Gingrich Calls NYC Mosque Supporters ‘Hostile To Our Civilization’
Gingrich Calls NYC Mosque Supporters ‘Hostile To Our Civilization’
Last week, Newt Gingrich joined in on the right-wing freak out over plans to build a mosque and Muslim community center near the site of the former World Trade Center in New York City. Strangely arguing that the U.S. should model itself after a non-democratic country, Gingrich said in a statement, “There should be no mosque near Ground Zero in New York so long as there are no churches or synagogues in Saudi Arabia.”
Last night on Fox News, Gingrich seemed to stand by that claim, reiterating, “I’d love to have these folks say, ‘Let’s build a church and a synagogue in Mecca, or rather in Saudi Arabia, and that would balance off our having an interfaith mosque.’” Gingrich went on to say that the organizations behind the project — which are based in New York — are “hostile to our civilization”:
VAN SUSTEREN: The interesting thing is that Sarah Palin came out against it. And Mayor Bloomberg responded, saying that the — that efforts to derail the mosque are un-American.
GINGRICH: See, and I just think that’s baloney. … I like Mike a lot. He’s a very good mayor. I don’t know why he’s taking this position. The idea of a 13-story building set up by a group many of whom, frankly, are very hostile to our civilization — and I’m talking now about the people who organized this, many of whom are apologists for sharia, which is a form of law that I think we cannot allow in this country, period.
Watch it:
TPM’s Eric Kleefeld notes that, in the same interview, Gingrich signaled that a mosque near Central Park would be more appropriate than one near Ground Zero. Matt Yglesias responds by trying to map out the “mosque exclusion zone.”
The downtown Manhattan mosque and community center project is a collaboration between the American Society for Muslim Advancement (ASMA) and the Cordoba Initiative, both of which seek “to elevate the discourse on Islam” and bring “together leaders across the Muslim-West divide to speak out for innovative, proactive, and positive solutions to challenges we share.” And as Van Susteren noted, New York Mayor Mike Bloomberg recently offered support for their effort:
What is great about America and particularly New York is we welcome everybody, and if we are so afraid of something like this, what does that say about us? Democracy is stronger than this. You know the ability to practice your religion was one of the real reasons America was founded. And for us to just say no is just, I think, not appropriate is a nice way to phrase it.
In fact, other city and state politicians stood by ASMA founder Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf’s project. “This is precisely where this kind of center for peace and place of worship should rise up,” New York City Comptroller John Liu said. Moreover, 46 percent of Manhattan voters support the proposal while 36 percent opposed. So according to Gingrich’s logic, these New Yorkers are also by extension “hostile to our civilization.”
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I’m hostile to the claim that Newt Gingrich is civilized.
July 27th, 2010 at 4:15 pmNo offense or anything Grinch, but I think *I’M* probally hostile to your ideal of civilization too.
July 27th, 2010 at 4:15 pmWho is part of the “our civilization” kimosabe?
July 27th, 2010 at 4:17 pmI’m opposed to Wall Street criminals looting the market and the Federal Treasury. Does that make me hostile to Newt’s “civilization?” I sincerely hope so.
July 27th, 2010 at 4:18 pmThe Swiss have voted for a minaret ban lately. The framing of muslims as enemies to our culture is going on all over Europe, too. If I pick any fundamentalist idea, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, they all sound so much the same to me. Hate the others in order to feel superior is their motto. Disgusting really.
July 27th, 2010 at 4:18 pmI honestly think that A LOT of US are hostile to Newtie’s Nation.
Unfriendly’s to Newt and his ilk have knowledge of 3 things:
Reading
Writing
Arithmetic
ALL of us are sworn enemies to these schitheads.
July 27th, 2010 at 4:19 pmIt is utterly irresponsible for evil weasels like Newt to stoke the flames of Islamaphobia for political gain. We already have enough morons in this country who love nothing more than being told who to hate and fear
July 27th, 2010 at 4:19 pmMost nations are hostile to our civilization, what exactly is startling here? However I don’t the think the Islamic people living here peacefully are in that category.
July 27th, 2010 at 4:21 pmHappily, Newt Gingrich has absolutely no say in the matter, nor should he EVER had ANY power to decide this sort of thing unless he moves to New York City (in which case he should have exactly ONE vote).
July 27th, 2010 at 4:22 pmGINGRICH: I like Mike a lot. He’s a very good mayor. I don’t know why he’s taking this position.
Because Mayor Bloomberg actually carea about the people in his city. Unlike you and other GnOPer’s who can give a rat’s *ss about anyone other than themselves.
July 27th, 2010 at 4:22 pmOur civilization is a secular liberal democracy. The only thing hostile to it are right wing extremist and religious zealots like Gingrich that want us to violate our core principles and undermine our secular way of life.
July 27th, 2010 at 4:23 pm@10 carea = cares
July 27th, 2010 at 4:23 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
True
The MESSAGE of none of those religions teach this. Evil men have twisted all three to do so however. THAT I think is the point
July 27th, 2010 at 4:25 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
This comment has been voted down. Click to read.
As detestable as I find Gingrich’s comments, I do not doubt there are people who agree with everything he said. Bloomberg is far more level headed than Gingrich. The issue is one that needs to be dealt with through the city of New York and not some moron southerner, or for that matter any other ones that do not live in NY.
July 27th, 2010 at 4:29 pmTrueLiberty says:
July 27th, 2010 at 4:33 pmYou’re right Eugene, evil twisted men will always distort the truth, they exist in the realm of perverted religion and in the realm of secular humanism which is equally heinous.
–
Before you go off ranting about atheism and secular humanism I suggest you do some research. Start with The drama of atheist humanism by Henri de Lubac.
You know he’s thinking of running for president eh.
Think mama Palin with him as her mentor.
Think I’m joking? ;)
July 27th, 2010 at 4:33 pmDon’t you people know that the GOP is now in charge of what religious groups get to build what and where in this coutnry.
The first ammendment is merely a suggestion until the GOP rules on it.
They sure love that Constitution
July 27th, 2010 at 4:33 pmPolicyNorth says:
You know he’s thinking of running for president eh.
Think mama Palin with him as her mentor.
Think I’m joking? ;)
July 27th, 2010 at 4:35 pm–
America would be so SOL if Newt was elected.
EV (a Critter since 2007and proud of it) says:
The Swiss have voted for a minaret ban lately. The framing of muslims as enemies to our culture is going on all over Europe, too. If I pick any fundamentalist idea, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, they all sound so much the same to me. Hate the others in order to feel superior is their motto. Disgusting really.
—————————————————————
And therein lies the rub. Common denominator? Abrahamic religion’s three basic variants.
What a travesty. I envy my cat — she has no religious burdens, makes the world a lot simpler place. What’s the attraction of vitriolic mythology to so many billions of two leggers?
July 27th, 2010 at 4:35 pmNewt Gingrich is a washed-up, disgraced former Congressman. Only FOX cares what he thinks.
July 27th, 2010 at 4:35 pm@13 so you support Christian fundamentalism? The teachings of Christ do not even slightly resemble the ramblings of Christian fundamentalists, who seem to forget all about the sermon of the mount and preach the old testament instead.
Debs @14, yes, that’s what I’m saying.
July 27th, 2010 at 4:39 pmGINGRICH: See, and I just think that’s baloney. … I like Mike a lot. He’s a very good mayor. I don’t know why he’s taking this position. The idea of a 13-story building set up by a group many of whom, frankly, are very hostile to our civilization — and I’m talking now about the people who organized this, many of whom are apologists for sharia, which is a form of law that I think we cannot allow in this country, period.
July 27th, 2010 at 4:42 pm–
Of course, America isn’t going to become a theocracy unless it’s a Christian theocracy!
TrueLiberty
… the realm of secular humanism which is equally heinous.
————————————————————–
How is secular humanism heinous?
July 27th, 2010 at 4:42 pmLast time I heard these conservatives asshats commenting on NYC they were trashing the Upper West Side. Now these presumptuous “real” Americans are telling us non-”real” Americans what should go where in OUR CITY.
FUGGEDABOUTIT! This is our town and outside of someone building a mosque NEAR your sacred Ground Zero moneymaker lot you pretty much despise us.
So take your goddamn concern troll act and shove it!
July 27th, 2010 at 4:42 pm@24
Yeah, nothing like fanning the flames of ignorance, hate, intolerance and bigotry.
Kinda like taking a stick and whacking a hornet’s nest.
Real smart there MV.
July 27th, 2010 at 4:44 pmWhen newly minted Catholic Newt Gingrich calls on the Pope to allow a mosque to be built in Vatican City I will consider taking his rap about churches in Saudi Arabia seriously.
With all respect to the Netroots straw poll, this is the fool I am hoping the Rs nominate in 2012. Alf Landon will at last have company.
July 27th, 2010 at 4:44 pmOk, Mr. Peabody, let’s set the Way Back machine for 1998. That was the year the Newtster was run out of DC from the 4th highest position in the country, by his own people for being an arrogant dickhead.
Tell me again, why is anyone listening to this nut?
July 27th, 2010 at 4:44 pmSlimy lizard says – …by a group many of whom, frankly, are very hostile to our civilization.
And you heard this from whom Newt? Stormy? Marth V? Onlooker?
Oh, forgot you don’t deal in reality…got it.
Go about your business cheating on your wife, OK?
July 27th, 2010 at 4:47 pmi’m indifferent to the mosque, but hostile to newt.
July 27th, 2010 at 4:47 pmFreedom of Religion is one of our basic tenets as a Republic.
Why does Lizard Boy hate our Constitution?
Never, EVER trust a talking lizard…
July 27th, 2010 at 4:48 pmWhat? I’ll remember when I’m out with Ash and Mukesh tomorrow night having a pint reminding them that they are anti-western civilisation. Then I will point out that Ash owns me a couple of rounds of drinks….
….Ash owes me a couple of rounds of drinks?!?!? It’s true, Muslims are against Western civilisation! They aren’t buying into the round system!
Nuke Mecca. Do it now.
July 27th, 2010 at 4:49 pmThis mosque would be a great big middle finger to Osama bin Laden – a clear message that the US is a patchwork of diverse cultures and religious tolerance that he and his terrorist organization will NEVER destroy. Pick your side, Newt.
July 27th, 2010 at 4:49 pmA secular liberal democracy??? What kind of horse dung is that?
We are a Constitutional Republic. When we cease being a Constitutional Republic, that will be the end of this nation as we know it.
… Those words you have just said senior… I donna not think they mean the words that you think they mean.
July 27th, 2010 at 4:49 pm24. if the is a god then dogs are it’s greatest creation.
July 27th, 2010 at 4:51 pmMartha V. at 4:47 pm
gully foyle, dogs and singing women NOT singing dogs and women.
Can’t we have both? (:-D>
July 27th, 2010 at 4:53 pm37.
This mosque would be a great big middle finger to Osama bin Laden – a clear message that the US is a patchwork of diverse cultures and religious tolerance that he and his terrorist organization will NEVER destroy.
-PLC
That was actually his biggest gripe in the manifesto he sent before he authorized the attack on the USS Cole in October 2000.
July 27th, 2010 at 4:54 pmThe man WANTS a religious war and reminding him that our culture is tolerant and not likely to prevoke one is a thumb in his eye.
PatrioticLiberalChristian says:
This mosque would be a great big middle finger to Osama bin Laden – a clear message that the US is a patchwork of diverse cultures and religious tolerance that he and his terrorist organization will NEVER destroy. Pick your side, Newt.
Spotters badge awarded. You have just hit the nail on the head.
July 27th, 2010 at 4:55 pmI go with Mayor Bloomberg on this one. In fact, we need a mosque in the vicinity of WTC; it’s exactly what is needed to demonstrate that we are NOT like the Saudis, we are NOT like alQaeda.
There’s a clique out there that makes a to-do over “Arab hospitality” or “Bedouin hospitality”; the notion is that those desert folks are welcoming of anyone, but it isn’t so. From observing alQaeda’s behavior in general and the Saudi’s behavior with regard to non-Muslims who are not of some elite business or political class, I think we’d have to say that the idea of Arab hospitality is to welcome you if you’re one of their believers and to stab you in the back or lop off your head if you’re not.
That is antithetical to the notion of America, despite our overabundance of bigots like Newt and other trolls.
July 27th, 2010 at 4:56 pmBloomberg is right. What Newt and Sarah are saying is completely UN-AMERICAN.
July 27th, 2010 at 4:56 pmHouse, if you’ve heard Matha’s voice (nice to see you washed your sock puppet, dearie) you’d just want the singing dogs.
July 27th, 2010 at 4:56 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
I’m from New York City and the thrice married, serial philandering disgraced former Representitive should keep his nose the hell out of My Home, Thank You Very Much! If the people who actually live in the neighborhood have no problems, then MYOB!
July 27th, 2010 at 4:57 pmI could understand if the Mosque was going to be built at ground zero or in a building people fled to in the after math but if this place is blocks away let em build it and if your like Newt smirk at the idea of it being converted into a Church a decade from now.
July 27th, 2010 at 4:58 pmGood thing he’s a former Congressperson and even better that he’s on fox, which means he’s hit bottom with no political future. If he had good ideas that everyone liked, he might still be in power.
July 27th, 2010 at 4:58 pm#24:
Are you gonna sing “Wind Beneath My Wings”?
Hey, I’ve got an old songbook I found in an antique store with a few titles about “darkies,” just in case you need to borrow it.
July 27th, 2010 at 4:58 pmWhat is it with the Republicans? Disgraced former Speaker, resigned midterm governor, former member of Congress changing parties, what? Don’t they have anyone who isn’t an abject failure to lead their cause?
July 27th, 2010 at 5:00 pmCome to think of it, we have 2 kinds of talking lizards.
One sells car insurance, the other sells bullshit.
July 27th, 2010 at 5:01 pmZimzone, Newts aren’t lizards. And this particular Newt doesn’t seem to qualify as human. I heard even the slime molds are protesting his application. The viruses may accept him but everyone knows how low their standards are.
July 27th, 2010 at 5:05 pmA new isn’t a lizard it’s an amphibian and neither want to be connected to Gingrich. ;)
July 27th, 2010 at 5:06 pmNewt Gingrich is comparing NYC to Mecca??? Seriously???
New York City isn’t the center of Christianity. Never was, never will be.
It would be more apropos to compare the building of a church or synagogue next to the Kaaba in Mecca to the building of a mosque or synagogue in Vatican City.
Stuff that Gingrich has failed to consider:
1. Ground Zero in NYC isn’t a religious center. It marks the site of a tragedy that happened at the hands of some violent crackpots with a twisted religious ideology who represented Islam about as accurately as Fred Phelps represents Christianity. Ground Zero doesn’t compare with the Kaaba, the birthplace of Jesus in Bethlehem, the wailing wall, or other religious sites.
2. Mosques are already all over New York City, with over 20 of them in Manhattan alone. Muslims are all over New York City as well, and they have been long before 9/11.
3. Muslims were killed on 9/11 as well as non-Muslims. They and their families were victims. Why must they be equated with terrorists?
Of course, none of this will register on Newt at all. His mission is to pander to bigots. He’s not about to allow facts or reason to mess that up.
July 27th, 2010 at 5:07 pmLOL! I just read Rick (Man on Dog) Santorum is going to announce his intention of running for President in 2012. I hope he puts Screeching Sarah on the ticket, then we can watch them go down in flames.
July 27th, 2010 at 5:07 pmHoodathunk(sponsored by Free Speech for Fish) says:
What is it with the Republicans? Disgraced former Speaker, resigned midterm governor, former member of Congress changing parties, what? Don’t they have anyone who isn’t an abject failure to lead their cause?
No.
July 27th, 2010 at 5:08 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
Is there anyone in the Republican stable that has anything but ‘former’ in front of their claim?
July 27th, 2010 at 5:11 pmTORM stutters!
July 27th, 2010 at 5:12 pmYayyyyy #20! I think it was maybe an unnecessarily brave move to put the proposed Cordoba Center close to Ground Zero, but I definitely defend their right to do it, and would add that, from the sound of some of their plans, it will eventually be a significan contribution to the area… if the screaming bigots don’t destroy it. Give us twenty years and we’ll be proud of it… I hope…
July 27th, 2010 at 5:12 pmi’m pretty sure most people who are against this mosque “2 blocks” from ground zero, think like i did at one time…
i grew up in a smallish town of now 14,000… the first time i went to chicago to visit my daughter, she decided we could walk to the michigan avenue stores from her (then) apartment… “it’s only 2 or 3 blocks”… ok, i say, no problem…
ha!
3-4 of effy’s blocks will fit in ONE of chicago’s…
i’m guessing NYC is much the same…
just sayin’…
July 27th, 2010 at 5:13 pmwhich every university gave this shitstain grungegich his degree in history should revoke it based on the fact he doesn’t know about “freedom of religion”
July 27th, 2010 at 5:13 pmGingrich is a jerk, and the anti-mosque crew is despicable. However, the Muslim religion is one of the most homophobic religions on earth, and has infused their contemptible beliefs in the politics of the Middle East. Prosecution and persecution of gays is the norm as a result of their superstitions.
I am disgusted our government perpetrated an unnecessary war in the middle east and caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people. But as a gay man, I really don’t give a damn about another mosque in New York or the perpetuation of another superstitous religious cult…which is what I believe all of them to be–Catholic, Mormon, Holy Roller, Muslim, whatever.
July 27th, 2010 at 5:14 pmsusancarrie says:
Yayyyyy #20! I think it was maybe an unnecessarily brave move to put the proposed Cordoba Center close to Ground Zero, but I definitely defend their right to do it, and would add that, from the sound of some of their plans, it will eventually be a significan contribution to the area… if the screaming bigots don’t destroy it. Give us twenty years and we’ll be proud of it… I hope…
Indeed. I don’t necessarily agree with having it built there. But that in no way diminishes their right to build it there. And that is actually the beauty of the American system. It’s a shame the right-wingers want to destroy America.
July 27th, 2010 at 5:14 pmA constitutional Republic IS a form of liberal democracy. When will the right stop with the stupid talking point that we are not a democracy. Its wrong and its stupid
July 27th, 2010 at 5:15 pmuh… “think like i did” as it pertains to the distance… only.
July 27th, 2010 at 5:15 pmAs stated above, what would be better than a house of prayer at the site of the WTC destruction ?
But as I believe Newtie, the Muslims are hostile to our country. So we need to strip everything Muslim and Ah-rhab out of our culture and schools.
Algebra
July 27th, 2010 at 5:15 pmCalculus
Astronomy
Revival of Aristotle (and hence St. Thomas Aquinas)
A significant portion of our Physics
etc.
etc.
Kinda goes to show you that Newt and the XianFundie nutwhacks that want to block the mosque know absolutely nothing about how devout Muslims view the world through their faith.
July 27th, 2010 at 5:17 pmwhat part of the first amendment does he NOT understand?
Personally I think Christians place of worship and gathering have a much greater influence on our country than Islamic places.
July 27th, 2010 at 5:17 pmNewt Gingrich doesn’t matter! Is he elected to any office? Was he booted out of congress for doing the same thing he was trying to impeach Clinton for? Has he been married three or four times? Who cares what this self-absorbed, fat ass thinks about anything?
July 27th, 2010 at 5:18 pmAh yes, Cordoba. Northern center of Saracen influence. Now, let’s consider all the Moslem invasions of Europe in the 13th century. How many countries were invaded? Oh, none.
Now how many countries were invaded by the Christian monarchies in the Moslem world? Those pesky Arabs besieging Rome…oh, never happened. Those pesky Europeans besieging Jerusalem, how many times?
Now just who has been the ebil aggressor?
July 27th, 2010 at 5:20 pmfixbone
I have no idea how your comment is in any way relevant to the question of why Newt doesnt understand the first amendment
July 27th, 2010 at 5:20 pmbackup: What I don’t get it this: If the Muslims that are promoting the mosque are striving to repair relationships between Muslims and Christians in the aftermath of 9/11, why don’t they consider the emotions tied to the site and pick a different location to build the mosque?
The “emotions tied to the site” are the whole point. Where better to:
Symbols are important and hiding from them is self-defeating.
July 27th, 2010 at 5:22 pmI can just see Newt if he lived in Massachusetts four hundred years ago…
“We’ll take the Anglicans, and the Quakers, but not the Pilgrims!”
July 27th, 2010 at 5:22 pmWhy are they building a “mosque”? Think about it.
I bet it isn’t for the same reason Rick Warren and all the other fundy preachers do.
July 27th, 2010 at 5:23 pmIs dicking your girlfriend while your wife is sick with cancer a requirement for your civilization, Newt?
July 27th, 2010 at 5:25 pmstorm front do you have a link or are you just lying for the fun of it?
July 27th, 2010 at 5:25 pmSo Shirley Sharrod, a woman whose father was murdered by a white man and who had a cross burned on her front lawn, can’t even think about maybe giving another white man 100% of her help–
–but Americans can vilify people in public and deny them their religious freedom on the basis of an attack most of them saw on teevee?
Who’s entitled to what, now?
Hey, ‘they want to kill us!’, right?
July 27th, 2010 at 5:28 pmb-kkklansman, no one is “championing” anything other than constitutional guarantees of freedom of religion. You know, “American values” and “Constitutional rights” to freedom of religion that includes pagan and atheist rights as well?
Wow, you are truly a racist sh!tbag concern troll d**chebag dishonest loser…
July 27th, 2010 at 5:29 pmWhile progressives champion Muslim mosque building, they should keep one on the intolerance that monotheism (to include Islam) tends to foster.
Put a sock puppet in it. Quit with the ‘if you do it for one, do it for all’ crap. When was the last time anyone complained about a Xtian house of worship being built anywhere in the US?
July 27th, 2010 at 5:29 pmb-kkklansman, you perpetuate the sins of racism and ignorance and until you cease you will be ridiculed for hypocrisy and bigotry.
July 27th, 2010 at 5:31 pm71. fixbone says:
Personally I think Christians place of worship and gathering have a much greater influence on our country than Islamic places.
you mean NEGATIVE influence, right?
i have to agree, for the most part…
July 27th, 2010 at 5:31 pmBackup–
I appreciate your thoughtful remarks. I believe that the defense of freedom of religion is vital to the extent that it protects your and my right, as well, to be skeptical and not to have to bow to the (irrational) beliefs of a superstitious majority. And to that extent, it is important that we defend the rights of those with whom we disagree–like the homophobic Muslims, Catholics, Orthodox Jews, Baptists, etc–ad nauseam.
But for me, I will pick some of my battles. And I will not pick the ones where, for politicallly inflammatory reasons, one of these cults decides to cause a stir and make some headlines. I am going to let them fight that one on their own, and save my blood pressure for some battle that I believe may be more worthwhile.
July 27th, 2010 at 5:32 pm“When was the last time anyone complained about a Xtian house of worship being built anywhere in the US?”
some atheists do that very thing frequently.
Others have actual lives.
July 27th, 2010 at 5:34 pmKeep all religions away from the sacred money grubbing ground of the twin towers.
July 27th, 2010 at 5:36 pmb-kkklansman, I think you are a dumphukkk.
July 27th, 2010 at 5:36 pmb-kkklansmen think people should submit their rights because of the bigotry of others? Wow, no wonder she spent all last week attacking the NAACP and defending the KKKlan…
July 27th, 2010 at 5:37 pmPersonally, I’d like to see Ward Churchill set up a lecture center on the site.
July 27th, 2010 at 5:40 pmbackup: I question the determinedness of pursuing the project over loud objections, but maybe promoters feel that what will be gained is worth the temporary misunderstanding or derision.
First of all, screw loud objections. The First Amendment trumps all that noise, period.
Second of all, take a few minutes to look at the website, or check the news. In addition to the loud objections from jerkwads like Newt, there is wide support from the City, from Jews and Christians, and from the local community.
And third, it’s not “a mosque”. It’s a huge community center which includes a mosque.
Cordoba was one of the most fascinating cities in European history, and one of the cultural and scientific centers of the world, smack in the middle of the Dark Ages. There’s a reason that name has been chosen for the project.
July 27th, 2010 at 5:41 pmUntil the honest, day-to-day followers of Jesus start to use their voice, the Old Testament zealots will be the voice of Christianity in the US. That small percentage of radicals will drive the conversation.
And the silent majority will just have to accept they have been coopted and burned by the zealots.
And the same process applies in the Muslim world. When you let the crazies speak for you, you will be deemed crazy as well.
July 27th, 2010 at 5:42 pmb-kkklansman, the topic is freedom of religion in the US where it is constitutionally guaranteed. Your deflection to unrelated topics and foreign countries is specious and just more “concern trolling” bullsh!t…
July 27th, 2010 at 5:43 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
Would you also agree that countries that prohibit that freedom are less tolerant?
I’ll let you know when the US decides to follow its basic precepts. The world is watching.
July 27th, 2010 at 5:44 pmStorm, Cordoba was actually the capital of Moorish Spain, a bright center of science, reason and intellectual freedom for Jews, Muslims and Christians that lived there during the dark ages for anti-science and anti-reason Christian Europe.
FYI, that territory that was conquered by Christian Rome and forced to give up traditional religions or be murdered as pagans.
If you want to stretch back and point fingers at religious atrocities, you’ll lose princess!
July 27th, 2010 at 5:46 pmcd (temp spokesman for satan) says:
“When was the last time anyone complained about a Xtian house of worship being built anywhere in the US?”
some atheists do that very thing frequently.
Others have actual lives.
July 27th, 2010 at 5:48 pm–
Yup. As an atheist, I could care less about what religious moderates do (Christian, Muslim or anything else), it’s the extremists in the religious communities who use their church as a bully pulpit to push their political agendas (look at Randall Terry for example) who I oppose.
cd (temp spokesman for satan) says:
“When was the last time anyone complained about a Xtian house of worship being built anywhere in the US?”
some atheists do that very thing frequently.
I’ve never heard of atheists protesting the construction of a church, except when it was on federal land and in violation of the separation of church and state.
Care to cite an example?
July 27th, 2010 at 5:49 pmThis comment has been voted down. Click to read.
Hoodathunk
When was the last time anyone complained about a Xtian house of worship being built anywhere in the US?
—————————————————————
For me, the last time was in the early seventies. I was a young fella then, had just bought my first house in a peaceful corner of north Phoenix, AZ, a block from what was soon to become the Phoenix Mountains Preserve. Then word came down that some idiot had donated several acres to a freakin’ church, and that they were going to build a church, school, and ‘motel’ of some sort to house visiting clergy. Right there, a block up the road, right where the road ended and the desert began. The whole neighborhood got up in arms, and we all fought the buggers, petitioned the City Council, all that crap. We lost. They built the goddamn thing. Destroyed several acres of desert, brought in daily traffic, and ruined what was once a pristine area, all to sate the ego of the butthead preacher that ran the place for a few years — until his wife caught him dicking around with other women. He resigned and left, but the monstrosity stayed. Still’s there, last I looked.
IOW: churches are apparently free to intrude everywhere and anywhere they want regardless of what local residents say. I say it’s only fair that mosques are free to enjoy the same privilege, esp. when it’s Christians they piss off in the process.
July 27th, 2010 at 5:53 pmDuh, duh dunnnnn, no one expects the Muslim Inquistion.
I guess that’s because, there never was one. Now in Europe, there were Inquisitions until the middle of the 19th century.
July 27th, 2010 at 5:54 pm“Cordoba,” in Islamic symbolic terms, means Islamic rule in the West. It does not mean “coexistence,” unless coexistence is interpreted as referring to Islamic rule.
You mean is was those damn Arabs that built the Chrysler Cordoba back in the sixties and seventies? THOSE BUGGERS! How bad is THAT??! Boy, I’m sure glad I never bought one! I’d probably be riding a camel today if I had!
Good grief, how goddamned stupid can you get?
July 27th, 2010 at 5:56 pmStormfront,
Thanks for the link to the Cordoba Initiative’s website.
I didn’t find any information linking its name to a Muslim conquest -by which you were probably trying to promote fear- but I did find this:
“[ Tea Party leader Mark Williams]’s spewing of racial hatred reminds me…of Adolph Hitler,” Borough President Scott Stringer said at Thursday’s press conference. “We reject him. We reject his bigotry.”
So it seems the community center has plenty of local support.
July 27th, 2010 at 5:57 pmCare to cite an example?
There was some fuss around Portland years back, and at other locations where the LDS was erecting temples, but I think it was more about the grandiose nature of the structures than anything else. I personally like them more than the “factories for Jesus” approach to mega-churches that Fundies produce.
And without this, there would have been no setup for the marvelous overpass graffiti that keeps reappearing near the DC temple: “Surrender Dorothy!”
July 27th, 2010 at 5:59 pmbackup says
July 27th, 2010 at 5:13 pm
What I don’t get it this: If the Muslims that are promoting the mosque are striving to repair relationships between Muslims and Christians in the aftermath of 9/11, why don’t they consider the emotions tied to the site and pick a different location to build the mosque?
Just because they have the right; doesn’t means it’s a good idea in regards to repairing relationships between the two religions.
____________________________________________________________
It’s my understanding that the reason Muslims want to build their center two blocks away from Ground Zero is not because they want to stick it to anyone, but because that’s where their property is. And property is hard to come by in Manhattan. “Picking a different location” isn’t as easy as you think it is. Do you have a comparable parcel of property in southern Manhattan to donate?
Second thing to consider is that Manhattan is an extremely densely populated place. Two blocks away is a fairly long distance there, and no reasonable person walking through the area would associate any site with another one two blocks away.
Third thing to consider is that American Muslims have been bending over backward to “repairing relationships” with their non-Muslim neighbors ever since 9/11, and have received very little from non-Muslims in kind. They’ve worked hard, with local outreach programs, mosque open houses, seminars to educate others about Islam, and various “Muslims Against Terrorism” demonstrations and rallies. American Muslims have been expected by the rest of the country to denounce terrorism with their every breath — and I can think of no other religion in this country where so much apology has been required from the mainstream for their fringe whackos. It’s not fair to lay all the responsibility for “repairing relationships” on the Muslim community.
Personally, I think the proposed Muslim center is a great idea. Not only will it provide a positive addition to the community, but acceptance of it by the neighborhood will go a long way toward “repairing relationships”. And, as pointed out by others on this thread, it will poke a giant hole in Osama bin Laden’s argument that we Westerners are hateful and intolerant.
July 27th, 2010 at 5:59 pmbackup: You could charge that it was named due to it’s relative enlightenment in the Dark Ages.
“Relative enlightenment?”
Jesus, backup, sometimes you display the most appalling ignorance.
July 27th, 2010 at 6:03 pmAnd what does Madrid mean? Cadiz? Barcelona? And just how did Islam make inroads into Spain and Sicily? Care to cite the invasions and battles? Want to bet they all refer to the Europeans trying to take things back?
Face it, Islam never ‘invaded’ Europe with military force. Ever. Europe used military force to eject them.
July 27th, 2010 at 6:04 pmAlternate headline: Gingrich Admits Religions are ‘Hostile To Our Civilization.’
.
backup says:
Would you also agree that countries that prohibit that freedom are less tolerant?
Absolutely. Countries that favor only one kind of religion and oppress others are less tolerant than countries that don’t. Many of the muslims who move to America do so because they were considered to practice the “wrong kind” of Islam in their home country. That’s true for the rest of the religions as well, going all the way back to the Plymouth Rock.
July 27th, 2010 at 6:04 pmVAN SUSTEREN: The interesting thing is that Sarah Palin came out against it.
What is interesting about that? Palin is nothing, if not predictable. It would have been mind blowing if she had come out in support of the mosque.
July 27th, 2010 at 6:08 pm@58 Storm says: The mosque is going to be called the Cordoba House, so named after Cordoba, Spain, the capital of Muslim conquerors
July 27th, 2010 at 6:12 pm————————————-
That is so scary that I am gonna get my concealed-carry permit! I thought the Cordoba was a Chrysler model line with fine corrintian leather apolstry.
ElBruce says:
Alternate headline: Gingrich Admits Religions are ‘Hostile To Our Civilization.’
————————————————————–
That one I could buy. Religions, particularly the Abrahamics, are a disease, a scourge. They teach hatred and intolerance. The world would be better off (and probably much more peaceful) without them.
July 27th, 2010 at 6:12 pm“Cordoba,” in Islamic symbolic terms, means Islamic rule in the West. It does not mean “coexistence,” unless coexistence is interpreted as referring to Islamic rule.
So, just exactly how did all the native inhabitants feel about the Christian division of the New World? I’m sure they just totally embraced the Catholic rule and had no complaints when the Euros came to call.
July 27th, 2010 at 6:14 pmStorm plagiarizes and posts propaganda bigotry racist bullsh!t? Shokkker!
July 27th, 2010 at 6:14 pmGlad the Muslims don’t want to call the mosque “Trojan Horse”.
July 27th, 2010 at 6:16 pmHoodathunk, Christians could live freely in Cordoba under Muslim rule, however when Ferdie and Izzy took over they forced conversion of Muslims and Jews with the Inquisition and anyone that didn’t convert to XTianity was murdered.
I’d say if Cordoba has any “symbolic” meaning, it would be where XTians show absolute intolerance in the 15th/16th and 21st century.
July 27th, 2010 at 6:16 pmbleepin, Islam has a long tradition of tolerance and acceptance. Both Spain and Sicily were proof of that. Just as how the Europeans treated the natives in the Americas is proof of their tolerance.
July 27th, 2010 at 6:19 pmTea party klan folk and other conservative groups are adamant that there are no mosques erected near Ground Zero and elsewhere, because any symbol suggesting that most Muslims are peaceful, God-loving members of society conflicts with their attempt to portray Islam as a violent, malevolent cult bent on destroying all of Western civilization.
July 27th, 2010 at 6:21 pmThe amazing part is the ever-increasing level of xenophobic hatred. One would think they would at least pause for breath but they keep doubling down at every turn. Of course, they aren’t really afraid the the Mosque will harbor criminals. They are afraid that the place will go about it’s daily business and no one will ever really notice them. They’ll prove to be good citizens.
The Reichwhiners can’t have that. They can’t stand the remotest possibility that this Mosque will invalidate their blind hatred of Islam.
July 27th, 2010 at 6:21 pmCalling Europe civilized during the Dark Ages is ethnocentric whooey. I don’t think Europe started to be civilized until around 1950 and then its sort of catch as catch can.
The US still hasn’t even reached that level.
July 27th, 2010 at 6:28 pmSTORMfront is a racist moron. His ignorance is the fiddle vile weasels like Newt play. The world and the human race have no chance whatsoever of long term survival if civilization is heavily influenced by such small minds and such stunted psuedosouls.
July 27th, 2010 at 6:32 pm“Yup. As an atheist, I could care less about what religious moderates do (Christian, Muslim or anything else), it’s the extremists in the religious communities who use their church as a bully pulpit to push their political agendas (look at Randall Terry for example) who I oppose.”
Well said.
While I am ok with Churches pushing agenda’s they had better make sure they are in accordence with Christs teaching and not their wishes.
What’s more should they desire these teaching to be made into law they need to explain the secular-ish reason that gave rise to the teaching.
i.e. It wouldn’t make sense for God to give us random rules now would it?
July 27th, 2010 at 6:34 pmbackup says:
Jesus, backup, sometimes you display the most appalling ignorance.
guilty, but what I was trying to say was that Cordoba was enlightened by comparison to the rest of (or Christian) Europe during the Dark Ages.
Isn’t that right?
Yes, but the way you wrote it diminishes the accomplishment; Cordoba and Al-Andalus weren’t paragons in comparison to the relative disaster of Europe, but in comparison to any other period in human history. There’s a decent synopsis over at Wikipedia, although I seem to recall prompting you to read Hourani’s History of the Arab Peoples, quite some time ago.
I’m inclined to give them a pass just on the basis of one building.
July 27th, 2010 at 6:34 pm“I don’t think Europe started to be civilized until around 1950″
Ya know I can be pretty critical of Europe but they were producing Nobel prize winning scientists long before 1950.
July 27th, 2010 at 6:36 pmbackup, we are about 3 points above primitive.
We still make decisions based on mythology.
We perceive our citizens in categories related to physical phenomenon versus worth.
We still lie to ourselves about our motives for doing things.
We still let a major portion of our population suffer while an incredibly small portion lives in luxury.
We still have no concept of the reality of our environment.
We still think that making money is a valid reason to exist even though money has no proven value.
We still play our ego games in spite of the evidence that says they are blatant lies.
In other words, we are Americans.
July 27th, 2010 at 6:38 pmHere’s an idea. Build a mosque, a synagogue and a church all within a block of the ex-WTC. Then, the clergy of each house of worship can do their Martin Luther King impersonations and urge people of mutually incompatible faiths to hold hands and pay united homage to the very force that caused the problem in the first place.
July 27th, 2010 at 6:40 pm“OUR” civilization? With those words Gingrich reveals his racism, his hatred of any other religion, his disdain for anyone not white & male. There is no “our” civilization, you idiot, Gingrich. We are ALL in it together.
July 27th, 2010 at 6:41 pmYa know I can be pretty critical of Europe but they were producing Nobel prize winning scientists long before 1950.
And still fighting wars with their neighbors. A prize from someone who invented dynamite is kind of strange. I give Alfred credit for wanting to try and repair the damage he had done.
July 27th, 2010 at 6:42 pmSTORM babbles:
Cordoba was, of course, the seat of the caliphate established blah blah blah [insert your favorite xenophobic boogie man here]
It is also one of the most beautiful cities in Spain (the Catholic king & queen at the time did not change the city’s name), as well as a world heritage center.
From your link:
Cordoba, city professed as Humanity heritage by UNESCO in 1984, has been converted into a cultural reference in Europe and, of course, in Spain.
There is no way to deduce that “Cordoba means Islamic rule in the West”, either from historical sources or from the information in the web sites you linked to.
On the contrary, it seems the name Cordoba represents everything you are not: Tolerance, culture, and higher learning. It’s no wonder you have a problem with it.
July 27th, 2010 at 6:46 pmEurope had produced:
July 27th, 2010 at 6:49 pmRoger Bacon
Nicolaus Copernicus
Francis Bacon
Johannes Kepler
Blaise Pascal
Robert Boyle
and Isaac Newton and all before 1700.
“Cordoba means Islamic rule in the West”
On the contrary, it seems the name Cordoba represents everything you are not: Tolerance, culture, and higher learning.
And just why do you think Xtian society hates and fears Islam?
July 27th, 2010 at 6:50 pm“…and I’m talking now about the people who organized this, many of whom are apologists for sharia, which is a form of law that I think we cannot allow in this country, period.”
____________________________________________________________
Jeez, Newt — do you have any idea how stupid you sound? I mean — “apologists for sharia”??? Seriously???
Calling a Muslim an “apologist” for sharia law makes about as much sense as calling a Jew an “apologist” for mosaic law. Both merely refer to the rules believers in the faith are expected to adhere to in the way they live their lives.
A “form of law that I think we cannot allow in our country”??? The only reason Newt is phrasing it this way is to imply that what Muslims want is for their religious laws to be the laws of our land. No Muslim group has ever even suggested such a thing, just as no Jews have never demanded that mosaic law be forced on the rest of the country (if either set of laws became civil law, not only would it be a flagrant violation of the establishment clause of the first amendment, but the entire pork industry in this country would bite the dust).
I doubt seriously that Newt Gingrich knows much about sharia law. But he doesn’t think he needs much education in this department. All he thinks he needs to know is that “sharia law” is a scaaaaaaaaaaary term he can use to conjure up a boogeyman in the minds of the kool-aid drinkers.
July 27th, 2010 at 6:54 pmAnd they mostly got their chops from the works of Arabic scholars, cd. Claim European supremacy all you want but they learned from the Arabs. Math, science, medicine all came from North Africa.
July 27th, 2010 at 6:56 pmEurope had produced:
Roger Bacon
Nicolaus Copernicus
Francis Bacon
Johannes Kepler
Blaise Pascal
Robert Boyle
and Isaac Newton and all before 1700.
Does this sound like an uncivilized place to you?
July 27th, 2010 at 6:56 pmLet me guess the ancient greeks learned everything from the Arabs as well?
July 27th, 2010 at 6:58 pmAlternate Headline: “Newt Gingrich Opposes Any Religion Being Allowed to Build Houses of Worship if Anyone From That Religion Advocates Any Form of Religious Law.”
See how that plays in the Bible Belt, Newt.
July 27th, 2010 at 7:00 pmcd, neither Europe nor North Africa and the Middle East did everything. It was a mixed bag. They got some things right, we got somethings right. The problem is accreditation has suffered over the years.
July 27th, 2010 at 7:01 pmThink the Native Americans will give them a hand. You know, just a kinda FU to the rule set up by the White Man.
July 27th, 2010 at 7:02 pmc, all those people you posted could not have posited a single thing without 0.
July 27th, 2010 at 7:02 pm“cd, neither Europe nor North Africa and the Middle East did everything.”
Is that your way of saying “no” to the question I asked?
July 27th, 2010 at 7:04 pmI say let them build it so the family members of the 3,000 killed on 9/11 have a shiny gold dome to post pictures of their loved ones on.
July 27th, 2010 at 7:08 pmbackup, the US has never stood for democracy or equality.
We raped this continent in the name of greed.
We denied citizens on many levels equal rights for years.
We used child labor.
We used immigrant labor.
We took 60 years to end slavery.
We took another 100 years to clear out some of the last slavery crap.
We took over 100 years to give women the vote.
We have supported more totalitarian thugs than anyone in history.
We have, after 234 years, still got a strong racist segment to our population.
Open your eyes. America has seldom done anything for altruistic reasons.
July 27th, 2010 at 7:08 pmA_More_Perfect_Union says
July 27th, 2010 at 7:08 pm
I say let them build it so the family members of the 3,000 killed on 9/11 have a shiny gold dome to post pictures of their loved ones on.
_____________________________________________________________
Muslim workers died alongside non-Muslim workers in the WTC on 9/11, you moron.
July 27th, 2010 at 7:11 pmI didn’t realize that Russia, China or North Korea were muslim.
July 27th, 2010 at 7:16 pmbackup
Sure they do but WE are defined, and are most responsible for what WE do and the easily understood consequences of OUR actions. For that reason we need to be MORE concerned about OUR actions and pointing to the actions of others is just a convienient way to AVOID that.
July 27th, 2010 at 7:20 pmb-kkklansman, peddle your racist, bigoted concern trolling elsewhere you sh!tbag loser.
July 27th, 2010 at 7:27 pmb-kkklansman, Islam believes in Satan and angels. Those are Babylonian pagan gods. So no, Islam like XTianity and Judaism are not monotheistic, they’re pagan.
July 27th, 2010 at 7:28 pmHooda, a clear-eyed objective analysis would demonstrate that just about any country in the world has done many of the same things, and many others that are as bad or worse. I think the only thing that allows the U.S. to approach “greatness” is that we hold it to a higher standard. But doing so inevitably leads to a whole helluva lot of disappointment.
July 27th, 2010 at 7:28 pmSorry, but the other countries did that too is a weak argument when the US claims some sort of moral superiority. Every freaking civilization has played fast and loose while building their power.
What I am saying is, no country or civilization gets to claim sainthood or superiority just for the reasons you have said. Civilization is an ongoing process with contributions from everyone. China gave us gunpowder and spaghetti and who knows what else. India, Egypt, Greece, Peru, the list is endless. Everyone has contributed and it is time to acknowledge it.
Galileo couldn’t have ‘discovered’ what he did without the contributions of Arabic math. Every new discovery claimed in Europe probably had some link to somewhere else.
And every government has done what it felt it had to to exist. Good or bad. No one holds the prize for either. Some were better at one or the other. The problem is we have been at it long enough, have enough records that we should be able to do things better. The US has tried but we aren’t alone. More and more countries are learning.
We used to be a whole lot better at it than we are today. I suspect history will look back and see the post WWII period as our zenith. The Marshall Plan was what American is supposed to be about. Not surprising that the 50’s were one of our most prosperous periods. And our last one.
July 27th, 2010 at 7:43 pmHoodathunk(sponsored by Free Speech for Fish) says:
Sorry, but the other countries did that too is a weak argument..
Personally, I think the only claim to “greatness” that the U.S. really gets to make is a historical one. Before we existed, the concept of a functioning democracy was an unproven, pie-in-the-sky ideal. “Everybody knew” that you simply cannot run a country without having some form of monarchy. Democracy had been unworkable since Ancient Greece. Now most countries across the world have at least some democratic institutions. We did that. That was awesome.
However, something that conservatives should take note of is that so-called “blame America first” liberals only do so because we do hold America to a higher standard than others. We actually want America to be as good as they like to say it is. To walk the talk.
I would argue to such conservatives that to fail to hold America to a higher standard is to do it far more of a discredit than to maintain high expectations of it. They would be perfectly happy to turn America into a genocidal fascist regime, so long as it “wins” against others. I can think of nothing more contemptuous to the ideals we were purportedly founded on. IMO, every neocon begins his day by wiping his ass with the flag.
While it is still the case that on the whole the U.S. hasn’t been better or worse than most other nations (particularly past imperial powers), that’s not good enough for progressives. We demand better. And that includes me.
But I’m a little more clear-eyed about it than many, I think. I always feel a little twinge of pity when young idealists first discover that the land of the free and the home of the brave has rarely been either. I got over my brow-beating remorse on that issue some time ago. Anymore, I don’t see much to be gained by shaking my mighty fist of condemnation at America from the top of my personal high horse.
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Ok, how near to the WTC is too close? Newt, what distance criteria shall be used to determine the acceptable “hurts people’s feelings” distance? 2, 3, 4, 5 blocks away? No, too close. 6, 7, 8, 9 blocks? Too close. 10 blocks away? OK that’s far enough, that shouldn’t bother anybody.
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July 27th, 2010 at 8:10 pm-
Slightly and then rapidly the mind goes — as we see in goofball gin Grinch, then it’s down the chute, Newt.
-
July 27th, 2010 at 8:37 pmAnd, they’re really people out and about that support this clown?? HOW?? WHO?? WHY??
This man is a crime against humanity… and should be jailed!!!
July 27th, 2010 at 8:57 pmbackup says:
It’s not an excuse to ignore failings.
I think that you, I and Hoodathunk are completely in agreement on this point.
July 27th, 2010 at 9:14 pmNewt Gingrich is still pissed at New Yorkers all these years because the Daily News portrayed him as a crybaby back in 1995.
http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/blpic-newtcrybaby.htm
July 27th, 2010 at 10:43 pmNewtie, still thinks only Christian American’s died on 9-11….so he should tell that to the families that lost their loved ones who were not only Christian but Muslim,Jewish,Bhuddist,Deist and Atheist who happened to be Americans.
July 27th, 2010 at 11:56 pmMarfa WideX5 @ 116; sometimes backup is up, sometimes he’s down – depends on how much “concern” he’s passing around. But why, Marfa, why, did you go off topic. You were squealing about the proposed mosque, remember? Well, I have an off topic comment just for you.
Don’t worry your little ol’ head, Marfa. We’ll protect you from that mosque. What’s more, we’ll protect you from those nasty old Ay-Rabs, too – well, unless one or two of them “white slavers” want you for their harem and they’re willing to pony up enough cash, yanno? Gotta keep that free enterprise system rolling, yanno?
July 28th, 2010 at 1:08 am.
CAN SOMEONE, ANYONE ASK NEWT HOW HE THOUGHT ADVOCATING FOR PRESIDENT BUSH TO ALLOW “REMINDER ATTACKS” ISN’T HOSTILE TO OUR CIVILIZATION?
AND PLEASE, FOLLOW IT UP WITH ASKING ABOUT HOW HE THINKS HAVING A ROGUE CIA VIOLATE OUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS ISN’T HOSTILE TO OUR CIVILIZATION?
PLEASE?
THIS MAN IS ON RECORD ADVOCATING THAT IT IS A GOOD IDEA THAT ANOTHER US CITY BE ATTACKED AND AMERICANS DIE!
THIS MAN IS ON RECORD ADVOCATING VIOLATING AMERICANS BASIC CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS!
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5lmje_newt-gingrich-bush-should-allow-rem_news
.
July 28th, 2010 at 1:08 amCordoba (the city) was a center of learning and (more or less) enlightenment, however, it has also been the prize of many conquerors, before and after the Caliphate. It was captured in 711 by an Arab army from the Visigoths who had captured it in the 6th Century.
Here’s a relatively decent canned history;
Cordoba
July 28th, 2010 at 1:28 amMax Anax junius 1 (BOYCOTT BP) says:
CAN SOMEONE, ANYONE ASK NEWT…
*ahem*
Good point, though.
July 28th, 2010 at 1:41 amHoodathunk, I hope you didn’t take backup’s bait @ 130.
Backup, what makes you think any one people or nation have achieved a status worthy of being called civilized? People like to puff themselves up and call themselves that, but by and large, they aren’t. There’s always something stupid or nasty going on that they try to sweep under a rug and act like it isn’t there. The three or four “great” civilizations, which are called that by virtue of having been around longer than most of the others; ie, China, Egypt, the Mesopotamian basin culture (Iraq, etc), the Indus and Gangetic cultures, all have enough thuggery and viciousness at the margins to be disqualified from being civilized. They’ve just been there a while. All the newer nation states have demonstrated a reasonable amount of uncivilized behavior, too, so you probably basically won’t really find “civilized” anywhere.
About the best you can do is find “peaceable”; Switzerland, Luxembourg, and Liechtenstein, and a couple of other small states might qualify, except that Switzerland does have a military past, and most of the European “princely” states are heirs to some kind of medieval nastiness of one authoritarian sort or another. They just haven’t started any wars or feuds lately.
I just mention the European mini-states because I’m a little more familiar with their general history than I am of the Asian or African minor states. Of course, the small American nation states have had a fair amount of craziness, certainly starting with the European conquest, but surely before that, as well. It’s reasonably evident that the Mayan city states alternated between war and trade, etc, and there was something going on with the Inca in that regard too. The Aztecs weren’t exactly peaceful, either.
There’s no good reason to believe that people, anywhere, regardless of culture or ethnicity, are civilized, except in a limited sense of the word.
July 28th, 2010 at 1:48 amHoodathunk(sponsored by Free Speech for Fish) says:
And what does Madrid mean? Cadiz? Barcelona? And just how did Islam make inroads into Spain and Sicily? Care to cite the invasions and battles? Want to bet they all refer to the Europeans trying to take things back?
Face it, Islam never ‘invaded’ Europe with military force. Ever. Europe used military force to eject them.
July 27th, 2010 at 6:04 pm Vote Up | Vote Down | (2) | Report Abuse
About the whole issue: I’m in favor of peaceful religious centers, and cult assembly is a right in Spain, too. Barcelona, the city where I live, has a strong muslim community, and always has been an important token of mediterranean, and world, multiculturalism. You can find muslim assembly centers not even a block away of our gothic era cathedral, Santa María del Mar.
Fact is, muslims invaded the Iberian Peninsula with military forces, initially a measly army of around 10,000 to 15,000 berber raiders, recently islamized, who somehow (there doesn’t exist almost any contemporary chronicles) managed to defeat the existing visigoth forces in 711. Then, after the surprising victory, the Ummayad governor of North Africa, seeing the favorable conditions, continued the invasion until muslim forces were stopped at Poitiers, France, in 732. Then began the Reconquista, a long struggle by the remaining zones of the Iberian Peninsula not conquered to recover the lost terrain, lasted eight centuries.
For the ones who don’t know, Visigoths were the predominant center european tribe in the Iberian Peninsula that prevailed after the center european tribes invasion of Southern Europe, but not the only ones, crushing the remains of the Old Roman Empire. There were also Vandals (who continued to North Africa, and gave us the “vandalize” verb), Franks (who remained in France, forming later the Holy Roman Empire, the Ostrogoths, who invaded the Italian Peninsula…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Invasions_of_the_Roman_Empire_1.png
Therefore, in 711, the Iberian Peninsula was a set of small fiefdoms, easily conquerable.
And yes, the muslims gave us a great deal of knowledge. Europe was culturally sinking after the fall of the Old Roman Empire, and the barbarian invasions, but the influx of oriental culture brought by muslims, from Mesopotamian terrace cultures, to mathematics treaties from all around the world, from India to Greece, and many others, sciences that not only were brought, but developed by muslims themselves (Algebra is word and mathematics camp where one of the main fathers is Muhammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmi. Sound familiar? His name is the origin of the denomination “Algorithm”.
But not only in the muslim world the expansion of the religion originated a cultural spring. In the christian side, it also sparked innovation and a resurgence of culture. A good example is King Alfonso X of Castile, “The Wise”.
From the beginning of his reign, Alfonso employed Jewish, Christian and Muslim scholars at his court, primarily for the purpose of translating books from Arabic into Castilian, which had the effect of fixing the forms of the Spanish language. Most of these books survive in only one manuscript and were almost certainly created for the private use of Alfonso and his inner circle, which included Jewish and Christian courtiers. The first translation, commissioned by his brother, Fernando de la Cerda—who had extensive experience, both diplomatic and military, among the Muslims of southern Iberia and north Africa—was a Castilian version of the animal fable Kalila wa-Dimna,[6] a book that belongs to the genre of wisdom literature labeled Mirrors for Princes: stories and sayings meant to instruct the monarch in proper and effective governance.
A last wink to my american friends:
As a ruler, Alfonso showed legislative capacity, and a wish to provide the kingdoms expanded under his father with a code of laws and a consistent judicial system. The Fuero Real was undoubtedly his work. He began medieval Europe’s most comprehensive code of law, the Siete Partidas, which, however, thwarted by the nobility of Castile, was only promulgated by his great-grandson. Because of this, and because the Partidas remain fundamental law in the American Southwest, he is one of the 23 lawmakers depicted in the House of Representatives chamber of the United States Capitol.
July 28th, 2010 at 3:57 pmYet again, a wingnut shows up in the middle of sohbet odaları a Soros-controlled TP thread to complain that TP isn’t çilingir a comprehensive news site covering all stories that anybody might consider worthy sohbet of merit.
Protip: TP, aşk şiirleri as the blog for the Center for çilingir American Progress, only inlcludes pieces that demonstrate that Republicans are evil or stupid.
July 29th, 2010 at 8:23 ambackup @ 183, I’m certainly not dismissing the positive aspects of our experience, nor am I saying that mankind’s efforts in this world are wholely negative. In fact, on the whole, our present situation is more civilized than not (maybe), but it’s really easy to slide into viciousness and craziness that is in no way civilized. In a “globalized” world, it’s not difficult for our great nation to be drawn in; the history of the 20th Century, especially from mid-1914 to around 1975 or thereabouts, is fully indicative of how short the distance from civilized to barbaric.
“Centuries of experience” is something we should all be prepared to mock, backup. As a nation, we have less than three centuries of experience and the time we’ve spent out of that as a civilized people is even shorter. Does a civilized people keep slaves? Does a civilized people commit genocide against it’s own indigenous population? In fact, does a civilized people declare that a land with an indigenous population is “empty” and set forth to colonize it and destroy or assimilate the indigenes?
On the other hand, for those of us who stem, for the most part, from European stock, from European cultures, we’re just carrying on in the usual fashion, patting ourselves on the back with one hand for our civilized attitudes, while stabbing someone else in the back and pulling a rug over them to hide the body with the other.
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