Pacific Gas & Electric Company Leaves U.S. Chamber of Commerce Over Its Global Warming Denialism
Pacific Gas & Electric Company Leaves U.S. Chamber of Commerce Over Its Global Warming Denialism
One of the biggest opponents of climate change legislation has been the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, the “world’s largest business federation” that calls itself the “voice of business.” The Chamber has claimed the Obama administration is secretly hiding evidence that climate change isn’t a real threat, claimed that global warming regulations would “strangle the economy,” and even called for a new “Scopes trial” to call into question the science of global warming.
Today, Pacific Gas and Electric Company (PG&E) announced that it is quitting the Chamber over its “extreme position” on climate change:
PG&E Corp. (PCG) said Tuesday it is leaving the U.S. Chamber of Commerce over objections to what its top executive called the chamber’s “extreme position on climate change.”
In a letter to the U.S. Chamber published on PG&E’s blog, www.next100.com, PG& E Chairman and Chief Executive Peter Darbee wrote that company employees “find it dismaying that the Chamber neglects the indisputable fact that a decisive majority of experts have said the data on global warming are compelling and point to a threat that cannot be ignored.”
PG&E isn’t the only company the Chamber has angered with its global warming denialist views. Yesterday, Nike, one of the co-founders of the climate change action coalition Business for Innovative Climate & Energy Policy (BICEP), circulated a statement denouncing the Chamber’s efforts to attack the science surrounding climate change:
Nike fundamentally disagrees with the US Chamber of Commerce’s position on climate change and is concerned and deeply disappointed with the US Chamber’s recently filed petition challenging the EPA’s administrative authority and action on this critically important issue.
Nike believes that climate change is an urgent issue affecting the world today and that businesses and their representative associations need to take an active role to invest in sustainable business practices and innovative solutions to address the issue. It is not a time for debate but instead a time for action and we believe the Chamber’s recent petition sets back important work currently being undertaken by EPA on this issue.
The right-wing trade organization National Association of Manufacturers has similarly experienced a disbandment of its membership over the climate change issue. It remains to be seen whether the discontent among their members will change these organizations’ extremist views on global warming.
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Brilliant, hooray!
I think we’ve been talking here about how the USCS has been failing to serve the interests of its membership. More of them should walk away until they realize they’re not supposed to be a partisan organization.
September 22nd, 2009 at 5:42 pm***
this is big.
pg&e is one the nation’s biggest energy suppliesr.
their defection could dealer a crippling blow to the “chamber”.
:)
September 22nd, 2009 at 5:43 pmBig Business will go gonzo on Global Warming when they realize they can make big bucks off it.
September 22nd, 2009 at 5:45 pmThe right-wing trade organization National Association of Manufacturers has similarly experienced a disbandment of its membership over the climate change issue.
They’re gonna need a name change, if this keeps up.
Something like “National Association of Ostriches.”
September 22nd, 2009 at 5:46 pmCNG produces half the carbon emmissions of gas, and will be the fuel of choice in the coming decade for power generation, whether these Luddites are on board or not.
September 22nd, 2009 at 5:49 pmI wonder if these are the same dicks that make my electric bill among the highest in the nation.
September 22nd, 2009 at 5:50 pmi like seeing a jaded status quo trip over its own feet of clay.
more fun that watching puppies chase squirrels, even!!
September 22nd, 2009 at 5:51 pmMy mom will be happy to hear this, she gets energy from them.
September 22nd, 2009 at 5:52 pmYeah, just looked it up, Southern CA Edison buys (all or in part) it’s electricity from PG&E – then passes it on to my business where we pay the highest electrical rates in the country.
I had a disagreement with Edison a few weeks ago. They were still chargeing me the same extortion rates as usual even though our largest industrial machine had been off line for over a month (for service).
It got heated and I said “you guys charge the highest rates in the country.” The rep got pretty mad and said “we do not.”
Then I told him I had checked and his companys rates wer #1. Then he say’s we aren’t, the rates are higher in Hawaii.
What a joke. Legalized theft.
September 22nd, 2009 at 5:55 pmThere could be a financial motivation behind PG&E’s opposition to the Chamber of Commerce:
http://money.cnn.com/2008/05/30/news/economy/gunther_legislation.fortune/index.htm
September 22nd, 2009 at 5:56 pmThere could be a financial motivation behind PG&E’s opposition to the Chamber of Commerce:
Yeah, continued denial of climate change is gonna cost them (and the rest of us) a TON of money.
Financial motivation? You bet.
September 22nd, 2009 at 5:58 pmI am surprised more members have not left over the chamber’s absurd stance on health care. It is easy for a single issue group like the NRA to advocate extreme positions but most multi-industry groups at least make an effort to balance the competing interests of its members. Wonder how much they need to lose in dues payments before the ideologues get thrown out.
September 22nd, 2009 at 6:06 pmWhy am I not surprised that the Reichwhiners don’t see this for what it is? This is a perfect example of the “free market” taking the lead. If these companies had made the opposite decision the trolls would be gloating.
Alas, they are so politicized that they can’t afford to see the truth or their entire fantasy would crash around their ears.
And, b-kup? Of course there’s a profit motive. There’s profit to be made with green energy and production techniques. And there’s an advertising value in supporting green initiatives because most of us sane folk want the human race to face the future without the burden of a toxic planet.
September 22nd, 2009 at 6:07 pmGood for you for taking a stand!! I wonder what the US Chamber would do if every one left enmasse? These jokers must have their collective heads up their collective butts. How can any sane person deny global warming. IT doesn’t matter what the cause, it is happening and we need to face the music. Better sooner then later.
September 22nd, 2009 at 6:08 pmHave to agree with him on this one. Al “Global something” Bore is such a charlatan.
Yeah… the article actually talks about how Clinton thought Gore was ‘in Neverland’ for being ‘morally’ opposed to Clinton’s help during the 2000 campaign!
What a joke you are!
September 22nd, 2009 at 6:09 pm***
#12,
if you say so.
:)
September 22nd, 2009 at 6:09 pm***
#16,
bel,
the joke’s on him.
pg&e’s left the “chamber”.
and the best he can do is a misleading link.
:)
September 22nd, 2009 at 6:12 pmCan’t people see the big picture? If we continue to pollute the planet, We will ALL suffer. Unless the Rich Zealots who have all the power have they’re own rocket ships and alternate planets or a friggin Space Station they are all doomed along with us. Mother Nature won’t play favorites. Killer Hurricanes, Global Warming (Those poor Polar Bears!) Severe droughts…. When will these denyers see the loght?
September 22nd, 2009 at 6:13 pmThe rats continue to abandon the sinking ship that is Republican philosophy.
September 22nd, 2009 at 6:14 pmSilly troll: “Al “Global something” Bore is such a charlatan.”
Right. Other than that Nobel Prize and that Academy Award, what’s he ever accomplished?
September 22nd, 2009 at 6:14 pm#12
Done.
You brought a good idea to the table and then we all voted for it.
September 22nd, 2009 at 6:15 pmbackup says:
There could be a financial motivation behind PG&E’s opposition to the Chamber of Commerce:
I’m pretty sure there’s a marketing motivation as well. At some point soon they’re going to want to be able to advertise themselves as “green,” and/or trumpet their alternative energy initiatives. If they’re associated with a group which is making blatantly false claims about energy, then any such marketing campaign they do is going to go the way of the Clean Coal Carolers (remember them?) They just can’t afford to be associated with that much stupid.
But either way, when an energy company ditches your business coalition because of its stance on energy, you’re definitely doing something wrong.
September 22nd, 2009 at 6:32 pmI find it interesting that such a large proportion of deniers are eagerly awaiting the Rapture. While it’s excusable to allow such a Belief to color one’s views on Man’s relative importance it should also excuse one from public debate. I refuse to allow those who don’t Believe in the future a voice in planning the future.
September 22nd, 2009 at 6:35 pmElBruce says:
and besides… wouldn’t a ‘financial motive’ just be that ‘invisible hand’ of the market hard at work?
September 22nd, 2009 at 6:36 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
Well good for Pacific G&E. Now let’s see how many insurance companies leave the Chamber in protest of their position on health care reform. Any chance?
September 22nd, 2009 at 6:44 pmI suppose it would be pointless to ask that run away pussy conservative guy what his science credentials are…
September 22nd, 2009 at 6:50 pmI tried this global warming experiment for myself. I stood in my back yard and exhaled carbon dioxide for three hours with routine breaks, set off fireworks, and released a pack of balloons in the air, and guess what libs, the high for the day was still 95 degrees. It didn’t get one degree hotter that day, proving global warming is a hoax.
September 22nd, 2009 at 6:51 pmI may not like the stupid trolls but I have to give them credit when they completely discredit themselves in the first post. Thanks, stupid troll.
September 22nd, 2009 at 6:51 pmIf we have one cold day this winter that will further prove global warming to be a hoagie.
September 22nd, 2009 at 6:52 pmconservative guy says:
Global warming is junk science.
We both like our SUVs. And if it feels good, you know there are no negative effects.
September 22nd, 2009 at 6:53 pmzuma58 says:
Well good for Pacific G&E. Now let’s see how many insurance companies leave the Chamber in protest of their position on health care reform. Any chance?
It may seem like a pipe-dream but, why not? I would think that an insurer could get some business by supporting reform and pledging coverage that will meet new guidelines. People would be reassured that their insurance won’t change and their company is actually working to make their service better.
September 22nd, 2009 at 6:54 pmI ripped my own Pacific Gas and it didn’t cause global warming. I know how to conduct my own research, learned it from Mattel.
September 22nd, 2009 at 6:56 pmThings have gotten so bad in this country that the voices on the right condemn innovation in their mad quest to create some kind of Stepford/Buybull fantasy. Someone could invent the proverbial “car that runs on water” and the Reichwhiners would condemn it via some bizarre guilt by association with Al Gore.
September 22nd, 2009 at 7:00 pmConservative Guy said,
What if you are wrong? Should every human being on the planet have to die because you are wrong and failed to do something about climate change now?
If you are right, we waste a bunch of money, but no harm done. If you are wrong, the human species goes extinct. It’s just to bad that the climate change deniers won’t die first.
September 22nd, 2009 at 7:04 pmHe volunteered to go to Nam because he came from a small town and didn’t want anyone else he knew to take his place.
He served in the Congress for years.
The real “Father of the Internet,” Vincent Cerf credited him for being the legislator that did the most to build the internet.
He became Vice President of the U.S. and ran a program that reduced the size of the federal government by cutting waste.
He authored an anti-terror set of proposals, any of which if followed would have prevented the attack on 9-11.
He received an Academy Award for his documentary film.
He received the Nobel Peace Prize.
He personally took two commercial jets to pick up refugees in New Orleans during Katrina.
He runs a bunch of non-profit public interest groups…
The silly troll who loves Beck and Limbaugh says: “Al “Global something” Bore is such a charlatan.”
Can you understand why thinking people see you as silly, troll?
September 22nd, 2009 at 7:11 pmKudos to PG&E. Who would have imagined?
September 22nd, 2009 at 7:16 pmPG&E you are welcome to the fold.
September 22nd, 2009 at 7:17 pmThe vast majority demand that something be done NOW, in order to save our Planet.
Even if they have an ulterior motive, i.e. green energy, they are more then welcome
Here in Colorado Springs, it is now 49 degrees and maybe some snow tonight, on the 1st day of fall. Where is the global warming?
September 22nd, 2009 at 7:50 pmRemember, global warming should be based on facts, not opinion. There are now some supporters of Al Gore who are saying we may be heading to global cooling. Which is it? I don’t know.
No one ever said global climate ment warming everywhere and try not to confuse weather with climate. Does that help?
September 22nd, 2009 at 7:57 pm88 degrees here just west of seattle.
not seasonable, mr. clem.
“the world” is a lot bigger place than you think.
start paying attention, and you’ll be caught saying a lot less stupid stuff.
September 22nd, 2009 at 8:05 pmblclem: “Here in Colorado Springs, it is now 49 degrees and maybe some snow tonight, on the 1st day of fall. Where is the global warming?”
Anyone who begins a question on the issue of global warming with an observation on their own local weather simply doesn’t get it or is just pretending not to get it. Which do you think it is, blclem? Ignorance or willful ignorance?
September 22nd, 2009 at 8:06 pmtombaker says:
88 degrees here just west of seattle.
You’re just west of seattle?
Well now we’ve got to get those t-shirts made up! I’m in Seattle.
September 22nd, 2009 at 8:08 pmMr. Gore was/is the messenger. It is the trained scientists that you might want to consult rather than “supporters” of Mr Gore. You might also consider looking at permafrost, ice core, oceanographic, atmospheric, and species distribution data. That new Northwest channel is sort of intriguing as well…
September 22nd, 2009 at 8:08 pmblclem mentions that it’s cold in his local area as an indication that warming isn’t occurring.
I don’t think a local observation is an accurate measure of global warming, but warming proponents often do the same thing.
I live near Atlanta and we had a significant drought two years ago. It was evidence given by proponents of climate change:
http://climateprogress.org/2007/10/17/southeast-drought-global-warming-media/
We no longer have drought conditions and the lakes have filled back up.
I imagine those who proclaimed the drought evidence of warming probably won’t chime in with a correction any time soon.
With the recent flooding in Atlanta, the predictions of catastrophe by drought will only be replaced with new, even more dire predictions of catastrophe by flood.
September 22nd, 2009 at 8:11 pmdbadass: “That new Northwest channel is sort of intriguing as well…”
Why do they even argue anymore? It’s just butt-ugly stupid. Is there even an example in all of human history of ships being able to make that route they made last week? It’s ridiculous. The deniers should just shut the hell up. They’re pathetic tools.
September 22nd, 2009 at 8:12 pmbackup says:
Sure. And again, if that was the ONLY evidence it would be a pretty flimsy case.
That is not the only evidence.
Stop pretending that it is.
September 22nd, 2009 at 8:13 pmbelaccifer – there ahave been times whe i’ve thought everone on here is probably somewhere between Portland and Bellingham.
sure is nice being all set up in the bluest of the blue states, though lately i’ve had wingnuts at my post office waving cardboard signs with paranoid slogans scrawled on them.
i always give them a big smile and 2 thumbs up, and a friendly “hey wingnuts – how ya doin’?”
maybe they’d buy a couple of those t’s?
September 22nd, 2009 at 8:14 pmI think these folks just see a potential boom in rowboat sales. You wouldn’t deny a guy his right to make a living?
September 22nd, 2009 at 8:14 pmNinerFan. If the Arctic ice is receding due to the warming, wouldn’t it make sense that the Antarctic ice would also be receding? Same planet.
September 22nd, 2009 at 8:15 pmbackup says:
NinerFan. If the Arctic ice is receding due to the warming, wouldn’t it make sense that the Antarctic ice would also be receding? Same planet.
http://scienceblogs.com/illconsidered/2006/02/antarctic-ice-is-growing.php
ASKED and ANSWERED backup. If you have a climatologist with a different theory then post it… otherwise, stop it.
September 22nd, 2009 at 8:18 pmmaybe they’d buy a couple of those t’s?
I’m telling you, we’d sell out.
September 22nd, 2009 at 8:19 pmWe need to take some up to Glen Beck’s celebration in Mt. Vernon…
backup says:
NinerFan. If the Arctic ice is receding due to the warming, wouldn’t it make sense that the Antarctic ice would also be receding? Same planet.
how many times does this need to be explained to you? God, you’re obtuse.
Antarctic: landbased ice
Arctic: seabased ice
There was a very good description of this at TP within the last few days, and I believe I’ve repeatedly directed you here.
September 22nd, 2009 at 8:21 pmcheck into some basic astronomy. the term you’re looking for is “precession”, and it explains why what you’re asking about isn’t happening.
September 22nd, 2009 at 8:23 pmbelaccifer lacca.
It’s not. But, proponents often unscrupulously latch on to any dynamic in the weather and chalk it up to warming or climate change.
That weakens the rest of the argument.
The weather changes. It’s always been changing. There have been floods and droughts and fires and hurricanes and tornados and on and on, forever.
Using a cycle of rain, or heat, or cold or drought; as evidence of climate change, often backfires when that cycle ends.
Here’s a TP thread from a couple of years ago:
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/12/12/arctic-summers-may-be-ice-free-by-2013/
It seemed dire at the time, but the ice extent has basically recovered to near average levels in the past two years.
The idea gets diluted when either side tries to use short term phenomenon as proof positive.
September 22nd, 2009 at 8:26 pmbackup will you please quite dicking around and either state that you understand the vast consensus of the international science community or that you do not. Don’t bother boring me with the occassional dissenter as we are discussing the overwhelming current thoughts of real scientists rather than cyber crumudgeons…
September 22nd, 2009 at 8:31 pmcount on the trusty captain,
to make a short story long…
hey captain – maybe you should try your hand at writing Classic Russian Literature.
i think you’d be a natural.
September 22nd, 2009 at 8:36 pmdbadass. I’m a skeptic.
September 22nd, 2009 at 8:37 pmreally, backup? Near-average levels of sea ice?
September 22nd, 2009 at 8:37 pm
Conservatism
is junk political science, and a 5th grader could prove it.
September 22nd, 2009 at 8:40 pmoh, there’s a word for it, but “skeptic” is not that word.
September 22nd, 2009 at 8:41 pmbelaccifer lacca says:
and besides… wouldn’t a ‘financial motive’ just be that ‘invisible hand’ of the market hard at work?
Well, a common misconception is that the invisible hand functions to make market behavior ethically OK. All that it actually does is match supply to demand, which is not at all the same thing. However, there’s no magic “hand” out there blessing what essentially amounts to a state of nature into counting as morally or ethically correct. As everybody knows quite well, neither justice nor good results from an anarchic state, whether we’re talking about brute power or economics.
.
conservative guy says:
Global warming is junk science.
The scientific consensus says otherwise.
(ha! it took me only five words to debunk your five words; your “lazy” method is failing…)
.
blclem says:
Here in Colorado Springs, it is now 49 degrees and maybe some snow tonight, on the 1st day of fall. Where is the global warming?
Remember, global warming should be based on facts, not opinion.
The facts regarding average global temperatures have been submitted to you. You didn’t listen. Instead, you used your local temperature at one moment to try to make a global argument. Well in that case, it’s really hot where I live, so your argument is invalid.
Remember, global warming should be based on all the facts, not those you select at will.
.
backup says:
I live near Atlanta and we had a significant drought two years ago. It was evidence given by proponents of climate change:
I would agree that’s a specious argument. But the most persuasive arguments given to explain global warming – especially those put forth by Gore – do not rely on cherry-picked locations or times.
Regarding the deniers, that kind of argument is the only thing they’ve got.
.
pete says:
Someone could invent the proverbial “car that runs on water” and the Reichwhiners would condemn it via some bizarre guilt by association with Al Gore.
First you slander a person, then you can slander everything for which you can draw “a connection to” that person. It’s how they work. Which makes me wonder why they’re on the Internet at all…
.
tombaker says:
belaccifer – there ahave been times whe i’ve thought everone on here is probably somewhere between Portland and Bellingham.
Portland OR, checking in. Cascadia forever!
September 22nd, 2009 at 8:41 pmbackup says:
dbadass. I’m a skeptic.
I appreciate your prompting us to provide the arguments in these threads.
However, if you’re skeptical of global warming at this point, then in order to be intellectually honest you would also have to be skeptical of cell division, gravity, and electromagnetism.
September 22nd, 2009 at 8:43 pmdbadass. I’m a skeptic.
September 22nd, 2009 at 8:44 pm– And you base this skeptism on what expertise? I think it is more that you are just a bored individual that likes to be a contrarian? How does your skeptism explain the multiple government panels, the acknowledgement and strategic planning of the US military, the numerous UN commissions, the countless scientific counsels, and onand on?
contrarian
bingo!!! yahtzee!!! mazeltov!!!!
as in:
Marion, Marion,
quite contrarian,
how the lengths of your comments grow….
September 22nd, 2009 at 8:51 pmBackup reminds me of the movie Groundhog Day.
He wake up every morning and argues the same point day after day after week after month.
He will never admit he was ever wrong. He is however quite effective as a troll and he can con everyone here that he is worth debating.
Backup: someone emailed me a screen shot from another blog yesterday and I had to concur with their opinion that it was very likely written by you.
September 22nd, 2009 at 9:08 pmWhere it was will be our little secret for now.
ElBruce: belaccifer – there ahave been times whe i’ve thought everone on here is probably somewhere between Portland and Bellingham.
Portland OR, checking in. Cascadia forever!
Ditto. Although it’s 88F (down from 91F) on the 22nd of September, which is in my humble opinion, WRONG.
September 22nd, 2009 at 9:13 pmbackup says:
NinerFan. If the Arctic ice is receding due to the warming, wouldn’t it make sense that the Antarctic ice would also be receding? Same planet.
We’ve been over this ground before, b-kup, complete with links to graphs and charts of the three and five year medians dating back to the dawn of the Industrial Age.
Short version:
We are talking global effect and local perturbations are unpredictable and, taken singly, mean little. Plus, “the Antarctic ice is growing” is an over simplification.
The exterior sea ice in Southern latitudes is showing some of the same patterns as Arctic sea ice. It is however, being replaced by increased snow fall. (NOTE: It’s NOT being replaced by more sea ice.) One of the consequences of a warmer atmosphere and oceans is an increase in humidity. That humidity precipitates out under the right conditions and Antarctica, because it’s a cold land mass, is the best place on Earth to make snow.
So you see, b-kup, you argument as just as specious as it was when you tried to draw the same false conclusion from the link you provided then. I didn’t bother bookmarking it because I assumed that you wouldn’t need to have your memory refreshed so soon.
As for this year’s Arctic sea ice? Again, from the link you provided, this past summer saw the third least sea ice on record and was 19% (or 16%) below the average since 1979. Mind you we simply don’t have the satellite data before 1979 so that record could be even worse if anecdotal accounts preceding 1979 are accurate in the conclusion that the arctic ice was already in decline.
Of course, I’ve pointed all this out before. I’m afraid I’ve given up hope of making much impression but I’ll continue to provide data for anyone interested.
September 22nd, 2009 at 9:17 pmgummble-bee-itch says:
Ditto. Although it’s 88F (down from 91F) on the 22nd of September, which is in my humble opinion, WRONG.
I know. It’s supposed to be raining, and I’ve got the fan on instead.
September 22nd, 2009 at 9:21 pmIs this the one, b-kup?
http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2009/20090916_globalstats.html
September 22nd, 2009 at 9:25 pmpete. I understand the warmer water argument. But all the world’s earth would be warmer. And more humid.
I find it difficult to believe that the northern hemisphere humid air wouldn’t produce more snow and yet the southern hemisphere air does.
First of all, you would have to admit that someone without much scientific knowledge would find the argument convenient.
Additionally, I’m under the impression that basically the air is cycled from the equator to the poles.
I would have to look at it, but I don’t think northern hemisphere air cycles to the south and vice versa.
If the water in the southern hemisphere is warming (and causing increased snowfall over Antarctica) isn’t the northern hemisphere water also warming? Wouldn’t that warming result in increased snow or ice in the Northern hemisphere and the Arctic?
September 22nd, 2009 at 9:30 pmall the world’s water.
September 22nd, 2009 at 9:31 pmI get that the snow precipitates over the Antarctic because it’s a cold land mass.
Where does that precipitation occur in the northern hemisphere?
September 22nd, 2009 at 9:32 pmbackup are you skeptical of the governments account of the events of 911? Can we keep it to a simple yes or no? I am trying to access how you come to your skeptism? Thanks
September 22nd, 2009 at 9:35 pmWhat about the citizenship of the president? Are you skeptical of that?
September 22nd, 2009 at 9:37 pmdbadass. not skeptical about 9/11.
not skeptical about President Obama’s citizenship.
September 22nd, 2009 at 9:39 pmCan we also dispense with the fable that curbing pollution will “cost a lot of money”? People tend to forget that innovation brings profit and regulation is needed to curb the greedy.
A perfect example is the humble match. For those unaware of the history, the match made immense fortunes and changed the world. Fire was now instantly accessible rather than a product to be guarded. There was just one problem. People were dying.
It started with the manufacturers, including their children, and later hit the consumer. The red phosphorus used was toxic and resulted in horrible bone diseases among other things. It was realized fairly soon that white phosphorus was a safe alternative but, it was more expensive. The match industry proclaimed that industry would suffer and a new Dark Age would dawn if they were forced to make the switch. This went on for about a hundred effing years while people died rather than pay an extra half-penny per box of matches.
Eventually, red phosphorus matches were widely banned. The term “safety match” is an assurance that one won’t die from a horrible bone disease from striking a match. And it only happened because of effective federal and international regulation.
The same thing has to happen regarding what we burn and why/how we burn it. Until then there are too many people willing to kill their own kin for a half-penny a box.
September 22nd, 2009 at 9:40 pmpete. For example. There is no colder land mass under the arctic ocean (it’s an ocean) but there are cold land masses that border the arctic ocean (northern Canada, Siberia, etc)
If warming water occurs worldwide. And that results in more humid air in both hemispheres, wouldn’t the border areas of the arctic ocean (colder land masses) get increased snowfall and ice extent much like proponents describe happens in Antarctica?
September 22nd, 2009 at 9:44 pmThere is no corresponding land mass in the Arctic. That’s the difference. In the Arctic the snow falls back into a warming sea or onto sea ice or low/small islands instead of a raised land-mass.
Also, it’s a misnomer to assume that “global warming” (an awful term but we’re stuck with it) means “warmer everywhere”. In fact some places have trended cooler while others have trended upwards. Yet the average continues to rise despite record lows in some localities.
September 22nd, 2009 at 9:47 pmI would guess there are plenty of places in the Arctic where local precipitation has gone up. I haven’t actually researched it but I would infer that places with prevailing onshore winds are seeing more precipitation but much of it would be rain and some snowfall would be offset by increased melting. However there’s still no equivalent of Antarctica. It’s several orders of magnitude bigger and also has large areas at relatively high altitude which make it colder still.
I do seem to recall a Nova episode that tracked some growing European glaciers and some in South America. But others in South America are among the most rapidly shrinking on Earth. Once again, one has to take the cumulative average in favor of any particular local anomaly.
September 22nd, 2009 at 9:59 pmOT, but another Portlander here (OR not ME). had never heard of “Cascadia”. Looks interesting.
September 22nd, 2009 at 9:59 pmpete. I respect you because you do a good job of explaining it. What you don’t do is link me to someone that has already produced a list of canned answers to commonly asked questions.
I admit to you that it seems obvious to me you know more about it than I do.
I still find it difficult to believe that the decrease in ice extent in the Arctic is due to the planet warming and the modest increase in ice extent in the Antarctic is also due to the planet warming.
On the surface, it comes of as convenient.
The environment is complex and I am compelled by a preponderance of data that points to warming.
Most of my skepticism is probably based in a belief that there are significant groups that are invested in manmade climate change regardless of whether it’s occurring or not.
I can see the argument that proponents make about those that want to dismiss climate change so they can profit from the status quo. I just also feel that is a counter force that profits from climate change regardless of it’s veracity.
September 22nd, 2009 at 10:00 pmGotta split. I’ll check back in the morning. Thanks.
September 22nd, 2009 at 10:01 pmdbadass. not skeptical about 9/11.
not skeptical about President Obama’s citizenship.
–
September 22nd, 2009 at 10:02 pmOkay then in light of the overwhelming consenus of the international scientific community can you articulate the basis of you climate science skeptism?
If b-kup were not usually polite to me I would have to conclude that he’ll be back with identical arguments on the next global warming thread.
September 22nd, 2009 at 10:07 pmbackup says:
pete. I respect you because you do a good job of explaining it. What you don’t do is link me to someone that has already produced a list of canned answers to commonly asked questions
Pete clearly doesn’t have the same experience of dealing with backup as many others have had. He can afford to be patient, rather than suggesting backup go off and do some real research for a change.
Not everyone wants to hold your hand, backup.
September 22nd, 2009 at 10:12 pmGood for PG&E, I hope more responsible companies will follow suit. Time to stop all the fear mongering from the right and to start to face reality.
September 23rd, 2009 at 12:50 amConservaTROLL
Why havent you killed yourself yet you selfish ignorant pile of dogshit?
September 23rd, 2009 at 1:22 amblclem says:
So what you are saying is you are another brainwashed moron too stupid to tell the difference between weather and climate.
September 23rd, 2009 at 1:23 amconservative guy says:
This comment has been voted down. Click to read.
Global warming is junk science.
Tell it to NASA
September 23rd, 2009 at 1:45 amTo Conservatroll, carbon minoxide doesn’t pollute the air, PCP does not cause cancer and chemicals don’t contaminate the water we drink.
To him it’s environmental enhancement.
Maybe China, who does not have environmental is more suitable to him.
Conservatroll, why have you not left the country you obviously hate so much?
September 23rd, 2009 at 2:13 amMaybe China, who does not have environmental LAWS is more suitable to him.
September 23rd, 2009 at 2:14 amThe US Chamber Of Commerce is one government agency that should be abolished they are just another Corporate defender. They have helped turned our country into the United Corporations Of America.
September 23rd, 2009 at 10:24 amIntrepid says:
Maybe China, who does not have environmental LAWS is more
suitable to him.
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It’s funny you bring that up. On another blog some idiot on the right was saying how Obama’s stiffer tariffs on exported tires from China wouldn’t hurt China…than he went on to rip Obama for being a socialist…
I described China as a country without social security, without medicare, without environmental protections, workers get paid slave wages, banks and corporations don’t get bailed out by the government….than I realized I wasn’t describing China, I was describing the republican state of utopia.
September 23rd, 2009 at 10:29 amFinally, a corporation who listens to science. Now, if we can get PG&E to stop trying to kill California non-profit community electric utilities.
September 23rd, 2009 at 10:45 amWhere is Erin Brockevich when you need her?
September 23rd, 2009 at 11:30 amNice to know…that there are still Conglomerates that have a moral and ethical sense of decency…and will do the right thing.
September 23rd, 2009 at 2:07 pmPerhaps… just perhaps there is a glimmer of hope on the horizon.
The US Chamber of Commerce is a GOP/Corporate tool. I hope other large corporations follow. karin germe
September 28th, 2009 at 11:43 amThank you for your sharing.!
September 29th, 2009 at 7:14 am