Kerry Emanuel calls Climategate “the latest in a series of coordinated, politically motivated attacks that represent an aggravated assault on scholarship

Slams Lindzen, Singer and Happer as liars

MIT atmospheric scientist Kerry Emanuel has been at the forefront of trying to explain many aspects of climate science to the public, especially in his field of expertise — hurricanes.  He has written a good essay on the hacked emails, ” ‘Climategate’: A Different Perspective,” originally published at the National Association of Scholars [NAS] website.  Near the end, he notes:

While the climategate email authors are castigated for not being paragons of virtue, the sins of others go unremarked. In the summer of 2009, a one-page letter was sent to Congress, signed by one actual climate scientist and six physicists with little or no background in climate science, three of whom were retired. Among other untruths, it contained the sentence, referring to evidence of anthropogenic global warming, “There is no such evidence; it doesn’t exist.” I confronted the sole climate scientist among the authors with this statement, and he confessed that he did not hold that to be the case. Last I checked, lying to Congress was a federal crime.

Emanuel doesn’t mention Richard Lindzen by name, but that is who he means (as is made clear here).  The laughable letter itself is here.  Emanuel is thus calling out his old friend Lindzen, plus William Happer and S. Fred Singer, as liars on climate science.  No argument here.

Kerry Emanuel is author of the terrific book, Divine Wind: The History and Science of Hurricanes.  In 2006 he was named one of Time‘s “Time 100: The People Who Shape Our World.”  Here are more excerpts from his piece:

Much has been made in Academic Questions and elsewhere of the contents and implications of a series of hacked emails; the resulting scandal is now known as “climategate.”  As a climate scientist and member of NAS, I am inclined to agree with those who have described it as the “greatest scientific scandal of our generation”, but the scandal I see is very different from the one that has been presented to NAS members. Climategate is merely the latest in a series of coordinated, politically motivated attacks that represent an aggravated assault on scholarship that should be of concern to every member of NAS who, if they are like me, joined this organization because we were tired of seeing scholarship enslaved to ideology, particularly in academia. NAS has been at the forefront of the battle against such assaults on reason as campus speech codes, affirmative action, deconstruction, and other horrors perpetrated mostly from the political Left. A true test of NAS’s commitment to reason and scholarship is whether it is prepared to take on an attack that this time is mounted largely from the Right.

What is particularly striking about this paragraph is that politically, Emanuel is a conservative.   As the Boston Globe reported in its dreadful piece on Emanuel and Lindzen (see Kerry Emanuel slams media, asserts Lindzen charge in Boston Globe is “pure fabrication”):

Emanuel, who had recently voted for Ronald Reagan, was espousing his views. Lindzen, at that time a registered Democrat, looked up and said, as Emanuel recalls: “You’re to the right of Attila the Hun.”

Emanuel’s NAS piece continues:

What the emails show are a few researchers behaving in a manner unbecoming scientists and gentlemen. The true scandal is the attempt to catapult such behavior into high crime and to dismiss an entire scientific endeavor based on the privately expressed sentiments of a few (a very few) researchers working in an environment of ongoing harassment. At the time of this writing, three separate panels convened in Great Britain, and two investigations conducted by the Pennsylvania State University have cleared the authors of the controversial emails of any serious wrong doing, and with good reason. Meanwhile, the gross mischaracterization of what those emails actually contain continues unabated.

It is helpful first to remember that the emails in question were semi-private correspondence among scientists and that the vast majority of the email shows a high level of diligence and professionalism in conducting and reporting research. The few emails that have been the subject of so much heated rhetoric show that some scientists are occasionally prey to human pitfalls (shocking!). It is simply na¯ve to suppose that we never complain to each other about the unfairness of editors and reviewers and openly wish we could replace them, or that we sometimes wish we could keep data out of the hands of those we know are determined to misuse it. Drop a microphone into a conference social event and one would hear countless conversations along these lines. This is nothing to be proud of, and most of us are wise enough to keep it out of written correspondence, but the idea that this represents a conspiracy among a broad cross-section of researchers is ludicrous.

Much has been made of the so-called efforts of the authors of some of the emails to keep papers out of the peer-reviewed literature. But the conversations in question were about whether to cite certain papers in a report by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). The IPCC performs no research; the decisions in question concerned whether the IPCC should include citations to certain already-published material in their report. There is neither a desire nor an obligation of the IPCC to cite all peer-reviewed publications bearing on the subject, and the writers’ decisions about what and what not to include in the report are based on a judgment of their scientific quality. Far from being blackballed, research that in my view would not normally pass peer review ends up being published out of reviewers’ fears of being accused of blackballing. (The paper that the authors of the emails were discussing did end up being cited in the IPCC report.)

Then there is a discussion about whether a certain editor should be removed from a journal. Such discussions are not uncommon, and I myself have participated in an effort to remove an editor whose professionalism I questioned. It is not only a right but, I would argue, a duty of responsible professionals to seek to replace an editor who consistently underperforms. It is up to the boards of the journals to decide whether such charges have merit.

Emanuel  discusses the “hide the decline” remark and concluded:

The sin of those responsible for simplifying the summary figure pales in comparison to that committed by all those who have sought to elevate this to the level of a grand conspiracy among climate scientists and thereby to discredit a whole field of scholarship.

There are discussions among the authors of the controversial emails about whether to withhold data from some of those requesting it. Such withholding of data is almost never justified, and the email authors must be held accountable for their behavior in this regard. Nevertheless, it is helpful to see their correspondence in the context in which it occurred. It is a matter of record that some of the scientists involved in the email exchanges had been subject to Freedom of Information (FOI) requests of such volume as to rise to the level of harassment. (FOI is, alas, often used in the legal profession as a blunt instrument to bring the opposing side to a standstill; now it is being used to slow down the progress of science.) There is, however, a solution to the problem: simply post all scientific data sets online and make them freely available to everyone. There were two impediments to doing so in this case. First, as a strictly practical matter, much of the instrumental temperature analyses and associated publications date back to the 1980s, before it became routine to digitize the records, and so it is not so easy simply to post it. Second, and far more consequential in the long run, was the decision by certain western European nations to cease to regard environmental data as a public good and treat it as proprietary, forcing others to purchase it and sign non-redistribution commitments. Not only has this greatly slowed scientific progress and created major headaches for researchers, it has also contaminated a culture committed to free and open access to all taxpayer funded environmental data with the notion that environmental data is proprietary and must be shielded from “illegal” uses. The true villains in this story are the governments of the United Kingdom, France, Germany, and a few other nations, who are cheating the taxpayer by charging him once, through taxation, to collect the data and a second time to acquire and use it, and who are thereby impeding the progress of science. We scientists (and indeed all citizens) should be far more active in opposing these policies and in insisting that environmental data once again be treated as a public good; at the same time, we must ourselves do everything in our power to make our data sets and analysis methods (including computer programs) easily and freely available.

The allegation that the researchers actually destroyed data has been shown to be false, but it is repeated endlessly.

Shortly after the climategate emails were published, several factual errors were discovered in the most recent assessment report of the IPCC. These include a permutation of digits in the year in which certain Himalayan glaciers were predicted to vanish, and the citation of a Dutch government report that incorrectly stated the fraction of the Netherlands that is below sea level. While errors of this kind are regrettable, the attempt to leverage them into a sweeping condemnation of the whole report betrays such obvious political skullduggery as to be unworthy of further remark.

The land temperature records compiled by the Climate Research Unit (CRU) of the University of East Anglia, and the computer codes used to analyze them, have been poured over by countless scientists, including some who have been critical of the CRU, and shown to be highly robust. This is only one of many lines of evidence about how and why the planet’s climate is changing. These include independent observational records, such as those of sea surface temperatures, sea level, sea ice extent, and mountain glacier extents, as well as basic theory and computational models, all pointing to anthropogenic climate change over at least the past few decades. The characterization of climate research as a “house of cards” simply does not bear scrutiny and is insulting to the many climate scientists who have devoted their lives to understanding the earth’s climate. It represents an ongoing attempt to politicize scientific research, a process NAS should strongly oppose rather than abet.


A sure way for an up-and-coming young scientist to make a name for himself or herself is to overturn some generally accepted piece of the scientific canon. This is what makes science a largely self-correcting enterprise: no incorrect result can stand long in the face of continuous scrutiny. There are and will always be mavericks in science, and this is a good thing as it combats any herd behavior that might develop. There are serious biologists who do not think that HIV causes AIDS, and until surprisingly recently, there were world-class geologists who refused to accept the theory of plate tectonics. Once in awhile, these mavericks’ ideas prove to have merit. But when extra-scientific organizations embrace maverick views, one can be sure that politics are at play….

Science is not about belief, it is about evidence. Projections of climate change by the IPCC are deeply skeptical, and there is no attempt to hide the large uncertainty of climate forecasts. The possible outcomes, as far as we have been able to discern, range from benign to catastrophic. Ironically, those labeled “skeptics” by the media are not in fact skeptical; they are, on the contrary, quite sure that there is no risk going forward. Meanwhile, those interested in treating the issue as an objective problem in risk assessment and management are labeled “alarmists”, a particularly infantile smear considering what is at stake. This deployment of inflammatory terminology has a distinctly Orwellian flavor. It originates not in laboratories and classrooms, where ideas are the central focus and one hardly ever hears labels applied to researchers, but in the media, the blogosphere, and political think tanks, where polarization attracts attention and/or turns a profit.

But it turns out that there are not enough mavericks in climate science to meet the media’s and blogosphere’s insatiable appetite for conflict. Thus into the arena steps a whole host of charlatans posing as climate scientists. These are a toxic brew of retired physicists, TV weather forecasters, political junkies, media hacks, and anyone else willing to tell an interviewer that he/she is a climate scientist. Typically, they have examined some of the more easily digestible evidence and, like good trial lawyers, cherry-pick that which suits their agendas while attacking or ignoring the rest. Often, they are a good deal more articulate than actual scientists, who usually prefer doing research to honing rhetorical technique. Intelligent readers/viewers should demand to know the actual scientific backgrounds of these posers and recognize that someone with a background in particle physics or botany may in fact know very little about climate science.  Does he/she have a background in atmospheric physics? Can they answer elementary questions about radiative and convective heat transfer, or about the circulation of the ocean and atmosphere?  More precisely, does their expertise actually bear on the particular points they are making? It may sound elitist these days, but there is a point to credentials.

Emanuel then makes the point about the falsehood-filled Lindzen and Singer letter and ends:

The issue of global warming has been used to advance all kinds of agendas, often obnoxious ones, like forced sustainability, high taxes, and so on. The preaching of such agendas in the classroom is a legitimate concern for organizations, like the National Association of Scholars, that are committed to keeping politics out of the classroom and the laboratory. But it is the antithesis of such noble objectives to seek to kill the messenger, in this case, climate science, by attacking the science itself, anymore than it makes sense to combat fascism or racism by attacking the theory of evolution. NAS stands at a crossroads: is it truly committed to upholding standards of objective scholarship and free inquiry untainted by political agendas, or is it merely a particular brand of political passion masquerading as high principle? If the former, it should stop attacking climate science and turn its guns against those who are politicizing it.

You can see his politics in that first sentence.   Personally, I’m not certain what he means by “forced sustainability” — since reality is going to force humans onto a sustainable path sooner or later.  The only question is whether our  political leaders are smart enough to put us voluntarily on the path to sustainability very soon or whether we delay  a couple of decades and get on that path have essentially destroyed a livable climate first.

But it’s great to see Emanuel speaking out on the integrity of climate science and the lack of integrity of the anti-science disinformers.   More scientists should do the same.

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19 Responses to Kerry Emanuel calls Climategate “the latest in a series of coordinated, politically motivated attacks that represent an aggravated assault on scholarship

  1. Wit'sEnd says:

    It’s about time that sickening letter was demolished by a qualified critic. Here’s the email I sent on June 22 to the President of Princeton University and the two signatories who are professors there:

    Dear President Tilghman, Dr. Austin, and Dr. Happer,

    I am writing in reference to this undated letter to which Drs. Austin and Happer are purportedly signatories.

    As a proud Princeton parent, I am dismayed that anyone affiliated with this institution would trample on its prestige, reputation, and academic integrity by being party to this fraudulent folly. I can only hope that the names of Drs. Austin and Happer were attached to this screed without their knowledge.

    Their entire premise of asking the EPA to hold hearings on the CO2 endangerment finding is based on this crucial lie:

    “In our view, particularly with temperatures now falling, the argument for CO2 regulation rests solely on the “validity” of the climate models relied upon by the IPCC and the EPA.”

    Global average temperatures are NOT falling, they are demonstrably, irrefutably rising, as stated by NASA here – reputable, reliable corroboration for which any undergraduate could find in the most trivial search attempt. For Drs. Austin and Happer to state otherwise is pure drivel. It is either unforgivably inept at best, or mendacious at worst.

    I am looking forward to a public statement by them repudiating this dangerous, deliberately misleading political propaganda; or to an announcement that their employment with Princeton has been terminated on grounds of moral turpitude.

    Of what value will my child’s Princeton education be when she inherits a world dominated by climate catastrophe thanks to her elders, those charged with her education, disseminating and perpetrating lies that benefit no one other than energy corporations?

    How incisive was it for the speaker at Class Day, Charlie Gibson, to basically admit that “our” generahtion has abdicated any responsibility for the existential threats we have created – insurmountable debt, increasing income inequality, squandering energy and polluting the Earth’s air, land and water? The hapless graduates and future generations are left to contend with rising seas and global warming likely to render many regions uninhabitable.

    And I might add, from observing the many students I have met, their Princeton education has left them woefully uninformed about the most important challenge facing humanity ever, and thus less prepared than a third-world peasant on a subsistence diet to survive in a rapidly and radically changing world.

    The university’s approach to educating students about the perils of climate change has been wholly inadequate. If history is not to judge your enterprise as nothing more than a sham to prop up the status quo, there must be a fundamental effort to disseminate the facts throughout the curriculum, and professors who lie about the facts must be, at the least, called out and disciplined.


    Gail Zawacki
    Princeton Parent 2010

  2. Mike says:

    There is no law against lying to Congress if you are not under oath. I wonder if Lindzen will ever be asked to testify again. I hope he is.

  3. MarkB says:

    Awesome. Good to see this sort of clear and assertive takedown.

    “Among other untruths, it contained the sentence, referring to evidence of anthropogenic global warming, “There is no such evidence; it doesn’t exist.” I confronted the sole climate scientist among the authors with this statement, and he confessed that he did not hold that to be the case. Last I checked, lying to Congress was a federal crime.”

    If I were to do the bolding of text:

    “The true scandal is the attempt to catapult such behavior into high crime and to dismiss an entire scientific endeavor based on the privately expressed sentiments of a few (a very few) researchers working in an environment of ongoing harassment.”

    I would bold the last bit “in an environment of ongoing harassment.” as this is one of the facts completely absent from media presentation. It was largely lost in the Muir Russell review as well. While a solid report, it didn’t take a look at the actions of the harassers. Kerry also has a thorough subsequent discussion of the issues involving FOI requests and data access.

  4. Tony Sidaway says:

    Thanks for posting this. One niggle: the National Association of Scholars shares initials with a much more famous, more illustrious body, The National Academy of Science. Since the initials appear many times in the article where they are in quotes where Emanuel is addressing his fellow Association members, it’s easy for the reader of this article to miss the context and mistake the body being referred to–particularly non-American readers like myself for whom the initials NAS mean only the famous Academy.

    So perhaps the opening paragraph should take a few words to introduce the Association, which as I understand it is a body with a subscription-based membership that campaigns to keep what it sees as undue political influence off the campus. It is known for its opposition to multiculturalism and affirmative action. “Academic Questions”, referred to above by Emanuel, is the Association’s official journal.

  5. Deborah Stark says:

    Re: Emmanuel’s reference to “forced sustainability”…

    He is characterizing as “forced sustainability” what the professional climate change deniers repeatedly refer to as “big government interference” when said deniers are trying to scare the public with the specters of a carbon tax, skyrocketing utility costs, rationing of electricity, gas, etc. and of course the ever-effective threat of “damage to the economy” should any administration actually succeed in pulling together and giving form to a coherent policy for making the transition to cleaner sources of energy.

    In other words, to the professional deniers, “forced sustainability” and “big government interference” are one and the same and sung to the tune of “Don’t Tread on Me.”

    At some point in the not-too-distant future I am afraid we ARE in fact going to find ourselves “forced” onto a sustainable path because we have simply waited far too long to begin the hard work of actually planning and preparing for the inevitable. The professional deniers will then undoubtedly take every opportunity to say, “We told you so! Big Government Interference!” That’s how frigging perverted these people are.

    Sorry to be so blunt.

    By the way, Kerry Emmanuel also wrote a very succinct, articulate, readable little book called “What We Know About Climate Change” (2007, MIT Press.) It is excellent.

    Thank you as always for your continued hard work, Joe. We appreciate it very much.

  6. mike roddy says:

    People underestimate the hatred that the Far Right feels toward sober academic researchers. During the Inquisition, the Church burned scientists at the stake as heretics. The Nazis rounded up university professors in Krakow, Poland, among other places, and murdered them. Spiro Agnew, Nixon’s veep, used to call them Pointy Headed Professors.

    Today, climate science professors routinely receive death threats, and people like Limbaugh and Morano fantasize about imprisoning and torturing them.

    This has to stop. As the saying goes, first they come for the scientists, and then us. Time to get the courts and the federal government on the case, and for the media to take a stand on protecting both free speech and academic freedom, a fight that has to be ongoing.

    The oil companies have already bought the media, and hijacked the universities by endowing huge research funds, such as Exxon at Stanford and BP at Berkeley. Enough is enough. Give them their money back and tell them to go to hell, where they belong.

  7. John Mashey says:

    re: #2 Mike
    I believe you are incorrect.
    You are thinking of:
    which is perjury.

    You may want to learn about 18USC1001, 4, and 371.
    I suggest reading part of the PDF at this, especially A.14 “Possible Legal Issues”. Check out the relevant parts of the U.S.C., and perhaps consulting a few lawyers. The ones I’ve talked to don’;t think 18USC is a fantasy for the circumstances described.

    18.U.S.C §1001 & 18.U.S.C §4 : Misleading Congress is a felony, as is not reporting it (a, 1), (c, 2) felony (up to 5 years) Misprision of felony (up to 3 years)

    18.U.S.C §371 : Conspiracy to commit felony is also a felony… conspiracy (up to 5 years)
    If I interpret this correctly, an “unfulfilled conspiracy” may not be affected by usual statutes of limitations.

  8. Richard Brenne says:

    Kerry Emanuel’s expertise is hurricanes but also in addition to Jim Hansen, Kevin Trenberth, Susan Solomon and a few others he understands the totality of atmospheric science about as well as anyone. Both of his books referenced above are excellent.

    Kerry’s also a fairly bright guy. When he finished his master’s thesis at MIT at age 23 his advisors said, “This isn’t master’s thesis material” and when Kerry asked what they meant, they said that it was really a doctoral dissertation – here’s your PhD from MIT at 23. As Joe and others can attest, that doesn’t happen every day.

    Joe makes his usual good catch – and for the totality of the most pertinent facts about climate change I’d add Joe to the list in the first paragraph – in pointing out how the term “forced sustainability” is what nature has always found for every species, and always will. Only cheap and abundant fossil fuels have allowed us to so outgrow the carrying capacity of our planet, and that charade is rapidly coming to an end. Sustainability is what nature is certain to find for every species.

    Otherwise Kerry makes brilliant and needed points – he appears to be channeling our recently and sadly departed fellow-traveler, Stephen Schneider.

  9. Peter Mizla says:

    The smearing and accusation from the Denial Army continues unabated.

    The inertia and lack of will by our political leaders continues as well.

    It certainly may predicate the ability for humans to survive as a species.

    The so called ‘Greatness’ of the USA must be challenged at some point- if this ‘great’ democracy allows the world to tip into another dark age.

  10. John says:

    Good on Kerry Emmanuel. I can only imagine his inbox is now flooded with hate mail and death threats.

  11. SecularAnimist says:

    Emanuel wrote: “Climategate is merely the latest in a series of coordinated, politically motivated attacks …”

    It is interesting to note that none of the following words appear anywhere in Emanuel’s article:


    Emanuel opines at length about “a series of coordinated attacks” but conspicuously fails to even mention just exactly who it is that is “coordinating” those attacks.

    “Climategate” is NOT fundamentally a “politically motivated attack”.

    It is a financially motivated attack — motivated by the fossil fuel corporations’ rapacious, relentless, reckless greed for the BILLION DOLLARS PER DAY in profit that they collectively reap from the use of coal, oil and gas.

    It may be that Emanuel’s so-called “conservative” politics blind him to the obvious, overwhelmingly documented FACT that the “aggravated assault on scholarship” that he laments is created, organized, funded, and coordinated by the very same giant corporations who pay various bought-off, phony “conservative” political stooges (including politicians that Emanuel himself apparently supports) to obstruct and delay any action to reduce GHG emissions for as long as they can get away with it.

    How anyone who takes anthropogenic global warming seriously can be proud of having voted for Ronald Reagan — who set back progress towards a renewable energy economy by a generation or two — is utterly beyond me.

  12. SecularAnimist says:

    Richard Brenne wrote: “Sustainability is what nature is certain to find for every species.”

    Or extinction.

  13. bjedwards says:

    SecularAnimist wrote:

    “How anyone who takes anthropogenic global warming seriously can be proud of having voted for Ronald Reagan — who set back progress towards a renewable energy economy by a generation or two — is utterly beyond me.”

    That was HOW long ago? Maybe it would be worth asking Dr. Emanuel for whom voted in the last election.

    Reagan’s era was also a time when Emanuel and other scientists confronted Al Gore when Gore claimed “ALL scientists agree that there is global warming,” a claim Emanuel said – with complete accuracy at the time – was not true.

    The science has advanced exponentially since then and so have climate scientists’ understanding. Are you really surprised that Emanuel and others accept the weight of the scientific evidence and their views also change?

  14. mike roddy says:

    Secular Animist, I agree. When Revkin, for example, says that “political” difficulties block action on climate change, it’s just code for oil and coal company malfeasance. Time to call a spade a spade.
    The Right is just being manipulated- and paid off.

  15. UnReal2r says:

    Let’s stop beating around the bush. The AGW denial cabal is not simply an aggravated attack on scholarship, it is a criminal enterprise.

  16. Kudos to Dr. Emmanuel and to Gail for writing a much-needed letter to Princeton.

    Singer has been on the wrong side of the scientific consensus on:

    1) Second smoke’s link to cancer
    2) DDT
    3) Acid rain
    4) Ozone depletion
    5) Climate change

    It is truly absurd that ANYBODY listens to this guy! In fact, I call him the George Costanza of science. Whatever he says, do the opposite and it will be correct.

    BTW, do not steal that idea. It could be a future blog post. :)

  17. Jim Edelson says:

    I am entirely baffled that all these victims of Climategate have not filed defamation lawsuits. Without a strong offense, the reality community will always be on the defensive.

    Within hours of the NAACP asserting correctly that the Tea Party leadership was not renouncing the racists within their midsts, the threats of defamation lawsuits were flying.

    Where are the punches from the reality community?

  18. Richard Brenne says:

    SecularAnimist (#11) through #17 all make excellent points.

    My gushing about Kerry (although less than the BP gushing), was about the strength and accuracy of his statements Joe quotes. While I agree, SecularAnimist, about Reagan and all that he represents, in this case the fact that Kerry voted for him, while not anything to be proud of, gives further strength to his well-reasoned arguments, because Kerry’s ideology alone might incline him toward another view.

    I’ve found that even the most brilliant people can often be idiots about some things (except for Al Bartlett). I respect Kerry greatly as a climate scientist and to me he’s the go-to guy for hurricanes, but it doesn’t surprise me that he could be politically unsophisticated.

    Similarly, while Freeman Dyson is not my favorite physicist, he might be my favorite contrarian physicist, and his contributions have been many in that area. As Kerry says (I felt he was talking about Dyson), if anyone including any scientist, no matter how brilliant in their own area, doesn’t understand the basics of climate science (and it doesn’t seem to me Dyson does), their opinion is really no more valid than that of anyone else with expertise in an area essentially unrelated to the specifics of atmospheric science.

    I’m hoping to have Dr. Dyson on a panel one day and ask him, “I don’t think Jim Hansen would claim to know more about theoretical physics than you do, so why do you think you know more about atmospheric science than he does, and all other atmospheric scientists do?”

  19. peter whitehead says:

    The political right has associated itself with the twaddle of climate denial because its whole philosophy is based on endless growth, endless resources and a Mad Hatter’s teaparty (what a phrase, I wonder where it could fit in?) view of the world – when the plates are dirty, move on! They can’t cope with the real limitations of the world. Here in the Old World we can see this fits with the 19th Century America we saw in Westerns – Keep moving West, there’ll be new land for farming, new gold to find.
    And then there is a strain of anti-science from extreme religionists. They don’t accept evolution (yet they use fossil fuels – how can they be found if Geology is an error?). They are too busy waiting for the Rapture to care about the real end of the world (as we know it). At least the Amish are consistent – they reject the ideas of the modern world, but don’t use the technology that couldn’t work if science had the wrong model for how the universe works.