Ensign On Why Gun Deaths Shouldn’t Be Factored Into Survival Rates: ‘We Like Our Guns In The United States’
Ensign On Why Gun Deaths Shouldn’t Be Factored Into Survival Rates: ‘We Like Our Guns In The United States’
Today in the Senate Finance Committee markup of health care legislation, Sen. John Ensign (R-NV) tried to make the case that the U.S. system is the best in the world and bristled at data that the country lags in halting preventable deaths compared to other industrialized nations. Ensign argued that those comparisons are unfair because they include deaths from auto accidents and gun violence, which are unique “cultural factors”:
ENSIGN: When you take into account cultural factors — the fact that we drive cars a lot more than any other country; we are much more mobile.
If you take out accidental deaths due to car accidents, and you take out gun deaths — because we like our guns in the United States and there are a lot more gun deaths in the United States — you take out those two things, you adjust those, and we actually better in terms of survival rates.
Watch it:
Basically, Ensign is proud of U.S. “cultural factors” that, as he admits, kill thousands of Americans each year. Instead of trying to improve the health care system to better address injuries from cars and guns, Ensign would like to just wipe them off the books and ignore them because they’re so unique to America.
As Sen. Kent Conrad (D-ND) responded, anyone can “rack and stack” the figures all they want, but the bottom line is that “other countries that do have universal care and do a much better job of controlling costs than we do, on metric after metric, finish ahead of us.”
The United States health care system isn’t going to take care of everyone except gunshot and automobile collision victims, so it’s unfair to exclude such data. Comapred with Australia, Canada, Germany, New Zealand, and the United Kingdom, the United States ranks last in all dimensions of a high performance health system: quality, access, efficiency, equity, and healthy lives. The United States currently ranks 50th out of 224 nations in life expectancy, with an average life span of 78.1 years, according to 2009 estimates from the CIA World Factbook.
Transcript:
ENSIGN: The first one you said on preventative deaths — Are you aware on that if you take out gun accidents and auto accidents, the United States actually is better than those other countries?
CONRAD: You can rack and stack –
ENSIGN: Auto accidents don’t have anything to do with health care. I mean, we’re just a much more mobile society. On the preventative deaths, if you take out auto accidents — because we drive our cars a lot more, they do public transportation — and so you have to compare health care system with health care system.
If you compare cancer rates, survival rates after five years, cardiovascular disease after five years, the United States does better than Europe.
CONRAD: We do very well.
ENSIGN: We do better than any of the countries that you pointed out.
CONRAD: Well, I can you this: I’d go back to the statistics that have been generated by lots of organizations on quality outcomes, and other countries that do have universal care and do a much better job of controlling costs than we do, on metric after metric, finish ahead of us. And I’d just direct you to the T.R. Reid book which is loaded with analysis from objective observers as to quality outcomes. And those countries, much lower costs than we do as a share of GDP, high quality outcomes — whether we’re first in a category or someone else is first — nonetheless, high quality outcomes in those countries, at much lower costs.
ENSIGN: I just think we should be fair when we’re comparing statistics.
CONRAD: And universal coverage.
ENSIGN: I just think we should be fair when we’re comparing statistics.
CONRAD: I’m always for fairness. [...]
ENSIGN: We hear all the time about — Sen. Conrad made the comparisons, and I made the argument earlier. He was talking about preventable deaths. We hear that they have the same kinds, or even better, results — longevity and things like that. When you take into account cultural factors — the fact that we drive cars a lot more than any other country; we are much more mobile.
If you take out accidental deaths due to car accidents, and you take out gun deaths — because we like our guns in the United States and there are a lot more gun-deaths in the United States — you take out those two things, you adjust those, and we actually better in terms of survival rates.
Topic Cloud
ArchivesBlog Roll
Ensign would say anything to get people’s minds off the fact that his parents had to bribe his mistress for him.
September 29th, 2009 at 3:19 pmThat’s it.
He just admitted that the number of guns available in the U.S. is directly proportional to the number of deaths by firearm.
Any questions?
September 29th, 2009 at 3:20 pmi applaud the citizens of nevada for supporting the metally challenged by sending a retard in the form of ensign to the senate. yaaaaaaayyyyyy nevada.
September 29th, 2009 at 3:21 pmHell, take out cancer deaths too and we still lag other countries…..
I call bullshit!
September 29th, 2009 at 3:21 pmI agree with Ensign. Our survival rates certainly look better than other countries when we stop counting all those pesky people who die. Why do they hate America?
September 29th, 2009 at 3:25 pm***
it’s always refreshing to get an opinion
on guns from a whore monger.
:|
September 29th, 2009 at 3:27 pmWhat’s a little death to a Republican.
These things cost MONEY. And not in the KBR or Lockheed way.
Hey morons, we like LIFE more than guns. And health. If you want life through guns with little else in life go to Somalia or Juarez.
September 29th, 2009 at 3:30 pmLike I’ve been saying, GOP = Party of Death.
September 29th, 2009 at 3:30 pmAnd if we took Ensign out of the Senate the collective IQ would go up by several points.
September 29th, 2009 at 3:31 pmFred says:
Wait, cancer rates don’t count, because “we like our tobacco, too,” right?
September 29th, 2009 at 3:31 pmEnsign is no brain trust, that’s for sure.
September 29th, 2009 at 3:32 pmMost Republicans are criminal – not profoundly stupid like they act – nobody is that stupid, not even retards -
- they’re bandits – corrupt to the core – they care about nobody but themselves.
Look how depraved they are willing to become for their dead political party.
September 29th, 2009 at 3:33 pmapparently, ensign is “fond of” having a mistress while beating the “traditional family values” drum. doesn’t make it right though.
September 29th, 2009 at 3:35 pmSo Ensign thinks health-care reform must include stricter gun-control laws?
September 29th, 2009 at 3:36 pmA member of The Other Russia said in the leadup to the 2008 Presidential election in that country, that if Putin nominated his black labrador, Koni, as his successor, Koni would still get 40% of the vote.
That’s the same mentality that has people elected idiots like Ensign and Conrad.
September 29th, 2009 at 3:37 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
This comment has been voted down. Click to read.
What a maroon! Ensign will never make Lt JG!
September 29th, 2009 at 3:41 pmAre you aware on that if you take out gun accidents and auto accidents, the United States actually is better than those other countries?
Of course, if you’re gonna play that way, you gotta recognize that the British are really into their soccer hooliganism, so you gotta remove those deaths from their count. And the Japanese love their wacky game shows, so wacky game show casualties don’t count. And the Aussies, well, they surf in shark-infested waters, so you gotta eliminate shark attacks from their statistics.
The fact is that removing gun deaths and automotive deaths does nothing but distort the picture (which, naturally, is what Ensign wants to do). Our health care system is meant to serve OUR culture. And it is less effective at that than the systems of other industrialized nations are at serving THEIR cultures.
September 29th, 2009 at 3:41 pmIf you don’t count Republicans and a large chunk of Democrats, America has a rational effective and surprisingly liberal government.
September 29th, 2009 at 3:41 pm“Today’s GOP, the pro-murder party. Vote for us.”
.
kwsventures says:
2nd amendment and population control
Start with yourself, ‘k?
September 29th, 2009 at 3:41 pmMan. That’s just so incredibly convoluted…I haven’t got the foggiest idea which orifice Enzi pulled that little gem from.
But I think I could make a pretty decent guess…:o/
September 29th, 2009 at 3:42 pmHas there ever been a lamer one-two punch of trolls than posts 16 and 17?
Wow. That was some weak-ass shit, guys. Try to pick up your game, okay?
September 29th, 2009 at 3:43 pmWhat about comparing the statistics for adultery and blackmail among those that hold political office worldwide?
Are we number one in that, too?
September 29th, 2009 at 3:43 pmOr to tack closer to Ensign’s tactic, if you don’t count the Deep South, every Republican position is wildly unpopular. We know we can’t change Southerners, just like no one would want to take away guns or driving, so really we should start ignoring them altogether. Next poll, there’s no need to include any numbers from the South.
September 29th, 2009 at 3:43 pm“Guns are good, liberals are bad.”
soooo, cancervative guy, when are you and your butt buddy kwsventures going to pony up and join the military?
September 29th, 2009 at 3:45 pmAnd the Irish loves to drink so you have to exclude all alcohol-related deaths in their statistics
September 29th, 2009 at 3:45 pmNow THAT is an intelligent way to deal with this crap.
September 29th, 2009 at 3:47 pmDoes the stupidity on the right ever end? Yep we like our guns. No ensign most people who like their guns are republicans. Handguns are made for one purpose and that is to kill human beings. People who like to hunt should be able to buy rifles. When repugs get upset because us libs dont think regular citizens should own automatic weapons, thats when repugs show their stupidity. Why does anyone need to own a 9mm handgun with a clip that holds 9 rounds of hollow tipped bullets?(cop killers) Who needs an assault rifle? These weapons are made for terrorist,rightwingnut extremist,and drug dealers. The only ones who should have access to these types of weapons are the authorities. The right always says, guns dont kill, people do. No people who get worked up by the likes of beck and limpo are the ones who kill.
September 29th, 2009 at 3:48 pmOne thing is clear: Ensign’s brains were f***ed out of him by that mistress of his!
September 29th, 2009 at 3:48 pmCongrats, kwsventures and conservative guy!
You boys have just been officially selected for the Troll Hall of Fame, based on your incredibly lame back-to-back posts earlier in this thread.
Normally a male troll post wouldn’t merit such attention. But two incredibly lame posts, back-to-back like that, now that is really is worth celebrating.
September 29th, 2009 at 3:49 pmTake out Republican scandals and the US ranks about the same as the rest of the world.
September 29th, 2009 at 3:49 pmI have a question for Sen. Conrad. If the Countries with Universal Care control costs better and have better health outcomes overall, WHY AREN’T YOU SUPPORTING THE ROBUST PUBLIC OPTION?!! You have a chance, along with your DINO colleauges to do the right thing by the American People and you don’t!
September 29th, 2009 at 3:51 pmyou know cancervative guy,
freud would be very interested in your fixation with guns. he would say either:
a) your pahllic fixation is compensation for having a small tool
or
b) your phallic fixation is indicative of latent homosexual tendencies.
so, which is it?
September 29th, 2009 at 3:51 pmIf we took out republicans from congress death rates would go down because responsible healthcare reform would be passed.
September 29th, 2009 at 3:58 pm34 Bozo The Neoclown says:
It could be that he just hates his country.
September 29th, 2009 at 4:02 pmthey’re unfair because they also include deaths due cardiovascular disease. common knowledge that amerikuns love diets high in saturated fats and sodium!
September 29th, 2009 at 4:03 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
OMG — following this logic, we should exclude all deaths resulting from drunk driving, because we like our liquor. And we should exclude all deaths from cancer and various lung diseases because we like our cigarettes. And let’s not count deaths from heart disease because we love our bacon cheeseburgers.
We could go on and on like this until statistics show we have no deaths at all!
But all this is pretty irrelevant when you consider that anyone suffering from a gunshot wound, a car accident, cancer, a heart attack, or any other critical health care need is probably going to want health care. And may or may not be able to afford it. And it’s getting this access to health care that often determines who dies prematurely and who survives.
But the fact that we have a lot more gun deaths than most other industrialized nations DOES point out a problem that shouldn’t be ignored.
September 29th, 2009 at 4:05 pmThere’s a reason why stats like this usually use ratios.
September 29th, 2009 at 4:06 pmI wonder if John Ensign would like to have untreated syphillis included in the count…..considering that can lead to death and the chances of him catching it are above average.
September 29th, 2009 at 4:09 pmbusav8or says:
It always amazes me how quickly the comments on this forum turn to name calling and relating guns to sexual objects! Are you all 12 years old or what?
(removes monocle, sets down brandy snifter and gazes down nose at you)
Pardon me gentle sir, but the TP comments section is a well known bastion of dignity and only the most genteel of manners. We all type with pinkies raised. How dare you malign us with accusations of hooliganry and uncouth behavior!
I hereby allege that your maternal parent routinely engages in prostitution with canine customers.
September 29th, 2009 at 4:13 pmbusav8or,
September 29th, 2009 at 4:13 pmthanks for your concern. now head back to freeperville for your daily circlejerk.
This comment has been voted down. Click to read.
Shorter Ensign: “We can look better than the rest of the world if we just move the goal posts next to our field position.”
September 29th, 2009 at 4:15 pmcancervative guy the great constitutional scholar,
September 29th, 2009 at 4:18 pmcan you tell me where in the constitution it mentions “hand guns”?
If you like your guns so much, then you can shoot yourself.
September 29th, 2009 at 4:19 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
OK, he should be impeached immediately and apologize to all victims and victims’ families of gun violence in this country. This is the same man who sponsored an amendment that would scrap most of DC’s law guns and prohibit DC from passing any further gun laws, another example of undemocratic gun nuttery putting ideology above public safety. Guns are not toys or paperweights, senator.
You’re right, machine guns should be as easy to buy as groceries in America.
September 29th, 2009 at 4:23 pmGood. You recognize, don’t you, that once you have “rested your case”, then you have no more to say, and the jury decides the fate of that case?
Excellent. I have a feeling the jury will render a verdict quite quickly.
September 29th, 2009 at 4:24 pmNow, why, I’m thinkin’to meself, would anyone want to excluded a group of gun-related deaths? And then I wondered–to meself–who the people are who die in disproportionate numbers from gun violence and, voila!–er, I mean, sure n’ begorrah, the answer was clear as a perfect diamond. Those people aren’t really considered “people” by the Republican party. As for the the drivin’ part: it’s no secret the Americans are the feckin’ worst drivers on the planet.
September 29th, 2009 at 4:27 pmGood. You recognize, don’t you, that once you have “rested your case”, then you have no more to say, and the jury decides the fate of that case?
Excellent. I have a feeling the jury will render a verdict quite quickly.
I await your decision, but reserve the right to appeal!
September 29th, 2009 at 4:27 pmbusav8or says:
Appeal denied.
September 29th, 2009 at 4:29 pmsscncturn64 says:
hollow points are not “cop killer bullets” most hunting rounds are hollow points. many hand guns are used for hunting and are great for mountainous and hilly terrain due to their portability. machine guns and full auto weapons are already illegal. “assault rifles” are great for hunting small game up to deer. someone may need that ninth round to defend themselves against multiple criminals for any number of reasons
September 29th, 2009 at 4:45 pmI don’t understand why we have so many gun deaths in our country when every gun enthusiast I’ve ever talked to claims that guns SAVE lives.
Perhaps one of the gun lovers here could explain why, with so many guns around to keep us “safe”, that so many of us are dying from gunshot wounds.
I suspect it has more to do with our culture than with the number of guns we have. They have at least as many guns per capita in places like Canada and Switzerland, but the citizens in those countries are far less trigger-happy.
Our movies, our television shows, our video games, and various other media in our culture tend to glorify guns as a solution to many different types of problems. We also tend to be a lot more fearful and distrustful, leading to a tendency to shoot first and ask questions later.
Culture has a tendency to affect a life expectancy rate. This includes a culture that leans toward fearful people with guns. Or a culture that leans toward granting health care only to the rich.
September 29th, 2009 at 4:46 pmone more thing. it is illegal to hunt cerain game with rifle in many states
September 29th, 2009 at 4:46 pmmissmolly says:
trying to explain why we have so many gun deaths is almost impossible. the vast majority of U.S. gun deaths are related to gang and drug violence, even still if you discount those figure we still have a much higher rate per capita of gun deaths. But our laws are much different that in european countries such as switerland. We have the right to defend ourselves with deadly force whereas they cannot. when it come to guns , comparing the U.S. to Europe is like comparing apple to oranges.
September 29th, 2009 at 4:55 pmOh, I forgot to mention that the person who has been hyping the bogus Ohsfeldt and Schneider report is none other than Betsy “Death Panels” McCaughey!
September 29th, 2009 at 4:56 pm57 We have the right to defend ourselves with deadly force whereas they cannot
They cannot? really!
September 29th, 2009 at 5:01 pmyes they can but it is illegal
September 29th, 2009 at 5:05 pmTwisted Logic from sick and twisted conservatives…
…they just go together.
September 29th, 2009 at 5:11 pmGuns. It’s just crazy isn’t it?
Tomorrow in AZ, there is a new law that says you can carry a concealed weapon into a place that serves alcohol as long as the person with the gun and the permit doesn’t drink. To me, dining, drinking and firearms don’t sound like a very good mix to me and I have a gun. I just feel the need to carry it everywhere I go.
The good thing is, the owner can post a sign saying they don’t want guns in their establishment.
September 29th, 2009 at 5:11 pmthat should have read: “don’t feel the need to carry it everywhere I go.”
September 29th, 2009 at 5:11 pmEnsign must have been having an attack of the extreme stupids rather than the usual stupids.
September 29th, 2009 at 5:14 pmSen. Ensign, I can play too!
I say we take out of the statistics:
Deaths and injuries due to auto accidents
Deaths and injuries due to gun shots
Deaths and injuries due to industrial accidents
Deaths and injuries due to cancer
Deaths and injuries due to heart attacks
Deaths and injuries due to viral infections (flu, HIV/AIDS, etc.)
Deaths and injuries due to bacterial infections
Deaths and injuries due to old age
Deaths and injuries due to premature births
If we do that, then the US might be the best in the world!
September 29th, 2009 at 5:30 pmLefty Liberal
You left out Deaths and injuries due to lack of heath care… 45 K per year.
September 29th, 2009 at 5:53 pmSHORTER MORON WINGNUTS SUCH AS ENSIGN: ‘if you don’t count any deaths or illness, the US system of health care, like everything US, is perfect.’
September 29th, 2009 at 6:00 pmLibertyLover says:
Lefty Liberal
You left out Deaths and injuries due to lack of heath care… 45 K per year.
DOH, good catch LibertyLover.
September 29th, 2009 at 6:01 pmmiss molly sez:
Well, mm, it’s really pretty simple: wingnut/gunnuts can argue both sides against the middle without a shred of embarrassment. They can cite mountains of evidence, all of which is hypothetical, that millions of people save their lives with guns every single hour in this country. Facts, you asked? Real, observable, reproducible facts? Umm, they don’ need no stinkin’ facts.
September 29th, 2009 at 6:06 pmmissmolly says:
I don’t understand why we have so many gun deaths in our country when every gun enthusiast I’ve ever talked to claims that guns SAVE lives.
Good point. I look forward to the NRA’s forthcoming press release condemning Ensign’s remarks.
September 29th, 2009 at 6:12 pmbozo, the second amendment, the part that says keep and bear arms. Handguns are arms.
As long as we’re talking about the constitution where does it mention that abortion and health care are rights?
libertylover, with my state of Arizona there are now 40 states that allow concealed carry in restaurants.
September 29th, 2009 at 6:16 pmthere are approximately 2.5 million deaths per year from all causes in the U.S. and about 30,000 are firearm related. That’s about 1% of the total. Just on the face of it, statistically speaking, removing just 1% of the total from a number cannot have a statistically significant effect on any measurement using that total since the standard error is more than that in any calculation. This is just more “lying with numbers” by Republicans in addition the their simply lying about everything with is their default position.
September 29th, 2009 at 6:17 pmSen. John Ensign (R-Adulterer-NV). There, fixed it for you TP.
September 29th, 2009 at 6:22 pmHandguns are arms.
So are Howitzers, RPG’s and Claymore’s right?
And so we should have unrestricted access to them as well? Is that your argument, ConservativeGuy?
September 29th, 2009 at 6:31 pmAs long as we’re talking about the constitution where does it mention that abortion and health care are rights?
The right to privacy as enshrined in the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment and the Ninth Amendment that states that rights are not restricted merely because they are not enumerated in the Constitution. As well as the provisions to ‘promote the General Welfare’
How’s that?
September 29th, 2009 at 6:36 pmWow for a second there I thought he was going to say something ignorant… can I rephrase that?
September 29th, 2009 at 7:15 pmI wonder how mumsey and dadsey feel about this. He should probably ask them first.
Gun injuries may be the best argement against universal healthcare.
Why should I help cletus get his foot reattached when he shoots himself?
September 29th, 2009 at 7:19 pmHaving lived in Germany for quite a few years, I can say that Ensign is quite mistaken. What separates Accidents on the autobahn from accidents here is that medevac is futile in Deutschland. When a German flips a BMW, Porsche, or Daimler convertible at a hundred and fifty mph, there are not many scraps to pick up from the highway. They usually just washed it down. More than once after an extended wait in a “Stau” we came upon a wreck where there was no need to take the residue to a crusher.
September 29th, 2009 at 7:21 pmOn the other hand, don’t the Germans have it set up to fly a surgeon and a basic surgical team to a wreck site to start procedures there and en route?
September 29th, 2009 at 7:45 pmWhat, gunshot and accident victims don’t need healthcare? I did not know that.
And someone should teach Rep. Ensign how %s work. Because I’m willing to bet if you removed those pesky parts out of *everyone’s* statistics, you’d still get the same %.
September 29th, 2009 at 7:45 pmThat’s just such classic gunnuttery, I just couldn’t pass it up. Consider what it’s saying: “they” (Europeans with tougher gun laws) can’t protect themselves from gun violence that basically doesn’t happen there. Why doesn’t it happen? Because there aren’t 3 firearms per person in European countries. Firearm violence in Europe is vanishingly small in comparison to here and the reason is the relative scarcity of guns. Easy as that.
September 29th, 2009 at 7:49 pm“As long as we’re talking about the constitution where does it mention that abortion and health care are rights?”
the answer is nowhere assclown. what’s your point?
September 29th, 2009 at 7:59 pmIt is amazing that wingnuts, who are self-proclaimed Constitutional purists, clearly have no idea what’s actually in, and not in, that document. But, on a more fundamental level they don’t even know the difference between how the Constitution sees rights vs. powers. In the first place, rights are taken to be inherent in the people and powers are what the people allow the government to exercise, through the law. The people have rights to do anything that isn’t specifically prohibited by law. The government, on the other hand, only has the powers that are enumerated by the Constitution, or laws that are constitutional. So, every time a wingnut challenges us to find this or that individual right in the Constitution it betrays his/her fundamental ignorance about this country. Well, it goes even beyond mere ignorance to his/her having the whole concept of rights and powers completely upside down and backwards.
September 29th, 2009 at 8:58 pmFrJackHackett says:
It is amazing that wingnuts, who are self-proclaimed Constitutional purists, clearly have no idea what’s actually in, and not in, that document.
You mean like how for the first 100 years of the Country Businesses couldn’t own other businesses, were criminally responsible for their actions, were dissolved upon criminal activities, who’s owners were responsible for their actions and how they couldn’t participate, lobby or be involved in elections? Those kinds of things? ;)
September 29th, 2009 at 9:09 pmUh, I loooovvvveee Fried Crisco. Is that gonna be taken out of the stats ?
Not to mention, that any decent statistician can take the numbers derived one way and derive them according to a set of new rules.
September 29th, 2009 at 9:52 pmI have tried following the Republican line of reasoning. I keep seeing a vision of a dog chasing his tail. I feel a migraine coming on!
I think Ensign is a graduate of Limbaugh’s school of advance stupidity or Murdoch’s school of buffoons. Maybe he went to Liberty College. I am sure his credentials definitely have “C” street stamped on them.
Ensin is needs of a good old fashion liberal education, the kind that stresses independent thinking. I wonder if Ensign ever experienced independent thought?
September 29th, 2009 at 9:57 pmFrom the blogpost;
“Basically, Ensign is proud of U.S. “cultural factors” that, as he admits, kill thousands of Americans each year. Instead of trying to improve the health care system to better address injuries from cars and guns, Ensign would like to just wipe them off the books and ignore them because they’re so unique to America.”
Obviously, Ensign is a dolt, but it’s also a fact that our trauma system handles gunshot and automobile trauma as well or better than any other nation’s system; unfortunately, our hospitals and trauma centers have a lot of experience with this issue. What is needed is preventive action to reduce the number of automobile and firearm injuries.
Chopping the firearms and auto trauma statistics out is also a really bad idea. If you don’t know what’s going wrong, if you don’t measure, in some fashion, the issues that confront you, then anything you do to try to fix the problem is just a wild stab in the dark. Trauma statistics are necessary to guide preventive measures as well as giving clinicians a grip on how they’re doing; every trauma that comes in the door has to be logged, logged precisely, and the treatment and outcome also have to be logged.
September 29th, 2009 at 10:13 pmConguy@71, Im curious, what is a concealed carry in restaurant?
September 29th, 2009 at 10:14 pmTwo true facts:
1. Liberals do not know the arguments against gun control.
2. No liberal has a clue nor wants to get a clue how many lives are saved per year by citizens owning guns. Fearing the result, no liberal group has ever funded a study to find out.
September 29th, 2009 at 11:10 pmRoboSlater says:
Liberals do not know the arguments against gun control.
You think you’re the first wingnut to wander in here? We’ve heard plenty already, from much better trolls than yourself. You got nothing we ain’t seen already. Maybe that’s why you didn’t even bother to present any of these arguments, hmm?
.
RoboSlater says:
No liberal has a clue nor wants to get a clue how many lives are saved per year by citizens owning guns. Fearing the result, no liberal group has ever funded a study to find out.
Translation: “I have secret information that you don’t have but I’m afraid to share it.”
Frankly, I’d love to see a comprehensive politically-neutral national study of how many deaths were prevented by guns. We could deduct that number from the number of gunshot deaths and there’d be nothing left to discuss. Which is precisely what you don’t want to see happen.
But I’m not interested in arguing against guns anyways. The mere fact that the “gun rights” crowd opposes licensing responsible gun owners demonstrates all by itself that they’re not responsible gun owners.
September 30th, 2009 at 12:23 amThere’s also the other problem the rooty toot right has; they don’t want valid statistics out there, statistics gathered and collated by relatively neutral sources, sources that haven’t bought into anyone’s political biases or sources who are capable of separating their biases from their profession as data collectors and analysts. Why? Because the righties don’t want the truth or facts to get in the way of numbers they’ve faked and they want to be able to make claims with no evidence in sight to support the other side, any other side.
The last thing the righties want is rational examination of their claims and requests for supporting data. They’re the real deal when it comes to touchy-feely; if it feels right to them, if it concurs with their biases, if it touches their corroded spite-ridden souls, it’s gotta be right, and may the devil take reality and facts.
September 30th, 2009 at 1:11 am“Two true facts:”
cancervatives love their guns because:
they are compensating for small tools you-know-where
and
they always forget the “in order to maintain a well-regulated militia” part of the second amendment
September 30th, 2009 at 6:00 amBozo,
I do not forget the well regulated militia part. During the period when the Bill of Rights was written a Militia was ordinary citizens that lived at home wheras a standing army is on a government payroll. So what,s your point about the militia clause??
September 30th, 2009 at 8:26 amDuring the period when the Bill of Rights was written
‘arms’ meant flintlocks… what’s your point??
September 30th, 2009 at 12:13 pm@ 92, 93, 94. Whazat to do with John Ensign, public health and hospital/clinic statistics dolt?
Since we’re OT though, allow me a small contribution;
The issue has never been, or should never be, the right of the ordinary law-abiding citizen to own or possess firearms. The only issue there is personal responsibility; keeping the firearms secured to prevent accidents and theft, along with appropriate usage.
For instance, here (in NM), we’ve always had the problem of idiots who go outside and fire a few rounds off into the sky for celebratory purposes at New Year’s Eve, the 4th of July, birthdays, etc. That may be OK if you’re out in a rural area, but if you’re in the middle of a city, it’s not such a good idea; it happens anyway and people get killed and wounded. I know that particular problem isn’t exclusive to this area, and you’d think people would learn, but you’d be wrong.
The problem has always been the criminals, wannabes, and other loose cannons. (heh heh snark)
I think it would be really excellent if we didn’t have to add the insanely politically biased to the list of loose cannons, but that probably isn’t going to happen either.
September 30th, 2009 at 12:41 pmStagoculus says:
So what,s your point about the militia clause??
It is no longer necessary (or even allowed) to “bring your own gun” when mustered. The 2nd Amendment is unique among the Bill of Rights in that it specifies exactly the purpose for granting the right. If the purpose is no longer fulfilled, one could make the argument that the right no longer applies.
September 30th, 2009 at 6:42 pmThank you for your sharing.!
October 3rd, 2009 at 9:30 am