know why? Because WARS ARE EXPENSIVE. They’re even mnore expensivce than usual when almost half of your personnel are private sector mercenaries who are paid three to four times what your professional soldiery earns.
September 7th, 2009 at 1:44 pmI hate to bust the ‘Tenthers’ bubble, but the only thing that amendment says is that the powers not enunciated in the constitution are reserved to the states. The ‘Commerce Clause’ of the Constitution trumps this amendment and their argument every time and hands down. Even the wingnuts on the Supreme Court would have a hard time avoiding the law established on this. Not that they wouldn’t try.
September 7th, 2009 at 1:45 pmI care more about your grandmother than you do Arco.
I dont know how political ideology works into what is simply caring.
Yet, thats what the con men and MBAs want you to think, that I want to steal your precious paper money and give it to your granny. They want me to think that life, somehow, is worth less than the fiat they horde.
September 7th, 2009 at 1:46 pm#121, nope.
Link
There you go. I rounded up to $2T. What’s a few hundred billion? Besides, government financial estimates usually understate the amount.
September 7th, 2009 at 1:46 pmarco says:
#122, yep
September 7th, 2009 at 1:47 pmarco: “Except for now, of course. We have deflation.”
Hear that everyone? Health care insurance premiums have tripled over the last 8 years, but arco claims we’re in “deflation.”
That’s the kind of quality analysis you can expect from someone who looks at the quantity of people with over $500K, calls them “rich” and makes grand proclamations about how most wealth is made and not inherited. Arco is just the kind of fool/tool the real wealthy need in this country to run interference for them while they plunder the treasury.
September 7th, 2009 at 1:47 pmWow.
“arco” packs a powerful “nope.”
September 7th, 2009 at 1:48 pm“Bush was fiscally liberal”???
No, he was fiscally FOOLISH.
He spent, yes, but he spent foolishly and he did it on credit. He nearly DOUBLED the national debt in eight years. All of the extra spending he authorized — on wars, on homeland security, on Medicare drug programs, whatever — was done on BORROWED MONEY.
Don’t try to use your ignorant distorted view of liberalism to try to claim that Bush was in ANY WAY “liberal”.
September 7th, 2009 at 1:48 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
This comment has been voted down. Click to read.
.
arco = status quo
.
September 7th, 2009 at 1:51 pm#131, I got a lot of ‘em in my nope bag.
September 7th, 2009 at 1:51 pmWow. You are a MASS of misinformation, aren’t you?
So overestimating by a third is simply “rounding up”, huh?
And if you think government financial estimates “usually understate the amount”, you haven’t been paying attention. The Bush administration routinely OVERestimated the projected deficit and then, when the actual number came in at less, they crowed about how “successful” their fiscal policies were. I have no reason to expect Obama is doing any differently.
September 7th, 2009 at 1:52 pmYeah, and I’m bettin you don’t think that there are any working poor in America and so everyone should have a 401K, right?
I’m sick of people like you who imply that just because people are not able to get ahead in this rat race that it’s because they aren’t trying.
You are evil. I just can’t put it any plainer than that.
September 7th, 2009 at 1:53 pmOf course you do. You’;re a right-winger. A lot of “nope” is all you guys have these days.
September 7th, 2009 at 1:53 pm#130, nope. I don’t claim we’re having deflation, your government does.
September 7th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
arco says:
You are a liar and a fool and a moron. Bush wasnt liberal in ANY way fiscal or otherwise. He spent money in CONSERVATIVE ways not liberal ways. You are breathtakingly stupid. You just use the word liberal as a synonym of bad because you are stupid and because you are brainwashed. You dont even make sense you babble stupidity and thats all you do
September 7th, 2009 at 1:56 pm#139, just looking for better answers that creating new government programs and expanding government.
Remember how the stimulus package was supposed to create all those “shovel-ready jobs?” Guess which economic sector is doing the worse? Construction.
Nice job, government.
September 7th, 2009 at 1:57 pmarco says:
By the way MORON. The prescription bill was NOT liberal or it wouldnt have included a 139 billion dollar subsidy to the pharmacuetical industry my GOD you are stupid
September 7th, 2009 at 1:57 pmHi arco
September 7th, 2009 at 1:59 pmDo you think your incapable government can handle protecting you from the freedom haters that hate your freedoms?
Did you do this in a wheelchair or walking on crutches?
No.
Did you serve in the military and survive an injury?
No.
Were you injured in a car accident and crippled for life?
No.
You were born lucky and you think you are a great person.
Phuck you. You are evil.
September 7th, 2009 at 2:00 pm#141, nope. I think you’re brainwashed or something. Your comments don’t make sense.
Bush was right up there with LBJ on liberal spending. Look at the chart.
September 7th, 2009 at 2:00 pmBush was fiscally liberal. Everyone knows that. Prescriptions for seniors was a liberal program.
If that were true (and I’m sure it isn’t), then why would Bush have agreed to sign a bill that prevented the government from negotiating with the pharmaceutical companies for lower prescription drug prices for seniors on Medicare? That hardly sounds like the actions of a liberal.
And if Bush were “fiscally liberal”, and liberals supposedly love taxing people (according to conservatives), then why would Bush have agreed to give the wealthiest one percent in this country several huge tax breaks?
This argument that Bush was really fiscally liberal is simply unsupported by all the evidence to the contrary. It’s also a sign of desperation (or ignorance) to make it.
September 7th, 2009 at 2:02 pmget out your crystal ball and tell us how much better it would be now without the stimulus. Eugene is right about you.
I am too, you are evil. You lie as easily as you breath.
September 7th, 2009 at 2:02 pmBTW, Back on topic.
Tom Coburn is still a jerk regardless of arco’s distractions. arco is a useless troll.
September 7th, 2009 at 2:02 pmSeems time for a nope slap…
September 7th, 2009 at 2:03 pmspending yes, liberal spending, not in any way.
Answer me this arco, would you just as soon tell a lie when the truth would work just as well?
September 7th, 2009 at 2:05 pmarco,
I bet you didn’t know this, but the Cato Institute will not publish any paper that proves a government program works. That’s how insanely libertarian they are. So their viewpoint is extremely skewed.
September 7th, 2009 at 2:06 pmarco, LBJ paid for his spending. How did bush do?
September 7th, 2009 at 2:06 pmBush was right up there with LBJ on liberal spending
September 7th, 2009 at 2:06 pm—-
Any chance you can point me to the place where you were b itching about this then? Thanks…
No you’re not.
If you really were “looking for better answers” you would have taken seriously the long post I left at 112.
Instead, you are pretty obviously locked in to your “government can’t do anything” mindset which is not only myopic but also self-defeating, given that theoretically, WE are the government, and we get the government we deserve.
There are certain tasks for which government is ideally suited, and some for which the private sector works best. Health insurance is clearly one of the former, given the total cock-up our major insurance companies have made of it.
You can decry “government expansion” all you want, but all it does is suggest the question: why should thew American people elect a party to run government if that party believes government can’t work?
September 7th, 2009 at 2:07 pmarco says:
That you are plain stupid is obvious. The AMOUNT of spending in no way makes that spending liberal to anyone not as stupid as YOU. WHAT it was spent on. WHERE did the money go would be the defining characteristic of spending, which DOES make sense to anyone not as stupid as YOU. Yes you are a moron and yes you are brainwashed and yes these statements DO make sense find someone NOT as stupid as you to explain them to you
September 7th, 2009 at 2:08 pm“arco says:
it’s the expansion of the role of government that is the problem and why the economy is struggling and the debt is exploding.”
And here are more stupid Boogyman conservative talking points.
There is NO expansion of the role of government! It grows normally to fit the needs of the times. And it is NOT the problem why the economy is struggling and the debt is exploding.
2 wars (one unnecessary republican neo-con Iraqi war for oil), and the collapse of the world economy due to 8 years of Bush’s failed republican conservative policies are the main causes why the economy is struggling and the debt is exploding.
One only has to remember the prosperity and good times during the Clinton Presidency to see how Democratic principles are good for America and the economy.
Geez get a clue, stop listening to bigoted blowhard extremist Rush Liehard.
September 7th, 2009 at 2:09 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
arco says:
#88, wrong again. Link:
PNC’s fourth annual Wealth and Values Survey revealed that 69 percent of Americans with $500,000 or more in investable assets accumulated most of their fortune by earning it through work, business ownership or investments. This compares to the 6 percent who attained their wealth primarily through inheritance. The remaining 25 percent gained their wealth through a combination of inheritance and earnings.
Which utterly fails to respond to the second part of my statement: bloated executive salaries.
September 7th, 2009 at 2:11 pmArco, as a stock investor, you’re the beneficiary of one of the biggest pieces of government welfare in existence–the limited liability corporation. If you own stock in a company that makes a profit, you are entitled to a share of the profits the company makes–but if the company racks up billions of dollars of debt and goes under, you are liable only for the price you paid for your stock.
You are an owner of the corporation–and yet all those people your company borrowed from and took services from can’t come after you for the money they’re rightfully owed. In previous era’s, when a merchant’s ship was sunk, the creditors could take all his possessions for payment of debts. But you, Mr. Stock Owner, can be an owner of Enron and none of those folks can touch you.
that’s no more fair than welfare. You are protected by government fiat from money you rightly owe. The money you make is in large part predicated on government protection. Would those investments be worth anywhere near their value without that protection? If buying a hundred dollar share could make you liable for thousand of dollars in corporate debt? It would not.
The limited liability corporation was instituted as a monstrous piece of public welfare because it was good for the economy: it made investment easier, and made economic growth more feasible. It worked.
Single payer health insurance is just as unfair as the limited liability corporation, and is being argued on the sam basis–that it is good for society in general, makes entrepreneurship easier by lessening catastrophic risks.
As someone who has profited in the millions by government welfare, it seems you don’t exactly have a high horse to get on in this regard.
September 7th, 2009 at 2:11 pmi think President Obama did not proclaim it loud enough that he was finally putting all the boosh accrued debt on the books…
every frighty thinks all this debt just happened the past 6 months…
i wonder where they think all money for wars and tax breaks for the wealthiest came from… oh, that’s right, it was printed!
September 7th, 2009 at 2:11 pmArco: “are you saying Obama won’t double the national debt?”
Conservatives only care about debt when a Democrat is in office. After 12 years of Reagan/Bush, they magically became concerned in Clinton took over. After 8 years of silence during Bush, now their crying big wet tears over the issue.
Remember your favorite Vice President’s own words. Dick Cheney: “Deficits don’t matter. Reagan proved that.”
September 7th, 2009 at 2:12 pmI thought liberals were “tax-and-spenders”?
How then was Bush in any way “liberal”? Bush was a “borrow-and-spender“. Given that the national debt has increased by leaps and bounds under the last three REPUBLICAN presidents, “borrow-and-spend” is clearly a CONSERVATIVE habit.
arco reminds me of a right-wing friend of mine who tried to claim that JFK was a conservative because he cut taxes and Nixon was a liberal because he signed the Environmental Protection Act.
September 7th, 2009 at 2:12 pmFor an allegedly rich person, “arco” is surprisingly angry and bitter.
“arco” also doesn’t seem to understand that “planning” and “opportunity” are very different things.
I hope “arco” gets everything he deserves in life.
September 7th, 2009 at 2:13 pmarco, no one cares what your family situation was. No one believes you, so what you say is irrelevant.
Whenever anyone defends his disdain for poor people by celebrating his own triumph over adversity, I can pretty much count on the fact that enormous, relevant chunks of the story are left on the cutting room floor.
September 7th, 2009 at 2:15 pmarco says:
I went to college…
those FAFSA forms were a drag, huh…
but, thank the government you got the help you needed, huh…
September 7th, 2009 at 2:15 pmArco: “And then the magic of compounding savings, as Warren Buffett calls the 8th wonder of the world.”
Since you seem to like Buffett a lot, maybe you should listen a little more closely to him. Buffet believes it is a disgrace that his secretary pays a larger percentage of her income in taxes than he does. Buffett believes in the inheritance tax and thinks taxing the wealthy at a higher rate stimulates the entire economy. One of his best recent quotes: “Of course there’s a class war going on… and we’re winning.”
September 7th, 2009 at 2:15 pmArcos’ planning is really going to help him if a major disability hits him.
September 7th, 2009 at 2:18 pmRight down the toilet, where pigs belong.
This greedy troll is betting the farm on continued good helth.
Good luck with that one, fool.
Spend four days in the hospital and kiss your savings and your arrogant arse goodbye.
Happy Labor Day, all.
tony anbd lido
This comment has been voted down. Click to read.
Karma is for pigs like arco.
September 7th, 2009 at 2:20 pmdtony and lido
I went to college, and read a lot of books.
——
September 7th, 2009 at 2:21 pmApparantly notmany cookbooks as pasta need not be accompanied by a tomato based sauce…
#168, nope. I plan. It’s easy if you try, John Lennon. So I buy disability insurance. As I mentioned elsewhere, I also have catastrophic health care insurance annually for amounts over $10K.
September 7th, 2009 at 2:22 pm#171, lol.
September 7th, 2009 at 2:23 pmarco
September 7th, 2009 at 2:23 pmI read lots of books and elect notto have tv.So how about you share with my some of your favoritte books and authors…
okay folks, nope bag is empty for now. gotta go restock.
Actually, it is Labor Day so get your rear-ends to a bbque.
Enjoy the day.
September 7th, 2009 at 2:23 pmarco says:
Of course I am you are just too stupid to understand sense. I am making good points that zoom over your head like a vapor trail. You are a moron. Its that simple. The fact I cant dumb my posts down enough for someone as stupid as you to understand them doesnt mean I need a new learning curve it means you are stupid and need someone NOT a moron who SPEAKS moron to explain them to you
September 7th, 2009 at 2:25 pmArco seems to think most of us need an education. He’s citing something called “The PNC Financial Services Group, Inc.” and it’s annual “wealth survey” to say 69% of wealth is not inherited.
Oh, oh, if you go check this B.S. out you’ll find it’s an on-line survey (strike one!), it’s run by a Wall Street financial firm (strike two!) and, it relies on participants to tell the poll whether they got their wealth by working or inheritance (strike three! you’re outta there!)
Get serious, Arco.
September 7th, 2009 at 2:26 pmI don’t think people are born smarter than others.
September 7th, 2009 at 2:26 pm—
Did they not offer any genetics courses at that college of yours?
NinerFan says:
Get serious, Arco.
September 7th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
Get real, NinerFan. :D
September 7th, 2009 at 2:27 pmarco says:
Ok arco. Good riddence you were too stupid to actually contribute anyway. You are stupid and selfish and just as oblivious to morality and compassion as all you Ebenezer Scrooge worshippers are.
September 7th, 2009 at 2:27 pmarco,
I really feel for ya. Really. To have to spend so much of your life thinking and studying about the disgusting whorporations and their machinations to subvert the Constitution to better their’s and your own self-interest, now I see why you are such a scumsucking parasite on humanity.
Tsk, tsk, tsk, and your Judeo-Chrisian beliefs say what again about not giving a rat’s ass about your fellow man? None of you traitors did answer me yesterday.
September 7th, 2009 at 2:27 pmMy family was lower middle class. My dad lost his job a lot and wasn’t the best role model. We ate spaghetti a lot. Noodles and a little tomato sauce. Sometimes we didn’t have sauce, just noodles.
I went to college, and read a lot of books.
—
September 7th, 2009 at 2:29 pmWere they all Horatio Alger books? By the way he was way gay…
#174, you looking for fiction or non-fiction?
For fiction, Dan Brown’s new book is coming out pretty quick. I like his other books (if you haven’t checked those out).
For non-fiction, Empire of Debt is a good one.
Investing related, everyone should start with John Bogle’s Common Sense on Mutual Funds. Another good one is Stocks for the Long Run by Jeremy Siegal. Against the Gods, the Remarkable Story of Risk is a good one. Die Broke was a fun read. And The Millionaire Mind or The Millionaire Next Door.
Cheers.
September 7th, 2009 at 2:29 pmHealth care costs are going up because of supply-demand.
No, health care costs are going up because people like you think that our health care is something that can be bought and sold for profit.
Where you go wrong is in your belief that the goal of any health care system is to make someone (preferably you, in your world) a lot of money. It shouldn’t be, though it is in our country.
Like many other liberals, I believe that the primary goal of a health care delivery system should be to see that the public is healthy, not that someone gets rich off it. As long as people who think like you do have a voice in crafting the solution, the problem will continue to exist. (And it will continue to exist primarily because of people like you who think there is nothing wrong with the system.)
Can’t doing something simply because it is the right and humane thing to do ever be a good enough reason for conservatives to support something? Or does it always have to be about making money?
September 7th, 2009 at 2:31 pm#181, you mean I could’ve been watching TV instead all these years? Wow, maybe I have wasted my time! Maybe then I’d know more about this Tila Tequila person instead of how the markets work.
September 7th, 2009 at 2:32 pmSo ARCO…why is it that all other countries insure ALL their citizens for about Half the $$$ that is spent in America.
Maybe because…
..The Medical Providers are for profit, but the Insurance is NOT
…all their citizens have regular access to a primary care physician, spotting problems Early so they are cheaper to treat.
….they do NOT spend 20 cents on the dollar pushing paper, and challenging Payouts
….they buy drugs and medical equipment in Bulk..getting the best prices
September 7th, 2009 at 2:33 pmhey! how ’bout those FAFSA forms, arco?
September 7th, 2009 at 2:33 pmThe people in these town halls screaming that the US doesn’t need to take care of our people are wrong on many levels.
The one that doesn’t seem to get much attention is compassion. When they see their neighbor evicted due to medical bankruptcy, do they feel compassion? When they see vets come back from the wars that didn’t need to be fought living under bridges, do they feel anything? When they see elderly people eating dog food, what?
Compassion is dead in America. It truly is, we have devolved to a state of barbaric violence, winner take all, the weak shall perish and the strong will do a gloating touch-down dance on their bodies.
Oddly, the town hall disruptors who are NOT plants are in grave danger of being crushed by the machine they seem to be defending. It would be some kind of justice to see this happen, but even they shouldn’t have to face it. For each person who lives on the street, in a jail cell, in a shelter, sick, hungry, without meds, diminishes the stature of “the greatest nation on earth”.
We’re a mask of what we think we are.
-Wexler
September 7th, 2009 at 2:34 pmarco says:
I don’t think people are born smarter than others.
I know for a fact that you’re wrong about that.
September 7th, 2009 at 2:35 pmarco says:
For fiction YOU should try the Dispossessed by Ursela Le Guin for non fiction try either Deterring Democracy or Profits over people by Noam Chomsky. You will still be too stupid to understand them but they at least have the potential to cut into your ignorance some.
September 7th, 2009 at 2:37 pm#184, I’m not sure you’re looking at the big picture. Insurance profits are a small part of the total costs. You have doctor and nurse wages, you have building and facilities, you have equipment costs, and then you have medication costs. Probably more, but lets streamline it.
We subsidize medicine for the world. We pay the R&D and sell the drugs cheaper to other countries. Should we jack up the costs to Canada, et al, to lower our costs?
What about doctors and nurses salaries? A nurse right out of college can make nearly $100K here in CA. That adds up.
Anyways, now you want to add 47 million people to the system without increasing nurses, doctors, facilities, equipment, pharmaceuticals, etc.
Just a simple ECON 1A problem there. Things won’t work as they currently do when demand increases by 47 million bodies. Something has to give in supply and cost.
September 7th, 2009 at 2:37 pmWayne A. Schneider says:
arco says:
I don’t think people are born smarter than others.
I know for a fact that you’re wrong about that.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Of COURSE he is. That is a given but why should THAT be any different from everything else he posts?
September 7th, 2009 at 2:39 pmarco is the banned troll tracy_5
arco if you can’t take the time to actually copy someones statement then don’t expect us to scroll up and down the page to accomodate your slovenly, lazy behavior.
September 7th, 2009 at 2:39 pmDan Brown’s books are crap.
September 7th, 2009 at 2:40 pmDaddy-O,
Who appointed you board monitor?
Reading your posts I must say that you come across as awfully conceited, how about a little humility you windbag
September 7th, 2009 at 2:42 pmarco says:
You are still a liar and a fool. We do NOT subsidize drugs for the rest of the world. Other countries ALSO create new drugs those same countries that also provide their citizens healthcare. Also we SUBSIDIZE with our tax dollars the creation of new Drugs with the NIH anyway so it is a bad argument. As usual you spew the talking points you have been programmed with but dont really know what you are talking about
September 7th, 2009 at 2:43 pmThis statement right here distills the stupidity of arco.
Social spending by the government enters the economic stream. It generates further economic activity all along the path.
War spending, especially for foreign wars like Iraq, mostly gets dumped in the middle of the desert. Practically no ROI whatsoever.
But for some reason, “social spending is what is driving the country bankrupt”.
What an unreflective tool.
September 7th, 2009 at 2:45 pmWow, some people are more intelligent than others. You just proved how dumb you are.
I don’t even think you are looking at the front of the picture.
September 7th, 2009 at 2:46 pmFor fiction, Dan Brown’s new book is coming out pretty quick.
September 7th, 2009 at 2:48 pm—
Do you also drive slow and safe? So so far we can rule out English and science majors…
hey! how ’bout those FAFSA forms, arco?
don’t be embarrassed about it…
it’s ok to have and get financial help… though it seems wasted on you,
September 7th, 2009 at 2:48 pmyou selfish ignoramous…
ralph the wonder llama says:
What an unreflective tool.
September 7th, 2009 at 2:45 pm
But not brain-washed. Nope.
September 7th, 2009 at 2:49 pmOT
September 7th, 2009 at 2:50 pmZooey
I am in need of your excellent advice once again…
And you are just another known troll who pretends to be a progressive. What you think really doesn’t matter here.
September 7th, 2009 at 2:51 pmBanks are still holding trillions, over 600 trillion, in derivatives gambles off the books.
This is Arco ideology. Making money by doing nothing more than gambling. Money is GOD to them.
September 7th, 2009 at 2:54 pm20% of each premium dollar is a small part of a dollar?
September 7th, 2009 at 2:56 pmMy family was lower middle class.
So you were born white.
My dad lost his job a lot and wasn’t the best role model.
At least you had a dad phucktard.
We ate spaghetti a lot. Noodles and a little tomato sauce. Sometimes we didn’t have sauce, just noodles.
Cry baby. Some people just eat saltines and water.
I went to college, and read a lot of books.
Since you were lower middle class someone else paid.
I don’t think people are born smarter than others.
That proves you are stupid to the core. Why are there IQ test? And some go to college and others don’t get in.
I believe hard work and determination are the driving factors.
As long as you are not injured
September 7th, 2009 at 3:02 pmor
come down with illness
or
become crippled
or
robbed by corporate scumbags
or
shot on duty while serving in the military or local police force
or
a victim of domestic violence or rape
or
hung by racist KKK members
or
never buried a child killed by a drunk driver
or
never lost your life savings to a scumbag banker
or
falsely imprisoned due to race
or
kicked to the curb by racist peckerwoods
or
conned by a scumbag preacher
or
sent to a mental institute
or
beaten down by a domestic partner
or
etc., goddamed etc., goddamed etc.
arco: “I’m not sure you’re looking at the big picture. Insurance profits are a small part of the total costs.”
OK, this guy is just jerking chains. The three most profitable businesses in America today are the Insurance industry, the Banking industry and Pharmaceutical. People keep pointing out William Maguire, the CEO of one of the nation’s largest HMO’s, who took home a one-year payout of $1.3 BILLION. And, we all know that it’s been the premiums on the rise, not the cost of a Doctor visit.
September 7th, 2009 at 3:03 pmWhat Dixie Blood said!
September 7th, 2009 at 3:05 pmXisithus: “This is Arco ideology. Making money by doing nothing more than gambling. Money is GOD to them.”
Capital is the beginning and end of the equation. There is no concept of labor being necessary to create capital. It’s the modern economic insanity that’s gotten us where we are today. You don’t have to manufacture anything. You just move paper around to create more money with no associated goods or services to add to the economy. It’s a massive shell game and ponzi scheme.
September 7th, 2009 at 3:09 pmNinerFan, when I first met my wife her father asked me what I do for a living. At the time I was a union pipefitter, an honerable living.
He was disgusted and informed me that diswashers work, washing machines work, etc.
He died soon so I didn’t have to live with his condescention for a lifetime, thank god.
September 7th, 2009 at 3:12 pmarco says:
“…So I buy disability insurance…”
September 7th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
Hmm, I don’t know how it works in your state, but in NY employers must carry disability coverage. Unfortunately, that coverage only kicks in after two weeks of illness/disability, and even then it only covers 60% of one’s salary. So unless your illness/disability lasts longer than two weeks, you’re pretty much scrod. In the 16 years that I have worked for my employer, I have had to use all of my sick and personal time, plus vacation time, for 6 of those years, due to: breaking a wrist in a car accident; breaking an elbow in a fall; three individual episodes of pneumonia; and complications after minor surgery. In most of those cases, even though I came back to work after two weeks, I had to take additional time off either for PT or, in the pneumonia cases, due to simple exhaustion. Disability insurance never kicked in for any of these. Even if it had, 60% wouldn’t have paid the bills.
I’m curious, how much do you pay for your “disability insurance”, and how much does it cover?
September 7th, 2009 at 3:15 pmWhat the hell do you mean?I have always gotten good advice from that source…
September 7th, 2009 at 3:15 pmI agree. Bernanke has talked about how he can just press some keys and create an accounting entry worth whatever he wants. He did no work, created no widgets, created no jobs, built no factories. And with this money creation and deregulation the gamblers have license to print more money even though they know it will create inflation which robs people of their wealth [Arco doesnt seem to comprehend how inflation robs wealth, to him its a profit and therefore its good that people get poorer thru this dubious debasement of our currency]
September 7th, 2009 at 3:18 pmI hear you, Fred. There’s a great, but rather long article in I think yesterday’s NYT by Krugman on the crazy economics of the last few decades and in it, he details the disdain for labor and workers, especially union workers, that is a huge part of modern conservative economic thinking. They’ve actually fostered a disrespect for hard work in this country while telling everyone that they are hard workers.
September 7th, 2009 at 3:19 pmXisithrus, at least Bernanke is a neo-Keynsean and not really one of the completely insane ones. He may just be partially insane which could be marginally better.
September 7th, 2009 at 3:22 pmBernanke must have married into the insiders club…
September 7th, 2009 at 3:28 pmI think the disdain is feigned, created rather, by these folks and a good part of working class republicans fall into this myth that labor is keeping prices high.
After they knock union wages down they will go after other groups and associations that keep wages up. Its a self-defeating thing because as people make less and wages cannot not keep up with inflation, fewer and fewer will be able to buy products and Humpty Dumpty will have shoved fragile self off the wall.
I think we are entering that era.
September 7th, 2009 at 3:38 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
kwsventures says:
cite your sources or your are plagerizing, it’s criminal. Who was it? Beck?
a republican is a man with two perfectly good legs that refuses to walk forward. FDR
September 7th, 2009 at 3:48 pmDr Venture says the same stupid thing he has said ten time before because he is a stupid moron incapable of thinking for himself and because he cant help being anything but an ignorant pile of dogshit and a punkass troll
“The modern conservative is engaged in one of man’s oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.”
That describes you. A selfish ignorant piece of garbage
September 7th, 2009 at 3:49 pm“The modern conservative is engaged in one of man’s oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.”
John Kenneth Galbraith
lopped off the citation
September 7th, 2009 at 3:50 pmNinerFan says:
I find it amusing that conservatives view unions as corrupt and powerful organizations, but cannot make that same conclusion about corporations. The conservatives like to imbue the “free market” with god-like aspect that is good for the US and ignore the bad things that have occurred because of corporations. Enron is just one example. Conservatives refuse to acknowledge that there are “evils” that are created by the free market and that the government needs to keep these things in check.
September 7th, 2009 at 3:55 pmBut was that a real town hall? I don’t believe that whole town is represented by those selfish people.
September 7th, 2009 at 3:55 pmExactly, after all, unions sign contracts with companies and the companies have to sign it too. It is business.
September 7th, 2009 at 4:02 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
Actually ar co hers is a breakdown of the costs under a private healthcare insuance system.
http://masscare.org/health-care-costs/overhead-costs-of-health-care/
My other point is that you are a very poor “buisness person” since you are not wholeheartedly interested in how to reduce your healthcare costs even further. This should be the driving force behind your supposed self-developed money. You should be looking for every way to do as the coporations do…distribute your liability to the public while keeping your profits privatized.
September 7th, 2009 at 4:09 pmWith all that reading you didn;t learn anything, tsk, tsk, tsk.
Dr Venture you ignorant punkass troll. Do you post all your stupid trollturds in multiple threads? Isnt enough to show how ignorant and brainwashed you are in one thread? You are stupid and you posting BS from biased market sites only show how gullible and easily programmed you are. This is a market site, not in any way credible or unbiased. Based on BS from the AEI. No one here is going to take it or you seriously. Just STFU until you grow enough of a brain to contribute to an adult conversation
September 7th, 2009 at 4:13 pmLet me post an article by Foxes about who is best qualified to gaurd henhouses
September 7th, 2009 at 4:14 pmkwsventures flagged for spamming. You posted your bogus link to an investment site with connections to the American Enterprise Institute on the other thread.
It’s not credible, it means nothing and you are an evil un-American.
September 7th, 2009 at 4:15 pmFrom: http://masscare.org/health-care-costs/overhead-costs-of-health-care/
Hospital and Physician Overhead
Hospitals and physicians by virtue of having to deal with dozens of private insurance companies, as well as many individuals who have to be billed directly for care uncovered by insurance, incur enormous overhead expenses. The result is a large billing department at every hospital and, far more importantly, an enormous percentage of every physician, nurse, and technician’s time lost to paperwork.
The waste incurred by a commercial insurance system even at the level of health providers is vividly portrayed by a comparison of overhead expenses for hospitals and physicians in the United States versus Canada. Remember, Canada does not have “socialized medicine” – hospitals and physicians are privately owned and run – these costs are incurred solely by the insurance system.
September 7th, 2009 at 4:18 pmTom Coburn has a failing grade
September 7th, 2009 at 4:21 pmYep, we survived without a lot of things that we have now. You just prove the adage about republicans wanting to take us back to the stone ages. Aren’t you proud?
September 7th, 2009 at 4:21 pmWe are in an era of Moral Turpitude. That is what the GOP have created over the last 12 years.
September 7th, 2009 at 4:21 pmFred says:
Not to mention that everyone did NOT survive. Those 18,000 Americans per year who DIE from lack of access to healthcare didnt survive. Dr Venture proves also that he is a sick depraved piece of shite that doesnt care in the least about Americans because he is a selfish weasel who only cares about rich peoples money
September 7th, 2009 at 4:30 pmfred, that would be g.gordon liddy… a CRIMINAL!
ah hahahahaha!
great role model there…
September 7th, 2009 at 4:33 pmHey Everybody! Let’s quit our jobs and INVEST MONEY! Then we can all be rich. Because money makes money. Yeah—that’s how the economy works, ya see—MONEY is the key to EVERYTHING.
September 7th, 2009 at 4:33 pmkwsventures: “The medical expenses bankruptcy myth. It gets bigger and bigger everyday. The numbers show otherwise. It is all B.S., of course.”
Einstein here is basing his “conclusion” on an article that looks at bankruptcies in the 2000 to 20002 period and concludes that about half didn’t involve medical costs. As the great man pretends not to notice, health insurance premiums have tripled or quadrupled since 2002.
Veeeeerrrry convincing, Dr. Venture.
September 7th, 2009 at 4:38 pmkwsventures: “Somehow we have survived 233 years as a nation without mandated health insurance. Amazing.”
Irrelevant. The question is not mandated health insurance. It’s universal health care coverage. The Founders themselves wanted to set up a government run system for veterans. Democrats have been advocating universal healthcare since the 30’s. We’ve had a single-payer plan for seniors for 45 years and virtually nobody on the plan wants to go back to private plans.
September 7th, 2009 at 4:42 pmRe: arco. Isn’t it interesting how so many of the trolls here claim to be wealthy? I can’t recall all of their names, but there was a birther troll with his own airplane, another with his own yacht, a Texan who supposedly attends and has a say at “Mobile(SIC) Oil” stockholder meetings, etc.
September 7th, 2009 at 6:35 pmSomeone please tell me why we need to overhaul the whole system ?
If the A/C goes down in your house do you tear down the whole house and rebuild ?
I agree it needs a lot of work, but to Overhaul ? Please tell me how that makes sense.
September 7th, 2009 at 8:39 pmBabeuary says:
Because it is fundamentally broken. 18,000 Americans per year DIE because of how it is broken. No other industrial country lets their citizens DIE by the tens of thousands per year to protect the profits and priveledges of wealthy elites and corporations
September 7th, 2009 at 8:45 pmOh, okay, I guess we’re playing this game on tHIS thread instead of on the Kingston thread. So here’s what I posted on that thread:
Yes. As Eugene says, the system is fundamentally broken.
The free market approach doesn’t work properly for health care, since demand does not respond dynamically to price. Demand for health care is what it is. It doesn’t increase when prices are low nor decrease when prices are high, as classic capitalistic markets are supposed to do.
Thus there is no downward pressure on prices once they reach a certain plateau. Pricesa are not checked by falling demand, so they just keep on rising until the system can no longer sustain itself. I fear we are approaching that crisis point.
September 7th, 2009 at 8:48 pmDr. Coburn is correct.
I can’t expect compassion from him.
He saves that for his C-street philandering cult.
WWJD?
September 7th, 2009 at 9:32 pmNot be a heartless A-hole.
Well, first off it wouldnt be one AC per house, but one AC unit for many houses. The AC unit would be repaired by a pool of money all the home owners put into for upkeep and maintenance of said AC unit.
They are not talking about overhauling health care and have people go to government doctors and buildings. What does need reform is health insurance because its becoming so expensive people cant afford it.
Back to the AC unit. The pool in one system uses public funds to fill the maintenance pool for needed AC repairs in the future. Everyone chips in. The money stays in the pool and once it reaches the cost of replacing the AC unit doesnt need any more money into the pool at this time. Your monthly AC maintenance fee drops consideraly or all together as deemed prudent.
Another system, just like the one above has a difference. Their AC miantenance pool is run by a private coporation. A middleman. He takes a premium from all the tenants every month whether the AC breaks or not. The middleman decides he like to play with your pool of money and goes gambling with it. He loses. To make up his loss he raises your AC maint. rates, and deductibles again and again. Eventually your paying twice what you used to and the AC hasnt broken down. Eventually you cant afford the payments anymore and you have to tell the middleman to take a hike, leaving your AC repair pool depleted.
You enriched a joker that did nothing but raise your costs for his gambling habits.
The house doesnt need tearing down and the AC isnt broke. Its the middleman thats the cause of all the price increases because of his gambling habits who owes the bookies [Investors]
Thats a rather simple view but you get the idea I hope.
September 7th, 2009 at 9:42 pmBabauary: “Someone please tell me why we need to overhaul the whole system ?”
Good question!
1. We spend over twice as much PER PERSON on health care than the average per person cost of all other industrial nations.
2. The cost of health insurance premiums has been rising at a rate 10 to 20 times the inflation rate, tripling in the last 8 years.
3. Our health care system is rated 37th in the world by the World Health Organization.
4. Medical bills are the single biggest reason for personal bankruptcies today.
5. Thousands of Americans die every day for some reason related to lack of access to medical care.
6. We are the only industrialized nation on the planet that doesn’t provide universal health care for its citizens.
7. The crushing cost of our health care system currently hurts the competitiveness of American business.
8. The current system includes hundreds of thousands employed for the express purpose of denying health care.
9. Health care insurance is currently one of the most profitable industries in America. CEO William Maquire received a one-year payout of $1.3 Billion.
I could go on.
September 7th, 2009 at 9:49 pmHere’s another reason: we’ve been running a government-managed single-payer plan for seniors now for 45 years and they love their Medicare because it works. Ask any senior if they’d like to give up their Medicare and go to a “free market” insurance based system.
September 7th, 2009 at 9:53 pmI guess babeuary wasn;t interested in any responses to her question posted on two threads.
I guess she just wanted to drop a mild stink bomb and skeedaddle.
September 7th, 2009 at 10:00 pmThe medicare system has been deliberatly compromised (financially) by medicare part D subsidies and lack of oversight overpayment to hospice, big pharm, and other services.
September 7th, 2009 at 10:36 pmTypical Republican narcissism; corporate opportunist capitalization off of a successful public system, then blame its financial inadequacies on its motive or political theory.
September 7th, 2009 at 11:27 pm
The constitution’s provision I would cite would be
“General Welfare” of the people.
How does this guy justify his salary and benefits and pension for Congressmen? How about he take a 40% cut in pay, let him go get his own health care with nomilitary hospital privileges. Oh, and that evil pension, Well that sounds too union commie to me.
September 7th, 2009 at 11:48 pmC Street talking.
September 8th, 2009 at 9:49 amThe GOP continues to fail to do their homework.
September 8th, 2009 at 11:22 amNote to GOP – read the fine print you wankers, OUR President is also a Constitutional lawyer, if I am not mistaken.
Thank you for your sharing.!
September 11th, 2009 at 2:41 pm