James Hansen’s Must-See TED Talk: Starting To Reduce CO2 In 10 Years Is Too Late

It would be immoral to leave these young people with a climate system spiraling out of control.”

by Dan Miller

NASA climate scientist James Hansen gave a talk at the TED conference in Long Beach, CA on February 29th where he laid out the case for taking urgent action to reduce greenhouse emissions.

Dr. Hansen’s talk began by describing his personal journey, originally studying Venus under Prof. James Van Allen and then working at NASA on an instrument to study Venus’ atmosphere.  But after being asked to do some calculations of Earth’s greenhouse effect, Dr. Hansen resigned from the Venus mission to work full time studying Earth’s atmosphere “because a planet changing before our eyes is more interesting and important – its changes will affect all humanity.”

Dr. Hansen and some colleagues published a 1981 paper in Science Magazine that concluded that “observed warming of 0.4C in the prior century was consistent with the greenhouse effect of increasing CO2, — that Earth would likely warm in the 1980s, — and warming would exceed the noise level of random weather by the end of the century.  We also said that the 21st century would see shifting climate zones, creation of drought prone regions in North America and Asia, erosion of ice sheets, rising sea levels, and opening of the fabled Northwest passage.  All of these impacts have since either happened or are now well underway.”

Dr. Hansen went on to explain that, after speaking out for the need for an energy policy that would address climate change, the White House contacted NASA and Dr. Hansen was ordered to not speak to the media without permission.  After informing the New York Times about the situation, the censorship was lifted and Dr. Hansen continued to speak out, justifying his actions with the first line of NASA’s Mission Statement’: “To understand and protect the home planet”.  But there were consequences… the reference to the home planet was soon struck from NASA’s Mission Statement, never to return.

Dr. Hansen then went on to describe some of the recent science, including a detailed look at the Earth’s energy imbalance that was made possible by data from 3000 “Argo” floats that measure ocean temperature at different depths.  Dr. Hansen said that the current imbalance of 0.6 watts/square meter (which does not include the energy already used to cause the current warming of 0.8°C) was equivalent to exploding 400,000 Hiroshima atomic bombs every day, 365 days per year.

Favorite denier myths such as “it’s the Sun” and “CO2 lags temperature” were addressed by Dr. Hansen and shown to be wrong or irrelevant.  He also discussed how amplifying feedbacks in the past took small changes in temperature due to slight changes in the Earth’s orbit and either initiated or ended ice ages.  He then said these same amplifying feedbacks will occur today if we do not stop the warming.  “The physics does not change.”

Besides the impacts that are already occurring, Dr. Hansen said that if we do not stop the warming, we should expect sea levels to rise this century by 1 to 5 meters (3 to 18 feet), extinction of 20 to 50% of species, and massive droughts later this century.  He said that the recent Texas heat wave, Moscow’s heat wave the year before, and the 2003 heat wave in Europe we “exceptional” events that now occur 25 to 50 times more often than just 50 years ago.  Therefore, he concluded, we can say with high confidence that these heat waves were “caused” by global warming.

A key solution to climate change, Dr. Hansen said, is to out a simple, honest price on carbon.  He proposed a “Fee and Dividend” approach where an increasing fee on CO2 is paid by fossil fuel companies and 100% of the proceeds are distributed to every legal resident.  Besides lowering carbon emissions, this will also stimulate innovation and create millions of jobs.

Dr. Hansen said that if we wait 10 years to begin reducing greenhouse gas emissions, we will need to reduce them at a rate of 15%/year to stabilize the climate.  This, he said, would be “difficult and expensive — perhaps impossible.”

Dr. Hansen referred to his grandchildren and said “It would be immoral to leave these young people with a climate system spiraling out of control.”

Dan Miller is Managing Director of The Roda Group, a cleantech venture capital company.  He is also a speaker and advocate for taking urgent action to address climate change.  You can learn more about Dan at

45 Responses to James Hansen’s Must-See TED Talk: Starting To Reduce CO2 In 10 Years Is Too Late

  1. caerbannog says:

    Note to deniers who might want to make fun of Dr. Hansen’s floppy hat.

    Unlike yours, Dr. Hansen’s hat is not made of tin-foil.

  2. Sasparilla says:

    Its always good to hear Dr. Hansen speak, always good information to hear.

    So…wait 10 years (2020-ish) before starting and we’ll have to reduce emissions at 15% a year….yes those rates while possible are probably practically impossible (short of war time footing which is hard to imagine the US doing).

    The GOP and News Corp definitely want to take us to 2020 (and beyond) without doing anything on climate change and have put the political and propaganda stops in place to make that happen.

    As we wait longer and longer to take action – another danger starts to rear its head and that is the action required starts to become so immediately large, so disruptive that it just becomes more unlikely to be done as time goes on (this would be outside of the industry and political forces currently preventing action which would be expected to continue).

    How in the world do we crack this nut that is the GOP blockade on climate action (from the Koch front groups principally) during this decade? (just Dems won’t get the job done as we saw with both house majorities several years ago)

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  4. Mike Roddy says:

    Hansen says at the end of his talk that he has failed to communicate the science of climate change enough to change public opinion or drive change, and that he needs help.

    Plenty of us are trying. Joe Romm here is a good example, along with McKibben, Mann, and many others. There are also some great bloggers at ground level- Tenney, Gail, Eli, and John, for instance.

    The problem is that the average American can tell you a lot more about Kim Kardashian than Jim Hansen. If you bring up global warming, the response is likely to be that it’s an abstract problem, or that the science “isn’t settled”.

    Our political leaders are hopeless, though there are signs of life from people like Franken and Inslee. The majority are attorneys or businessmen, with little or no interest in science. The other problem, of course, is corruption on a massive scale.

    The biggest culprit is the media that actually reaches the American public: network and cable programming, daily newspapers, and magazines. So far the deniers have won, and our media is passive or worse, while BAU leads to disaster.

    I have met plenty of people who are curious and caring, through blogs like this one. Similar people must still be in the employ of media companies: they cannot all be indifferent or cowardly.

    We need a full court press in the media. This could mean occupying the New York Times, the networks, and even radio station headquarters. The media has a responsibility to inform the public, and this failure has had the largest consequences of all. They need to be held accountable, or a new major media company must replace them. Since an awakening is unlikely, people like Dan Miller need to round up the capital for a new media company. We would then have a chance, and alert citizens would not only be found among New Yorker and Climate Progress readers.

  5. Lou Grinzo says:

    While I don’t agree with Hansen on every detail (his tax plan is naive would not be as effective as a cap-and-trade with full per capita refunds, for example), I can’t praise him enough for his work and activism.

    This is a man who Gets It, right down to the DNA level, someone who thinks in systems and systems of systems, not their artificially isolated components, connects the dots, ala Lester Brown and that Joe Romm fellow, and then speaks the truth about where that analysis leads.

    We need more people like Hansen. And McKibben. And Gilding. And Santer and Mann and Schmidt and Cullen and Archer and Brown and dozens of others in their category. A LOT more.

    This is the challenge I throw out to everyone reading this site: Raise your game. Educate yourself about the basic climate science, the ecological knock-on effects of warming, and even (dare I say it) the mechanisms at our disposal for effecting the kind of public policy change we so desperately need. Then assess your talents and interests and resources, determine how you can contribute, and take action. Typing at each other on blogs does us very little good, but writing letters to editors, giving presentations to your local enviro group or in schools, becoming more politically active, etc. all have the potential to start and foster movement in the right direction.

  6. LGCarey says:

    A 15% per annum reduction isn’t just difficult, it is impossible in any world remotely similar to the one we’re familiar with. The collapse of the Soviet empire’s economy resulted in only a 5% per annum reduction in their CO2 emissions, year on year over only a period of 10 years – and even that required a chaotic complete ecomomic collapse that had horrendous effects on their economy and population.

  7. Rob Honeycutt says:

    This is probably the best talk I’ve seen Hansen give. He’s not a gifted speaker but what he lacks in stage presence he certainly makes up for with a compelling argument.

    Dr Hansen, many many thanks for all you do. Just know there are lots of us out there who are backing you up in this fight to save the future of our planet.

  8. M Tucker says:

    The video paints a very clear picture of the immense threat and should be included in all secondary school curricula on global warming. It is a shame that protecting the home planet is no longer part of NASA’s mission.

    “We owe it to our children and grandchildren.”

    You would think this should motivate all parents to pressure congress and the President to do something. But, even a well educated man like President Obama, who is definitely concerned about the future of our planet given his efforts to stop nuclear proliferation, seems to be more concerned about name calling than the dire threat of global warming when it comes to the future of his children.

  9. Dan Miller says:


    Fee and Dividend is much better than Cap & Trade or Cap and Dividend. It is simple, honest, transparent, and appeals to conservatives. It is the only way to put a large fee on CO2 that the public would accept. It would stimulate the economy and create millions of jobs. Also, it is the only system that would work internationally. Countries with a carbon fee will impose import tariffs on countries without a fee (the WRO allows this) so countries protect their industries and encourage (i.e., force) other countries to adopt a carbon fee.

  10. John Tucker says:

    I would evaluate my positions carefully as so far with the help of the mainstream environmental movements (minus the dubious benefits of natural gas) we have probably managed to increase emissions lately.

    Fear after Fukushima to push up carbon emissions

    Italy and Switzerland have decided to abandon plans for future plants…

    …All told, that is nearly a billion-tonne jolt to the planet’s climate by 2020, and more beyond. That is small compared with global CO2 emissions – likely to be more than 400 billion tonnes in the same period. ( )

    But most of all without a carbon tax or restrictive carbon market, including natural gas, significant reductions are probably nearly impossible. Thats one conclusion I haven’t seen anyone get around.

  11. James says:

    Hansen live on a farm in Pennsylvania. In the future this will be as far South as you can survive. Lovelock lives on a farm. Prince Charles is farming. Obama bought a farm in Northern Illinois. As real estate prices collapse, farmland is increasing 15-25% per year. Current price $20k per acre is astronomical compared to economic value (currently). Alaska real estate is booming. What is the conclusion? That it’s too late already for mankind. Personally, get North, get a patch of earth, and buckle up. It will be a rough ride.

  12. MapleLeaf says:

    A powerful and compelling talk by Hansen, possibly one of his best.

    Note that he received a standing ovation at the end.

    In stark contrast, we today have radical elements like Craig Loehle (with the help of Anthony Watts) claiming that “Climate Change Impacts In The USA are Already [NOT] Happening” and Roy Spencer claiming that “A Little Pollution Saves Lives”.

    The delusion and paranoia amongst deniers is stronger than ever it seems, and they have no problem lying.

  13. Solar Jim says:

    See Green – Rainbow Coalition candidate for President Jill Stein.

  14. Paul Magnus says:

    Best Jim has given for the public. The guy deserve a Nobel.

    You can tell a good Ted… The time seems to be much longer than the 18 mins.

  15. Dick Smith says:

    It’s hard to improve on the advice at the end of Joe’s book, Hell and High Water.

    “Get educated. Then, get political.”

  16. Dick Smith says:

    By his own admission, once upon a time, Hansen WAS naive. No more. His support for fee/dividend is not intellectual purism. It’s politically smart. Cap/trade is going nowhere–and has too many loopholes to achieve emissions reductions.

  17. WyrdWays says:

    Sad to say that, however well intentioned rational or even impassioned, the pleas for action are – made either by scientists like Hansen or politicos like Jill Stein – the trenches have been dug. Climate change is now just another partisan issue, to be lobbed back and forward over the US political schism.

    The only way this situation will change is when the warming globe delivers a serious wake-up call to main-street Americans. That’s why the situation is so desperately sad. Only a disaster will reframe the debate.

    But by then, it might be too late.

  18. Rabid Doomsayer says:

    Dark as they are, James Hansen’s views of the future are not the most bleak. Do we really want to find out if we can push mankind past the brink of extinction?

  19. WyrdWays says:

    Agreed; Cap and Trade just creates an artificial market, too open to abuse or clumsy mechanics. The price of carbon on Europe’s Emission Trading Scheme is a joke at 8 EUR ($11).

    To truly reflect the social cost of carbon, we need numbers nearer $30 to $60. Fee and Dividend offers a politically clever way to put those external costs onto the guilty parties – the fossil fuel industry – while avoiding major pain for poorer consumers.

  20. WyrdWays says:

    The benefits of natural gas are entirely illusory. Once the leakage rates of natural gas (= GHG methane) thru wells/distribution networks are included (which could be anywhere between 4% and 10%), natural gas is worse than coal for short-term climate forcing. Fracking shale gas is likely worse.

    Every time someone says ‘gas is cleaner than coal’ it makes me wince – especially when its guys like Obama, who could have done something SERIOUS about climate change. There are a lot of hands being held over ears, not to wanting to hear, and so make hard choices.

  21. Peter says:

    We are on the verge of the greatest demographic reversal in American History- I now tell people that living south of NYC, Chicago, Minneapolis is a huge risk. Living west of the coastal ranges in California and the Cascades in the PNW is an equally unwise decision.

  22. jEREMY says:

    Thank you for the post and looks as if we will at least wait until 2020 by the climate accord. Seems the haves want to keep the status quo and the have nots want to join the haves without going in a new direction. Our accounting is too simplistic to accord for our actions. Adding 2 more billion humans to the Earth will just bring more hardship to a difficult situation.

  23. We need a sitcom to do for deniers what All in the Family’s Archie Bunker did for bigots. Make it part of the popular culture to do the right thing for our client.

  24. Felix Kramer says:

    In addition to this one, TED hosted another climate-related 18-minute talk, “The Earth is Full,” by Paul Gilding, former Greenpeace CEO, advisor to businesses, and author of the recent “The Great Disruption.” . The one-two punch didn’t have quite as much impact on TEDsters as I and others had hoped; we hope for more in the coming months and next year.

    And for more on the “Fee and Dividen” approach (a derivative of Senator Cantwell’s CLEAR Act), see, among other places, and links from there including

  25. Peter says:

    Correction- I meant to say EAST of the Coastal ranges and Cascades.

  26. Spike says:

    The guy’s quiet dignity always impresses me as does his resilience to being demonised. His track record speaks for itself. I wish we had a few like him in the UK.

  27. prokaryotes says:

    This speech again, a major wake up call, for the species which branched once from the ape tree..

  28. prokaryotes says:

    What can you do?

    Sign in to your You Tube account and liek this video, add it to a related playlist and post the link on facebook, twitter, Google – everywhere…

    Then invite all your neighbours and mae a presentation (if you have the capability).
    You want get a better on point message about our environmental setup and “important” what we can do about it.

    Sitting it out is not an option, already we face a situation which affects every single species of our planet. And it threaten the very survival abilities of each of us.

    We have to act today to prevent the worst case scenarios, which would lead to the extinction of the human species.

    Spread the message and stop emitting Co2!

  29. James says:

    It’s too late. If we stop emitting all CO2 now, we will still get to 2-3 deg C above baseline. Still meters of sea level rse, still desertification, famine etc. Forget social “good”. Prepa yourselves.

  30. PJMD says:

    Can anyone confirm Dr Hansen’s assertions that the planetary energy imbalance is equivalent to 400,000 Hiroshima size bombs every day? My physics is way to rusty and this is an absolutely astounding number, sure to attract a challenge.

  31. J4zonian says:

    “The GOP and News Corp definitely want to take us to 2020 (and beyond) without doing anything on climate change ”

    So does the Democractic “leadership”, including the president.

  32. Dan Miller says:


    Here’s the calculation. I suggested this to Jim and I’m glad he used it!

    Little Boy (Hiroshima bomb) ~ 63 x 10**12 joules
    1 bomb/day = 63 x 10**12 joules/day ~ 7.3 x 10**8 joules/s (watts)
    (86,400 sec/day)

    Area Earth = 5.1 x 10**14 square meters
    0.6 watts/m2 x 5.1 x 10**14 m2 = 3 x 10**14 watts

    ratio = (3 x 10**14)/(7.3 x 10**8) = 400,000 Hiros

    if a Hiro is defined as one bomb per day

    But note that Jim is only considering the CURRENT energy imbalance (0.6 W/m^2). If you consider how much extra energy humans have pumped into the Earth system by burning fossil fuels, etc., than the value is around 1.6W/m^2 and the equivalent number of bombs/day is more than 1 million. That extra 1 w/m^2 has gone into warming the Earth by 0.8C.

  33. Solar Jim says:

    Thanks Dan, nice work. Talk about nuking the planet! Instead of nuclear winter (from dust and destruction) we will have nuclear summer.

    By the way, note that about 23,000 Gigawatts are going into ice melt (8% of total). This is about five times the electric generating capacity on earth (if my calculations are correct).

    Fossils are “fuels” for fools. Too bad we’re all on the same armed madhouse spaceship.

  34. prokaryotes says:

    You cannot “on your own”, prepare for this – to fix the situation. We have to radically make a paradigm shift and cut all fossil usage- by all means. Then we have to start and suck the Co2 back out of the air.

    If we start “preparing on your own”, which would mean to build an arc or become your own food generator, we might survive a bit longer but wouldn’t help to change the outcome. I think there might be soon more extreme events which will make many humans very afraid and then we might start. But if these large impacts take a bit to long to occur, it might be to late.

    Also these events can and will unleash total chaos.

    Maybe you prepare with a small community and everything is there, but then a bit later the ocean turns acidic, the food chain breaks. ALso then you have problems which happen somewhere else but affect you, like radioactive fallout.

    So this really is a small grade we walking..

  35. prokaryotes says:

    Most of this (90%?) goes into the ocean, the big energy battery. Then particulates/aerosols mask some of the warmth when scattering some of the other incoming radiation back to space. But later these particulates (soot) settle on light surfaces and change albedo.

  36. prokaryotes says:

    The planetary energy imbalance is equivalent to 400,000 Hiroshima size bombs (Hiro’s) every day..

    The Math:
    Little Boy (Hiroshima bomb) ~ 63 x 10**12 joules
    1 bomb/day = 63 x 10**12 joules/day ~ 7.3 x 10**8 joules/s (watts) (86,400 sec/day)

    Area Earth = 5.1 x 10**14 square meters
    0.6 watts/m2 x 5.1 x 10**14 m2 = 3 x 10**14 watts

    Ratio = (3 x 10**14)/(7.3 x 10**8) = 400,000 Hiros

    This if a Hiro is defined as one bomb per day.

    But note that this is only considering the CURRENT energy imbalance (0.6 W/m^2). If you consider how much extra energy humans have pumped into the Earth system by burning fossil fuels, etc., than the value is around 1.6W/m^2 and the equivalent number of bombs/day is more than 1 million. That extra 1 w/m^2 has gone into warming the Earth by 0.8C.

  37. Barry Saxifrage says:

    Actually if we stop emitting CO2 now we end up where we are today at 0.9C. That is because the biosphere will remove CO2 to bring us into energy balance at around 0.9C.

    If we stop our aerosols now as well we rise over a decade to 1.3C and then fall over a century back to 0.9C. That is according to a recent peer-reviewed study. Other climate scientists have said the same thing to me when asked.

    But we aren’t going to stop emitting CO2 right away so it is just an academic exercise. We are heading to 5C or 6C right now.

  38. Leif says:

    To take those numbers one step further Dan, I calculated that one million bombs a day is ~1 Hiro for each 8 mile radius circle on Earth!* each day! Look around folks. That energy as you might guess also evaporates extra water that increases the water vapor in the atmosphere. (Leave a pot boil on the stove and your windows will steam.) How much extra water vapor does that 4% represent? Another commentator on CP did the math and came up with ~1.5X the volume of water contained in Lake Superior* just looking for proper conditions to condense out as extra rain or even snow in the winter. ( Anyone notice extra rain or snow in the recent years in your area?) Just because Earth’s surface might get deluged with extrema rain or snow someplace, (Pakistan, Australia, Mid West), does not mean that the 1.5XLS is gone for a while and you can breath easy, no that is the new normal folks.

    Now here is the scary part. Take 1.million Hiros/day and start say 50 years ago with zero extra to today’s million and you will find ~10 additional Hiros/day crowding in someplace.

    * These numbers have not been peer reviewed to my knowledge, feel free to check them.

  39. Irv Beiman says:

    I ask you to consider how to more quickly and effectively create a HUMAN SYSTEM TIPPING POINT. Possibly through more innovative use of social media [facebook, twitter, etc].

    The Chinese language for CRISIS combines two different characters to mean: OPPORTUNITY BLOWING ON A DANGEROUS WIND.
    That is the case NOW, with the Arctic Methane Emergency.
    I believe this can represent an OPPORTUNITY by using it as a lever, a “burning platform”, to create awareness, then understanding, then motivation for action, and then viral and increasing use of social media to create a tipping point that drives political change in the desired direction:
    The FIRST step in the change process begins with increasing AWARENESS of a critically important issue, which is the Arctic Methane Emergency = AME. This can be done thru all the channels of social media. That is, of course, insufficient, but it can serve as a catalyst to get the issue closer to the center of an increasing number of human radar screens [mindshare]
    The SECOND STEP is to increase the collective UNDERSTANDING of what AME is and the different factors that are causing it. The information about this can be found at the website of the ARCTIC CLIMATE EMERGENCY: . I downloaded a PDF file from that site after going into it fairly deeply that explains the system dynamics and proposes what to do about it. [I have no idea whether their proposed solutions make sense or might work, but it’s “emergency” aspect of it that can be used as a lever for creating change. I believe this PDF could be used to help a vastly larger number of people begin to understand the “system dynamics” of the arctic, which could then help them better understand climate change in general, and become more interested in understanding it better. The natural thought from most people that arises, of course, is” What can I do about it? I’m helpless and powerless.” Increased understanding sets the stage for the third phase in the process of creating a human system tipping point
    As understanding arises, the THIRD phase in creating a change in the HUMAN SYSTEM begins to also arise, which is the MOTIVATION for action. This step is critical, because feelings of helplessness & powerlessness must be overcome. In more than 200 cases of successful organizational change on two continents [US and CHINA] over a thirty year period I have personally experienced, this is the critical step for CREATING A HUMAN SYSTEM TIPPING POINT. A CRITICAL MASS must be reached of enough people who come to understand and believe that they are collectively on a burning platform [metaphorically and umm, literally…], that they feel compelled to do something, but aren’t sure what actions to take. At this stage, there need to be simple controllable actions [controllable = I can do this, I am in control of it] that an increasing number of people can take. Social media [Facebook et al] provide the channels for controllable actions by an increasing number of people. I am starting a class project in China with ~40+ chinese students using social media IN China [in compliance with gov’t regulations] and 10+ foreign students [probably using Facebook] to share information about climate change. While I am new to social media, this has the potential to create a “buzz”. The “buzz’ precedes two critical stages of action.
    This is where more people begin talking about it, emailing about it, using social media to chat about it, using the internet to read about it and continue to increase their understanding which creates a POSITIVE FEEDBACK LOOP for MORE ACTION. As the critical mass of human consciousness, motivation and intention rises, that can be guided to for Strategic Focus, the fifth phase…
    This is where the action begins to focus on that which is strategically relevant for responding to the threat, the burning platform, which in this case is the ARCTIC METHANE EMERGENCY [ = AME], or others more knowledgeable than I might choose a different focus. After reviewing more than 2000 articles on climate change and responses to it, and organizing that information into more than 200 folders on my hard disk, I have developed several STRATEGY MAPS that identify a set of critical variables for focus.
    See and the strategy maps dated 2011, 2010, and 2008 for templates at city and national/global levels. There are also other published articles on that site. When I have time, I will update the site to include more detailed information about strategy execution for the most critical issue[s] facing humanity, based on my continuing monitoring of climate change information sources.

    I encourage you to follow the facebook page: Arctic Methane Emergency Group and to share this information within your network(s), in whatever form you may be comfortable doing so.
    The Journey Continues…

  40. Irv Beiman says:

    click this link for a Declaration of Emergency re what’s happening now in the Arctic:

  41. Raul M. says:

    once heard rumor of the acceptable business as usual response to AGW, it went that the leader wanted his son to be a leader too so he couldn’t acknowledge any global warming effects from societies ways and especially his own ways because it would be a conflict of interests.
    I don’t know the evolution of the reasoning but as time goes the son would be near retirement age and certainly the global warming is harder to ignore.
    Maybe even the son has started to notice that standing in the rain cursing the weather is well…

  42. Raul M. says:

    My point being, business as usual depends on the weather and overall is the climate.
    It shouldn’t be just taken for granted.
    And yes there does seem to be biblical inference about taking grace for granted.

  43. Indulis says:

    Hey I think I might have started the “nukes per day” measurement system in Dec 2010 at Anyway, it is a good meme even if I didn’t!

  44. PJMD says:

    Totally agree. The world is now so wired that there is no good reason to fail to motivate the human population. Take for example this amazing 30 minute call to action to catch Joseph Kony, the child butcher of the Congo:
    If we could harness that kind of passion we would make more rapid progress.

  45. Snorre says:

    I would actually recommend AGW-deniers to move WEST of the Coastal ranges and Cascades… :)