ThinkFast: November 6, 2009
ThinkFast: November 6, 2009
A new labor report this morning indicates 190,000 jobs were lost last month. Unemployment rose to 10.2 percent in October, the highest rate since April 1983 and “much higher than analysts expected.”
Nidal M. Hasan’s name “appears on radical Internet postings,” including “posts that equated suicide bombers to soldiers who throw themselves on a grenade to save the lives of their comrades.” A fellow officer says Hasan “argued with soldiers who supported U.S. wars,” and while an intern at Walter Reed, Hasan reportedly had some “difficulties” that required counseling and extra supervision.
President Obama will make his first visit as president to Walter Reed Army Medical Center this afternoon. The White House says the visit was scheduled before the fatal shootings at Fort Hood yesterday. Obama is also pushing back a planned trip to Capitol Hill “aimed at discussing the proposed health care overhaul with lawmakers” from today to Saturday.
House Democratic leaders are trying to secure 218 votes to pass a health care reform bill this weekend. Of the 258 House Democrats, Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) — while “confident of victory” — is “working to limit defections to the roughly 25 Democrats viewed as ‘hard no’ votes.”
The editorial boards of both the New York Times and the Washington Post today sharply criticized Congress’s plans to expand a home buyer’s tax credit as stimulus. “This costly giveaway to the real estate and mortgage industry will spend far more in taxpayers’ dollars than it can ever deliver in economic benefit,” writes the NYT. The Post called the extension “a bad idea.”
President Obama made a surprise appearance at yesterday’s White House press briefing where he announced that the AARP and the American Medical Association endorsed health care reform legislation drafted by House Democrats. AARP CEO Barry Rand told reporters that the bill meets the goals of “making coverage affordable to our younger members and protecting Medicare for seniors.”
Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas has warned that he will not seek re-election, an indication that President Obama’s push for a Middle East peace deal “has fallen into disarray.” Abbas’ move comes among “tensions over the administration’s failure to extract an Israeli settlement freeze or any concessions from Arab leaders.”
The former chairman of Citigroup, John S. Reed, apologized for his role in leading the legislative charge that led to the merger that created the megabank. He said it was a mistake for Congress to repeal the Glass-Steagall Act and endorsed the breaking up of big banks.
Former New York Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik “pleaded guilty to charges of lying to Bush administration officials who vetted his unsuccessful 2004 nomination to be homeland security secretary.” Kerik, a close friend of Rudy Giuliani’s, “admitted to eight counts as part of a plea agreement with federal prosecutors, who are recommending a 27- to 33-month prison term.”
And finally: A dramatic reading of Levi Johnston’s tweets by William Shatner.
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Well, Folks, Faux is already gearing up to blame the Left for yesterday’s shootings. Several times this morning the idiots on ‘Teabaggers and Friends’ were claiming “political correctness” is the reason why the shooter was never arrested or detained earlier. Here it comes folks…it’s the Left’s fault, which will in turn be Obama’s fault. Hicks.
November 6th, 2009 at 9:01 amDr@1, That is why I will not watch ANY MSM until Keith. Add the unemployment number AND the MSM unwillingness to SHOW the racist posters at the so-called ‘Health Care Protest’ I have given up on MSM. Today will be nothing but a Obama Bash-Fest. Already this morning on ‘Morning Joe’ Joe’s eyes practically gleamed when he heard the unemployment number. WTF?
November 6th, 2009 at 9:10 am“The editorial boards of both the New York Times and the Washington Post today sharply criticized Congress’s plans to expand a home buyer’s tax credit as stimulus.”
People buying homes who can afford them increases property values. Falling property values are what got us into the financial crisis. Of course, they were caused by foreclosures of mortgages to people who were in the wrong kind of mortgages, because of greedy lenders. Making good, fair loans to the qualified is a good start in a recovery.
November 6th, 2009 at 9:12 amIt is very sad when (1) the right-wing whackos make an atrocity like the Fort Hood killings into a political issue and (2) our first reaction to the news has more to do with the killer’s last name than with our concern about those killed and injured.
Now is the time for mourning the victims and doing what is necessary to prevent a recurrence. We never seem to learn our lesson, though. The same folks are jumping to conclusions who did the same thing about the Virginia Tech shooter, etc.
November 6th, 2009 at 9:12 amif i’m not mistaken it’s a “christian” nation that is currently illegally occupying two countries that have done absolutely nothing to deserve it. “christians” who go to christian churches and murder doctors. “christians” who will scandalize your name if you get an abortion.
November 6th, 2009 at 9:13 amBy the way, John Boehner? READ YOUR CONSTITUTION.
November 6th, 2009 at 9:16 amDecision weekend for healthcare reform, apparently. Supposedly, a vote is being scheduled for HR 676 (pretty much just to placate—and condescend to—prgressives like Kucinich and Conyers) today, with HR 3962 getting the “real” vote. The bill is an abomination, and a (so far) $1t stop-gap measure until this country finally realizes that the only economically viable healthcare plan is single payer. Still, it’s better than nothing. Which is better than the GOP “plan”. It’ll pass the House.
Fort Hood is a tragedy, in several aspects. We’re losing enough lives overseas; now the carnage is domestic. And, predictably, the “mainstream” will hint that Hasan’s religious beliefs caused him to wound and murder his fellow soldiers. The far-right will flat out say it, and accuse the administration of setting off a sleeper cell.
November 6th, 2009 at 9:17 amDr. Hussein Matt says:
Several times this morning the idiots on ‘Teabaggers and Friends’ were claiming “political correctness” is the reason why the shooter was never arrested or detained earlier.
November 6th, 2009 at 9:18 am
Purple@6, That would require effort. Remember the Repugs whining about reading the Health Care Bill? I doubt they want to tackle the Constitution.
November 6th, 2009 at 9:18 amOh the irony of people trained to murder getting murdered.
Humanity is a cesspool of hypocrisy, nothing more.
November 6th, 2009 at 9:20 amI rarely watch any cable “news”, but out of curiosity I flipped on Faux to see how they were going to spin and politicize the events. At least they didn’t disappoint and went straight to blaming the Left.
November 6th, 2009 at 9:22 amObama is also pushing back a planned trip to Capitol Hill “aimed at discussing the proposed health care overhaul with lawmakers” from today to Saturday.
hmmm… not good…
should be today AND saturday…
what’s done is done, if he’s using ft.hood as an excuse…
imo.
November 6th, 2009 at 9:23 amI think before we get all worked up about some internet postings by a “Nidal Malik Hasan”, we need to know how common a name that is, and how likely it is that it’s the same guy who committed yesterday’s carnage at Fort Hood.
After all, there are probably a lot of women named Molly out there, who could theoretically get blamed for my posts here at TP. And that would be rather funny, considering that Molly isn’t even my real name (most of you know my handle comes from the fact that I “miss” Molly Ivins, the late, great Fort Worth columnist).
November 6th, 2009 at 9:23 amIf we teach people to use violence to solve conflicts, then we shouldn’t be surprised when they use violence to solve conflicts…
There’s nothing even remotely Liberal about teaching or using violence…
November 6th, 2009 at 9:24 amLook for the repiggies to make hay out of this sad situation for the next two weeks, up until the Thanksgiving holidays.
Then, it’s on to the next “outrage,” anything to distract the stupid from the lack of repiggie solutions to any problems out there.
November 6th, 2009 at 9:24 amP.D. @9, I think Purple@6 may be referring to the fact that at Crazy Shelly’s Tea Bag Festival, Boner stated that he was going to quote the Constitution, then quoted the Declaration of Independence instead.
So we have flag desecration, a Congressman who can’t say the Pledge of Allegiance correctly, and the Minority Leader who doesn’t know the Constitution from the Declaration of Independence.
Wat to go, G”NO”P!!
November 6th, 2009 at 9:24 amApparently he posted something on a blog about Muslim suicide bombers. Not sure of the all the details. But, he painted them as soldiers and this apparently raised some red flags somewhere up the chain.
The reich-wing is no doubt pleased that a brown person was the shooter.
November 6th, 2009 at 9:24 amDFNP your reasoning is as simplistic as the teabaggers who think the shooter is automatically a terrorist because he has an Islamic name. The people shot are trained to go to war and make no decisions about who they go to war with. We need to hold those who chose to account, not the grunts.
I guess you blame the tellers for the banking crisis too?
November 6th, 2009 at 9:24 amSo you’re going to give me a negative vote but not respond? How utterly trollish of you.
November 6th, 2009 at 9:28 amDr.@11, The Repugs and Faux News used to be more subtle. But since Obama won, they went off the deep end. I can’t believe how a News network can actually PROMOTE these events. It’s insane. This isn’t news, it is full fledge bias. In my 42 years, I have never seen anything quite like this.
November 6th, 2009 at 9:30 amAnyone who accuses Congress of not being acceptable, behold
http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/health_care/districts/MN6.Bachmann.pdf
Mathematical proof that Michelle Bachmann is full of shit. 99.79% of taxpayers in her district won’t see taxes increase. 11,000 uninsured residents will get insurance. The deficit will be cut by $30b.
So even though the bill is evil, and Nazism, and communist, and socialist-y and the greatest assault on American freedom since the Founding Fathers bought all those slaves…it saves money, Shelly.
November 6th, 2009 at 9:31 amhttp://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/06/us/06suspect.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss
November 6th, 2009 at 9:31 am
Dave@16, If a Democrat misquoted ANYTHING these Repugs would run them out of town. And if the flag fell when they were making a speech? These guys would grab fire and label them traitors.
November 6th, 2009 at 9:32 amMan up and defend your point DFNP.
November 6th, 2009 at 9:33 amThe thing that amazes me is that something like the Fort Hood shooting didn’t happen 3-4 years sooner.
November 6th, 2009 at 9:33 amIt was only a matter of time before someone snapped.
I’ve seen guys wigged out after 1 tour in the Nam, but these schmucks have been deployed to war zones 6+ times.
Wow, that should’ve been “accessible”. Not enough coffee this morning.
Though both fit, I guess…
November 6th, 2009 at 9:35 amit doesn’t much matter that the guy was muslim, if
the ASSAULT WEAPON BAN had not been lifter by bushco,
there would not have been such carnage.
anyone talking about that?
November 6th, 2009 at 9:35 amP.D., they slammed Obama because he didn’t wear a freakin’ lapel pin, for pete’s sake. But a Rethug misquote the Pledge? Eh, don’t worry about it.
Hypocritical scumbags.
November 6th, 2009 at 9:35 amHi katy, I thought he used handguns?
November 6th, 2009 at 9:36 amUnbelievable, I had the same though yesterday when I first heard the news about Fort Hood. I thought “imagine that, people who are getting ready to go to war, started it a bit early”.
November 6th, 2009 at 9:36 amHey, TP, how did you miss this?:
November 6th, 2009 at 9:37 amBesides being a source for jokes equating Gitmo to Wall Street story this needs to be spread more widely.
Just sayin’.
Oops, the link didn’t get embedded.
http://www.citizensforethics.org/node/43232
November 6th, 2009 at 9:37 amI just heard that Hasan was given lots of sh*t by his military peers for being a Muslim. Enough to make him snap? Perhaps not but:
1-Bullying can drive one to do crazy things.
2-No doubt hearing all of the horror stories as a psychiatrist from fellow soldiers about the deaths of their comrades to the deaths of innocent Iraqi men, women and children drove Hasan over the top.
3-Being shipped to a war he so detested was the final straw.
Conclusion: To all the righties out there…perhaps this was God’s way of punishing our military for all of the atrocities we have committed in Iraq, in his name??
Not condoning the slaughter at Ft. Hood but once you get into the mind of Hasan, you understand why he snapped.
Moral to the story: GET THE PHUCK OUT OF IRAQ & AFGHANISTAN ASAP!
November 6th, 2009 at 9:38 amBobwurst says: So you’re going to give me a negative vote but not respond? How utterly trollish of you.
Precisely why I oppose dislike buttons… The flag should be enough to get rid of the really bad stuff.
November 6th, 2009 at 9:40 amUncle Ho @ 25 says:
————————————————————–
It has happened…at Fort Collins.
Just wait until we do finally bring our troops home. I imagine we will be hearing about all kinds of stories like this in the news.
November 6th, 2009 at 9:40 amEveryone see Jon Stewart imitating Glenn Beck last night?
Priceless!
hope this link works:
November 6th, 2009 at 9:42 amhttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/06/jon-stewart-does-glenn-be_n_348129.html
The unemployment rate in Ohio is higher than the national average. No jobs here. What we have too much of is going without and hopelessness. Dear Lord, when are the jobs coming back?
November 6th, 2009 at 9:42 amI find it quite ironic how rethuglicans are worried that the price tag of health care reform will be passed off to future generations yet the price tag of having no or unaffordable health care AND the price tag of the two failed wars being passed on to future generations is totally ignored by these ignorant neanderthals.
November 6th, 2009 at 9:44 amwhat the heck?!! Obama was scheduled to go to Walter Reed hospital….. before the shooting occurred? I’m gettin a bit weirded out by all of this – it’s giving me 9/11 flashbacks..
If I see a memo saying they had been doing drills about possible attacks at a military base.. -
sorry, maybe that’s wrong to say – but really, weird coincidence
November 6th, 2009 at 9:46 amForTruth says: Unbelievable, I had the same though yesterday when I first heard the news about Fort Hood. I thought “imagine that, people who are getting ready to go to war, started it a bit early”.
We seem to have evolved brains big enough to act consciously, but not yet big enough to actually understand the ramifications of those actions. Dangerous.
November 6th, 2009 at 9:47 amKaty, for clarity, the AWB expired under dubyah and not lifted. Also, if the AWB was still in place, it wouldn’t have made a difference. The vast majority of the provisions were cosmetic restrictions (e.g, the bayonet mounting lug was banned on the AR-15, elimination of pistol grips on shot guns, etc). He could have still bought existing high capacity magazines for his pistols. Those were not banned.
November 6th, 2009 at 9:47 amWhat I find strange is why the military would send a professed Muslim to Iraq or Afghanistan? It would surely be against this man’s religion to take up arms against his fellow believers. Couldn’t this man have served just as effectively here?
November 6th, 2009 at 9:49 amCorrect. The AWB would have not restricted this solider from purchasing his pistols.
November 6th, 2009 at 9:50 amoooh… i touched an nra nerve there…
yes, bobwurst, it was a semi-automatic handgun… that doesn’t qualify as an assault weapon?
dr.matt has corrected me also…
November 6th, 2009 at 9:52 amlarkohio says
November 6th, 2009 at 9:42 am
The unemployment rate in Ohio is higher than the national average. No jobs here. What we have too much of is going without and hopelessness. Dear Lord, when are the jobs coming back?
_____________________________________________________________
I was just hearing something on NPR about this either yesterday or the day before. Studies are showing that employers are holding back on hiring because they want to wait and see if the upturn of the economy is going to last, or if it’s just a fluke. As confidence among employers grows, the jobs will come back.
It’s a pity that unemployment is usually the last thing to improve when coming out of a recession, because that’s the factor most of us feel.
November 6th, 2009 at 9:53 amLook at the bright side, they can always get jobs as protestors against the Economic Stimulus Plan, against Universal Healthcare, and against extending unemployment benefits…
November 6th, 2009 at 9:55 amNo and No.
November 6th, 2009 at 9:55 amI would be honored to get blamed for any of your posts here at TP, MissM.
November 6th, 2009 at 9:55 ammissmolly
Studies are showing that employers are holding back on hiring because they want to wait and see if the upturn of the economy is going to last,
wow.. talk about some sound reasoning they have there – I don’t see a problem with that at all..
November 6th, 2009 at 9:56 amand missmolly.. no that was not a criticism of you or your post – of the companies..
=)
November 6th, 2009 at 9:57 amBring back the Citizens Conservation Corp’s!
Not only will it put millions of young Americans back to work but also teach them discipline and how to get along with others who are different from them…while our infrastructure gets rebuilt.
November 6th, 2009 at 9:57 amOh, and thanks for all the fish.
November 6th, 2009 at 9:58 amlux says:
missmolly
Studies are showing that employers are holding back on hiring because they want to wait and see if the upturn of the economy is going to last,
wow.. talk about some sound reasoning they have there – I don’t see a problem with that at all..
November 6th, 2009 at 9:59 am————————————————————–
See….if we just gave them massive tax cuts they would create more jobs…blah-blah-blah-hurl!
The former chairman of Citigroup, John S. Reed, apologized for his role in leading the legislative charge that led to the merger that created the megabank. He said it was a mistake for Congress to repeal the Glass-Steagall Act and endorsed the breaking up of big banks.
—————————————————————-
And yet Congress has no plans for repealing the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act of 1999 and reinstating the Glass-Steagall Act….
Why is that?????????
November 6th, 2009 at 10:01 am1) The Assault Weapons Ban only affected the civilian market
November 6th, 2009 at 10:05 am2) the military is all about Assault Weapons.
Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas has warned that he will not seek re-election, citing “tensions over Obama’s administration’s failure to extract an Israeli settlement freeze …
so.. let me get this straight – he’s not going for re-election.. because Obama didn’t wave his ‘freeze settlement’ wand
the same way as people here are disgruntled because he hasn’t waved his ‘create jobs’ wand
I’m just amazed at what they expect out of this guy.
November 6th, 2009 at 10:05 amlarkohio says:
The unemployment rate in Ohio is higher than the national average. No jobs here. What we have too much of is going without and hopelessness. Dear Lord, when are the jobs coming back?
—————————————————————
I feel for you, sadly, these jobs aren’t coming back.
during the period before and after the Great Depression American jobs weren’t being outsourced and shipped overseas. Those lost jobs are gone forever thanks to greedy, disloyal corporations and our stupid government for allowing them to do this.
November 6th, 2009 at 10:05 amaquarius2 says: What I find strange is why the military would send a professed Muslim to Iraq or Afghanistan? It would surely be against this man’s religion to take up arms against his fellow believers. Couldn’t this man have served just as effectively here?
Well he was serving here!
If his duty to his faith overrode his duty to commanders and fellow soldiers, then here or there would make no difference, he’s still going tn be conflicted.
By the same token, why would the US send professed Christians to fight against Muslims when avoiding the implication of a religious war was so important?
Needs must when the devil drives, and as we’ve seen the Army doesn’t give a crap about a soldier’s personal convictions in wartime because it can’t afford to.
November 6th, 2009 at 10:06 amWhat is amazing is that all of the conjecture will have a conclusion since the shooter actually survived….there should be an answer eventually. If he does connect his attack to religion or as a jihad, all hell will break loose.
November 6th, 2009 at 10:07 amGlobalism and the “free” market will turn the USA into a third world country….
November 6th, 2009 at 10:08 aman eye witness reports that he screamed ‘Allah Akbar’ before firing…
so folks…… sorry to say.. but um..
November 6th, 2009 at 10:08 amUncle Ho says:
1) The Assault Weapons Ban only affected the civilian market
2) the military is all about Assault Weapons.
well, duh…
i’ve heard that his weapons were NOT miltary issue…
and, that his rank allowed that he would not be searched upon
November 6th, 2009 at 10:09 amentering the base… with his civilian market purchases…
Mr.Peepers @ 59 says:
————————————————————–
Maybe, maybe not. But with that said and with all of the gun toting radical right wing extremists out there, I wouldn’t want to be a Muslim in America right now.
When I first heard this story break, my first thought was it was an act by some extremists in the American Taliban or a Muslim soldier acting out. I don’t know which could be worse?
November 6th, 2009 at 10:11 amBernard Kerik “pleaded guilty to charges of lying to Bush administration officials
.. doesn’t that.. cancel out?
November 6th, 2009 at 10:14 amJust out of curiosity, how come the media hasn’t dived into Anthony Sowell’s religious background?
November 6th, 2009 at 10:19 amlux says:
an eye witness reports that he screamed ‘Allah Akbar’ before firing…
so folks…… sorry to say.. but um..
————————————————————
lux, I sense that you have been holding back all morning over the Ft.Hood shootings and are busting at the seams to say or suggest something?
Could it be that you are thinking this is all a deadly charade perpetrated by the government to fuel more fear and hate towards Muslim’s and to drum up more support for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan?
I myself don’t believe this but Manchurian candidate does come to mind and upon hearing that an eye witness did hear Hasan scream ‘Allah Akbar’ before firing, makes this all seem a bit strange…in that it is going to increase tensions between Americans and Muslims and possibly gain support for the two failed wars….a mini 9/11 perhaps?
November 6th, 2009 at 10:20 amMy above comment at 10:20 am are not my actual thoughts but the thoughts of what I believe some who dabble in conspiracy theories will think.
November 6th, 2009 at 10:22 amlux says:
Bernard Kerik “pleaded guilty to charges of lying to Bush administration officials
.. doesn’t that.. cancel out?
November 6th, 2009 at 10:22 am————————————————————
A liar lying to liars…..
Bernie Kerik would have been perfect as the head of the DHS for the Bush administration…unqualified, corrupt and dishonest.
November 6th, 2009 at 10:23 amHow much is anyone here willing to bet that Rush was on this case and spinning it as anti-obama propaganda as soon as it happened yesterday?
November 6th, 2009 at 10:24 am#61 wow.. really.. a -1? It’s what they reported – I watched the video of the witness..
seems to make it difficult to not equate it with religion.
I think this is a rough crowd, I’m not saying he said it because I hope he was doing it as a terrorist type incident – I’m not saying it out of any viewpoint towards muslims..
I’m saying – when he reportedly screams such a thing before commencing fire he is either a)deliberately acting out the same actions of a jihadist… or b) the eye witness is lying..
November 6th, 2009 at 10:24 amthere’s a rather weak option c) which is that he said it because he figured he was going to die.. and he’s muslim – and thus it’s just.. i guess ritual – but that as I said, seems weak – it seems if the witness is true.. it would be him acting out a terrorist action. You really can disagree with that??
“If one suicide bomber can kill 100 enemy soldiers because they were caught off guard that would be considered a strategic victory,” the man wrote.
The author of that doesn’t seem to understand what strategic means in general or in the context of war. ‘Large group killings have occurred throughout the Iraq War/Occupation with no strategic result. The US’s departure from Iraq is not predicated on the number of lives lost but on the lack of strategic progress and the financial cost.
As to the rationalization of a sneaky suicide attack as an smaller evil ( or act of desperation) serving a greater good, I see a parallel to the murderous ‘pro-life’ anti-abortionists.
They justify their assaults and murders in the same terms. The common ground is their conviction of an overarching moral code derived from their declared Faith, not from secular community standards of behavior codified in secular law.
Loyalty to their Faith as they understand it and their fellow faithful is more important than any other concerns.
November 6th, 2009 at 10:25 am5th Estate @ 72 says:
November 6th, 2009 at 10:29 am————————————————————–
Good points….the murderous pro life freaks should be impressed by this.
Is everyone falling for the insurance co.’s “please, please don’t throw me into the briar patch” routine.
Like they have a probem with a mandate that virtually all americans must purchase insurance. Except for the lucky 2% that qualify for some kind of public option.
Seems like all the members of congress and the senate could benefit from Dr. Leo Marvin’s “Baby Steps” – hey, it worked for Bob Wiley.
November 6th, 2009 at 10:30 am#66 Uncle Fester Lurks
well… there would be option D of my post #71
and ya…. I considered it.. but it makes me a left wingnut to think such a thing.. but the fact remains..
since Obama was elected I knew one thing is a weakness for him politically…. a terrorist attack – and figured all any conservative group would need to do is stage one.. in some way.
There’s also the fact that he’s deliberating about Afghanistan..
I dunno… to think such things is crazy talk.. but the government does crazy things. And the ‘eye witness’ on video that claimed he yelled ‘Allah Akbar’ — was anonymous.. and never showed their face – and had their voice manipulated.
so… you tell me. Cause I really don’t know anymore.. some things seem odd.
November 6th, 2009 at 10:30 amI read that the major was a psychiatrist…not a combat grunt.
But he freaked at the prospect of being deployed.
Thanks Bush.
November 6th, 2009 at 10:33 amDo we have a list of these 25 Democrats Who Think And Act Like The Republicans We So Rightly Scorn?
Boot their a$$es out of Congress. Act Blue! Let’s have some accountability!
Cheers,
November 6th, 2009 at 10:34 amThere is no justification for the killings in Ft. Hood, and no justification for pro-lifers…..a nutjob is a nutjob. This nutjob just seems to be continuing a trend that others of his faith have been perpetrating around the world for quite some time now.
November 6th, 2009 at 10:36 amMarie says:
Oh man! That was Jon Stewart at his finest. “11 principals of 3 herbs and spices”. “socialize your nazism”. LMAO.
November 6th, 2009 at 10:36 amWell lux, after 9/11 I no longer trust the media or our government, I don’t care which party is in power because in my opinion they are just puppets for the corporations, Banks, Wall Street and the War industry.
November 6th, 2009 at 10:40 amThinking on Maj. Hasan…that poor guy had enough conflict and terrible stress in his mind to make anyone snap; think about it: he’s an American, a Muslim, a soldier, a healer…
He is a man who believed the war was immoral, a Muslim who was being forced to deploy to fight against Muslims, all the while being taunted as a Muslim himself, and his job was hearing horror stories every day about brutal firefights and the deaths and misery of not only of his fellow soldiers, but his fellow Muslims (including innocent women and children)…
How many of us could stand that kind of strain?
November 6th, 2009 at 10:40 amThe popular theory among many is that our presidents are just puppets.. I don’t buy into it – probably just because I like to believe there’s some shred of democracy left.
But if it were true.. then Obama would be the new pawn.. and nothing more.
I’ll be watching the events that follow with Ft. Hood… and try to stay as skeptical of any ‘conspiracy’ thoughts as possible.. but if things start not adding up.. and if political actions start to coincide with events… just because something is unthinkable.. doesn’t mean it can’t be reality.
November 6th, 2009 at 10:42 amlol.. as my simultaneous post show Uncle Fester lurks… I’m with ya
November 6th, 2009 at 10:43 amIf Major Hasan had been a Christian but driven to murder by his faith (as some anti-abortionists have been) there probably wouldn’t be nearly so much attention paid to his faith as a factor in his actions.
Scott Roeder (Dr.Tiller’s murderer) is an example. He’s been disavowed by the usual Christian cheerleaders as a lone nutcase, yet every abortion doctor murderer in jail is in fact a raving bible-thumper.
When Christians do something bad their faith is given a pass when “God told me to do it” is a murderer’s excuse they are accused of general insanity. They get convicted but their faith doesn’t.
November 6th, 2009 at 10:45 amHe is a man who believed the war was immoral, a Muslim who was being forced to deploy to fight against Muslims, all the while being taunted as a Muslim himself, and his job was hearing horror stories every day about brutal firefights and the deaths and misery of not only of his fellow soldiers, but his fellow Muslims (including innocent women and children)…
How many of us could stand that kind of strain?
Annie, are you justifying his killing of his fellow soldiers? I seriously doubt his Muslim family forced him to join the military….this is potentially an even worse story than what has come out so far.
November 6th, 2009 at 10:49 amwell.. it contributes to that fact that Christians make up a majority of the nation 5th estate… I understand what you’re saying.. but it gets to the point where it would be like saying a person is white – and that’s why they did it – and although I suppose that very well could be the reason.. There are afterall crimes that the motivating factor was race.. like a white racist attacking a black person, but making the claim ‘they did it because they are white’ has to be supported with evidence. In the case of Christians killing an abortion doctor – it’s obvious that religion was a main factor… and them being completely off their rocker.
I might add.. there’s a huge irony here – people here do a lot of Christian bashing.. or at least religion bashing.. –
November 6th, 2009 at 10:54 amUncle Fester Lurks says: When I first heard this story break, my first thought was it was an act by some extremists in the American Taliban or a Muslim soldier acting out. I don’t know which could be worse?
My first guess without evidence was Muslim soldier freak-out.
The “American Taliban” is pro-army because quite a few of their ilk are in it (in fact it’s long been a strategic mission to have an active presence in the military and some are in by default because of socio-economic pressures and demographics.
I discounted any white-supremacist militia too because their preference would be to attack symbols of government bureaucracy/general law enforcement, and the military doesn’t count.
I briefly considered that maybe it was Fred Phelps, but he;d never get onto the base in the first place and besides he’s…. Fred Phelps.
November 6th, 2009 at 11:00 amLux, how progressive is religion?
November 6th, 2009 at 11:01 amIf you’re going to say ‘it has nothing to do with his religion’.. then you have to stand by such a rule.
fact is – sometimes killing has to do with a person’s religion.. and the fact that they are crazy. They are both contributing factors.. the first factor can be used as a justification.
Which is why I INSIST people who kill people – are equally wrong and not to be equated with their religion.. but the fact that they are jackasses who are f’d in the head. I’m religious – I believe in a God of love.. anything that inspired me to kill another person would be nothing more than a screw coming lose. If I justified it by my religion.. then that was simply what I had available to justify it.. some do it with no justification at all. Atheists, Christians and Muslims.. and Jews.. and whoever else – all kill – and if you are pointing the finger at the religion.. you are missing the mark.
November 6th, 2009 at 11:04 amjust heard an AP radio news report that major hasan had given away many of his possessions – not just before his move to ft.hood, but in the days and hours before his attack…
November 6th, 2009 at 11:07 am#88 Mr. Peepers – Cute. Some things in life are either true or false.
how progressive is the constitution – such as the bill of rights that gives freedom of religion?
how Democratic is it for you to insist what I believe? Would you like that? I don’t.
And actually – my belief is quite progressive – since I spent most of my life an atheist.
November 6th, 2009 at 11:07 amI think the point, lux, is that it’s no worse when a Muslim kills someone than it is when a Christian kills someone. Regardless of the reasons, killing another person is just plain wrong — whether that’s because you disagree with their religious views, because your god told you to kill them, because they’re your supposed enemy in a war, because they’ve slept with your spouse, or because the state has a law allowing you to lethall inject them, it’s still wrong.
Viewing it through that perspective, the fact that the Fort Hood gunman is a Muslim is no more relevant to the horrors he’s inflicted than the fact that Tim McVeigh and James Earl Ray were Christians, or that Lee Harvey Oswald was an atheist — religion isn’t relevant to the inhumanity of murder. So tying this murderer’s actions to his religion, as the right wingers are trying to do so that they can further justify their hatred of all things non-Christian (and especially all things Muslim or even just scary brown), is very disingenuous and can only incite further hatred in our society. That clearly won’t help anyone.
November 6th, 2009 at 11:08 am#53 Uncle Fester Lurks says:
“Nice country you have here. Be a shame if anything happened to it….”
Cheers,
November 6th, 2009 at 11:09 amlux says
November 6th, 2009 at 10:08 am
an eye witness reports that he screamed ‘Allah Akbar’ before firing…
______________________________________________________________
Which, if actually true, could mean a couple of things. It literally means “God is great”, and is a very common expression.
1) It’s used during the salat, or daily prayers.
2) It’s used when slaughtering animals in the zabiha halal manner.
3) It’s used anytime one wants to credit God for something good — sort of like the way we say, “Thank God I wasn’t in that freeway pileup!” or “Thank God it’s Friday!”
4) It’s used as an expression of encouragement and hope in everyday conversation.
5) It’s used by crackpot extremists prior to committing an act of terrorism, because in their deluded minds, they think they are doing something to honor God.
6) It’s used by somebody who believes he’s about to die. Many Muslims (and many people of any religious faith) want their last words on Earth to be in praise of God.
My guess is that if Hasan said this just before he started shooting, it was Reason #6. Or maybe even Reason #4. But there are going to be plenty of people who are going to spin toward Reason #5.
November 6th, 2009 at 11:11 am#92 The Dogfather.. to that I say with a snarky grin – amen my brotha.
November 6th, 2009 at 11:11 ammissmolly… I say you’re right.. it could be any of those.. and I basicly made that point.
but it definitely wasn’t a good sign for the direction the debate will go about it..
and now evidence is showing it was quite premeditated.
and there’s that lingering thought of 9/11 in my mind.. because yes, I’m one of those truthers – I am 100% on the controlled demolition boat… and there was all the fishy evidence – the will they found of one of terrorists.. rather odd to have a will… ? And the ID that survived.. etc. etc.
Or maybe it was the fact that the 9/11 so called terrorists were ‘devout muslims’ and also were spending their last week in strip bars.
many many things.
November 6th, 2009 at 11:18 amHow progressive is religion? It depends. The Bahia say that the day will come when no man will be able to sleep as long as one child goes hungry. That sounds pretty progressive to me.
November 6th, 2009 at 11:20 amreligion has been at the root of most of the wars and oppression that humankind has experienced.
They are dangerous. Zealots almost always end up in control.
November 6th, 2009 at 11:32 amFred.. I would wager killers have been at the root of every death.
I say they’re the problem.. and you are very sidetracked.
November 6th, 2009 at 11:35 amactually.. i should have said every murder. before someone corrects me…
November 6th, 2009 at 11:35 amlux, even Hitler used Christianity. It is used for power, nothing more.
You are entitled to your opinion but don’t deny me mine in the process.
You can’t convince me and I probably can’t convince you.
November 6th, 2009 at 11:36 amI would wager that GREED and the protection of privelege has been BEHIND more wars than anything else no matter what the EXCUSE was
November 6th, 2009 at 11:39 amIt’s like saying ‘money is the root of all evil’…. um.. no – it’s really not… if you say that, you have the wrong thing in your crosshairs. Eliminate money.. and some other barter system replaces it.. it isn’t the problem. And though I’m sure you think it’s the case, eliminate religion and you won’t eliminate war. Religion is used as a justification.. a scapegoat for actions that someone already wants to commit.
Khalil Gibran – could the killer succeed were it not for the secret wish of us all?
November 6th, 2009 at 11:42 amI found this interesting scenario by someone from another blog regarding Hasan and the Ft. Hood massacre:
saw this on the net:
“In Washington, a senior U.S. official said authorities at Fort Hood initially thought one of the victims who had been shot and killed was the shooter. The mistake resulted in a delay of several hours in identifying Hasan as the alleged assailant.”
The truth is probably something VERY different. For example:
‘Two US privates John Smith and John Henry had been seeing a military psychiatrist major Hasan at Fort hood for a few weeks. Both privates said they were completely against the war of oppression in the middle east and would refuse to report for active duty if ordered to do so.
So the army put them both in therapy with Dr. Hasan. After more than five weeks of therapy both Christian privates were called to go to Afghanistan. Both privates warned they would not go and they would defend themselves with force if the army tried to force them to fight in a war they believed was morally wrong.
Yesterday fellow soldiers tried to surprise the two conscientious objectors but the privates were prepared and killed 12 soldiers who tried to force their way into the privates’ barracks at Fort Hood.
During the melee their psychiatrist major Hasan, tried to talk the two privates into surrendering but he was shot twice.
Finally both privates were overcome and killed. Their psychiatrist major Hasan is in hospital recovering.’
Officials of the military have spun the story to make it seem the privates’ doctor (who has a Muslim sounding name) was the perpetrator so that the public does not understand just how much resistance there is to the middle east war in the military rank and file.
The whole official Fort Hood cover story is 98% a lie – just like 9/11. Do you trust the main stream media for the truth in a story like this? Heck, for any story?
I do not.
Support the troops. End the war in the middle east and bring the troops home.
Now.
November 6th, 2009 at 11:43 amThe love of money is the root of all evil.
November 6th, 2009 at 11:44 amand the exception proves the rule.
I don’t use Religion for the gaining of power.. I simply believe.
I understand your viewpoint – I had the viewpoint for 25 years.. I’m not going to deny your view, and that’s the reason! because I had it.. and argued against those that believe most my life. It’s foolish to argue with people about beliefs… you know why? Because it’s a belief.. no one can believe something they don’t believe – it’s a technical impossibility.
November 6th, 2009 at 11:45 amMany don’t but many have and it’s documented and undeniable.
I agree with your second point.
November 6th, 2009 at 11:50 amnow.. from another perspective.. if I had someone honestly interested in discussing religion.. and was receptive.
sure.. that’s a different story. Still.. that’s really not a path to belief either.
but anyway.. the point is just I see a double standard alot.. ‘I can trounce on your religion – for a good laugh – but on the other hand… why don’t you stfu’ that’s hardly fair. So I say.. let’s not discuss it.
anyway.. taking off – I’ll see you all another time.
November 6th, 2009 at 11:53 amlux, there are many good religious people. My Grandmother was one of those. What you see today is not the same as it was then as far as Christianity.
When we present Jesus as a pro-war, pro-capital punishment, anti-poor, anti-homosexual, anti-environment, pro-nuclear weapons authority figure draped in an American flag, I think we are making a travesty of the portrait of Jesus we find in the gospels.
November 6th, 2009 at 12:02 pmLeftside Annie says:
Thinking on Maj. Hasan…that poor guy had enough conflict and terrible stress in his mind to make anyone snap; think about it: he’s an American, a Muslim, a soldier, a healer…
He is a man who believed the war was immoral, a Muslim who was being forced to deploy to fight against Muslims, all the while being taunted as a Muslim himself, and his job was hearing horror stories every day about brutal firefights and the deaths and misery of not only of his fellow soldiers, but his fellow Muslims (including innocent women and children)…
He chose to join the army, he wasn’t drafted. I would guess that anyone joining the military understands that they are going into a rough situation, not a vacation at Club Med. There is no justification for what he did.
November 6th, 2009 at 12:07 pmHe chose to join the army, he wasn’t drafted. I would guess that anyone joining the military understands that they are going into a rough situation.
Everyone who joined the Army before 9/11 knew they would be shipped off to fight an endless war in Iraq? How, exactly?
November 6th, 2009 at 12:11 pmEmTee, everything is not always black and white.
Society is responsible for some of the things that break it’s citizens. The US is the most violent society on the face of the earth. There is a reason for it and it’s not just because a majority of violent people live in the US.
November 6th, 2009 at 12:24 pmlux says: “well.. it contributes to that fact that Christians make up a majority of the nation 5th estate… I might add.. there’s a huge irony here – people here do a lot of Christian bashing.. or at least religion bashing..”
Certainly there’s irony if you perceive that Christians are more criticized here at TP more than Muslims, but “Christian bashing” implies that that such criticism is unfounded or at least unfair.
Both religions profess to be peaceful and considerate of others, yet both have violent congregants and religious officials/leaders who assent by selective silence or equivocation to violent acts conducted in the name of their respective faiths.
It is certainly my impression that their seem to be plenty of leaders of the Muslim religion who are explicit in their calls for violence as a religious duty in service of a religious cause (for which rewards in heaven are promised).
But American Christianity has its vocal champions of religiously sanctioned violence too, though they seem to be fewer than in the Muslim ranks (judging by the reporting we get in the US).
But “Christian bashing” certainly isn’t done without foundation.
Fred Phelps is a Christian. but rejoices in the deaths of US soldiers because “God hates fags”.
Pat Robertson claimed 9-11 and Katrina were God’s retributions for tolerance of homosexuality and other liberal and supposedly exclusively secular traits.
The Religious Right, all Christian as a whole has vociferously called secularists and liberals baby-killers and have declared the murderers of abortion doctors as heroes.
The Religious Right has sent missionaries to Iraq specifically to proselytize and convert Iraqis, an action that Muslims consider aggressive just as Christians would consider Muslim attempts to do the same in a Christians community aggressive.
Teabaggers are espousing armed revolution against Democrats who they perceive as godless baby-killers, and Obama as the Anti-Christ.
Violent imagery and rhetoric are prevalent in their banners. There’s been no evident condemnation of their sentiments by prominent religious leaders because the Teabaggers are clearly overwhelmingly Christian.
FOX has encouraged and promoted the Teabaggers’ events and their expressions of opposition, ignoring or dismissing their violent rhetoric. American Muslims have no such media cheerleader to encourage them.
FOX regularly promotes and injects Christian perspectives on any number of subjects and offers the likes of the American Family Association and Focus on the Family respectful consideration of their violence-tinged screeds.
The Republicans of the house and Senate are exclusively Christian and when Dr Tiller was murdered they spent most of their time arguing about the evils of abortion and dismissing the relevance of American Christianity as a factor.
Now we see Michelle Bachmann and House Minority leader John Boehner publicly and happily embracing the Teabaggers complete with their violent religious rhetoric and symbolism.
The member and leaders of ‘C-Street House’ overwhelmingly Republican and avowedly Christian subscribe to nation that force and violence in the service of God is natural and good.
continued…
November 6th, 2009 at 12:25 pmGeneral Boykin, a Christian serving during the early years of the Afghan/Iraq wars was not condemned by the Christian Republicans for declaring that his mission was a Crusade to kill Muslims.
Blackwater/Xe is run by Erik Prince, a multi-millionaire Christian on a Christian mission that permits the killing of Muslims (whilst making lots of money) d make lots of money whilst doing so).
AN where’s the Christian Catholic church in all this? They support the Republicans who support the anti-abortionists and apologize-for or dissemble-for or defend Christian murderers of doctors and gays, and defend or demur on behalf of Christian rapists.
The Christians have money, political power, real weapons, blind certitude of their righteousness that brooks no argument, and a huge array of pulpits from which to call their congregants literally to arms against those of “illegitimate” faiths and perspectives.
Show me where American Mulsims have the same amount of untouchable power, the same encouragement to satisfy the extremists in their leadership and their ranks.
Religion is a choice. American Christianity is demonstrably organized by principles of bigotry and violence towards others. Condemnations of Christian violence by fellow reasonable Christians are suppressed by its most prominent leaders by many means.
I choose to be a Democrat. Others choose to be Republicans. Both choices permit the rank and file to criticize their party leaders and policies and to change them because the mechanisms are there to do so.
Organized religions offer no such mechanisms, because religious authority si derived from ‘God’, and whoever claims the greatest affinity with ‘God’ the longest and the loudest and most forcefully gets to dictate the nature of ‘God and the nature and practices of the religion.
Christianity or Islam or Judaism or whatever becomes whatever it’s leaders SAY it is, not what it’s congregants might wish it to be. The Pope gets elected once. Pat Robertson and Gerry Falwell don’t face recall referendums or being busted down to private by a plebiscite of their flock when they do or say something that doesn’t comport with the supposedly peaceful and tolerant teachings of Christ or the edicts of ‘God’.
Only one of the hundreds of Christian Catholic priests who have molested children has gone to jail.
The Catholic Church has in every case mixed their official ‘regrets’ with blaming the victims.
The ’sinners’ in their ranks have suffered no sanctions, whilst for example observing Catholics like John Kerry have been threatened with excommunication for having the audacity to support the legality of abortion.
If you don;t hew to what the religious leaders say you can get the hell out of the religion, abandon your faith or start your own religion–you don’t get to change the practices of your relgion form the pew.
The same goes for the Republicans. If you stray from the established order you will be shunned. the GOP is the political arm of the Religious Right, the Religious Rgiht is the ideological arm of the GOP.
TOGETHER they have insisted on having two wars and defended torture. TOGETHER they have declared that gays and liberals deserve death by any and every means. TOGETHER they have declared secularists their enemy, and rejoiced—all as Christians.
Now, is all that “Christian bashing” due to my own, ‘ironic’ prejudices, or do I (and others like me ) have reasonable grounds to criticize and despise American Christianity, and and can you claim that American Mulsim’s have racked up the same litany of extremism such that you find them ironically equivalent?
November 6th, 2009 at 1:02 pmDivided We Fall says: “Do you trust the main stream media for the truth in a story like this? Heck, for any story?”
I do not.
Well, given how they handled Scott Tillman and Jessica Lynch, there’s certainly pause for thought.
November 6th, 2009 at 1:06 pm5th Estate, one other thing about Islam, they forbid interest (usury) of any kind according to the teachings of the Qu’ran unlike Christian nations whose banking institutes and credit card companies thrive on the use of usury although it is condemned in the bible.
November 6th, 2009 at 1:24 pm5th Estate says:
Divided We Fall says: “Do you trust the main stream media for the truth in a story like this? Heck, for any story?”
I do not.
Well, given how they handled Pat Tillman and Jessica Lynch, there’s certainly pause for thought.
————————————————————
Fixed your type (Scott to Pat)
And agree!
November 6th, 2009 at 1:25 pmthanks Uncle Fester!
November 6th, 2009 at 1:55 pmUncle Fester Lurks says: “…one other thing about Islam, they forbid interest (usury)….”
which was what Jesus apparently was so upset about of course, and got him noticed.
Oh one other thing. Jesus said “render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s” but tax-exemption, and thus NOT “rendering unto Caesar” is a teaching of Christ the Christian churches happy to ignore. Their parishioners are urged to tithe, but ‘God forbid’ the Christian establishment even offer a token voluntary tithe to the Government.
November 6th, 2009 at 2:05 pmAbsolutely astounding ! For eight long, horrendous years citizens, Congress people, Representatives agreed to illegal wars, no accountability for a loss 9 BILLION DOLLARS IN IRAQ, deregulations brought down our economy. NO ONE PROTESTED, NO ONE SAID, WAIT A MINUTE. But now healthcare for all will cost too much, clean air will take away jobs and cost too much. Where the hell were these protesters then ????
November 6th, 2009 at 3:08 pmWhich is why I INSIST people who kill people – are equally wrong and not to be equated with their religion..
Can you list any atheists who became serial killers?
November 6th, 2009 at 4:12 pmA new labor report this morning indicates 190,000 jobs were lost last month. Unemployment rose to 10.2 percent in October, the highest rate since April 1983 and “much higher than analysts expected.”
The U-6, underemployed, part time workers … 17.5% …
November 6th, 2009 at 4:30 pmThe former chairman of Citigroup, John S. Reed, apologized for his role in leading the legislative charge that led to the merger that created the megabank. He said it was a mistake for Congress to repeal the Glass-Steagall Act and endorsed the breaking up of big banks.
I am still waiting for Bill Clinton to apologize for signing the bill into law.
November 6th, 2009 at 4:32 pmA new labor report this morning indicates 190,000 jobs were lost last month. Unemployment rose to 10.2 percent in October, the highest rate since April 1983 and “much higher than analysts expected.”
Time to become self-employed.
instead of giving you fish (unemployment checks) show you how to fish (get off the govt. dole.) .. And I want zero excuses as to why you can’t be self-employed. ZERO. .. think and grow rich.
November 6th, 2009 at 5:56 pmlux says“(religion)…is not a path to belief, either.”
Theoretically, the metaphysical philosophy of anything(eg. an object such as ‘path’), from Wittgenstein through the modern phenomenologists, applies to men and women and must be strictly considered as resulting from either analytical or synthetic, processes. IMO this amounts to a ‘give away’ to a vague, aesthetic appeal?! It is rather, a practical conundrum which will always provide for endless ‘chicken or egg’ debates; one will always circumscribe ‘a subject’ which is interesting and which ’sets up’ more debating! However, fully in the first five thousand years of popular philosophies, fundamental ideas (such as Aristotle’s philosophy of ‘happiness and good habits’) did not a priori require conceptual subjegation to either objective-synthesis, OR inversely, objective-analysis!
Directly historically antecedent, there had existed a sublime and relevant literary philosophical problem, (in the writings of Descartes), which defines an unknowable ‘chasm’ between life and death; this has described when the heart stops beating, the brain ceases to conduct electricity, and the rites of burial would normally commence, in a culturally respectful ritual. It was Descartes ‘inaudible’ inference commensurate with a solution to this problem, when he famouly noted, “I think, therefore I am,” which may have merely implied his advice for common sense, when describing human death!
IMO, all paths to belief in life, must begin on some level with professional medical research, with credible opinions, and common sense.
November 7th, 2009 at 9:20 pm